From: "J. Hawke" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: LotR's RPG future? Date: 13 Apr 2000 18:47:24 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.90.193.132 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.alt.net!ycsi.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17159 I apologize if this isn't an appropriate forum for this topic (the FAQ indiciates that it might be ok). If it is not, I will refrain from posting such things in the future. I heard recently that I.C.E. lost their license to produce Middle Earth roleplaying game products. Is this true? If so, is anyone aware of any official or unofficial plans for the Tolkien estate to allow other companies to pick up a similar license in the near future? I live in an area where I never had the opportunity to purchase any of the Middle Earth supplements, so I don't even know if I was missing out on a good thing. It sure seems like -- especially with the movies coming up -- it would be a shame to permanently lose LotR for gaming purposes and for someone not to cash in on the opportunity with a good, quality product that was true to the original stories. I've tried a lot of the popular gaming systems in the hope of finding one with the right LotR "feel", but I've never found one that fit very well canonically without re-writing the whole game. - J. ###### From: "Neil Anderson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:01:45 -0300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <38f618bd$0$20916@wodc7nh6.news.uu.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.172.238.210 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 955652285 20916 199.172.238.210 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17139 J. Hawke wrote in message news:8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132... > I apologize if this isn't an appropriate forum for this topic (the FAQ > indiciates that it might be ok). If it is not, I will refrain from posting > such things in the future. > > I heard recently that I.C.E. lost their license to produce Middle Earth > roleplaying game products. Is this true? If so, is anyone aware of any > official or unofficial plans for the Tolkien estate to allow other companies > to pick up a similar license in the near future? I live in an area where I > never had the opportunity to purchase any of the Middle Earth supplements, > so I don't even know if I was missing out on a good thing. > > It sure seems like -- especially with the movies coming up -- it would be a > shame to permanently lose LotR for gaming purposes and for someone not to > cash in on the opportunity with a good, quality product that was true to the > original stories. I've tried a lot of the popular gaming systems in the hope > of finding one with the right LotR "feel", but I've never found one that fit > very well canonically without re-writing the whole game. > Yep, it is true. ICE lost the license sometime last year - I think it even may have been September 22nd, or some other suitably important Middle-earth date. Let's hope that the license is granted to someone else real soon. It seems likely - too good an opportunity to miss with all the film hype over the next year and a half. Shameless plug while on the subject for Other Hands http://otherhands.com/index.html the gaming magazine for Middle-earth Neil Anderson ###### From: "J. Hawke" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Date: 13 Apr 2000 19:31:00 GMT Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8d579k$8sg$0@63.90.193.132> References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> <38f618bd$0$20916@wodc7nh6.news.uu.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.90.193.132 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news.alt.net!ycsi.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17158 "Neil Anderson" wrote... > Yep, it is true. ICE lost the license sometime last year - I > think it even may have been September 22nd, or some > other suitably important Middle-earth date. Let's hope that > the license is granted to someone else real soon. It seems > likely - too good an opportunity to miss with all the film > hype over the next year and a half. Well, allow me to chime back in with a "I hope they don't give it to Wizards of the Coast". I don't personally have anything against WotC and I've been playing AD&D for more than twenty years (it's the closest to LotR I've found yet still woefully off-target), but this whole 3rd Edition D&D business on top of the fact that they were recently awarded the Star Wars RPG license after West End lost it wouldn't sit well with me. I would prefer to see the license awarded to a company who can actually devote a major portion of their time and resources to LotR in order to give it the attention and the treatment it deserves. I would really hate to see it pop-up as a half-assed, minor "campaign setting supplement" to 3rd Edition D&D or something similar when it could be so much more. Thanks for your response and the information! *keeps fingers crossed for something good* ###### From: echoota@aol.com (EChoota) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Apr 2000 04:34:51 GMT References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000415003451.25548.00001783@ng-ff1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17201 Let's hope someone picks it up and does a good job. I'd like to see a system that pushed the whole epic quality of the books, something that the rolemaster system was too technical and detailed to properly invoke. It was always fun rolling those crit tables but the magic system was woefully inadequate to evoke Tolkien. We would often joke, after reading the types of spells that the system allowed Elrond to cast, that he held in rivendel some vast organ and limb bank to compesate for the brutal crit tables. I've often toyed with the idea of using the storyteller system (vampire, etc.) for a MERP game. I like the balanced emphasis of physical, social and intellectual traits over the traditional physical centric perspective of characteristics. Also other components like willpower and the discipline type powers would help adapting to tolkiens worldview better than rolemasters. Elves in particular are difficult to pull off with the role playing systems simply because everyone wants to be them because they have all sorts of obvious advantages, however to properly ROLEplay one it would require a degree of alieness that I haven't seen any player attempt to approach. They aren't supposed to be these ambitious superhumans, rather they are supposed to have a radically different worldview that speaks of their imortality. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Date: 16 Apr 2000 00:01:28 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 99 Message-ID: <6uln2fnhvr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> <20000415003451.25548.00001783@ng-ff1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 955836091 769 10.0.3.2 (15 Apr 2000 22:01:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Apr 2000 22:01:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17226 echoota@aol.com (EChoota) writes: > Let's hope someone picks it up and does a good job. Or given the present situation with roleplaying firma and the emergence of the Internet, perhaps we should put our hopes on some player-made system constructed and distributed via the Net. Sort of like FUDGE [1] is. Perhaps even use FUDGE as rule set, as they link or even publish players world adaptions (and even home rule extensions). [1] http://www.io.com/~sos/fudge.html > I'd like to see a system > that pushed the whole epic quality of the books, That would be nice. > something that the rolemaster > system was too technical and detailed to properly invoke. Actually the problem is not technicality, but rather an "world simulator" which simply isn't MEs world. > rolling those crit tables but the magic system was woefully > inadequate to evoke Tolkien. Exactly. Actually the group I am in plays Runequest but with MERP scenarios instead of Glorantha ones. The magic allways is totally non-tolkienite (damn-it, our Noldor magician has a "flying" spell, totally non fitting). > We would often joke, after reading the types of spells that the > system allowed Elrond to cast, that he held in rivendel some vast organ and > limb bank to compesate for the brutal crit tables. In RuneQuest it is not just the spells. Even the fighting is so dangerous, that when our human magician left (his player emigrated to Australia) our Dunadan player promply dropped his character (so we lost both humans) for the above Noldor. He did this because we _all_ wanted an new magician (alternative would have been dropping my Mirkwood Elven hunter, but the RQ magic rules are too complicated for me (beginner roleplayer)). > I've often toyed with the idea ... of making ME into an scenario for an existing system. Been there, but not done it due to lack of time (and being too new to roleplaying and so not knowing enough systems to choose one). > of using the storyteller system (vampire, etc.) > for a MERP game. I like the balanced emphasis of physical, social and > intellectual traits over the traditional physical centric perspective of > characteristics. Also other components like willpower and the discipline type > powers would help adapting to tolkiens worldview better than rolemasters. Sounds interesting. Do you know an website with an decent description of the storyteller system? The small text on Vampire that I found suggests an system with small points numbers (so D12 or 2D6 or 3D6?). > Elves in particular are difficult to pull off with the role playing systems > simply because everyone wants to be them because they have all sorts of obviou s > advantages, Which would need to be offset with disadvantages which actually fit the way Tolkiens Elves are. But how does one quantise such things (say low on aggression, long on reflection on situations, quietness) and then how does one bring them into the players behaviour (when would one throw on any of those?). > however to properly ROLEplay one it would require a degree of > alieness that I haven't seen any player attempt to approach. They aren't > supposed to be these ambitious superhumans, rather they are supposed to have a > radically different worldview that speaks of their imortality. I suppose they simply need the right kind of player who can put himself into the mind set (or an close enough simile) of an tolkienite Elf. That is what I am at the moment doing, as I am designing the rules and background for the new Elven subgroup in a LARP group (that is where I come from) I am in (a lot easier job, as we only have to specify behaviours, not dice-and-simulation-calculate stuff). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: "Paul Shenton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> <38f618bd$0$20916@wodc7nh6.news.uu.net> <8d579k$8sg$0@63.90.193.132> Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:47:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.140.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 956335658 24.64.140.24 (Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:47:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:47:38 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17565 "J. Hawke" wrote in message news:8d579k$8sg$0@63.90.193.132... > "Neil Anderson" wrote... > > Yep, it is true. ICE lost the license sometime last year - I > > think it even may have been September 22nd, or some > > other suitably important Middle-earth date. Let's hope that > > the license is granted to someone else real soon. It seems > > likely - too good an opportunity to miss with all the film > > hype over the next year and a half. > > Well, allow me to chime back in with a "I hope they don't give it to Wizards > of the Coast". > > I don't personally have anything against WotC and I've been playing AD&D for > more than twenty years (it's the closest to LotR I've found yet still > woefully off-target), but this whole 3rd Edition D&D business on top of the > fact that they were recently awarded the Star Wars RPG license after West > End lost it wouldn't sit well with me. > > I would prefer to see the license awarded to a company who can actually > devote a major portion of their time and resources to LotR in order to give > it the attention and the treatment it deserves. I would really hate to see > it pop-up as a half-assed, minor "campaign setting supplement" to 3rd > Edition D&D or something similar when it could be so much more. > > Thanks for your response and the information! > > *keeps fingers crossed for something good* > I agree...keep it out of the hands of WotC. They seem to have some bizarre new age agenda compounded with a cutesy anime style to much of what they are doing. I think it is an appeal to the lowest denominator phenomenon...anything to make a buck. I played AD&D as well. It was great when Gary Gygax was the sole controlling mind behind it. Now it is a series of repetitive supplements, all designed to garner more cash. ICE had an excellent version of Middle Earth Role Playing. Granted, it was not always faithful to Tolkien's work, but it was an excellent role playing system. Fortunately, they still produce their own role playing game "Rolemaster", of which the rules are similar to MERP, but much expanded. It can be easily adapted to play in a Middle Earth setting. It is a pity ICE lost the license. Paul. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:10:54 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3901C0FE.B0AAF50D@mappi.helsinki.fi> References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> <20000415003451.25548.00001783@ng-ff1.aol.com> <6uln2fnhvr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: shebekki.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 956416300 28328 128.214.189.31 (22 Apr 2000 15:11:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2000 15:11:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17588 Neil Franklin wrote: >snip > > Elves in particular are difficult to pull off with the role playing systems > > simply because everyone wants to be them because they have all sorts of obviou > s > > advantages, > > Which would need to be offset with disadvantages which actually fit > the way Tolkiens Elves are. But how does one quantise such things (say > low on aggression, long on reflection on situations, quietness) and > then how does one bring them into the players behaviour (when would > one throw on any of those?). Of course the eelves should have advantages. The first age Noldor were surely more powerful than the humans. And they weren't quiet or low on aggression. But a good roleplayer doesn't allways want the most powerful character in the group. All right I have played a 105 level Noldo Mage-Fighter who carried Anguirel. But still. > > however to properly ROLEplay one it would require a degree of > > alieness that I haven't seen any player attempt to approach. They aren't > > supposed to be these ambitious superhumans, rather they are supposed to have a > > radically different worldview that speaks of their imortality. > > I suppose they simply need the right kind of player who can put > himself into the mind set (or an close enough simile) of an tolkienite > Elf. Yep >snip Tamim ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Date: 22 Apr 2000 23:19:07 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Message-ID: <6u3dodltpw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> <20000415003451.25548.00001783@ng-ff1.aol.com> <6uln2fnhvr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3901C0FE.B0AAF50D@mappi.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 956438349 351 10.0.3.2 (22 Apr 2000 21:19:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 2000 21:19:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17604 Tamim Khawaja writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > Elves in particular are difficult to pull off with the role playing systems > > > simply because everyone wants to be them because they have all sorts of obvious > > > advantages, > > > > Which would need to be offset with disadvantages which actually fit > > the way Tolkiens Elves are. But how does one quantise such things (say > > low on aggression, long on reflection on situations, quietness) and > > then how does one bring them into the players behaviour (when would > > one throw on any of those?). > Of course the eelves should have advantages. The first age Noldor were > surely more powerful than the humans. Definitely. Particularily Feanorans :-). > And they weren't quiet or low on > aggression. I was here actually refering to 3rd age Elves as seen in LoTR (which are the ones in most ICE/MERP material, which this thread started out as). Particularly my Mirkwood Sindar gets played that way. > But a good roleplayer doesn't allways want the most powerful character > in the group. A _good_ one, yes. But there are an awfull lot of bad ones. Munchkins. Of course they should not play ME, but rather take some Slash&Hack world. Our group does a few rounds of Paranoia to act out such aggression every half year. > All right I have played a 105 level Noldo Mage-Fighter who carried > Anguirel. Sorry that I do not know what a "105 level" is. The RQ system used by us is level-less. Rather every character has a set of attributes that grow with use/experience. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: LotR's RPG future? Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 03:57:02 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 59 Message-ID: <39024A5E.94F2235B@mappi.helsinki.fi> References: <8d54ns$3v8$0@63.90.193.132> <20000415003451.25548.00001783@ng-ff1.aol.com> <6uln2fnhvr.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3901C0FE.B0AAF50D@mappi.helsinki.fi> <6u3dodltpw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: voipulla.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 956451472 1860 128.214.182.134 (23 Apr 2000 00:57:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Apr 2000 00:57:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17620 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Tamim Khawaja writes: > > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > > > Elves in particular are difficult to pull off with the role playing systems > > > > simply because everyone wants to be them because they have all sorts of obvious > > > > advantages, > > > > > > Which would need to be offset with disadvantages which actually fit > > > the way Tolkiens Elves are. But how does one quantise such things (say > > > low on aggression, long on reflection on situations, quietness) and > > > then how does one bring them into the players behaviour (when would > > > one throw on any of those?). > > Of course the eelves should have advantages. The first age Noldor were > > surely more powerful than the humans. > > Definitely. Particularily Feanorans :-). Especially them, and my elf was a Feanoran. > > > And they weren't quiet or low on > > aggression. > > I was here actually refering to 3rd age Elves as seen in LoTR (which > are the ones in most ICE/MERP material, which this thread started out > as). Particularly my Mirkwood Sindar gets played that way. Sindar are boring just because of that, who, even a good roleplayer wants to play a character that stayes home and plays flute. It is a bit boring if only thing you do in a session is to say: "my character doesn't come wih the rest, but will rather stay in Mirkwood and watch the stars." > > But a good roleplayer doesn't allways want the most powerful character > > in the group. > > A _good_ one, yes. But there are an awfull lot of bad ones. Munchkins. True > Of course they should not play ME, but rather take some Slash&Hack > world. Our group does a few rounds of Paranoia to act out such > aggression every half year. > > > All right I have played a 105 level Noldo Mage-Fighter who carried > > Anguirel. > > Sorry that I do not know what a "105 level" is. The RQ system used by > us is level-less. Rather every character has a set of attributes that > grow with use/experience. I have played RQ also. This character was in Rolemaster (/Merp) system. Tamim