From: Michael Grimm Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Rings and cloaking Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:05:41 -0600 Organization: Lucent Technologies, Denver, CO Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: genesis.dr.lucent.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.ebone.net!amsnews01.chello.com!nexus.news.chello.be!news.tvd.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16759 The One ring provided invisibility to its wearer, we all know that. But a thought that hadn't occurred to me until now is that the Three must have provided some form of cloaking to the ring itself. Galadriel's was not visible to Sam - only Frodo saw it. Was this because she wished him to see it? or because Frodo was the bearer of the One? There is no mention that any of the fellowship knew that she even had one of the Three. There is no mention of Elrond's ring until after the destruction of the One. The same goes for Gandalf's. Could this be because these Rings were somehow cloaked from other's perception? Since they contained gems, these Rings would be obvious to any that looked at the hand of the bearer. It seems reasonable to assume, that if they were readily visible, especially on Gandalf, that someone would question the power level of the ring. If Frodo could see Galadriel's (because of his bearing of the One) he would also be able to see Gandalf's. Therefore, the conclusion that I've reached is that they were only visible to others at the preference of the bearer. -- Mike Grimm | Denver, Colorado Lucent Technologies' | mjgrimm@lucent.com Bell Laboratories | (303) 538-2688 ###### From: "bkg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:00:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 955137636 24.9.194.107 (Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:00:36 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:00:36 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16814 Aragorn knew that she had one of the Three. When Frodo mentions it later in Fellowship he tells Frodo that yes, Galadriel does have a great ring. And yes, Frodo was able to see it because he was the bearer of the One, not because Galadriel allowed him. That's why Sam didn't see it but rather saw a star shining. Gorthaur Michael Grimm wrote in message news:38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com... > The One ring provided invisibility to its wearer, we all know > that. But a thought that hadn't occurred to me until now is that > the Three must have provided some form of cloaking to the ring > itself. > > Galadriel's was not visible to Sam - only Frodo saw it. Was this > because she wished him to see it? or because Frodo was the bearer > of the One? There is no mention that any of the fellowship knew > that she even had one of the Three. > > There is no mention of Elrond's ring until after the destruction of > the One. The same goes for Gandalf's. > > Could this be because these Rings were somehow cloaked from other's > perception? Since they contained gems, these Rings would be obvious > to any that looked at the hand of the bearer. It seems reasonable > to assume, that if they were readily visible, especially on Gandalf, > that someone would question the power level of the ring. If Frodo > could see Galadriel's (because of his bearing of the One) he would > also be able to see Gandalf's. Therefore, the conclusion that I've > reached is that they were only visible to others at the preference of > the bearer. > > -- > Mike Grimm | Denver, Colorado > Lucent Technologies' | mjgrimm@lucent.com > Bell Laboratories | (303) 538-2688 ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:07:06 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.e5 X-Server-Date: 8 Apr 2000 17:08:53 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16853 Said me@here.not (bkg) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Aragorn knew that she had one of the Three. When Frodo mentions it later in >Fellowship he tells Frodo that yes, Galadriel does have a great ring. Wow, I don't remember that at all. Can you post a quote,or give a more specific reference? >And yes, Frodo was able to see it because he was the bearer of the One, not >because Galadriel allowed him. That's why Sam didn't see it but rather saw >a star shining. But that doesn't answer Michael Grimm's point. Why could Frodo not see the Rings that Elrond and Gandalf bore, if he saw Galadriel's because he was bearing the One? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Date: 08 Apr 2000 21:19:13 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6ubt3kmmdq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 955221553 9210 10.0.3.2 (8 Apr 2000 19:19:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2000 19:19:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16857 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > Said me@here.not (bkg) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >And yes, Frodo was able to see it because he was the bearer of the One, not > >because Galadriel allowed him. That's why Sam didn't see it but rather saw > >a star shining. Which implies that the ring only hides itsself (the metal part) and not even the gem on it. Sort of interesting when compared with the One that hides its entire wearer including clothes. > But that doesn't answer Michael Grimm's point. Why could Frodo not > see the Rings that Elrond and Gandalf bore, if he saw Galadriel's > because he was bearing the One? Because Galadriel was wearing it openly while Gandalf and Elrond had hidden theirs (on a string/chain aroung neck?). There is a remark near the end of LoTR that after the One was destroyed, Gandalf then wore his now powerless ring openly (IIRC this remark is together with the description that he was now just like an friendy old man, with the burden of his job fallen away). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Date: 8 Apr 2000 18:27:26 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8cntme$1ot6$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 955218446 58278 140.186.80.8 (8 Apr 2000 18:27:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2000 18:27:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16886 In article , Stan Brown wrote: >Said me@here.not (bkg) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Aragorn knew that she had one of the Three. When Frodo mentions it later in >>Fellowship he tells Frodo that yes, Galadriel does have a great ring. > >Wow, I don't remember that at all. Can you post a quote,or give a >more specific reference? Almost certainly this refers to the following exchange, from "The Great River": [Frodo speaking:] "Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring." "That should not have been said outside Lórien, not even to me," said Aragorn. "Speak no more of it!" Aragorn doesn't explicitly say that he already knew that Galadriel had one of the Three, but he also doesn't indicate that it is news to him. Make of that what you will. >>And yes, Frodo was able to see it because he was the bearer of the One, not >>because Galadriel allowed him. That's why Sam didn't see it but rather saw >>a star shining. > >But that doesn't answer Michael Grimm's point. Why could Frodo not >see the Rings that Elrond and Gandalf bore, if he saw Galadriel's >because he was bearing the One? What Galadriel actually said was, "[I]t cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye." It is not clear if she meant that both these conditions had to be true for someone to be able to see one of the Three without its owner's permission, but if she did it solves the problem: the next time Frodo saw either Gandalf or Elrond was after the One had been destroyed. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Compared to my lover, toilet paper looks trivial, but I have no intention of giving it up." --John Whiteside ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 08 Apr 2000 19:51:35 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000408155135.24686.00000327@nso-fz.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16904 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >Said me@here.not (bkg) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Aragorn knew that she had one of the Three. When Frodo mentions it later in >>Fellowship he tells Frodo that yes, Galadriel does have a great ring. > >Wow, I don't remember that at all. Can you post a quote,or give a >more specific reference? Actually, it is Frodo who mentions that she has a Great Ring. Aragorn merely tells him to shut up about it, because it is a secret, and should not have been mentioned outside of 'Lorien. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 08 Apr 2000 19:51:36 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000408155136.24686.00000328@nso-fz.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16905 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >But that doesn't answer Michael Grimm's point. Why could Frodo not >see the Rings that Elrond and Gandalf bore, if he saw Galadriel's >because he was bearing the One? Because a) He had posessed the Ring longer at that point, and was growing more attuned to it (and thus closer to being corrupted by it). b)Because he was closer to Mount Doom, and as one approaches Mount Doom, the Ring increases in power. -- John Whelan ###### From: "David Wendelken" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Date: 08 Apr 2000 17:50:15 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8co9in$ifa@journal.concentric.net> References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts014d42.atl-ga.concentric.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16901 The great rings of power gave according to the measure of those who bore them. By the time Frodo got to Lorien, he had grown in his heart and mind. He had learned to focus his mind more sharply and the Ring aided him to see more because of that. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 61 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:05:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 955245904 12.78.72.70 (Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:05:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:05:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16885 "Michael Grimm" wrote in message news:38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com... > Galadriel's was not visible to Sam - only Frodo saw it. Was this > because she wished him to see it? or because Frodo was the bearer > of the One? > There is no mention of Elrond's ring until after the destruction > of the One. The same goes for Gandalf's. > If Frodo could see Galadriel's (because of his bearing of the > One) he would also be able to see Gandalf's. Therefore, the > conclusion that I've reached is that they were only visible to > others at the preference of the bearer. I think the material in the story itself can shed some light on this; "Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood. 'Yes', she said, divining his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye." "I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?' 'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed [Bombadil's house, Prancing Pony, Weathertop]. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use the power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wize. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked turning again to Sam." FotR, The Mirror of Galadriel This seems to imply that Galadriel did not deliberately make her Ring visible to Frodo... she describes his ability to do so as an aspect of his own 'sight growing keener' rather than something she had done. That he did not see the Rings born by Elrond and Gandalf would then suggest that he had not 'advanced' to the point of seeing such hidden things when he left them. Indeed, he did not see Galadriel's Ring in their earlier meeting or even during their time at the mirror... until after gazing into the pool and his vision of the Eye. I'd go so far as to suggest that it was not until that moment that Frodo gained sufficient 'strength' and inherent understanding of the Rings to perceive the three that were hidden (just as he had perceived "him that holds the Seven and the Nine"... though three of the Seven were apparently destroyed by then). ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 55 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:12:06 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.99.22 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 955314685 212.151.99.22 (Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:11:25 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:11:25 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16946 Conrad Dunkerson hath written: [snip] > >I think the material in the story itself can shed some light on >this; > >"Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like >polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it >twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. >Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him >that he understood. > 'Yes', she said, divining his thought, 'it is not permitted to >speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden >from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye." > >"I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the >others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?' > 'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the >Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed [Bombadil's >house, Prancing Pony, Weathertop]. Do not try! It would destroy >you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according >to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use the power >you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to >the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one >that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your >sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly >than many that are accounted wize. You saw the Eye of him that >holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize >the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked turning >again to Sam." >FotR, The Mirror of Galadriel > >This seems to imply that Galadriel did not deliberately make her >Ring visible to Frodo... she describes his ability to do so as an >aspect of his own 'sight growing keener' rather than something she >had done. That he did not see the Rings born by Elrond and Gandalf >would then suggest that he had not 'advanced' to the point of >seeing such hidden things when he left them. Indeed, he did not >see Galadriel's Ring in their earlier meeting or even during their >time at the mirror... until after gazing into the pool and his >vision of the Eye. I'd go so far as to suggest that it was not >until that moment that Frodo gained sufficient 'strength' and >inherent understanding of the Rings to perceive the three that were >hidden (just as he had perceived "him that holds the Seven and the >Nine"... though three of the Seven were apparently destroyed by >then). A small suggestion: could the starlight also have had an influence on the ring's visibility to Frodo? Öjevind ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:30:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 955323037 12.79.25.7 (Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:30:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:30:37 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16928 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net... > A small suggestion: could the starlight also have had an > influence on the ring's visibility to Frodo? Interesting point, especially as even Sam seems to have seen SOMETHING, though he thought it was the starlight. In Frodo's thought it was as if the star had alighted upon Galadriel's hand. The star in question was, in fact, one of the Silmarils. If Galadriel had born Vilya I might be tempted to draw a parallel between the Silmaril in the sky linking to the Ring of Air... but as she bore Nenya, the Ring of Water, I can only suppose that the star-light was unconnected OR the power of the Three was somehow similar to or affected by that of the Silmarils in general. Possibly it was the 'adamant' stone which was set in Nenya? A substance related to the crystal of the Silmarils? Still, it could not have been starlight alone or Sam would have seen the Ring as clearly as Frodo did. I think perhaps Nenya reacted to the rising of Earendil's star... and both Frodo and Sam were aware of this at some level, but Frodo's heightened awareness allowed him to see things more truly. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 27 Message-ID: <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 955334277 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:37:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:37:57 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:37:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16960 Quoth "Öjevind Lång" : > Conrad Dunkerson hath written: [snip 46 lines of quoted text] > A small suggestion: could the starlight also have had an influence > on the ring's visibility to Frodo? Ojevind, Ojevind, Ojevind... how is it going to look to the newcomers here if even the old regulars ignore the netiquette hints in my FAQ? (I just reposted the thing; I figure I should try to encourage a little bit of compliance, anyway.) :) Two new lines to forty-six quoted lines is a pretty abyssmal ratio, after all. As for your question, I wouldn't be at all surprised if either the Ring or Galadriel was somehow inspired by the light of Earendil. After all, we know that Galadriel at least was able to do interesting things with that light: she trapped rather a lot of it in the phial, after all. Perhaps her Ring was able to help with that... or perhaps it was just a similar color. Incidentally, has anyone else wondered how the folks who saw the Silmarils "in person" were able to withstand their obviously extremely bright light? After all, we can see Earendil's Silmaril from an _awfully_ long ways away. (Or do you think the Valar devised some sort of enhancement system to make its light brighter when they sent Earendil on his way?) Steuard Jensen ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 10 Apr 2000 03:55:23 GMT References: <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000409235523.29593.00000313@nso-fx.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16939 In article <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >Incidentally, has anyone else wondered how the folks who saw the >Silmarils "in person" were able to withstand their obviously extremely >bright light? After all, we can see Earendil's Silmaril from an >_awfully_ long ways away. (Or do you think the Valar devised some >sort of enhancement system to make its light brighter when they sent >Earendil on his way?) > Steuard Jensen Maybe there is something anaogous to the speed of light going on there. Rather than the speed of the light being constant to all observers regardless of the viewers relative velocity to each other, it is the brightness which remains a constant regardless of the relative distance from the various observers. Then again, maybe not, I dunno. It sound good though. :-) Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:20:02 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.54.83 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 955376360 212.151.54.83 (Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:19:20 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:19:20 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16951 Steuard Jensen hath written: [snip] >Ojevind, Ojevind, Ojevind... how is it going to look to the newcomers >here if even the old regulars ignore the netiquette hints in my FAQ? Oops! Sorry, Steuard. :-) I just thought the points were so worthwhile they should be repeated in case someone did not get the original post in their newsreader. Öjevind ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:26:47 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.66 X-Server-Date: 10 Apr 2000 15:27:25 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16959 Said ojevind.lang@swipnet.se (Öjevind Lång) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Oops! Sorry, Steuard. :-) I just thought the points were so worthwhile they >should be repeated in case someone did not get the original post in their >newsreader. But if they didn't get Steuard's, why should they get yours? Perhaps you should post everything fifteen times so that everyone will be able to see it. Sorry to be sarcastic, but truly I don't understand the thought process here. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:05:07 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.43.57 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 955476263 212.151.43.57 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:04:23 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:04:23 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16994 Stan Brown hath written: >Said Öjevind Lång in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Oops! Sorry, Steuard. :-) I just thought the points were so worthwhile they >>should be repeated in case someone did not get the original post in their >>newsreader. > >But if they didn't get Steuard's, why should they get yours? > >Perhaps you should post everything fifteen times so that everyone >will be able to see it. > >Sorry to be sarcastic, but truly I don't understand the thought >process here. Umm...I was referring to the points in Conrad's post, which the post by me Steuard commented on was a reply to; however, mindful of Steuard's admonition to snip as much as possible I had snipped the reference to Conrad, thereby unwittingly providing a good example of the tricky balancing act between snipping too little and snipping too much. Öjevind ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:17:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.113.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 955484274 12.78.113.125 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:17:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:17:54 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17045 "Öjevind Lång" wrote in message news:IplI4.2397$uJ1.8374@nntpserver.swip.net... > Oops! Sorry, Steuard. :-) I just thought the points were so > worthwhile they should be repeated in case someone did not get > the original post in their newsreader. Heh. Absolutely! ALL of my posts should be quoted in their entirety. Isn't it obvious? ;) Thanks Oje. You've got my forgiveness for the 'lapse' anyway. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38EE1565.CA50CB33@drmail.dr.lucent.com> <1m6I4.2158$uJ1.8207@nntpserver.swip.net> <98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews> Subject: Re: Rings and cloaking Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <1zOI4.2594$fV.219817@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:29:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.113.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 955495741 12.78.113.125 (Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:29:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:29:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17046 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:98bI4.40$v3.595@uchinews... > Incidentally, has anyone else wondered how the folks who saw the > Silmarils "in person" were able to withstand their obviously > extremely bright light? This has been discussed previously, along with the question of why everyone in the area did not die of radiation poisoning. However, we have plenty of examples of people being around the Silmarils without being blinded or killed. As such the light did not operate in the ways standard physics would suggest.