From: "Douglas Eckhart" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: do elves have pointed ears? Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:44:58 +0100 Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net> Reply-To: "Douglas Eckhart" NNTP-Posting-Host: userej41.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 954783976 5854 62.188.13.52 (3 Apr 2000 17:46:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Apr 2000 17:46:16 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!194.53.76.66.MISMATCH!inetway!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16568 Hi, I was wondering if any of you folks could clear something up for me. I was having a bit of an argument with another guy about the elves of middle earth. He says that they have pointed ears but I disagree. My feeling is that the pointed ears description is the invention of later authors and the accursed Games Workshop. As far as I know, Tolkien never describes elves as having pointed ears. My question is, is this true? Does Tolkien ever describe them in detail? Is there any mention of this in any of the books? I always thought that basically they were the same form as humans albeit 'beautiful looking and more perfect. If any of you guys could clear this up then I would appreciate it. Best wishes, Douglas PS Does anyone know how elves will be depicted in the film? -- ~Please remove 'nospam' and replace with 'douglas.eckhart' to reply by email.~ ~Douglas's web site: 'The Theatre Des Vampires'~ http://www.douglas.eckhart.dial.pipex.com/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: do elves have pointed ears? Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8can0v$2hc_020@news.uswest.net> References: <8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:13:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.85 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954785458 207.224.149.85 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:10:58 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:10:58 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16591 In article <8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net>, "Douglas Eckhart" wrote: >Hi, > I was wondering if any of you folks could clear something up for me. > I was having a bit of an argument with another guy about the elves of >middle earth. He says that they have pointed ears but I disagree. You're right, he's wrong, but there are a lot of people who are wrong with him, and that sort of communal wrongness makes these people very stubborn. No doubt you are going to be told Tolkien wrote that they did have pointed ears. Don't believe it. He didn't write any such thing. People have made much of the "las-" entry in THE LOST ROAD AND OTHER WRITINGS, but they usually conveniently forget to mention that the "[human]" was supplied by Christopher Tolkien as a guess about which he felt very ambivalent. Some people will also make a big fuss over Tolkien's use of "elvish" in describing a hobbit's ears for Houghton Mifflin. However, they are slow to point out that the only reference Hougton Mifflin had at the time was the common folklore -- Tolkien's Elves were by no means hanging around at the time, let alone providing any sort of frame of reference. And then the fact that Men and Elves were often mistaken for one another in Tolkien's stories makes it pretty clear that the ears were not distinctive features about them. Usually when someone says, "I see you are [or are not]" whatever, they are distinguishing by the eyes, not the ears. If it were really as simple as Elves having pointed ears, Tolkien could at least once have come up with such a reference. None exists. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net> Subject: Re: do elves have pointed ears? Lines: 226 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:17:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954800276 12.79.25.62 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:17:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:17:56 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16571 "Douglas Eckhart" wrote in message news:8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net... > I was having a bit of an argument with another guy about the > elves of middle earth. He says that they have pointed ears but I > disagree. A point of frequent debate. Unfortunately often rather heated as it is one of those topics where some people insist that their personal preference is the only possible answer. I've included a summary of most of the evidence on either side below. To help you in evaluating any 'slant' which might exist; my own view is that Tolkien indicated at least once that they DID have pointed ears and never wrote anything saying that they did NOT. What his eventual 'canonical' decision might have been is anyone's guess. > My feeling is that the pointed ears description is the invention > of later authors and the accursed Games Workshop. No, this at least is certain. Pointed ears on elves PRE-date Tolkien by several centuries. Indeed, that is one of the principle reasons it is commonly assumed that his Elves had them. > PS Does anyone know how elves will be depicted in the film? From everything I've heard they are going to have pointed ears. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Frequently Unanswered Question Do the Elves in Tolkien's stories have pointed ears? Evidence and arguments in favor of pointed elven ears; "I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. ... I picture a fairly human figure ... fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)." JRRT - Letters #27, writing to Houghton Mifflin circa March-April 1938 At the simplest level this is taken to mean that 'elvish' ears were pointed in Tolkien's stories. However, it is generally pointed out that the Elves Tolkien was referring to might be those of folklore rather than his own creations. Even this is taken as indirect support on the grounds that if JRRT was here relying on popular understanding of elven ears to clarify his use of 'pointed' (at the top like fairy tale elves rather than diamond shaped or 'pointed' in some other fashion) then the illustrators would be likely to assume that this popular understanding also applied to Tolkien's Elves and draw them accordingly. A third possible reading exists in which it is assumed that there is no intended connection between 'pointed' and 'elvish' - they are two SEPARATE aspects of hobbit ears. However, there do not seem to be any other commonly held perceptions of elven ears, beyond pointedness, for JRRT to have been referring to here. "LAS(1) - *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lasskwelene), cf. Q Narqelion [kwel].Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].) LAS(2) - listen. N lhaw ears (of one person), old dual *lasu - whence singular lhewig. Q. lar, lasta- listen; lasta listening, hearing - Lastalaika 'sharp-ears', a name, cf. N Lhathleg. N lhathron hearer, listener, eavesdropper (< *la(n)sro-ndo); lhathro or lhathrado listen in, eavesdrop." The Lost Road and Other Writings, Etymologies CT 1987 working from JRRT manuscripts written circa 1936-1940 The first root is found in 'Legolas - Greenleaf' while the second appears in 'Amon Lhaw - hill of hearing'. As such the dual meaning of 'las' as both 'ear' and 'leaf' apparently due to the similar shapes of the two things is carried over into Lord of the Rings. Working from the same materials Douglas Anderson wrote; "In his notes on the stem LAS[1] from *lasse = 'leaf' and LAS[2] 'listen' (*lasse = 'ear'), Tolkien noted the possible relationship between the two in that Elven "ears were more pointed and leaf- shaped" than human ones." The Annotated Hobbit, Flies and Spiders (note 6) 1988 Finally, other readers have rendered the original manuscript text as; "Some think this is rel. to next and lasse = ear ? The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Hu??n." Note that the '??' between 'Hu' and 'n' is indistinct and that the sentence in question is written in a different style than the definitions for LAS above and below, implying that it was a later addition. CT concluded that these alterations went on for two or three years during the writing of LotR. It seems clear that the final word of the relevant sentence is ambiguous despite Anderson's unequivocal use of 'human'. CT wrote that his '[?human]' "indicates doubt as to the correctness of my reading" but is "better than a guess". Even leaving out this uncertain term the passage states that Quendian, and thus specifically Tolkien's, elves had ears which were "more pointed and leaf-shaped" than something. It has been argued that we do not know the kind of point or type of leaf intended, and thus that the points might have been downward or the ears maple leaf shaped (round leaves being left out as contradicting the 'pointed'). Further, human ears might also be described as 'leaf-shaped'. The point protagonists respond that it seems likely that JRRT was referring to the very common sort of leaf which is rounded at the bottom and tapers to a point at the top - in exactly the same fashion as the ears of other elves of legend. Further, the 'downward pointed' or 'maple-leaf shaped' ears would still be "pointed" and rather notably non-human. Finally, if the ears WERE shaped like those of humans then there would be no conceivable reason for JRRT to have written the sentence at all. Finally, illustrators, including Pauline Baynes whose work Tolkien praised, have consistently portrayed Tolkien's Elves with pointed ears without any known objections from JRRT or his family. There is only one known illustration by Tolkien himself of an Elf in which we can even make a guess at facial features. That painting is 'Beleg Finds Flinding in Taur-na-Fuin' from 1928. It shows Beleg in the lower left corner with what might be taken for either a pointed ear or a triangular part in the black hair on the side of his head. The painting is not detailed enough to be certain of Tolkien's intent. A passable reproduction of this painting can be seen at; http://godzilla.eecs.berkeley.edu/rolozo/images_tolkien/fangorn.jpg Evidence and arguments against pointed elven ears; "Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring..." JRRT - Letters #153, September 1954 "The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race." JRRT - Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth Commentary circa 1959 There are many other quotations in this same vein; demonstrating that Elves and Humans were physically the same race and could be mistaken for each other. As such it is argued that elves and humans being the same physical race must have ears of the same shape and that if they did not they could not be mistaken for each other. This argument is countered by pointing out the myriad physical differences amongst humans of our own world and even moreso in Middle Earth. Hobbits, as the best example, are described as a branch of the human race, but according to the letter quoted above DO have pointed ears. Yet they are mistaken for or compared to normal human children (due to their height) several times in the stories. Given the many variations in physical appearance amongst humans in Middle Earth it is argued that there could be humans who also had pointed ears; indeed some people in our own world have ears which can be described as 'pointed' at the top. Even if this were not the case humans and elves could still have different shaped ears and be mistaken for each other if the individual had long hair, were wearing a hood or were only seen from a distance. Still, Tolkien does list elven characteristics on a few occasions without mentioning pointed ears. "'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men! [if only he had] But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe;..." JRRT - Letters #144, April 1954 "Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this is a word in ancestry and original meaning suitable enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which Shakespeare played an unforgivable part, has really overloaded it with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome." JRRT - Letters #151, September 1954 "Elves has been used to translate both Quendi 'the speakers', the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm... This old word was indeed the only one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this people as Men preserved... But it has been diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the swift falcon..." RotK, Appendix F II - On Translation circa 1955 These quotations are used to indicate that the Quendi should not be equated with Elves of other legends despite the use of that term as a 'translation'. At root these quotations are used to counterbalance the common perception that Elves of legend had pointed ears; this being irrelevant if JRRT did not mean for his Elves to be equated with those others. It can be seen from the quotations that JRRT indicated that the older conception of Elves, some of which were not stated to have pointed ears, was quite similar to the Quendi, only the later 'frivolous' elves being inappropriate to his vision. Finally, the possibility must be considered that even if Tolkien DID with the references quoted earlier mean to say that his Elves had pointed ears that view might have been subsequently rejected or held only for a brief time. The quotations both occur during the period JRRT was trying to reconcile the Elves of The Hobbit with those of LotR and the older mythology. Thus, in the older stories (where in fact they were called 'Gnomes' rather than Elves) they might never have been conceived of as having pointed ears - this only being imposed by the more 'fairy tale' based Elves of The Hobbit. In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: do elves have pointed ears? References: <8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 954822030 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:20:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:20:30 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 04:20:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16551 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : > I've included a summary of most of the evidence on either side > below. This has once again made me very aware of the need for a sequence of mini-FAQs to compliment my all-too-brief FAQ, but alas, I don't have anywhere near the time I would need to work on (or organize) the project at the moment. I still have some ideas that I think are good, though. Maybe this summer... Steuard Jensen ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: do elves have pointed ears? Date: 04 Apr 2000 22:53:50 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 60 Message-ID: <6uzor9lh9d.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8cald8$5mu$1@lure.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 954881630 979 10.0.3.2 (4 Apr 2000 20:53:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 20:53:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16631 "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: > "'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but > originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race > similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in > > "Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this is a word > in ancestry and original meaning suitable enough. But the > disastrous debasement of this word, in which Shakespeare played an > unforgivable part, has really overloaded it with regrettable tones, > which are too much to overcome." Or not too much, see [1]. > diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or > silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the > swift falcon..." > > These quotations are used to indicate that the Quendi should not be > equated with Elves of other legends despite the use of that term as > a 'translation'. A small warning to non-british: british language usage (particularly in Tolkiens days [1]) is to equal elf = fairy. This is the "disastrous debasement" of Shakespeare (see the fairies in "Summer Nights Dream"). [1] one of the effects of LoTR has been that at least people who have read it in depth and then continued have re-discovered the original celtic and germanic mythological elves (Sidhe, Elben) as (near-)human sized beings. > counterbalance the common perception that Elves of legend had > pointed ears; Wasn't he here referring to the "fairy" elves, not the mythological ones? > this being irrelevant if JRRT did not mean for his > Elves to be equated with those others. And what are the mythological elves like? > quotations that JRRT indicated that the older conception of Elves, > some of which were not stated to have pointed ears, was quite > similar to the Quendi, Do you have any decent material on the mythological elves and what they were described like? That is something I have been looking for since quite a while. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?