From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 04:18:05 GMT References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16369 In article <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com>, Flame of the West writes: >> THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound >up >> with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy >> editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was >> reinventing the entire mythology anyway. > >I agree with Steuard that there is a good chance that JRRT would >eventually have thought better of his "Myths Transformed" changes. >IMHO, he would have opted for a more classically mythological >approach, and left things pretty much where they were. This is >why I believe that the published Silm. is reasonably close to what >JRRT eventually would have published. I also think that there >would have been a Last Battle prophecy by someone, given his >almost lifelong attachment to the idea. What is the big deal with Myths Trasnformed. The main cosmological difference is the creation of the Sun and Moon. The traditional cosmology has a later creation of the Sun, thus explaining my for eons Arda was bathed only in starlight. The Myths Transformed cosmology wanted the celestial bodies to be there from the beginning. Tolkien recognized that this would affect the beauty of the image of Elves awakening in starlight. But he have an explanation. Just as Melkor wreaked havoc with the form and substance of Arda (raising mountains, throwing up fires, moving rivers, etc.), the battles with Melkor could also have affected the Sun and the Moon (dimming them throwing them (or rather ME out of orbit) shrouding them in darkness, etc.) For example, Melkor's ravishment of the sun maia (forgot her name) resulted its dimming and it was only rekindled when Fingolfin stepped on Middle Earth. This would be consistent with the "traditional" cosmology. I really don't see what all the hue and cry is about. > Russ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:27:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954466031 12.78.71.34 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:27:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:27:11 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16432 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com... > What is the big deal with Myths Trasnformed. The main > cosmological difference is the creation of the Sun and Moon. Actually, the late period alterations which bother me most are Men awakening shortly after the Elves and the Ainur being unable to have children in any way shape or form... making Luthien something of a problem. The Sun, Moon and always round earth also tend to just detract somewhat from the 'magic' or 'mythological' feel. Yes, it could all still have been strung together logically with more alterations... that isn't really an issue at all. The part that gets me is the way the tone of the histories would change, more than the individual events. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 80 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:58:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.234 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954467851 206.141.213.234 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:57:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:57:31 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16417 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:P9TE4.1595$TM.150915@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com... > > > What is the big deal with Myths Trasnformed. The main > > cosmological difference is the creation of the Sun and Moon. > > Actually, the late period alterations which bother me most are Men > awakening shortly after the Elves and the Ainur being unable to > have children in any way shape or form... making Luthien something > of a problem. The Sun, Moon and always round earth also tend to > just detract somewhat from the 'magic' or 'mythological' feel. > > Yes, it could all still have been strung together logically with > more alterations... that isn't really an issue at all. The part > that gets me is the way the tone of the histories would change, > more than the individual events. Where did you get the idea that the Valar cannot have children? Tolkien denied that the Valar HAD children, he did not say that they COULDN'T have children. In fact a footnote in the Ósanwe-kenta says: if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving. "We do not know the _axani_ (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an _axan_, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched. "The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high _asari_, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.) ÓSANWË-KENTA _Vinyar Tengwar_ no. 39 The Valar could, if they wanted to, have children, but they would become earth bound. Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:11:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954803465 12.79.25.62 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:11:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:11:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16576 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:fCTE4.395$nS6.153093@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > Where did you get the idea that the Valar cannot have children? > Tolkien denied that the Valar HAD children, he did not say that > they COULDN'T have children. Well, Eonwe was changed from Manwe's son to his herald. Ilmare was changed from daughter of Manwe and Varda to Varda's handmaiden. All references to the 'Children of the Valar' / 'Valarindi' were struck out. All of these changes COULD be attributed to the view that the Valar DID not have children rather than that they COULD not, but there are other issues; In association with the removal of the 'Children of the Valar' Tolkien wrote "'Note that "spouse" meant only an "association". The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes.'" (MR, The Later Quenta Silmarillion). CT states in relation to this; "At the same time the passage concerning the Valarindi, the Children of the Valar, at the end of ~4 was struck out (as it was also on the top copy), since this note is a most definitive statement that any such conception was out of the question." (MR, The Annals of Aman) Again, this could be attributed to a choice they made rather than complete inability but that is not stated. However, there is at least one instance where Tolkien precluded the idea of even embodied Ainur having children. When attempting to come up with an origin for the Eagles JRRT apparently abandoned the idea of Sorontar/Thorondor being a Maia on the grounds that he had descendants; "Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be DESCENDANTS of Sorontar." MR, Myths Transformed VIII Yes, there are many such references. However, in the very late writings Tolkien seems to have convinced himself against the idea. Whether this would have held up during a rewrite of the mythology is an open question. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 75 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <18lG4.222$xg6.72926@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:22:41 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.31.86 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954850941 209.18.31.86 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:22:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:22:21 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16552 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:dy9G4.10717$TM.656700@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:fCTE4.395$nS6.153093@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > Where did you get the idea that the Valar cannot have children? > > Tolkien denied that the Valar HAD children, he did not say that > > they COULDN'T have children. > > Well, Eonwe was changed from Manwe's son to his herald. Ilmare was > changed from daughter of Manwe and Varda to Varda's handmaiden. > All references to the 'Children of the Valar' / 'Valarindi' were > struck out. All of these changes COULD be attributed to the view > that the Valar DID not have children rather than that they COULD > not, but there are other issues; > > In association with the removal of the 'Children of the Valar' > Tolkien wrote "'Note that "spouse" meant only an "association". > The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes.'" (MR, The Later > Quenta Silmarillion). CT states in relation to this; "At the same > time the passage concerning the Valarindi, the Children of the > Valar, at the end of ~4 was struck out (as it was also on the top > copy), since this note is a most definitive statement that any > such conception was out of the question." (MR, The Annals of Aman) > Again, this could be attributed to a choice they made rather than > complete inability but that is not stated. > > However, there is at least one instance where Tolkien precluded the > idea of even embodied Ainur having children. When attempting to > come up with an origin for the Eagles JRRT apparently abandoned the > idea of Sorontar/Thorondor being a Maia on the grounds that he had > descendants; > > "Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe. But > unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are > said to be DESCENDANTS of Sorontar." > MR, Myths Transformed VIII This was a speculative essay not a finished text. I would guess that in Tolkien's mind "most of this fails" (as he said about The Problem of ROS) because Melian the Maia was the mother of Luthien. He usually considered himself bound by ideas that had appeared in print. > > > > Yes, there are many such references. However, in the very late > writings Tolkien seems to have convinced himself against the idea. > Whether this would have held up during a rewrite of the mythology > is an open question. What *very late* writings? Most of these texts date to the late 1950s. You have dismissed OSANWE-KENTA as just another late experimental writing, yet it was a _finished_ text similar to ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH, DANGWETH PENGOLODH and OF LEMBAS, all dating to approximately the same time, the late 1950's. I believe that in the OSANWE-KENTA Tolkien found an elegant solution to the problem of the Children of the Valar. It also fits with the late conception of Melkor becoming earth-bound in his effort to control the Incarnates. And finally it explains the Valar's reluctance to make war on Melkor "until the last, and not then by the express command of Eru and by his power" "The Great Valar do not do these things: they beget not...", because they were wiser than Melkor (who took a physical form and in that form "conceived ... an evil lust" toward Luthien). Ultimately the idea that the Valar had children was rejected, as you have pointed out. However, Tolkien could not escape form their ability to have children. It was to intricately entwined into the whole fabric of the histories. Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> <18lG4.222$xg6.72926@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Subject: Re: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:31:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.113.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954887477 12.78.113.141 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:31:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:31:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16651 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:18lG4.222$xg6.72926@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > This was a speculative essay not a finished text. So was everything in 'The Silmarillion'. > I would guess that in Tolkien's mind "most of this fails" (as he > said about The Problem of ROS) because Melian the Maia was the > mother of Luthien. He usually considered himself bound by ideas > that had appeared in print. So far as I know the story of Luthien's Maiar origins never appeared in print unless we count letters or drafts published after JRRT's death. > I believe that in the OSANWE-KENTA Tolkien found an elegant > solution to the problem of the Children of the Valar. Actually, I agree... and he expressed parts of similar ideas elsewhere. However, he also later wrote things contradicting this version of the metaphysics. > Ultimately the idea that the Valar had children was rejected, as > you have pointed out. However, Tolkien could not escape form > their ability to have children. It was to intricately entwined > into the whole fabric of the histories. This is not particularly different from what I have been trying to say. The Valar had children, then they did not have children, and (in my view) then they COULD NOT have children. This last was a very late idea and seems unlikely to have been reconcilable with the existing mythology (Luthien, Thorondor's descendants, et cetera). As I've said before I generally prefer the mythology in the state it was in as of and shortly after the publication of LotR. Most of the changes from the later part of the 1950s and thereafter don't 'fit' smoothly with the bulk of the mythology. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <20000329231805.08525.00009839@nso-cg.aol.com> <18lG4.222$xg6.72926@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Subject: Re: Myths Trasnformed (was Dagor Dagorath) Lines: 70 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:24:38 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.188.212 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954937393 199.179.188.212 (Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:23:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:23:13 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16641 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:V2uG4.12256$TM.769182@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:18lG4.222$xg6.72926@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > This was a speculative essay not a finished text. > > So was everything in 'The Silmarillion'. I wouldn't say that. There was a lot of unfinished writings that went into _The Silm_ but I wouldn't call them _speculative_. That I reserve for the stuff in *Myths Transformed*. > > > I would guess that in Tolkien's mind "most of this fails" (as he > > said about The Problem of ROS) because Melian the Maia was the > > mother of Luthien. He usually considered himself bound by ideas > > that had appeared in print. > > So far as I know the story of Luthien's Maiar origins never > appeared in print unless we count letters or drafts published after > JRRT's death. I was refering to "Melian of the people of the Valar", LOTR Appendix A. On the basis of this passage alone Robert Foster in the first edition of _A Guide to Middle-earth_ concluded that Melian "was probably a lesser Vala". I bring up Mr. Foster's early edition to illustrate what was known in 1971 before the publication of _The Silm_ and later material. He reasonably assumed that Luthien's mother was of divine race as Tolkien intended. > > > I believe that in the OSANWE-KENTA Tolkien found an elegant > > solution to the problem of the Children of the Valar. > > Actually, I agree... and he expressed parts of similar ideas > elsewhere. However, he also later wrote things contradicting this > version of the metaphysics. What later writings or ideas are you specifically referring to? > > > Ultimately the idea that the Valar had children was rejected, as > > you have pointed out. However, Tolkien could not escape form > > their ability to have children. It was to intricately entwined > > into the whole fabric of the histories. > > This is not particularly different from what I have been trying to > say. The Valar had children, then they did not have children, and > (in my view) then they COULD NOT have children. This last was a > very late idea and seems unlikely to have been reconcilable with > the existing mythology (Luthien, Thorondor's descendants, et > cetera). > > As I've said before I generally prefer the mythology in the state > it was in as of and shortly after the publication of LotR. Most of > the changes from the later part of the 1950s and thereafter don't > 'fit' smoothly with the bulk of the mythology. I would say the late 1950s does not present such a radical departure as you seem to imply, at least not the material that makes up the Quenta, the Annals, _Ainulindale_, and the tales like Tour, The Narn, and Aldarion and Erendis. If the extra-Silmarillion or experimental essays are ignored the rest fit just fine. Even completed essays lake the _Athrabeth_ and _Osanwe-kenta_ work well in the late '50s metaphysics. Where we get into trouble is in the speculation on the creation story and the origin of Orcs. Dave