From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Dagor Dagorath Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 04:00:42 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 134 Message-ID: <38DD613A.64A49D8D@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: taltio.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954032496 29826 128.214.182.55 (26 Mar 2000 01:01:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Mar 2000 01:01:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16127 http://tolkien.iwarp.com/ In the above address is the following text: "Of Dagor Dagorath. J.R.R. Tolkien, in early drafts of The Silmarillion referred to a Second Prophesy of Mandos, about a day when Morgoth returns and the final battle occurs. I have taken what Tolkien wrote as two paragraphs, and made it into a story" Has anybody read those two paragraps? What are they? I have always been quite interested in the second prophesy. It is even mentioned in the Silmarillion, but nothing in that book explains the thing further. This is the whole story: > Of Dagor Dagorath > > The Battle of Battles - based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien > > 8/99 > > > > And so, there came a time, far beyond the end of the Fourth Age of the Sun, when the world became old, the strength of the > Secondborn had begun to wane, and the Valar, who yet dwelled in Aman, beyond the confines of the world, had grown weary. > It was at that time, unseen by the ever-watchful eye of Eärendil, that the Door of Night was passed, and Melkor the Vala, > Morgoth Bauglir to the Children of Ilúvatar, reentered the spheres of Eä. > > Morgoth returned upon a day when both the Moon and Sun were in the sky. He waylaid both Tilion and Arien, and Isil and > Anar shared the same fate as Illuin and Ormal, the Lamps, and Telperion and Laurelin, the Trees. The vessels of the Sun and > the Moon were broken and their light was forever extinguished. Only the stars of Varda shone over Arda. The Valar, too, > noticed the extinguishing of the Light, and knew that the days of the prophesies of Mandos were near. > > Yet, before Morgoth could revel in his triumph, the evil Vala was suddenly taken unawares by a blinding light - the light of the > Silmaril of Eärendil. Fearing confrontation with Valinor before the time was ripe, Morgoth fled down to the earth. Unseen by > Eärendil was descent, and Morgoth came to the mountains of the Pelóri, in the south of Valinor. > > Beneath the great mountain of Hyarmentir, the very peak by which Morgoth had entered the blessed realm before the poisoning > of the Trees, Morgoth delved deep caves and built himself a new fortress. East into Avathar was spread Morgoth's evil, and > the land grew black and diseased. No being returned who ventured into the Dark Land. Word soon came to Manwë of the > blackness that had arisen in Aman, and he was distraught. The armies of the Eldar and Maiar, that had not fought since the War > of Wrath, when Angband was destroyed and Beleriand sunk, now prepared once again for battle. > > As he did under the stars in ages long past, again under stars Morgoth bred orcs, dragons, and other fell beasts in the caves > under Hyarmentir. No being that ventured into the darkness of the Avathar ever returned. The Eldar cursed the mountain, > naming it Orogurth, the Mountain of Death. As the Valar assembled their armies, the dark armies of Morgoth marched out > from beneath the ground into Valinor. Thus it was upon the plains of Valinor that Dagor Dagorath, the Last Battle began. > > > > Tulkas himself led the forces of Valinor into battle, with Eönwë at his right hand. The two slew and they slew as they led their > armies to battle, and Morgoth's forces fled before their wrath. Long was the battle fought upon land. For what would have > been many days, had the Sun been shining, the orcs, wolves, trolls, and Balrogs of Morgoth battled the Eldar and Maiar. > Victory seemed to be in the hands of Tulkas until shadows began to stir in the clouds above. Dragons descended upon the host > of Valinor, and the forces were scattered. Even the arrows of the Eldar rarely pierced the armor of these beasts, and the tide of > war turned in the favor of Morgoth. > > Yet only briefly was this victory held. Suddenly, as if a falling star came Eärendil, the Dragon-slayer, who had been watching > the battle, waiting for Morgoth to unleash his fire-serpents. Under the wrath that had caused the breaking of the Thangorodrim, > the Dragons fell and the host of Valinor was again heartened, and the battle was renewed. > > The Silmaril of Eärendil gave a light to the Eldar, and the battle continued on by a great time, until the host of Valinor reached > the fortress of Morgoth, the tallest mountain in all of Arda, save Taniquetil, the abode of Manwë and Varda. In that hour in > which Morgoth himself came, in his new form, least fair of any he had ever before worn - the embodiment of all that remained > of his dwindling power. Yet the presence of Morgoth upon the field drove his forces in a new fury. Countless number fell in that > War, Elf and Maia alike, and still the battle wore on. > > > > Even as the Last Battle raged, the Halls of Mandos remained in peace. A lone figure, summoned by Mandos in this last hour > exited the Halls, wrapped in a black shroud woven by Vairë, spouse of Mandos, and was met at the gates for the Vala of the > Halls. 'Child of Eru, you have been summoned in this time of need for a single purpose. Ride now to the doom that awaits you.' > The dark figure nodded silently, and his eyes fixed upon the steed that stood beside the Vala. Seeing his thoughts, Mandos > spoke again. 'This is Nahar, steed of Oromë. He will bear you swiftly to the field.' Mounting the father of all horses, the figure > rode off to the battle. > > > > The new fury of evil had begun to overwhelm the host of Valar when the dark rider came. Raising his sword, the rider clove a > trail of death up to the left hand of Tulkas. The two captains fought up the harsh slopes of the mountain, and the new name of > the peak proved true as those that followed perished rapidly. When Tulkas saw the face of Morgoth he ran to meet him, faster > than any wind. As the rider led the troops up the mountain, Tulkas wrestled with Morgoth in single combat, attempting to > destroy his great foe. The mountain shook as Vala wrestled Vala. Yet the prophesies did not allow Tulkas to achieve his desire, > for the last army of Morgoth, the fiercest and most fell of all the beasts of Arda, was then released. > > Tulkas turned to face the new onslaught, and he was swept away from Morgoth as the battle raged. As the Dark Lord laughed, > the dark rider, unseen because of the cloak of Vairë, rode up to Morgoth and dismounted. He raised his sword, which was as > black as the cloak he wore. The rider threw off his cloak, revealing the face of the Mormegil, named so for his sword, once > broken now made anew. Morgoth, taller than any man, looked down into the eyes of Túrin Turambar - the Master of Doom. > > > > Raising Grond, Morgoth swung a mighty blow towards his foe. Turambar dodged the blow easily, and Grond clove a hole > deep into the ground. Not since Dagor Bragollach and the duel with Fingolfin before Angband had Morgoth ever been so > challenged. Greater and longer than that duel was this combat, and Morgoth knew great fear. Glaurung's bane had come for > Glaurung's master. > > The metal of the black sword Gurthang was so strong that it turned aside even the force of Grond. Long they fought as the > battle raged around them. As Morgoth missed his opponent with another blow, Turambar's response rent a great wound in the > side of Morgoth. Morgoth gave a great cry. Rising for one last stroke, Morgoth put his entire being into his last blow. Gurthang > met the might Hammer of the Underworld, and a great clap of thunder echoed through the air, which rang throughout the whole > of Valinor. Both weapons were shattered, and, as Morgoth faltered, Túrin cried, 'Revenge for the children of Húrin and all of > the Secondborn!' and the shard of Gurthang clove through the neck of Morgoth. At long last, the Enemy was overthrown. > > > > Ilúvatar Himself was the orchestrater of the next feat after the Dagor Dagorath. Again He changed the fashion of the world, as > He had last done at the downfall of Númenor. All of Arda was broken. The oceans and the deepest levels of the earth were > raised up and the whole of the land was shattered. The Silmarils, all that remained of the former Light of Valinor with the loss of > the Sun and Moon, were recovered from ocean and land and brought to Mandos. > > Then came the greater effort. With the powers of Ilúvatar and all the Ainur, all of Arda was reshaped and remade as it was > before the symmetry of the land was broken. Aman was reunited with the world, and the marring of the long ages of war with > Morgoth and Sauron was no more. > > Fëanor then awoke from his sleep at the Halls of Mandos, and the Vala presented him with the two recovered Silmarils. > Eärendil stood beside him and gladly relinquished the last, and handed it to Fëanor. > > From the Halls of Mandos came Fëanor, bearing the Three Jewels that he had made long ago with the Light of the Trees. He > marched into Valmar, and brought the Silmarils forth to Yavanna Kementári. Manwë spoke then. 'The doom of Arda was > wrought along with these Jewels. As Ilúvatar Created with the words, "Eä! Let these things be!" I too shall usher in a new > beginning. Let the Light that has too long been extinguished be relit!" > > As the Valar and Túrin stood watching, along with all the Eldar, Yavanna approached withered remains of the Two Trees, > broke the Silmarils, and infused their light back into the Trees. Telperion and Laurelin grew again, and began to shine, first the > silver of Telperion, then a gentler mingling of lights, then the gold of Laurelin, then again a mingling. Cries of mirth went up > among all as the Ages of the Trees were born anew. The Valar leveled the Pelóri, and the Light of the Trees, at long last, shone > over all of Arda. Men across Middle-earth and the Sunlands looked up at the Light, the like of which they had never before > seen. > > In Valinor, all of the long-dead of the Firstborn, whether killed in ages long past or but recently, rose from Mandos and reveled > in the light of the Two Trees. All of the Ainur were reminded of the last chord of the Ainulindalë, deeper than the Abyss, higher > than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, and all knew, as both the Firstborn and Secondborn of the > Children of Ilúvatar lived under the Light of the Valar, the task of the Valar concerning the Children was complete. ###### From: "Robert Clinton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38DD613A.64A49D8D@helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:45:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.75.166.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954099945 12.75.166.173 (Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:45:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:45:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16135 I don't remember the two paragraphs referenced here, but I do remember the brief mention in the Silmarillion. The story below is interesting, certainly entertaining. I had given some thought to Dagor Dagorath and thought that the Silmarils would be recovered. Bob Tamim Khawaja wrote in message news:38DD613A.64A49D8D@helsinki.fi... > http://tolkien.iwarp.com/ > In the above address is the following text: > "Of Dagor Dagorath. J.R.R. Tolkien, in early drafts of The Silmarillion > referred to a Second Prophesy of > Mandos, about a day when Morgoth returns and the final battle occurs. I > have taken what Tolkien wrote > as two paragraphs, and made it into a story" > > Has anybody read those two paragraps? What are they? I have always been > quite interested in the second > prophesy. It is even mentioned in the Silmarillion, but nothing in that > book explains the thing further. > ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:50:44 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 10 Message-ID: <38DE7824.AD8068DA@helsinki.fi> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: draakki.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954103899 28514 128.214.189.13 (26 Mar 2000 20:51:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Mar 2000 20:51:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16164 Stan Brown wrote: > > > Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events leading > up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of Mandos", or > am I thinking of something else? > Yes where can we? ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:03:07 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.211.72 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954104513 206.141.211.72 (Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:01:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:01:53 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16163 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.134828505ed9102e98ae8c@news.mindspring.com... > Said conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >No, the concept is that at a very distant age when the powers of > >the Valar have grown weak Morgoth is somehow able to regain much of > >the power he had sent out into controlling Arda and breaks back > >into the world with considerable strength. How much isn't entirely > >clear, but apparently more than any one of the Valar at that point. > > Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events leading > up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of Mandos", or > am I thinking of something else? I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_. Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. _Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and presumably rejected by Tolkien. Dave ###### From: buhrger@ecn.ab.ca () Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: 26 Mar 2000 16:21:22 -0700 Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: newsfeed.sas.ab.ca 954112884 23488 198.161.206.2 (26 Mar 2000 23:21:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Mar 2000 23:21:24 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.6] X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.161.206.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.bc.net!clarke.sasknet.sk.ca!tribune.usask.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!buhrger Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16202 there's a little bit more about it in HoME 5, but i don't have the books handy. it does mention retrieval of the silmarils, and turin killing melkor, if i recall correctly. if i recall incorrectly, it presumably mentions something else. ajb Dave Lind (davel59@ameritech.net) wrote: : I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_. : Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor : Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. : _Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II : It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and : presumably rejected by Tolkien. : Dave -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Buhr buhrger@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Savour the Irony! buhra@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: 27 Mar 2000 00:44:53 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 44 Message-ID: <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 954117893 5160 140.186.80.8 (27 Mar 2000 00:44:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Mar 2000 00:44:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16173 In article <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca>, wrote: >Dave Lind (davel59@ameritech.net) wrote: >: I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_. >... >: It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and >: presumably rejected by Tolkien. >there's a little bit more about it in HoME 5, but i don't have the books >handy. From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32 (pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition): Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void, and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged. Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Earth and Air and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien, and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "You ain't seen from animus." --Ken Rudolph ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:07:50 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 16 Message-ID: <29519-38DEDE96-24@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAh2uuPPrXSJPGQZCOQKqQJoKUqPQCFDftUTmiRzEFWfNzoWrx2yzkobOu Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16168 Robert S. Coren wrote: >From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part >II, Chapter VI "Quenta Silmarillion", >section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs >31-32 [snipped account of Dagor Dagorath] It seems to me sort of like a ME version of Ragnarok: a final battle at the end of time which destroys the old world, and from which a new world is born. Though of course there are elements in the story which seem to derive from sources other than Norse mythology. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:28:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.111 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954177932 209.181.118.111 (Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:25:32 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:25:32 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16177 In article <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta >Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32 >(pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition): [snip] Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: 27 Mar 2000 21:55:01 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8bolbl$13cc$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 954194101 36236 140.186.80.8 (27 Mar 2000 21:55:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Mar 2000 21:55:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16227 In article <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net>, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >>From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta >>Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32 >>(pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition): > >[snip] > >Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF >THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding. "Nothing to do with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there seems like a pretty clear connection. To some of us, it's not entirely without interest to know how Tolkien at one time envisioned the end of his created world, even if he later abandoned this conception. Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd rather not. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "...and in the Eighth Square we shall be Queens together, and it's all feasting and fun!" --Lewis Carroll, _Through the Looking Glass_ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:28:36 -0500 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: DMi8OqjOwYW8GI1zfsGdhqXERhPOf3U/1IIU8qGBQdY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Mar 2000 22:42:21 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16210 Michael Martinez wrote: > >From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta > >Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32 > > Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF > THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 79 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:38:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.113.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954207532 12.78.113.159 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:38:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:38:52 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16221 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > Stan Brown wrote in message > news:MPG.134828505ed9102e98ae8c@news.mindspring.com... >> Where can we read about the Dagor Dagorath and the events >> leading up to it? Is that tied up with the "final prophecy of >> Mandos", or am I thinking of something else? > I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_. > Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor > Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. > _Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions of the mythology. Let's see what I can dig up; "When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged. In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and the Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake." SoME, Earliest Silmarillion ~1926 "Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods." SoME, The Quenta ~1930 Text very similar to the above from Quenta Silmarillion ~1937 given in LROW was quoted previously. "The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky. This, it is said, was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days." MR, Annals of Aman 1000-1050 ~1950 There are many other references, but I think these show that it was a long-lived concept. Nor is there any indication that it was abandoned thereafter - though Tolkien began considering drastic changes to the mythology in the last two decades of his life. The Second Prophecy of Mandos and Turin's part in it endured through at least 25 (1926 - 1950) years, specifically the same years in which The Hobbit and LotR were being written. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 954209708 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:15:08 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:15:08 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:15:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16246 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : > That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are > certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor > Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication > that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions > of the mythology. Looks like you and I had similar ideas at a similar time. :) Your post showed up right after I posted my own (in the "canonical" branch of the thread). Fortunately, our posts appear to be complimentary rather than repetitive, to a substantial degree: I quoted from _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ and commented on references to the Last Battle in HoMe X-XI. I don't think I mentioned it specifically, but in _The War of the Jewels_, the section of "The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_" dealing with the Dwarves comments that they believed they would help Aule to rebuild the world after the Last Battle. I have the impression that this section dates to the mid to late fifties, but I'm not really sure about the chronology. At any rate, the idea seems to have been quite persistent. Why is it that I've thought for so long that it was dropped? Steuard Jensen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:43:04 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 30 Message-ID: <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 5M5bouo80cKJF+DrMnRDa/qsi9FEZiD4FVOxIWn7I6A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 2000 05:05:37 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16245 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are > certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor > Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication > that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions > of the mythology. Let's see what I can dig up; > There are many other references, but I think these show that it > was a long-lived concept. Nor is there any indication that it was > abandoned thereafter - though Tolkien began considering drastic > changes to the mythology in the last two decades of his life. The > Second Prophecy of Mandos and Turin's part in it endured through at > least 25 (1926 - 1950) years, specifically the same years in which > The Hobbit and LotR were being written. Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT rejected the idea of a Last Battle. Instead, it seems he merely decided it didn't belong in the Quenta Silmarillion. It makes sense that the Middle-Earth mythology should include a Last Battle, since that is an important element of Nordic myth. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bqohq$ng_008@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <8bolbl$13cc$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:01:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.188 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954262739 207.224.148.188 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:58:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:58:59 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16233 In article <8bolbl$13cc$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >In article <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net>, >Michael Martinez wrote: >>In article <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >>>From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta >>>Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32 >>>(pp. 367-368 in the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback edition): >> >>[snip] >> >>Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF >>THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > >Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding. "Nothing to do >with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters >referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there >seems like a pretty clear connection. Same names, different characters. BIG difference. >Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd >rather not. My, my, aren't YOU a little snippy? Why didn't you bother to point out that Tolkien changed the whole prophecy scenario for Turin, so that he was only going to come back at the end of the First Age and help defeat Morgoth before dying a final time? -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:06:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.188 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954263018 207.224.148.188 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:03:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:03:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16232 In article <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >From _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), Part II, Chapter VI "Quenta >> >Silmarillion", section titled "Conclusion", paragraphs 31-32 >> >> Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF >> THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all. Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology. Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology. We've been through this time and time again. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 117 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:19:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.188 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954263802 207.224.148.188 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:16:42 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:16:42 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16234 In article <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT >rejected the idea of a Last Battle. Instead, it seems he merely >decided it didn't belong in the Quenta Silmarillion. Despite whatever nonsense Conrad may choose to post, J.R.R. Tolkien DID reject the Second Prophecy of Mandos (and the Last Battle as conceived there). He completely revised the mythology and produced a new world in which the Valar are NOT gods, in which Morgoth's eventual return is NOT certain, in which Turin does NOT come back at the end of Time, etc. Eventually Tolkien began to go back to the Second Prophecy and he decided to work it into the stories of the First Age, but not in any way like the earlier mythology had it. Turin would return as a mortal man for the War of Wrath against Morgoth (and perhaps only for the final assault on Angband), and then he would die again, for good. There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. The last gasp of the "Last Battle" comes in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. I take the following citation from the message I posted in December 1999 (and which is archived on Deja.Com and is easily found at http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=555495201&fmt=text ): THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, pages 374-5: $17 The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue ne heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke. [This remarkable saying has long roots, extending far back to the prophecy at the end of the old TALE OF TURAMBAR (II.115-16), where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur) would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and Maywin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their prayers came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their soorows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar shall indeed stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil. In the SKETCH OF THE MYTHOLOGY or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the 1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought, Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus shall the children of Hurin be avenged. The development of this in the QUENTA (IV.165) tells that in the days of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor, Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. And the final passage of the QUENTA, concerning the prophecy of the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (IBID.): But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods. These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the QUENTA that belongs with the QUENTA SILMARILLION of 1937 (see V.323-4, 333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be 'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentance concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In the cursory corrections that my father made much later to this conclusion (see XI. 245-7) he changed 'Turin...coming from the halls of Mandos' to 'Turin...returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world', and against the concluding passage (including the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he placed a large X. Another reference is found in the ANNALS OF AMAN (X. 71, 76), where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' In this last appearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text, p.371); but in all the early texts (the QUENTA, IV.160; the ANNALS OF BELERIAND, IV.309, V.144; the QUENTA SILMARILLION, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon.] -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: 28 Mar 2000 20:23:31 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8br4c3$23uc$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <8bolbl$13cc$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bqohq$ng_008@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 954275011 69580 140.186.80.8 (28 Mar 2000 20:23:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 2000 20:23:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16266 In article <8bqohq$ng_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <8bolbl$13cc$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >>In article <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net>, >>Michael Martinez wrote: >>> >>>Of course, this has nothing to do with the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF >>>THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. >> >>Well, somebody asked about it, so I was responding. "Nothing to do >>with" is a little strong, it seems to me. Since the characters >>referred to are all important actors in _The Silmarillion_, there >>seems like a pretty clear connection. > >Same names, different characters. BIG difference. >>Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd >>rather not. > >My, my, aren't YOU a little snippy? Perhaps I was mistaken, but I found it hard to read your "this has nothing to do with" comment as other than "snippy". Similarly the following, to which I'll suppress the snippy answer I was considering. >Why didn't you bother to point out that Tolkien changed the whole prophecy >scenario for Turin, so that he was only going to come back at the end of the >First Age and help defeat Morgoth before dying a final time? -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- Baba ganoosh ganache Ganesh! Baba ganoosh ganache! --culinary cheer for the elephant god ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:11:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954281484 12.78.72.2 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:11:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:11:24 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16270 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com... > Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT > rejected the idea of a Last Battle. That opinion has been posted from time to time, but I've never seen any evidence to support it except a view that mention of Ancalagon in certain versions of the 'last battle' moves the event to the end of the First Age rather than the end of days. I don't think the texts support this at all and instead take the presence of Ancalagon as a name re-use or reincarnation of the great dragon (if Morgoth and Turin can both come back from the dead for the fight, why not Ancalagon?) > Instead, it seems he merely decided it didn't belong in the > Quenta Silmarillion. Actually, it was in that one too. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:25:24 -0500 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: UTVjznsWSNHoeJF+dYbVXmK8duqbHyvAvGCd5OH2aY8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 2000 22:52:53 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.idt.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16250 Michael Martinez wrote: > >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the > >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all. > > Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology. > Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology. They were the same characters, with minor changes. > We've been through this time and time again. Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend that you catch the next boat to Valinor. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:33:03 -0500 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UTVjznsWSNFyUbSdHWVoFY8MO6FsRD60uddydIF4tZY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 2000 22:52:55 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16249 Michael Martinez wrote: > Humor me. ;-) > There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by > THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent mythology. In particular, the Silmarillion was a work in progress, cobbled together (however brilliantly) by CJRT. It was just one of many possible combinations of JRRT's writings. I view the Hobbit and LotR as fully canonical, Silm. as less so, UT even less, and HoME less still. But to group the Silm. with the Hobbit and LotR is to give it a higher status than is warranted. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:10:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954285059 12.78.72.2 (Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:10:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:10:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16268 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com... > I view the Hobbit and LotR as fully canonical, Silm. as less so, > UT even less, and HoME less still. But to group the Silm. with > the Hobbit and LotR is to give it a higher status than is > warranted. Regardless, during the entire time that The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and the primary source materials CT used in compliling the published Silmarillion were being written the Second Prophecy of Mandos was an integral part of the mythology and appeared in every major version of it that JRRT wrote. The final battle and Turin's defeat of Morgoth was very much a part of Tolkien's world while he was creating TH and LotR - the dates for various quotations of this material prove the concept was contemporaneous with those two books. After publication of LotR it continues to show up from time to time. There are also two references which might be taken to mean that it was abandoned late in JRRT's life or Turin's part in it moved to the end of the First Age (CT suggests both things), but neither is clearly spelled out as such and in fact I think JRRT may have meant to continue the original concept. Even if such changes WERE taken to be Tolkien's final intent (and again we get into the issue of whether he'd have changed it back rather than rework the mythology around the new concepts) these alterations themselves would be to 'a different world' than that in TH and LotR. The new references post-dated publication of those two books by many years and properly belong to the 'Myths Transformed' time period which is alternatively put forward as the height of 'CANON' or dismissed out of hand. :) ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: 29 Mar 2000 00:00:45 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38 <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 954288045 74877 140.186.80.8 (29 Mar 2000 00:00:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 00:00:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!triton.skycache.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16267 In article <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >After publication of LotR it continues to show up from time to >time. There are also two references which might be taken to mean >that it was abandoned late in JRRT's life or Turin's part in it >moved to the end of the First Age (CT suggests both things), but >neither is clearly spelled out as such and in fact I think JRRT may >have meant to continue the original concept. Even if such changes >WERE taken to be Tolkien's final intent (and again we get into the >issue of whether he'd have changed it back rather than rework the >mythology around the new concepts) these alterations themselves >would be to 'a different world' than that in TH and LotR. The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would have done about the ending. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Don't take life so serious, son -- it ain't nohow permanent." --Porkypine (Walt Kelly) ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Mar 2000 01:10:02 GMT References: <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000328201002.08525.00009410@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16281 In article <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com>, Flame of the West writes: >> We've been through this time and time again. > >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend >that you catch the next boat to Valinor. That's funny. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Mar 2000 01:10:02 GMT References: <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000328201002.08525.00009411@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16282 In article <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) writes: >The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter >part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the >post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would >have done about the ending. >-- BINGO! Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bsgdd$2v0_014@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <8bolbl$13cc$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bqohq$ng_008@news.uswest.net> <8br4c3$23uc$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:55:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.144 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954319964 209.181.118.144 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:52:44 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:52:44 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16275 In article <8br4c3$23uc$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >In article <8bqohq$ng_008@news.uswest.net>, >Michael Martinez wrote: >>>Nobody's requiring you to discuss it, or even read about it, if you'd >>>rather not. >> >>My, my, aren't YOU a little snippy? > >Perhaps I was mistaken, but I found it hard to read your "this has >nothing to do with" comment as other than "snippy". Similarly the >following, to which I'll suppress the snippy answer I was considering. You were mistaken. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bsgef$2v0_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:55:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.144 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954319998 209.181.118.144 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:53:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:53:18 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16276 In article <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all. >> >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology. >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology. > >They were the same characters, with minor changes. MAJOR changes. >> We've been through this time and time again. > >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend >that you catch the next boat to Valinor. I recommend you not start another flame war. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:58:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.144 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954320180 209.181.118.144 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:56:20 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:56:20 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16274 In article <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> > >Humor me. ;-) > >> There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by >> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > >I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent >mythology... Tolkien went to great pains to make them so, even though he didn't finish THE SILMARILLION, which had to be published by his son. >...In particular, the Silmarillion was a work in progress, >cobbled together (however brilliantly) by CJRT. It was just one of >many possible combinations of JRRT's writings. THE SILMARILLION is a combination of JRRT and CJRT's writings. That doesn't change the fact that the Valar were no longer gods, that the Dagor Dagorath had been abandoned, and that Turin -- if he were to return at all -- would still have been mortal, doomed to die and leave the circles of the world forever as all men were. THE SILMARILLION represents the most complete vision of the mythology envisioned by Tolkien as of the second edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38 <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:00:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.144 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954320302 209.181.118.144 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:58:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:58:22 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16277 In article <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: > >The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter >part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the >post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would >have done about the ending. All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the Second Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT (second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38 <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:59:55 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.188.141 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954331179 199.179.188.141 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:59:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:59:39 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16258 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net... > In article <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: > > > >The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter > >part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the > >post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would > >have done about the ending. > > All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the Second > Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT > (second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. You have said this more than once but that does not make it correct. The world of _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ is precisely where the Second Prophecy belongs. It was only after the completion of LOTR when Tolkien began the major overhaul the Legendarium that the SP was reconsidered. Mr. Coren is not side-stepping but has hit the nail on the head. The SP had long roots and as someone noted is present in every version of the Legendarium from "The Hiding of Valinor" in _The Book of Lost Tales_ to the second revision of the later "Quenta Silmarillion" in _The War of the Jewels_. If Tolkien had finished the Quenta would he have included the SP? In spite of MM's claim to the contrary we don't know. I tend, however, to agree with MM, that the SP doesn't have a place in the later Legendarium, but that is my OPINION. I can't think of any evidence other than Christopher Tolkien's strong statements that the SP was rejected on the basis of one quote in the Valaquenta. > > Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not > come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth. Of course Men could not become Valar (unless Tolkien wanted them to :-) ) but what does this have to do with anything? The latest version of the SP (_War of the Jewels_ pg. 247) says that Turin (and Beren) "returning from the Doom of Men at the end of the world"... It is no longer claimed that Turin came from Mandos or that he was counted "among the sons of the Valar". Dave ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Mar 2000 15:25:42 GMT References: <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16286 In article <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>The fact is he never got around to any serious revision of the latter >>part of the story (anything from the Fall of Doriath on) in the >>post-LotR period, so it's really very difficult to tell what he would >>have done about the ending. > >All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the >Second >Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT >(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > >Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not >come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth. Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This allowed Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up. Perhaps Turin was simply waiting in Mandos for a long time. His nature wasn't changed. He will still eventually leave the circles of the world as all mortals do; however, he will be granted a grace, as Beren was, to return for a short time. Unlike Beren, Turin will not return to live out his life, but rather to have his and Man's revenge on Morgoth. Russ ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38 <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 12 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:20:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 954357490 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:18:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:18:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!204-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16372 On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:00:46 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the Second >Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT >(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > >Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not >come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth. The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 954361209 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:20:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:20:09 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:20:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net.MISMATCH!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16303 Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > >Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. > The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal. I wouldn't say that the Nazgul became immortal, at least not in an "intrinsic" sense. That is, I don't believe that their basic nature was changed. Their rings simply held back the aging process for them (and considering Bilbo's fairly swift decay after the destruction of the One, a lot of that "missing aging" was lurking in the background, waiting to pounce). As for the wraiths of Dunharrow, I don't know that we really know enough about them to say. My interpretation has been that they were, in fact, Dead Men, and that it was merely their spirits (whatever that means precisely) that kept hanging around the stone of Erech. That doesn't really sound like standard immortality to me. The only rumored mortal to immortal transition that I'm really aware of is Tuor, and as discussed in other older threads, I think that's just a pretty legend. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:30:23 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 45 Message-ID: <38E283EF.CEDEA90E@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> <8bsgef$2v0_016@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ye7MQyD27CNR+lB+rN5SCFaI6URxZ2WPMo8iTeeWG7A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 01:18:31 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16308 Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the > >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at all. > >> > >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology. > >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology. > > > >They were the same characters, with minor changes. > > MAJOR changes. Name some major changes in any of the above characters that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy. > >> We've been through this time and time again. > > > >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest > >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend > >that you catch the next boat to Valinor. > > I recommend you not start another flame war. My goodness, you are offended easily! I can't imagine how one could be offended at being likened to Elrond, one of the noblest and most awe-inspiring beings in the history of Middle-Earth, and perhaps my very favorite character. But I am making a serious point: it is illegimitate to try to stifle debate on a subject just because it has been addressed before. The makeup of this NG is constantly changing. Indeed, if you're going to count every change Tolkien made as a "new" mythology, I can regard RABT as a new NG everytime someone enters. So your debates occurred on an earlier NG, not this one. Besides, your earlier debates were defective, in that they did not enjoy the benefits of my considerable wisdom. ;-) -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:35:58 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 34 Message-ID: <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ye7MQyD27CPkwGu+6Ki8leXqkZ13gIqqB9MFn7fmEfk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 01:18:34 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16302 Michael Martinez wrote: > >> There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by > >> THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > > > >I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent > >mythology... > > Tolkien went to great pains to make them so, even though he didn't finish THE > SILMARILLION, which had to be published by his son. Which is precisely my point. The Silm. is a pretty good approximation to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them. > THE SILMARILLION is a combination of JRRT and CJRT's writings. That doesn't > change the fact that the Valar were no longer gods, that the Dagor Dagorath > had been abandoned, and that Turin -- if he were to return at all -- would > still have been mortal, doomed to die and leave the circles of the world > forever as all men were. The Valar were never gods in the sense that Eru is God. I suspect he called them "gods" to harmonize his nomenclature with that of the Nordic myths. You're probably right about Túrin, but the Last Battle long outlived that change. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:31:22 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 31 Message-ID: <38E2924A.D25C4F3F@helsinki.fi> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kehot.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954372737 23673 128.214.182.23 (29 Mar 2000 23:32:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Mar 2000 23:32:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16320 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > > >Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. > > > The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal. > > I wouldn't say that the Nazgul became immortal, at least not in an > "intrinsic" sense. That is, I don't believe that their basic nature > was changed. Their rings simply held back the aging process for them > (and considering Bilbo's fairly swift decay after the destruction of > the One, a lot of that "missing aging" was lurking in the background, > waiting to pounce). > > As for the wraiths of Dunharrow, I don't know that we really know > enough about them to say. My interpretation has been that they were, > in fact, Dead Men, and that it was merely their spirits (whatever that > means precisely) that kept hanging around the stone of Erech. That > doesn't really sound like standard immortality to me. > > The only rumored mortal to immortal transition that I'm really aware > of is Tuor, and as discussed in other older threads, I think that's > just a pretty legend. I agree. I would suppose that immortality in Tolkiens world doesn't only mean that one doesn't age or get sick. It means that if you are destroyed one way or the other you remain in Arda. I think the Nazgul, as humans had the destiny or gift of men after they finally perished. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> <8bsgef$2v0_016@news.uswest.net> <38E283EF.CEDEA90E@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 43 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:26:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954383028 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:23:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:23:48 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16345 In article <38E283EF.CEDEA90E@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the >> >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at > all. >> >> >> >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology. >> >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology. >> > >> >They were the same characters, with minor changes. >> >> MAJOR changes. > >Name some major changes in any of the above characters >that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy. The Valar were no longer gods, and Turin was no longer coming back to take his place among them. >> >> We've been through this time and time again. >> > >> >Not me. But your memory, like Elrond's, extends to the earliest >> >of days. I perceive that you are wearying of the world. I recommend >> >that you catch the next boat to Valinor. >> >> I recommend you not start another flame war. > >My goodness, you are offended easily! I didn't say I was offended. But you clearly feel it's necessary to make personal remarks about the other person, even though the other person hasn't made them about you. That's how flame wars get started. If you can keep your comments ON THE SUBJECT and off the people you disagree with, you'll find we have a very civil discussion. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 43 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:28:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954383117 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:25:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:25:17 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16354 In article <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >> There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented >> >> by THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. >> > >> >I don't view those three books as representing a single coherent >> >mythology... >> >> Tolkien went to great pains to make them so, even though he didn't finish THE >> SILMARILLION, which had to be published by his son. > >Which is precisely my point. The Silm. is a pretty good approximation >to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have >been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last >Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them. THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound up with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was reinventing the entire mythology anyway. >> THE SILMARILLION is a combination of JRRT and CJRT's writings. That doesn't >> change the fact that the Valar were no longer gods, that the Dagor Dagorath >> had been abandoned, and that Turin -- if he were to return at all -- would >> still have been mortal, doomed to die and leave the circles of the world >> forever as all men were. > >The Valar were never gods in the sense that Eru is God. I suspect he >called them "gods" to harmonize his nomenclature with that of the >Nordic myths. You're probably right about Túrin, but the Last Battle >long outlived that change. Yes, the Valar started out as gods. Classic, mythical gods. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bue6h$3i8_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:29:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954383204 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:26:44 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:26:44 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16351 In article <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the >>Second Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of >>THE HOBBIT (second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE >>SILMARILLION. >> >>Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not >>come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth. > >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This allowed >Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up. Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story. After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bue7k$3i8_018@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38 <7_aE4.1769$na7.135105@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:30:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954383239 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:27:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:27:19 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16355 In article <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:00:46 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>All this side-stepping carefully ignores the fact that the world of the Second >>Prophecy of Mandos was substantially different from the world of THE HOBBIT >>(second edition onward), THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. >> >>Men could not become Valar, or Maiar, or immortal. Period. Turin could not >>come back at the end of Time and slay Morgoth. > >The Nazgul and the wraiths of Dunharrow became immortal. They most certainly did not. They would not have been called wraiths if they were considered to be living men. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:31:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.70.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954383499 12.78.70.104 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:31:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:31:39 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16338 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:ZztE4.37$d6.981@uchinews... > The only rumored mortal to immortal transition that I'm really > aware of is Tuor, and as discussed in other older threads, I > think that's just a pretty legend. Well, there is also Turin of course in some versions. Interesting that they were cousins / had the whole related H to T names thing going on. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bueb1$3i8_020@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> <38E2924A.D25C4F3F@helsinki.fi> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:32:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954383348 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:29:08 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:29:08 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16349 In article <38E2924A.D25C4F3F@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja wrote: > >I agree. I would suppose that immortality in Tolkiens world doesn't only >mean that one doesn't age or get sick. It means that if you are >destroyed one way or the other you remain in Arda. I think the Nazgul, >as humans had the destiny or gift of men after they finally perished. Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and Arwen). -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:26:20 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 32 Message-ID: <38E2C957.33C41D56@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> <8bsgef$2v0_016@news.uswest.net> <38E283EF.CEDEA90E@erols.com> <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: LbK5uAfJ1AKxTlrjsTUTt0IBeIxruh5NHtVIBvpgOAw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 03:55:16 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16391 Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >> >Except for the bits about Morgoth, Tulkas, Túrin, Fëanor, Yavanna, the > >> >> >SIlmarils, the Two Trees, etc, etc, etc. Other than that, nothing at > > all. > >> >> > >> >> Wrong. The Second Prophecy of Mandos comes from an earlier mythology. > >> >> Tolkien reused names each time he developed a new mythology. > >> > > >> >They were the same characters, with minor changes. > >> > >> MAJOR changes. > > > >Name some major changes in any of the above characters > >that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy. > > The Valar were no longer gods, and Turin was no longer coming back to take his > place among them. This is a circular argument. You claim that the SPoM belonged to a different mythology, and to justify it, you point to changes such as deletion of Túrin's return to kill Morgoth. In other words, the mythology to which SPoM belongs was different, because it contained SPoM! -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:41:08 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 38 Message-ID: <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: LbK5uAfJ1AJ4TVdya+Q6SmOqRywyooPLgzI6Q+La80g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 03:55:18 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16306 Michael Martinez wrote: > >Which is precisely my point. The Silm. is a pretty good approximation > >to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have > >been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last > >Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them. > > THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound up > with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy > editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was > reinventing the entire mythology anyway. I agree with Steuard that there is a good chance that JRRT would eventually have thought better of his "Myths Transformed" changes. IMHO, he would have opted for a more classically mythological approach, and left things pretty much where they were. This is why I believe that the published Silm. is reasonably close to what JRRT eventually would have published. I also think that there would have been a Last Battle prophecy by someone, given his almost lifelong attachment to the idea. As for CJRT, it's hard to see what else he could have done. The state of the material was such that he could not have made a coherent, readable book without serious editing. The only alternative would have been an UT or HoME approach, which is fine for fanatics like us but would not have reached the audience that the Silmarillion did. So I think that CJRT was being a little too hard on himself. He certainly made good on reporting the true state of the material with his subsequent UT and HoME work. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:19:26 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 16 Message-ID: <23013-38E2D5CE-77@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQcsNzOEtwQ8GhMWFRI3e0NUE45sAIVAKU6JbvsNUmQIHjbbUXNhsTOxOff Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16323 Mark Wells wrote: >The Nazgul and the wraiths of >Dunharrow became immortal. Not exaclty. Their Nazguls' "immortality" was derived from their rings. It is concievable, that if they were to be removed from the influence of their rings, that they would eventally die. The dead were under a curse from Isildur, bound to wait until Aragorn came along to free them from their curse. I assume their spirits were still bound to the circle of the world until they aided Aragorn, at which point their spirits were set free, allowing them to finally "die". --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:24:38 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQA2USuuflEfdewHV24BrvslZVdpwIUdn/l5PVDJ35H3+trsAQW8BW54Jw= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16315 Michael Martinez wrote: >The Valar were no longer gods Even though in the later versions of the mythology the Valar had lost their divine status, didn't some groups of men still worship them as gods? --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bulpc$2kk_006@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> <8bmau5$518$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bo5ng$1u0_016@news.uswest.net> <38DFE089.A8D75F57@erols.com> <8bqoqg$ng_014@news.uswest.net> <38E1314D.A4A8886D@erols.com> <8bsgef$2v0_016@news.uswest.net> <38E283EF.CEDEA90E@erols.com> <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <38E2C957.33C41D56@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:39:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954390975 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:36:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:36:15 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16359 In article <38E2C957.33C41D56@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >Name some major changes in any of the above characters >> >that happened AFTER the deletion of the 2nd Prophecy. >> >> The Valar were no longer gods, and Turin was no longer coming back to take >> his place among them. > >This is a circular argument. You claim that the SPoM belonged to >a different mythology, and to justify it, you point to changes such >as deletion of Túrin's return to kill Morgoth. In other words, the >mythology to which SPoM belongs was different, because it >contained SPoM! There is nothing circular in stating the facts. You demanded that I name some changes in any of the characters. I named two major changes. The second prophecy of Mandos belongs to an earlier mythology in which the Valar were gods and Turin would take his place among their children. The earlier mythology was different from the published mythology for many reasons, these not being the least of them. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bum28$2kk_008@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 56 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:43:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954391259 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:40:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:40:59 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16356 In article <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >Which is precisely my point. The Silm. is a pretty good approximation >> >to what JRRT would have wound up with, IMHO. But there would have >> >been *some* changes, and I believe that the reinstatement of a Last >> >Battle prophecy would very likely have been one of them. >> >> THE SILMARILLION is a horrible approximation of what JRRT would have wound up >> with. We know this because Christopher Tolkien has repudiated his heavy >> editorial handling of it and because he revealed that his father was >> reinventing the entire mythology anyway. > >I agree with Steuard that there is a good chance that JRRT would >eventually have thought better of his "Myths Transformed" changes. >IMHO, he would have opted for a more classically mythological >approach, and left things pretty much where they were. This is >why I believe that the published Silm. is reasonably close to what >JRRT eventually would have published. I also think that there >would have been a Last Battle prophecy by someone, given his >almost lifelong attachment to the idea. There is absolutely no evidence to indicate that J.R.R. Tolkien, as he neared the end of his life, was returning to the classical mythology he had abandoned in the 1920s, or even to the pseudo-classical themes he retained into the 1930s. The evolution of Middle-earth in his conception was progressing toward a more sophisticated and rational projection. The published SILMARILLION -- according to Christopher Tolkien himself -- represents only an approximation of what could be achieved with the most fully developed texts, despite the numerous inconsistencies between them all. >As for CJRT, it's hard to see what else he could have done. >The state of the material was such that he could not have >made a coherent, readable book without serious editing. >The only alternative would have been an UT or HoME approach, >which is fine for fanatics like us but would not have reached >the audience that the Silmarillion did. So I think that CJRT >was being a little too hard on himself. He certainly made >good on reporting the true state of the material with his >subsequent UT and HoME work. Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do. He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than the published SILMARILLION turned out to be. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:57:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.242 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954392094 216.161.46.242 (Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:54:54 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:54:54 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16360 In article <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>The Valar were no longer gods > >Even though in the later versions of the mythology the Valar had lost >their divine status, didn't some groups of men still worship them as >gods? The histories are derived from the Elves, and originally it was the Elves who believed the Valar were gods. This aspect was dropped (along with many others). -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38e317d6.262887623@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> <38E2924A.D25C4F3F@helsinki.fi> <8bueb1$3i8_020@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 140-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:02:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 954406815 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:00:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:00:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!140-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16374 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:32:01 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with >respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their >immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths >they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and >Arwen). Finwe? Didn't he agree to live in Mandos until the end of the world? If so, I don't think his case is that different from that of many other Elves who were for some reason never allowed to leave Mandos. (Feanor, for instance.) Tolkien appeared to count living in Mandos as 'immortality'. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38e318e2.263155476@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <8bum28$2kk_008@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 185-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:09:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 954407248 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:07:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:07:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!185-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16373 On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:43:52 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do. >He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more >years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out >SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala >UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent >like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than >the published SILMARILLION turned out to be. And in the end, he did both. He assembled the available texts a la UNFINISHED TALES and published them as UNFINISHED TALES. He assembled most of the rest of the available texts and published them as HoME. But he also wanted to publish a readable, semi-coherent version of the legends of the First Age. THE SILMARILLION as published isn't entirely faithful to Tolkien's intentions, and Christopher _explained_ that it's not. THE SILMARILLION can be seen as something like the Cliffs Notes of HoME. It's not entirely accurate; in fact, in a few places it's thoroughly inaccurate. But it's much easier to read. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:58:39 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.188.224 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954421187 199.179.188.224 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:59:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:59:47 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16316 David Sulger wrote in message news:23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > Michael Martinez wrote: > > >The Valar were no longer gods > > Even though in the later versions of the mythology the Valar had lost > their divine status, didn't some groups of men still worship them as > gods? When did this change in status occur? I'm aware that Tolkien decided not to use the word _god_ but how does that equate to a change in status? More importantly, the Valar were never really "gods", they were always powerful beings created by God. I'm sure someone is going to come up with a list of references to "the gods". Before you take the time to dig them all up consider this: every version in the "Quenta" tradition has some form of this disclaimer, "These spirits the Elves named the Valar, which is the Powers, though Men have often called them Gods". The "Quenta" is a book translated by Aelfwine, a man, who used _gods_ to translate Valar. Dave ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com> <8bue6h$3i8_016@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:19:55 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 954432922 209.139.30.48 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:15:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:15:22 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16378 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8bue6h$3i8_016@news.uswest.net... > In article <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > >In article <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) writes: > >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their > >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This allowed > >Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up. > > Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story. > After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way > Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time. Why is this irrelevant? If there is a waiting period, why couldn't it vary from person to person as needs fit. I am not as up on the other writing of Tolkien as others in this NG, but reading this thread, I have not seen sufficient proof that Tolkien 'decided there was no way Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time.' ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c00ld$1ro_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> <38E2924A.D25C4F3F@helsinki.fi> <8bueb1$3i8_020@news.uswest.net> <38e317d6.262887623@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:50:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954434880 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:48:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:48:00 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16350 In article <38e317d6.262887623@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:32:01 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with >>respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their >>immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths >>they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and >>Arwen). > >Finwe? Didn't he agree to live in Mandos until the end of the world? "Live" is not an appropriate word for it. He was dead, and he agreed to stay dead. And it can be argued that many of the Feanorians probably were stuck there until the end of Time as well, but I only needed to cite a few specific examples. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c00p0$1ro_012@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <8bum28$2kk_008@news.uswest.net> <38e318e2.263155476@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:52:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954434995 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:49:55 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:49:55 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16347 In article <38e318e2.263155476@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:43:52 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do. >>He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more >>years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out >>SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala >>UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent >>like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than >>the published SILMARILLION turned out to be. > >And in the end, he did both. He assembled the available texts a la >UNFINISHED TALES and published them as UNFINISHED TALES. He assembled >most of the rest of the available texts and published them as HoME. He did neither. UNFINISHED TALES is not a compilation of the SILMARILLION texts. And HOME is a study of how JRRT developed the stories, not a compilation of the texts. THE SILMARILLION is simply a book intended to satisfy a long-starved readership, but even in the foreword to SILMARILLION Christopher expresses reservations about the book. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> References: <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com> <8bue6h$3i8_016@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:53:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954435049 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:50:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:50:49 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16353 In article , "Durin VII" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:8bue6h$3i8_016@news.uswest.net... >> In article <20000329102542.02577.00001672@nso-fk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >> (Russ) wrote: >> >In article <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >> >Martinez) writes: > >> >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their >> >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This >> >allowed Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up. >> >> Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story. >> After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way >> Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time. > >Why is this irrelevant? Because it doesn't provide any way for Turin to wait until the end of Time and become one of the Valar or Maiar. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 17:09:16 GMT References: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16366 In article <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>> >Men did however not immediately leave the circles of the world upon their >>> >death. There was a waiting time on Mandos for them as well. This >>> >allowed Beren to still be there when Luthien showed up. >>> >>> Which is completely irrelevant to the substantial change in Turin's story. >>> After Tolkien finished THE LORD OF THE RINGS, he decided there was no way >>> Turin would join the Valar and Maiar, or fight Morgoth at the end of Time. >> >>Why is this irrelevant? > >Because it doesn't provide any way for Turin to wait until the end of Time >and >become one of the Valar or Maiar. > That wasn't the point I was making. I was only stating how *mortal* Turin could still be around waiting in Mandos for the Last Battle. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:50:40 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <8bum28$2kk_008@news.uswest.net> <38e318e2.263155476@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.12 X-Server-Date: 30 Mar 2000 17:50:05 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16389 Said mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >And in the end, he did both. He assembled the available texts a la >UNFINISHED TALES and published them as UNFINISHED TALES. He assembled >most of the rest of the available texts and published them as HoME. > >But he also wanted to publish a readable, semi-coherent version of the >legends of the First Age. THE SILMARILLION as published isn't >entirely faithful to Tolkien's intentions, and Christopher _explained_ >that it's not. A point that should not be overlooked: Only with the publication of THE SILMARILLION was it demonstrated that there might possibly be a market for the HoME that appeals to us fanatics. I think if CJRT had started with UT instead, he might have had trouble getting it published; and if he had originally proposed a 12-volume HoME I bet the publishers would have turned him down flat. Does anyone know if HoME, especially the later volumes, made money for A&U? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> References: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 11 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:17:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954440046 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:14:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:14:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16346 In article <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >That wasn't the point I was making. I was only stating how *mortal* Turin >could still be around waiting in Mandos for the Last Battle. He CAN'T hang around Mandos waiting for the Last Battle. That's the point. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:17:11 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 20 Message-ID: <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kirja.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954440285 22298 128.214.182.25 (30 Mar 2000 18:18:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:18:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16318 Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > > >>The Valar were no longer gods > > > >Even though in the later versions of the mythology the Valar had lost > >their divine status, didn't some groups of men still worship them as > >gods? > > The histories are derived from the Elves, and originally it was the Elves who > believed the Valar were gods. This aspect was dropped (along with many > others). I know that Tolkien stated that Valar were not gods. The still had many godlike properties. Do you define god(s) as being(s) who created the world? In that case Zeus, for example, wasn't a god in greek mythology. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:55:53 GMT References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16365 In article <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>That wasn't the point I was making. I was only stating how *mortal* Turin >>could still be around waiting in Mandos for the Last Battle. > >He CAN'T hang around Mandos waiting for the Last Battle. That's the point. > Not to be obtuse, but why? If Iluvatar says Turin can hang out in Mandos, then he can hang out in Mandos. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were allowed to wait around "somewhere" for their chance at redemption. Isildur certainly did not have mojo to effectuate that curse; it had to come from some other power. Russ Russ ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com> <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:01:45 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 954442637 209.139.30.48 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:57:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:57:17 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16380 I am in no way trying to be inflamitory, but you say can't, but do not say why. We know men's spirits reside there for some period of time. Do we know what the maximum time they could stay? of for that matter could Turin return from beyond the circle of the world. Just asking. Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net... > In article <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > >That wasn't the point I was making. I was only stating how *mortal* Turin > >could still be around waiting in Mandos for the Last Battle. > > He CAN'T hang around Mandos waiting for the Last Battle. That's the point. > > -- > \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org > \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ > //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ > // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:34:14 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38E39E26.BFD969D4@helsinki.fi> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <8bum28$2kk_008@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kirja.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954441309 23291 128.214.182.25 (30 Mar 2000 18:35:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 18:35:09 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16420 Michael Martinez wrote: > > Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do. > He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more > years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out > SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala > UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not coherent > like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his father's work than > the published SILMARILLION turned out to be. You think that the objective of CT should have been to publish something as faihful to his fatherts writings as possible? To me it is great that he published something like the Silm. People can read it and enjoy it, and a novels main objective in my opinion is to either be entertainig or to give people something to think about, not to be faithful to anything, unless the story is supposed to be a true story. And Middle earth sadly hasn't existed, I think HoME type of series without the Silmarillion would not have gotten a very large readership. Silmarillion is a good starting point and might induce some to read Tolkiens less edited manuscripts. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:30:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954444476 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:27:56 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:27:56 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16440 In article <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>That wasn't the point I was making. I was only stating how *mortal* Turin >>>could still be around waiting in Mandos for the Last Battle. >> >>He CAN'T hang around Mandos waiting for the Last Battle. That's the point. > >Not to be obtuse, but why? If Iluvatar says Turin can hang out in Mandos, then >he can hang out in Mandos. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were allowed to wait >around "somewhere" for their chance at redemption. Isildur certainly did not >have mojo to effectuate that curse; it had to come from some other power. The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to stay in Ea until the end of Time. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0ad1$3cc_004@news.uswest.net> References: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com> <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 42 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:37:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954444851 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:34:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:34:11 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16448 In article , "Durin VII" wrote: >I am in no way trying to be inflamitory, but you say can't, but do not say >why. We know men's spirits reside there for some period of time. Do we know >what the maximum time they could stay? of for that matter could Turin return >from beyond the circle of the world. > >Just asking. Maximum time? That's like saying, "Why can't we add just one more egg to the cart?" In Tolkien's post-LOTR discussions of the Fate of Men (versus the Fate of Elves), he makes it clear that Men are doomed to leave Ea, to "seek elsewhere" as he put it. That doom cannot be contravened by the Valar, let alone by the will of Men. Turin simply cannot stay in Ea until the end of Time. That is why, when Tolkien revisited the idea of a prophecy concerning Turin (as explained by Christopher Tolkien in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH), the prophecy was restructured to fit a more "realistic" situation: a return at the end of the First Age, with the result that Turin would finally die as a Man is supposed to die and leave the circles of the world forever. So little remains of the early mythology in the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION that it is really pointless to try and dredge up these older elements. They do not fit because they were not reworked by Tolkien to fit into the new mythology. They have no place in it. We might as well say that Sauron was known as Tevildo the Prince of Cats in teh First Age. He wasn't. But we can speak of the literary evolution which led to the introduction of Sauron (or, Thu) as a replacement for Tevildo in the thematic design of a later mythology than the one in which Tevildo was a part. We can do much the same thing for the Second Prophecy of Mandos. It belongs to an earlier mythology, but literarily there was an evolution in which the theme of a later mythology was going to utilize something very similar. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:38:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954444941 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:35:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:35:41 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16459 In article <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja wrote: >I know that Tolkien stated that Valar were not gods. The still had >many godlike properties. Do you define god(s) as being(s) who created >the world? In that case Zeus, for example, wasn't a god in greek >mythology. A "god" is a sovereign power unto itself. The early mythology portrayed the Valar as "gods". The mythology of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION makes them angelic beings serving the one true god. One of the Valar, Morgoth, feigns godhood, but he is not a god. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0aku$3cc_008@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> <38E13318.907BB9BC@erols.com> <8bsgk5$2v0_018@news.uswest.net> <38E2853E.25A7439E@erols.com> <8bue3q$3i8_014@news.uswest.net> <38E2CCCE.B94B6D73@erols.com> <8bum28$2kk_008@news.uswest.net> <38E39E26.BFD969D4@helsinki.fi> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 29 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:41:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954445104 216.161.46.133 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:38:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:38:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16462 In article <38E39E26.BFD969D4@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Christopher could have elected to do many other things than what he did do. >> He could have deferred the publication of THE SILMARILLION for many more >> years, although he certainly was under a great deal of pressure to put out >> SOMETHING. He also could have simply assembled the available texts ala >> UNFINISHED TALES and published maybe 2 or 3 volumes which, though not >> coherent like THE SILMARILLION, would have been more faithful to his >> father's work than the published SILMARILLION turned out to be. > >You think that the objective of CT should have been to publish something >as faihful to his fatherts writings as possible? I don't say he SHOULD have done anything. I say he COULD have done several things. I didn't say he could or would or should have produced HOME (in fact, he couldn't have produced HOME without THE SILMARILLION -- people don't seem to understand that). HOME is an attempt to explain what happened. I enjoy THE SILMARILLION. I think it's a great book. There is really nothing like it in modern literature. It comes very close to realizing JRRT's early dream of publishing a coherent mythology. But it doesn't represent only the hand of J.R.R. Tolkien. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <8brh3d$293t$1@newsie2.cent.net> <8bsgnu$2v0_020@news.uswest.net> <38e2576f.213625146@news.pc-intouch.com> <38E2924A.D25C4F3F@helsinki.fi> <8bueb1$3i8_020@news.uswest.net> <38e317d6.262887623@news.pc-intouch.com> <8c00ld$1ro_010@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:02:27 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.64 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954446601 206.141.213.64 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:03:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:03:21 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16424 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8c00ld$1ro_010@news.uswest.net... > In article <38e317d6.262887623@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > >On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:32:01 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) wrote: > > > >>Tolkien used "immortality" to refer to the immortality of the body with > >>respect to Men and Elves. Elves did not always live forever, however. Their > >>immortality was sometimes circumvented (and I don't mean by the violent deaths > >>they suffered -- I'm referring to the select cases of Finwe, Luthien, and > >>Arwen). > > > >Finwe? Didn't he agree to live in Mandos until the end of the world? > > "Live" is not an appropriate word for it. He was dead, and he agreed to stay > dead. Tolkien often used the word "unhoused" to describe physical death because _dead_ was not an appropriate word to apply to someone who could still be seen and talked to by living Elves. > > And it can be argued that many of the Feanorians probably were stuck there > until the end of Time as well, but I only needed to cite a few specific > examples. Tolkien's Elves were not immortal in the universally understood meaning of the word. "Elves die not until the world dies" (_TheSilm_ Chapter 1) in other words when the world ceases to be inhabitable the Elves will die. Tolkien calls this state "serial longevity". To the Elves Death is an event that will take place at the End and will include all Elves at once (see _The Athrabeth_). In _Laws and Customs_ Tolkien writes: From their beginning the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The _fëar_ of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Aragorn says: "So it is that Luthien Tinuviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world" (FOTR). Luthien is the ONLY Elf who has truely died. There is no exception made for Finwe or the Feanorians because Death, the state of being dead, means leaving the World not merely being deprived of a body. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:16:35 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 51 Message-ID: <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: in49.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954447450 28439 128.214.189.49 (30 Mar 2000 20:17:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:17:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16412 Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja wrote: > >I know that Tolkien stated that Valar were not gods. The still had > >many godlike properties. Do you define god(s) as being(s) who created > >the world? In that case Zeus, for example, wasn't a god in greek > >mythology. > > A "god" is a sovereign power unto itself. The early mythology portrayed the > Valar as "gods". The mythology of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE > SILMARILLION makes them angelic beings serving the one true god. One of the > Valar, Morgoth, feigns godhood, but he is not a god. Then USA is a god. No seriously I don't think your definition is very usable. In some polytheistic religions some deities serve others and are still considered gods. Hinduism (I am not a hindu) and brahma are an example, althugh their many schools of thought make things more complex. The following is from the Encyclopedia Brittannica online. > The worship of local deities does not > exclude the belief in pan-Indian higher gods or even in a single high > God. Such local deities are also frequently looked upon as > manifestations of a high God. >http://www.eb.com:180/bol/topic?thes_id=513783 I think that the Valaquenta (forgetting for a while that it's author was a devout catholic) can be considered a religious text. And it can be interpreted in various ways, as it's not even written (in tolkiens world) by a god, like The Holy Koran is, for example, from it's own point of view ( I hope you get my meaning: Valaquenta doesn't itself claim to be absolutely true as The Holy Koran does). So some probably consider Eru to be a personal god, some others think that he is just some kind of a universal power etc. So it's not that simple one can oneself define wether the valar were gods or not. If the elves didn't consider them to be gods so what, some would consider even Feänor a god. And don't tell me that Tolkien thought that the Valar were not god's. That doesn't come into this. I am speaking from the storys internal point of view: I don't care even if he was a Satanist. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:56:37 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: batemans.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954449851 469 128.214.182.238 (30 Mar 2000 20:57:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:57:31 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16415 And one more thing. To me a god is an entity that is worshipped as a god. The valar were worshipped by some people as was Melkor or sauron. The fact that Eldar didn't worship them doesn't change that. I mean that whether somebody or something is a god depends on the viewer. Contrary to our gods though the Valar definately existed and apparently didn't regard themselves as gods. This is a bit fuzzy I admit, but that is because tomorrow I have an exam on endrocrinology and reproductive system. And I have had nightmares about micropenises (2cm that is about 0.8" ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 20:57:26 GMT References: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16473 In article <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>>He CAN'T hang around Mandos waiting for the Last Battle. That's the point. >> >>Not to be obtuse, but why? If Iluvatar says Turin can hang out in Mandos, >then >>he can hang out in Mandos. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were allowed to wait >>around "somewhere" for their chance at redemption. Isildur certainly did >not >>have mojo to effectuate that curse; it had to come from some other power. > >The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited >about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to >stay in Ea until the end of Time. Bah! Don't give me the fine print. Tolkien always liked to throw in the occassional exception or two to keep us on our feet. All Tolkien would have to say is that Turin was given a special grace by Iluvatar to remain in Mandos until the return of Morgoth so he could confront and defeat him thus gaining retribution for his family and all Men. Yada...yada...yada. Speaking of time a mortal fear normally spent in Mandos; it's likely Dior's had already passed beyond by the time Earendil came a-knockin' otherwise his case might have come up for review. On that note, it seems that Mandos considered Earendil to be mortal while Elwing he considered to be immortal, or at least didn't mention it. It was Ulmo, I think, who pointed out they were similarly situated. Russ ###### From: "Jonathan White" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:13:33 +0100 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 NNTP-Posting-Host: pm4-00-219.dial.thm.netdirect-online.co.uk Message-ID: <38e4afb2@news.netdirect-online.co.uk> X-Trace: 31 Mar 2000 15:01:22 GMT, pm4-00-219.dial.thm.netdirect-online.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!news.vas-net.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.madhousenet.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!news.netdirect-online.co.uk!pm4-00-219.dial.thm.netdirect-online.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16483 "Tamim Khawaja" wrote in message news:38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi... (snip) > I think that the Valaquenta (forgetting for a while that it's author was > a devout catholic) > can be considered a religious text. (snip) But, you're missing the fact that Tolkien claimed to have been writing a story set in a time before the organised religions appeared in the part of THIS EARTH that he was writing about - Northern Europe. The impression I get is that the whole of the first four ages occur during roughly the same period as the Genesis story happens in Biblical lands. But, because this is supposed to be a representation of the real world, the only way Tolkien could square the existence of the Valar with his own personal belief in a single personal God was to make them into angelic beings - servants of the One true God. As an aside, the only form of organised "religion" that I remember in Tolkiens works (certainly in TH, the Silm, LotR and UT) is Sauron's temple on Numenor - although I might be wrong? Jon ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 21:27:38 GMT References: <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000330162738.24408.00000063@nso-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16474 In article <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja writes: >And I have had nightmares >about micropenises (2cm that is about 0.8" Don't worry. You'll find someone who loves you for you, not the size of your penis. As my grandfather always said: for every male worm, there's a female worm. Russ ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:38:02 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 16 Message-ID: <38E3C93A.C4AB5C0@helsinki.fi> References: <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi> <20000330162738.24408.00000063@nso-cm.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: batemans.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954452337 2611 128.214.182.238 (30 Mar 2000 21:38:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 21:38:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16409 Russ wrote: > > In article <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja > writes: > > >And I have had nightmares > >about micropenises (2cm that is about 0.8" > > Don't worry. You'll find someone who loves you for you, not the size of your > penis. As my grandfather always said: for every male worm, there's a female > worm. > Hey, I wasn't referring to my own. By the way, many "worm species" have only one gender. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0j3o$3qs_004@news.uswest.net> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:05:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.134 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954453798 216.161.46.134 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:03:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:03:18 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16457 In article <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> In article <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi>, Tamim Khawaja > wrote: >> >I know that Tolkien stated that Valar were not gods. The still had >> >many godlike properties. Do you define god(s) as being(s) who created >> >the world? In that case Zeus, for example, wasn't a god in greek >> >mythology. >> >> A "god" is a sovereign power unto itself. The early mythology portrayed the >> Valar as "gods". The mythology of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE >> SILMARILLION makes them angelic beings serving the one true god. One of the >> Valar, Morgoth, feigns godhood, but he is not a god. > >Then USA is a god. No seriously I don't think your definition is very >usable. >In some polytheistic religions some deities serve others and are still >considered gods. Hinduism (I am not a hindu) and brahma are an example, >althugh their many schools of thought make things more complex. The >following is from the Encyclopedia Brittannica online. "sovereign power" within nature, then. I'm not talking about political arrangements. The point is that when the Valar were gods, they were not angels. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net> References: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 41 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:09:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.134 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954454037 216.161.46.134 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:07:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:07:17 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16454 In article <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: >>The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited >>about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to >>stay in Ea until the end of Time. > >Bah! Don't give me the fine print. Tolkien always liked to throw in the >occassional exception or two to keep us on our feet. All Tolkien would have to >say is that Turin was given a special grace by Iluvatar to remain in Mandos >until the return of Morgoth so he could confront and defeat him thus gaining >retribution for his family and all Men. Yada...yada...yada. Okay, name one man from THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, or THE SILMARILLION whom Tolkien (as Tolkien, not as the voice of some long-dead, wistful Numenorean folklorist) said would stay around until the end of Time. He never made such a statement. And I bet half a dozen people will rush in with references to a certain Second Age event. >Speaking of time a mortal fear normally spent in Mandos; it's likely Dior's had >already passed beyond by the time Earendil came a-knockin' otherwise his case >might have come up for review. Maybe, maybe not. >On that note, it seems that Mandos considered Earendil to be mortal while >Elwing he considered to be immortal, or at least didn't mention it. It was >Ulmo, I think, who pointed out they were similarly situated. Both Earendil and Elwing were mortal. It is clear from the fact that both were given a choice, both were Half-elven, and that the children of Mithrellas were born mortal, that the earlier restriction on the Half-elven was carried forward. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:24:31 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8c0k7p$v8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o036.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 954455097 1000 212.205.252.36 (30 Mar 2000 22:24:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Mar 2000 22:24:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16450 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net... > In article <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > >In article <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) writes: > >>The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited > >>about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to > >>stay in Ea until the end of Time. > > > >Bah! Don't give me the fine print. Tolkien always liked to throw in the > >occassional exception or two to keep us on our feet. All Tolkien would have to > >say is that Turin was given a special grace by Iluvatar to remain in Mandos > >until the return of Morgoth so he could confront and defeat him thus gaining > >retribution for his family and all Men. Yada...yada...yada. > > Okay, name one man from THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, or THE SILMARILLION > whom Tolkien (as Tolkien, not as the voice of some long-dead, wistful > Numenorean folklorist) said would stay around until the end of Time. > > He never made such a statement. And I bet half a dozen people will rush in > with references to a certain Second Age event. Why shouldn't they so rush in? (I suppose you are referring to Ar-Pharazon and his warriors btw) And though I agree that Tolkien changed his mind concerning Turin I wouldn't consider it *that* impossible to fit him in. After all in "The Lost Road" it is said that that each man a unique fate is given and each can be an exception to what is rule for others... Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Mar 2000 23:58:38 GMT References: <38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000330185838.22701.00000380@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16472 In article <38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com>, Flame of the West writes: >> So little remains of the early mythology in the world of THE HOBBIT, THE >LORD >> OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION that it is really pointless to try and >> dredge up these older elements. They do not fit because they were not >> reworked by Tolkien to fit into the new mythology. They have no place in >it. > >That applies to things that have been changed, but not always to things >that have been only conditionally and temporarily abandoned. It is >possible that the Dagor Dagorath falls into that category. We know >that JRRT played with various versions of the Last Battle myth >throughout his career. The Dagor Dagorath story would require only >minor modifications to fit the Silm/Hobbit/LotR mythology. Given JRRT's >long-running attachment to the Last Battle idea, it is plausible (even >likely) that his finished Silmarillion would have included some version >of it. > I think there *must* be a last battle. Tolkien's later writings were purposefully moving his mythology to be on basic conformity with "real" cosmology and his christian theology. Christian theology has a Last Battle. I'm sure Tolkien's mythology would have had one as well. Whether Turin would have been there...well that's another question. I think he would have. He was there in earlier version of the mythology and it wouldn't take too much to keep him there. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0qls$3s0_006@news.uswest.net> References: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net> <8c0k7p$v8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:14:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.134 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954461518 216.161.46.134 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:11:58 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:11:58 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16458 In article <8c0k7p$v8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net... >> He never made such a statement. And I bet half a dozen people will rush >> in with references to a certain Second Age event. > >Why shouldn't they so rush in? (I suppose you are referring to Ar-Pharazon >and his warriors btw) Why shouldn't they? Because they would be showing a lack of attention to what I wrote. >And though I agree that Tolkien changed his mind concerning Turin I wouldn't >consider it *that* impossible to fit him in. After all in "The Lost Road" it >is said that that each man a unique fate is given and each can be an exception >to what is rule for others... "The Lost Road" is not a part of the mythology. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0qo1$3s0_008@news.uswest.net> References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:16:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.134 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954461587 216.161.46.134 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:13:07 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:13:07 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16446 In article <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited >> about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to >> stay in Ea until the end of Time. > >Why not? If someone is born 20 years before the end of the world, >chances are he'll be alive at the End. If someone dies three days >before the end, it's quite likely she will dwell in Mandos until the >end of Arda - three whole days. Which has nothing to do with the people born thousands of years ago in the Elder Days. The difference is plain to anyone who is reasonable enough to concede that no man from the Elder Days is going to live until the end of Time. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0qqj$3s0_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com> <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <8c0ad1$3cc_004@news.uswest.net> <38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:17:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.134 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954461669 216.161.46.134 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:14:29 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:14:29 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16455 In article <38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> So little remains of the early mythology in the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD >> OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION that it is really pointless to try and >> dredge up these older elements. They do not fit because they were not >> reworked by Tolkien to fit into the new mythology. They have no place in it. > >That applies to things that have been changed, but not always to things >that have been only conditionally and temporarily abandoned. Excuse me? Show us one credible shred of evidence indicating that Tolkien on "temporarily abandoned" the Second Prophecy of Mandos. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c0qs6$3s0_012@news.uswest.net> References: <38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com> <20000330185838.22701.00000380@nso-cg.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:18:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.134 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954461720 216.161.46.134 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:15:20 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:15:20 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16447 In article <20000330185838.22701.00000380@nso-cg.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >I think there *must* be a last battle. Tolkien's later writings were >purposefully moving his mythology to be on basic conformity with "real" >cosmology and his christian theology. Christian theology has a Last Battle. >I'm sure Tolkien's mythology would have had one as well. Whether Turin would >have been there...well that's another question. I think he would have. He was >there in earlier version of the mythology and it wouldn't take too much to keep >him there. It would take the kind of backtracking Tolkien didn't engage in. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:32:36 GMT References: <8c0qs6$3s0_012@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000330193236.22701.00000413@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16469 In article <8c0qs6$3s0_012@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>I think there *must* be a last battle. Tolkien's later writings were >>purposefully moving his mythology to be on basic conformity with "real" >>cosmology and his christian theology. Christian theology has a Last Battle. > >>I'm sure Tolkien's mythology would have had one as well. Whether Turin >would >>have been there...well that's another question. I think he would have. He >was >>there in earlier version of the mythology and it wouldn't take too much to >keep >>him there. > >It would take the kind of backtracking Tolkien didn't engage in. > Are you referring to the idea of a Last Battle, Turin being present for it, or both? Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:40:38 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8c0s7a$49u$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net> <8c0k7p$v8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8c0qls$3s0_006@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p025.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 954463274 4414 212.205.253.25 (31 Mar 2000 00:41:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 00:41:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16456 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8c0qls$3s0_006@news.uswest.net... > In article <8c0k7p$v8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message > >news:8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net... > >> He never made such a statement. And I bet half a dozen people will rush > >> in with references to a certain Second Age event. > > > >Why shouldn't they so rush in? (I suppose you are referring to Ar-Pharazon > >and his warriors btw) > > Why shouldn't they? Because they would be showing a lack of attention to what > I wrote. Do you mean that you consider that case to be just the overactive imagination of "a Numenorean folklorist"? Quite possible, I suppose. But not certain. I don't think we have any real reason to believe that their imprisonment in those caves until the Last battle is not a "true" event in Tolkien's universe. > >And though I agree that Tolkien changed his mind concerning Turin I wouldn't > >consider it *that* impossible to fit him in. After all in "The Lost Road" it > >is said that that each man a unique fate is given and each can be an exception > >to what is rule for others... > > "The Lost Road" is not a part of the mythology. True. But the philosophy of that statement doesn't seem to be contradicted anywhere else, on the contrary it seems to be verified in cases such as Beren, etc... Thus it could perhaps give us an idea on how Tolkien viewed his universe... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com> <8c0qo1$3s0_008@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:20:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.234 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954465577 206.141.213.234 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:19:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:19:37 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16410 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8c0qo1$3s0_008@news.uswest.net... > In article <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > > >> The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited > >> about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to > >> stay in Ea until the end of Time. > > > >Why not? If someone is born 20 years before the end of the world, > >chances are he'll be alive at the End. If someone dies three days > >before the end, it's quite likely she will dwell in Mandos until the > >end of Arda - three whole days. > > Which has nothing to do with the people born thousands of years ago in the > Elder Days. > > The difference is plain to anyone who is reasonable enough to concede that no > man from the Elder Days is going to live until the end of Time. MM is trying to have it both ways. Here he says that a Man in Mandos would be alive. Earlier he said that an Elf in Mandos is dead. Seriously though, all that we know of the fate of Men is that they depart from the world AFTER their time of waiting. Nowhere does is say how long the waiting period is or if it is the same for all Men. Some may wait long indeed. Also the hall in Mandos where Men wait is the equivalent of Catholic Purgatory. IIRC a person in Purgatory could wait there until the Last Judgment if their sins were serious enough. Finally, and most importantly, Mandos is no longer in the world. If Turin were still in Mandos he would be removed from the world: "the Undying Lands were removed for ever from the circles of the world". _The Return of the King_ Appendix A Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c12co$19s_008@news.uswest.net> References: <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330155726.24408.00000052@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0jb6$3qs_006@news.uswest.net> <8c0k7p$v8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8c0qls$3s0_006@news.uswest.net> <8c0s7a$49u$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:26:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.203 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954469418 207.224.148.203 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:23:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:23:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16445 In article <8c0s7a$49u$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:8c0qls$3s0_006@news.uswest.net... >> Why shouldn't they? Because they would be showing a lack of attention to >> what I wrote. > >Do you mean that you consider that case to be just the overactive >imagination of "a Numenorean folklorist"? Quite possible, I suppose. >But not certain. I don't think we have any real reason to believe >that their imprisonment in those caves until the Last battle is not >a "true" event in Tolkien's universe. No, I mean that Tolkien did not present the fate of Ar-Pharazon as a "fact". "There it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten...." That's a romantic notion, but it's not part of the 'canon' that Tolkien established for his history. >> >And though I agree that Tolkien changed his mind concerning Turin I >> >wouldn't consider it *that* impossible to fit him in. After all in >> >"The Lost Road" it is said that that each man a unique fate is given >> >and each can be an exception to what is rule for others... >> >> "The Lost Road" is not a part of the mythology. > >True. But the philosophy of that statement doesn't seem to be contradicted >anywhere else, on the contrary it seems to be verified in cases such as >Beren, etc... Thus it could perhaps give us an idea on how Tolkien viewed >his universe... There is no instance of any man from the Elder Days living an extraordinarily long life, let alone gaining the kind of immortality that would be required to ensure he made it to the end of Time. Tolkien imposed the limits on himself that you and others seem to be unwilling to accept. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c12fj$19s_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8c0qs6$3s0_012@news.uswest.net> <20000330193236.22701.00000413@nso-cg.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 29 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:28:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.203 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954469509 207.224.148.203 (Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:25:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:25:09 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16443 In article <20000330193236.22701.00000413@nso-cg.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8c0qs6$3s0_012@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>I think there *must* be a last battle. Tolkien's later writings were >>>purposefully moving his mythology to be on basic conformity with "real" >>>cosmology and his christian theology. Christian theology has a Last Battle. >> >>>I'm sure Tolkien's mythology would have had one as well. Whether Turin >>>would have been there...well that's another question. I think he would >>>have. He was there in earlier version of the mythology and it wouldn't >>>take too much to keep him there. >> >>It would take the kind of backtracking Tolkien didn't engage in. >> > >Are you referring to the idea of a Last Battle, Turin being present for it, or >both? The original Last Battle is gone. Tolkien did not restore it to the mythology. There is a hint that the Biblical last battle may be foreshadowed. But Turin is no longer a part of that foreshadowing. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:38:20 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.02 X-Server-Date: 31 Mar 2000 03:37:19 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16489 Said tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi (Tamim Khawaja) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >And one more thing. To me a god is an entity that is worshipped as a >god. The valar were worshipped by some >people as was Melkor or sauron. Can you give a specific example, please? I can think of examples where the Valar are invokes, one at a time or collectively, but that's no more than a Catholic might do in calling on a saint. The only example of *worship* that I can think of is the bearing of first fruits on the Meneltarma in Numenor, and that was specifically in worship of Eru Iluvatar, not of the Valar. Yes, Tolkien did sometimes describe the Valar as "gods", but I can't think of any place where they were worshipped. (Morgoth was of the order of the Valar but was not named among them, so his cult doesn't count. Ditto for Sauron, who wasn't even a Vala at the beginning of Arda.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:53:11 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 14 Message-ID: <11374-38E42127-53@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQ/Miybqgf7Ev3I/BKqBdK1FG1dtAIUWwTRIdOoclmrNRuFEP1mlmONHxE= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16413 Dave Lind wrote: >every version in the "Quenta" tradition >has some form of this disclaimer, "These >spirits the Elves named the Valar, which >is the Powers, though Men have often >called them Gods". That's what I was referring to (specifically the related passage from the Silm.) My point was that while the Valar weren't really gods, they were thought of as such by lesser Men (i.e., non-Edain/Numenoreans). --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:04:47 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <11375-38E423DF-15@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000330162738.24408.00000063@nso-cm.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAr/XY2dsTS52YxcY9d5yrOdaTTGYCFBgjwaYwm45hI1n7NITRnPnoS2Iz Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16416 Russ wrote: >As my grandfather always said: for every >male worm, there's a female worm. Aren't worms hermaphroditic? --Dave ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:22:11 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 33 Message-ID: <38E435F8.5E051BDB@erols.com> References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com> <8c0qo1$3s0_008@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 3uHiHd+WuM7S9LBZYSADCZhfw4OD31kdn1ArPf84ka4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 05:34:32 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16395 Michael Martinez wrote: > >> The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't wait until the end of Time. They waited > >> about 3000 years. Big difference. It is simply not in the Fate of Men to > >> stay in Ea until the end of Time. > > > >Why not? If someone is born 20 years before the end of the world, > >chances are he'll be alive at the End. If someone dies three days > >before the end, it's quite likely she will dwell in Mandos until the > >end of Arda - three whole days. > > Which has nothing to do with the people born thousands of years ago in the > Elder Days. > > The difference is plain to anyone who is reasonable enough to concede that no > man from the Elder Days is going to live until the end of Time. Now, you know perfectly well that I went on to say that: > >Yes, I know, Túrin died long ago. But the difference is one of > >degree, not of kind. In other words, I already anticipated your last comment and answered it. It was intellectually dishonest of you to have snipped it and then posted your comment. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c1hi4$21c_008@news.uswest.net> References: <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <11374-38E42127-53@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 58 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:45:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.203 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954484979 207.224.148.203 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:42:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:42:59 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16441 In article <11374-38E42127-53@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Dave Lind wrote: > >>every version in the "Quenta" tradition >>has some form of this disclaimer, "These >>spirits the Elves named the Valar, which >>is the Powers, though Men have often >>called them Gods". > >That's what I was referring to (specifically the related passage from >the Silm.) My point was that while the Valar weren't really gods, they >were thought of as such by lesser Men (i.e., non-Edain/Numenoreans). They WERE gods in the earlier mythologies. The "Valaquenta" is derived from the original 1st chapter of "Quenta Silmarillion", and it represents the shift Tolkien had made from gods to Ainur. But the old "gods" theme remains in the Second Prophecy itself: $31 Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall came back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. $32 Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in his keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Paluren; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar. (From "Quenta Silmarillion" in THE LOST ROAD AND OTHER WRITINGS) Of course, anyone even remotely familiar with the history of the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION should easily understand the geographical problems this prophecy poses. Valinor was taken away from Earth in the Second Age of the Sun. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Mar 2000 13:25:44 GMT References: <8c12co$19s_008@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000331082544.17590.00000569@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16476 In article <8c12co$19s_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>True. But the philosophy of that statement doesn't seem to be contradicted >>anywhere else, on the contrary it seems to be verified in cases such as >>Beren, etc... Thus it could perhaps give us an idea on how Tolkien viewed >>his universe... > >There is no instance of any man from the Elder Days living an extraordinarily > >long life, let alone gaining the kind of immortality that would be required >to >ensure he made it to the end of Time. Tolkien imposed the limits on himself >that you and others seem to be unwilling to accept. > Waiting in Mandos is not immortality. The fea is always indestructible and that is all that would be waiting in Mandos. At the end of time Turin's fea could be temporarily given a body to finish his role, then move on outside the world. All that's happening to Turin is essentially a lengthening of Beren's time in Mandos. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:05:49 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> <38e4afb2@news.netdirect-online.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.39 X-Server-Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:04:47 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16490 Said whitejj@rebeccaj.demon.co.uk (Jonathan White) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >As an aside, the only form of organised "religion" that I remember in >Tolkiens works (certainly in TH, the Silm, LotR and UT) is Sauron's temple >on Numenor - although I might be wrong? The Numenoreans had an annual ceremony on the Meneltarma of offering the "first fruits" to Eru. It's not clear to me what other worship took place there, and when. There was no other organized religion in the land. "Worship" of Eru was neglected long before Ar-Pharazon took the Scepter, but he actively suppressed it, and then of course allowed Sauron's temple to be built. From the Akallabeth: "But in the midst of the land was a mountain tall and steep, and it was named the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, and upon it was a high place that was hallowed to Eru Ilúvatar, and it was open and unroofed, and no other temple or fane was there in the land of the Númenóreans. ... "... [A]fter the days of Tar-Ancalimon the offering of the first fruits to Eru was neglected, and men went seldom any more to the Hallow upon the heights of Meneltarma in the midst of the land. "But when Inziladûn acceded to the sceptre, he took again a title in the Elven-tongue as of old, calling himself Tar-Palantir, for he was far-sighted both in eye and in mind, and even those that hated him feared his words as those of a true-seer. He gave peace for a while to the Faithful; and he went once more at due seasons to the Hallow of Eru upon the Meneltarma, which Ar-Gimilzôr had forsaken. ... "For the Meneltarma was utterly deserted in those days [while Sauron lived in Numenor]; and though not even Sauron dared to defile the high place, yet the King would let no man, upon pain of death, ascend to it, not even those of the Faithful who kept Ilúvatar in their hearts. ..." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/rec.arts.books.tolkien/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:37:54 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8c2k92$25ck$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <11374-38E42127-53@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8c1hi4$21c_008@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 954520674 71060 140.186.80.8 (31 Mar 2000 16:37:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 16:37:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16433 In article <8c1hi4$21c_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael Martinez wrote: [repost of Second Prophecy omitted] >Of course, anyone even remotely familiar with the history of the world of THE >HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION should easily understand >the geographical problems this prophecy poses. Valinor was taken away from >Earth in the Second Age of the Sun. The question is not really whether the Second Prophecy would have retained in its 1930s form. If Tolkien had chosen to include it, he would certainly have done some reworking and rewording -- at the most trivial level, changing all instances of "Gods" to "Valar", as he did elsewhere. The fact that the Second Prophecy in its latest extant form would have needed extensive revision to be consistent with the later state of the _Silmarillion_ is not in itself a sufficient argument to prove -- to my satisfaction anyway -- that the whole concept had been superseded. (I'm not saying it hadn't -- I'm still undecided on this point -- but that this line of argument doesn't convince me.) By the way, Michael, I hope you won't take offense if I suggest that people are apt to read the wording "anyone even remotely familiar with the history" as patronizing, whether you intended it that way or not. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- Aw, well... I guess some of us talks too much, anyway. --Rackety Coon Chile (Walt Kelly) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c2r6a$1dg_006@news.uswest.net> References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com> <8c0qo1$3s0_008@news.uswest.net> <38E435F8.5E051BDB@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:35:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.217 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954527578 209.181.118.217 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:32:58 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:32:58 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16451 In article <38E435F8.5E051BDB@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> The difference is plain to anyone who is reasonable enough to concede that no >> man from the Elder Days is going to live until the end of Time. > >Now, you know perfectly well that I went on to say that: It is NOT a difference of degree. There is no need for you to falsely accuse me of lying just because I've proven your point wrong. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c2rbf$1dg_008@news.uswest.net> References: <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <11374-38E42127-53@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8c1hi4$21c_008@news.uswest.net> <8c2k92$25ck$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 45 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:38:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.217 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954527743 209.181.118.217 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:35:43 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:35:43 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16460 In article <8c2k92$25ck$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.net wrote: >In article <8c1hi4$21c_008@news.uswest.net>, >Michael Martinez wrote: > >[repost of Second Prophecy omitted] >>Of course, anyone even remotely familiar with the history of the world of THE >>HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION should easily understand >>the geographical problems this prophecy poses. Valinor was taken away from >>Earth in the Second Age of the Sun. > >The question is not really whether the Second Prophecy would have >retained in its 1930s form... Odd, that's how this whole hullabaloo started. I said the Second Prophecy had no place in the world of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. >...If Tolkien had chosen to include it, he >would certainly have done some reworking and rewording -- at the most >trivial level, changing all instances of "Gods" to "Valar", as he did >elsewhere. The fact that the Second Prophecy in its latest extant form >would have needed extensive revision to be consistent with the later >state of the _Silmarillion_ is not in itself a sufficient argument to >prove -- to my satisfaction anyway -- that the whole concept had been >superseded. (I'm not saying it hadn't -- I'm still undecided on this >point -- but that this line of argument doesn't convince me.) You're ignoring the fact that the final form of the prophecy WAS substantially reworked to be consistent with the new mythology. The prophecy was going to come from Andreth, Turin was going to fight in the War of Wrath, and he then would have died. >By the way, Michael, I hope you won't take offense if I suggest that >people are apt to read the wording "anyone even remotely familiar with >the history" as patronizing, whether you intended it that way or not. I definitely intended to be patronizing, given the tone of the posts I've been replying to. Make no mistake about that. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8c12co$19s_008@news.uswest.net> <20000331082544.17590.00000569@nso-ch.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:40:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.217 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954527833 209.181.118.217 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:37:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:37:13 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16452 In article <20000331082544.17590.00000569@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8c12co$19s_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>True. But the philosophy of that statement doesn't seem to be contradicted >>>anywhere else, on the contrary it seems to be verified in cases such as >>>Beren, etc... Thus it could perhaps give us an idea on how Tolkien viewed >>>his universe... >> >>There is no instance of any man from the Elder Days living an extraordinarily >>long life, let alone gaining the kind of immortality that would be required >>to ensure he made it to the end of Time. Tolkien imposed the limits on himself >>that you and others seem to be unwilling to accept. >> > >Waiting in Mandos is not immortality. The fea is always indestructible and >that is all that would be waiting in Mandos. At the end of time Turin's fea >could be temporarily given a body to finish his role, then move on outside the >world. All that's happening to Turin is essentially a lengthening of Beren's >time in Mandos. You're forgetting how I've been distinguishing between "mortality" and "immortality" in Tolkien's world for years. The immortal Elven spirits do not leave the confines of the world. The mortal human spirits do. It is simply not in the fate of Man to wait around until the end of Time. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 Mar 2000 19:28:07 GMT References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16475 In article <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Waiting in Mandos is not immortality. The fea is always indestructible and >>that is all that would be waiting in Mandos. At the end of time Turin's fea >>could be temporarily given a body to finish his role, then move on outside >the >>world. All that's happening to Turin is essentially a lengthening of >Beren's >>time in Mandos. > >You're forgetting how I've been distinguishing between "mortality" and >"immortality" in Tolkien's world for years. The immortal Elven spirits do >not >leave the confines of the world. The mortal human spirits do. > >It is simply not in the fate of Man to wait around until the end of Time. > I noticed your other message making the point about Andreth. If I understand correctly, the Human prophecy was that Turin would return for the War of Wrath and be one of those who defeat Morgoth, then he dies? Of course, that''s really no longer on the same par as a prophecy of Mandos, which tend to actually come true. Rather, the return of Turin becomes more of a mere legend among humans. It would be interesting to see how Tolkien actually handled this. Would the human legend turn out to be true prophecy and if so, where did it come from? (Perhaps another Ulmoian cheat sheet given to Humans from a real prophecy of Mandos) If so Turin's fear would be held back for the now much shorter time until the War of Wrath and not incur the problem of hanging around until the end of time and requiring an "exception" None of this bears directly as to whether there will be a Last Battle, an Armageddon, a Ragnorak (now without Turin, he being long gone from the Circles of the World). I do think Tolkien's final Silmarillion would have included a prophecy of Mandos that there would be a return of Melkor and there would be a final battle. This actually makes more sense with what Tolkien was doing in his later years. The Last Battle of Middle-earth was the Armageddon of the Book of Revelation. Russ ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 80 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:58:12 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.239 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954539849 206.141.213.239 (Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:57:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:57:29 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16406 Russ wrote in message news:20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com... > In article <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > Martinez) writes: > > >>Waiting in Mandos is not immortality. The fea is always indestructible and > >>that is all that would be waiting in Mandos. At the end of time Turin's fea > >>could be temporarily given a body to finish his role, then move on outside > >the > >>world. All that's happening to Turin is essentially a lengthening of > >Beren's > >>time in Mandos. > > > >You're forgetting how I've been distinguishing between "mortality" and > >"immortality" in Tolkien's world for years. The immortal Elven spirits do > >not > >leave the confines of the world. The mortal human spirits do. > > > >It is simply not in the fate of Man to wait around until the end of Time. > > > > I noticed your other message making the point about Andreth. If I understand > correctly, the Human prophecy was that Turin would return for the War of Wrath > and be one of those who defeat Morgoth, then he dies? Not, "then he dies". He was already dead. He kills Morgoth then goes on to the destination of all dead Men. Whether of not he returns from Mandos clothed in in a body, and thus has to die again, is not stated. An interesting point about this Prophecy is that it contradicts one of the texts cited in "Myths Transformed", where Morgoth is said to be "executed" on the plain of Valinor. > Of course, that''s > really no longer on the same par as a prophecy of Mandos, which tend to > actually come true. Rather, the return of Turin becomes more of a mere legend > among humans. It would be interesting to see how Tolkien actually handled > this. Would the human legend turn out to be true prophecy and if so, where did > it come from? (Perhaps another Ulmoian cheat sheet given to Humans from a real > prophecy of Mandos) If so Turin's fear would be held back for the now much > shorter time until the War of Wrath and not incur the problem of hanging around > until the end of time and requiring an "exception" Prophecy, foresight, or a revelation of the future, whatever you wish to call it, comes ultimately from Eru or intermediately from the instruction of the Valar. Everyone should get _Vinya Tengwar_ #39, many of the high pionts in this discussion are made clear in the "Osanwe-kenta". > > None of this bears directly as to whether there will be a Last Battle, an > Armageddon, a Ragnorak (now without Turin, he being long gone from the Circles > of the World). I do think Tolkien's final Silmarillion would have included a > prophecy of Mandos that there would be a return of Melkor and there would be a > final battle. This actually makes more sense with what Tolkien was doing in > his later years. The Last Battle of Middle-earth was the Armageddon of the > Book of Revelation. I think that is probably true, but I don't think here is enough evidence available to be sure. Dave ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:13:01 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38E522E1.DADAD8F0@erols.com> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cNDbkSpom7ib9qa20CoAN7QhzRiHX9P+mItvSxwEw4M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 22:24:43 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16400 Russ wrote: > None of this bears directly as to whether there will be a Last Battle, an > Armageddon, a Ragnorak (now without Turin, he being long gone from the Circles > of the World). I do think Tolkien's final Silmarillion would have included a > prophecy of Mandos that there would be a return of Melkor and there would be a > final battle. This actually makes more sense with what Tolkien was doing in > his later years. The Last Battle of Middle-earth was the Armageddon of the > Book of Revelation. Good point, but it would have been difficult to keep the tone of his mythology when Morgoth is defeated by Eru rather than Túrin. His difficulty in how to reconcile the Last Battle with Armageddon explains its temporary absence at the time of his death. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:19:51 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38E5247B.E5CA68CC@erols.com> References: <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <20000330135553.24408.00000047@nso-cm.aol.com> <8c0a19$3cc_002@news.uswest.net> <38E3D831.8A06005D@erols.com> <8c0qo1$3s0_008@news.uswest.net> <38E435F8.5E051BDB@erols.com> <8c2r6a$1dg_006@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cNDbkSpom7hdIp9gHhgKhycbLF5WZH8sR+Kv4bBt81Y= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 22:24:45 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16399 FotW wrote: >> If someone dies three days >> before the end, it's quite likely she will dwell in Mandos until the >> end of Arda - three whole days. >> >> Yes, I know, Túrin died long ago. But the difference is one of >> degree, not of kind. Michael Martinez wrote: > It is NOT a difference of degree. Why not? In both cases, the soul remains in Mandos until the end of Time. The only difference is the length of the stay. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:20:28 -0500 Organization: Halls of Mandos Lines: 29 Message-ID: <38E5249F.CF98F2DE@erols.com> References: <8c12co$19s_008@news.uswest.net> <20000331082544.17590.00000569@nso-ch.aol.com> <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cNDbkSpom7hF2hMcye6iVbhqBIxxxXaeBEso9h1RFX0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Mar 2000 22:24:46 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16402 Michael Martinez wrote: > >Waiting in Mandos is not immortality. The fea is always indestructible and > >that is all that would be waiting in Mandos. At the end of time Turin's fea > >could be temporarily given a body to finish his role, then move on outside the > >world. All that's happening to Turin is essentially a lengthening of Beren's > >time in Mandos. > > You're forgetting how I've been distinguishing between "mortality" and > "immortality" in Tolkien's world for years. The immortal Elven spirits do not > leave the confines of the world. The mortal human spirits do. Yes, but in the context of eternity, a spirit who lingers in Mandos for ten thousand years or so is still mortal. The lifetime of Arda is an eyeblink compared to eternity. Túrin may linger in Mandos until the end of time, then leave, and be no less mortal. > It is simply not in the fate of Man to wait around until the end of Time. As I pointed out, this is not true, even excluding the case of Túrin. For example, those who die very shortly before the end may still be in Mandos at the end of time. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:01:19 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 54 Message-ID: <38E5ACCF.D7B87EAB@helsinki.fi> References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8bumsc$2kk_012@news.uswest.net> <38E39A27.7F6403AD@helsinki.fi> <8c0afr$3cc_006@news.uswest.net> <38E3B623.771408FA@helsinki.fi> <38E3BF85.259521EE@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: pup.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 954576133 15780 128.214.182.195 (1 Apr 2000 08:02:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Apr 2000 08:02:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16425 Stan Brown wrote: > > Said tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi (Tamim Khawaja) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >And one more thing. To me a god is an entity that is worshipped as a > >god. The valar were worshipped by some > >people as was Melkor or sauron. > > Can you give a specific example, please? I can think of examples > where the Valar are invokes, one at a time or collectively, but > that's no more than a Catholic might do in calling on a saint. I think even the following from Dave Lind is enough, I remembered something like this but didn't have my books. If some men called them gods, some must also have worshipped them, if not then why to call them gods? > Dave Lind wrote: > > > > I'm sure someone is going to come up with a list of references to "the > > gods". Before you take the time to dig them all up consider this: every > > version in the "Quenta" tradition has some form of this disclaimer, "These > > spirits the Elves named the Valar, which is the Powers, though Men have > > often called them Gods". The "Quenta" is a book translated by Aelfwine, a > > man, who used _gods_ to translate Valar. > > > > Dave > The only example of *worship* that I can think of is the bearing of > first fruits on the Meneltarma in Numenor, and that was > specifically in worship of Eru Iluvatar, not of the Valar. > > Yes, Tolkien did sometimes describe the Valar as "gods", but I > can't think of any place where they were worshipped. (Morgoth was > of the order of the Valar but was not named among them, so his cult > doesn't count. Ditto for Sauron, who wasn't even a Vala at the > beginning of Arda.) No he wasn't but he was still worshipped. My point in this whole discussion was just to show that a creator and a god are two different things. Eru was surely the creator in ME, we don't know who or what created this world. But godlihood is not a property of the god, the worshipper (and the worship doesn't have be organised or ritualistic) makes his god. In other words, if I worship and regard the enter button my god, then it is my god: godliness is not the property of the enter button. ###### X-Originating-Host: 205.188.192.53 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 49 From: Sharru-ken Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0232b753.f9273e2a@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca> Bytes: 1290 X-Wren-Trace: eJSxmZiBxozH25iFwITBvYeIiN+Sn9nCw8jO2czY1ZrKy4bbz4c= Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:22:13 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.24 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 954609445 10.0.2.24 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:17:25 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:17:25 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16527 In article <38de9b72@ecn.ab.ca>, buhrger@ecn.ab.ca () wrote: >there's a little bit more about it in HoME 5, but i don't have the books >handy. it does mention retrieval of the silmarils, and turin killing >melkor, if i recall correctly. if i recall incorrectly, it presumably >mentions something else. There was a fragmentary reference in HoME 1 to Melko being killed by Turin, who also becomes one of the Vala (apparently) > >ajb > >Dave Lind (davel59@ameritech.net) wrote: >: I only know of one reference specifically to _Dagor Dagorath_. > >: Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor >: Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. >: _Unfinished Tales_, Part Four, section II > >: It does refer to the Second Prophecy that was removed from the Quenta and >: presumably rejected by Tolkien. > >: Dave > > > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------- -------- >Andrew Buhr buhrger@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca >Savour the Irony! buhra@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca > http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### X-Originating-Host: 205.188.192.53 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 57 From: Sharru-ken Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <04af8a82.fa9dd3cb@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> Bytes: 1723 X-Wren-Trace: eOXA6Onwt/22qun0sfWwzPb5+a7j7qizsrm/qL2ppOu7uveqvvY= Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:27:49 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.24 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 954610072 10.0.2.24 (Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:27:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:27:52 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16534 In article <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com>, Flame of the West wrote: >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> That may be the only one using those specific words, but there are >> certainly several others covering the same events the term Dagor >> Dagorath refers to. I also don't believe there is any indication >> that these ideas were 'rejected' or belonged only to early versions >> of the mythology. Let's see what I can dig up; > >> There are many other references, but I think these show that it >> was a long-lived concept. Nor is there any indication that it was >> abandoned thereafter - though Tolkien began considering drastic >> changes to the mythology in the last two decades of his life. The >> Second Prophecy of Mandos and Turin's part in it endured through at >> least 25 (1926 - 1950) years, specifically the same years in which >> The Hobbit and LotR were being written. > >Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT >rejected the idea of a Last Battle. Instead, it seems he merely >decided it didn't belong in the Quenta Silmarillion. The "Last Battle" does get a brief mention in the "Akallabeth", when the effects of the Downfall on the fleet of Ar-Pharazon are mentioned. Quite which side Ar-Pharazon will be on, is not suggested. > >It makes sense that the Middle-Earth mythology should include >a Last Battle, since that is an important element of Nordic myth. > >-- > >-- FotW > >Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. > > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 43 Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:07:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.85 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 954785077 207.224.149.85 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:04:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 13:04:37 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16590 In article <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>>Waiting in Mandos is not immortality. The fea is always indestructible and >>>that is all that would be waiting in Mandos. At the end of time Turin's fea >>>could be temporarily given a body to finish his role, then move on outside >>>the world. All that's happening to Turin is essentially a lengthening of >>>Beren's time in Mandos. >> >>You're forgetting how I've been distinguishing between "mortality" and >>"immortality" in Tolkien's world for years. The immortal Elven spirits do >>not leave the confines of the world. The mortal human spirits do. >> >>It is simply not in the fate of Man to wait around until the end of Time. >> > >I noticed your other message making the point about Andreth. If I understand >correctly, the Human prophecy was that Turin would return for the War of Wrath >and be one of those who defeat Morgoth, then he dies? Of course, that''s >really no longer on the same par as a prophecy of Mandos, which tend to >actually come true. Many non-Namo prophecies come true. With respect to Andreth's prophecy, it was not intended to be a legend, but a true foreseeing. >None of this bears directly as to whether there will be a Last Battle, an >Armageddon, a Ragnorak (now without Turin, he being long gone from the Circles >of the World). I do think Tolkien's final Silmarillion would have included a >prophecy of Mandos that there would be a return of Melkor and there would be a >final battle. This actually makes more sense with what Tolkien was doing in >his later years. The Last Battle of Middle-earth was the Armageddon of the >Book of Revelation. I have found no indication that he would have retained a prophecy of a final battle. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Apr 2000 20:36:30 GMT References: <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000403163630.22498.00000493@nso-fp.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!pants.skycache.com.MISMATCH!triton.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16606 In article <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>I noticed your other message making the point about Andreth. If I >understand >>correctly, the Human prophecy was that Turin would return for the War of >Wrath >>and be one of those who defeat Morgoth, then he dies? Of course, that''s >>really no longer on the same par as a prophecy of Mandos, which tend to >>actually come true. > >Many non-Namo prophecies come true. With respect to Andreth's prophecy, it >was >not intended to be a legend, but a true foreseeing. Off the top of my head, I can think of Glorfindel's prophecy about the WK not being killed by the hand of man; however, that seems to be more of a "general" prophecy. Namo's strike me as being more specific. I haven't reread the various prophecies but that's the impression I have. So, it seems to me that the specificity of Andreth's prophecy means its either mere legend or influenced by the higher order power. > >>None of this bears directly as to whether there will be a Last Battle, an >>Armageddon, a Ragnorak (now without Turin, he being long gone from the >Circles >>of the World). I do think Tolkien's final Silmarillion would have included >a >>prophecy of Mandos that there would be a return of Melkor and there would be >a >>final battle. This actually makes more sense with what Tolkien was doing >in >>his later years. The Last Battle of Middle-earth was the Armageddon of the >>Book of Revelation. > >I have found no indication that he would have retained a prophecy of a final >battle. I haven't really delved into the intricacies of the various drafts; however, was there any relatively complete draft that didn't include ( in the sense of being noticably absent not just that a revision didn't get that far along) a reference to a Last Battle at the end of time? If a reference to an end of time Last Battle was consistently included in prior drafts and versions, I'm inclined to assume it would have ended up in the final version in some form in the absence of contrary evidence. Merely removing Turin from the Last Battle would not, for me, indicate the entire idea of a Last Battle was rejected. As I indicated above, Tolkien's late-life attempts to correleate his cosmological and theological beliefs into his mythology points, IMO, in favor of a Last Battle reference remaining in the mythology. Russ ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:11:05 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 954796041 209.139.30.48 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:07:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:07:21 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16616 > In article <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > >In article <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > >Martinez) writes: > > > I have found no indication that he would have retained a prophecy of a final > battle. > > Not intending to be scarcastic, do you have any indications that he would not have retained the final battle? Other than the fact that he was reworking the mythos and redid the Turin part into a different prophecy. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:06:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954806763 12.79.25.62 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:06:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:06:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!frnkge1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16578 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > When did this change in status occur? I'm aware that Tolkien > decided not to use the word _god_ but how does that equate to a > change in status? Like you (apparently) I don't believe there was ever any change in the 'status' of the Valar. From the earliest myths they were called 'gods', but it was explained that they were sub-powers under Eru. Tolkien continued to refer to them as 'gods' at least through 1958 and possibly in his remaining fifteen years. If anything I'd say that Tolkien may have taken to calling them 'gods' less OFTEN. Presumably to avoid confusion since the term was not strictly accurate. Nor was the term 'angels' which he also used for them many times. These were convenient labels / translations... not defining terms. They were the Valar. This word is not synonymous with 'gods' or 'angels' or any other term in modern language and never was in Tolkien's writings. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:52:57 -0400 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38E93CE3.516588A@erols.com> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 8Wh8ewz3Q7lJNoD9vS61lzjVSE19Lg5i426siPuSDWg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2000 01:24:16 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16627 Michael Martinez wrote: > I have found no indication that he would have retained a prophecy of a final > battle. How 'bout this? "But Ar-Pharazôn the king and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom." -- Akallabêth, in the Silmarillion So, while you can assert that the specific prophecy of Mandos involving Túrin is not part of the Hobbit/LotR/Silm. world, the Last Battle is there explicitly. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c00qn$1ro_014@news.uswest.net> <20000330120916.29762.00000039@nso-bk.aol.com> <8c05ms$26c_002@news.uswest.net> <8c0ad1$3cc_004@news.uswest.net> <38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:57:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.62 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 954809862 12.79.25.62 (Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:57:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:57:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16572 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:38E3DCB0.67D1966B@erols.com... > The Dagor Dagorath story would require only minor modifications > to fit the Silm/Hobbit/LotR mythology. Actually, I don't think it would require any modification. The Dagor Dagorath story with Turin killing Morgoth shows up all through the time The Hobbit and LotR were being written and published. It was part of the texts which formed the primary material for the published Silmarillion. Thus it was very much a part of the mythology of THOSE stories. Where it would have had to be rewritten / modified would be to fit in with the various changes of the late post LotR mythology. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bue10$3i8_012@news.uswest.net> <23014-38E2D706-12@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <2FbG4.185$xg6.67863@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:36:17 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.211.73 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 954812094 206.141.211.73 (Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:34:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:34:54 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16557 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:LlaG4.10806$TM.663419@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > When did this change in status occur? I'm aware that Tolkien > > decided not to use the word _god_ but how does that equate to a > > change in status? > > Like you (apparently) I don't believe there was ever any change in > the 'status' of the Valar. From the earliest myths they were > called 'gods', but it was explained that they were sub-powers under > Eru. Tolkien continued to refer to them as 'gods' at least through > 1958 and possibly in his remaining fifteen years. > > If anything I'd say that Tolkien may have taken to calling them > 'gods' less OFTEN. Presumably to avoid confusion since the term > was not strictly accurate. Nor was the term 'angels' which he also > used for them many times. These were convenient labels / > translations... not defining terms. They were the Valar. This > word is not synonymous with 'gods' or 'angels' or any other term in > modern language and never was in Tolkien's writings. You have expressed my view very accuratly (and much better than I could have myself). Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8chhjj$1oo_054@news.uswest.net> References: <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> <20000403163630.22498.00000493@nso-fp.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 42 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:24:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.81 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 955009277 209.181.119.81 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:21:17 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:21:17 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16694 In article <20000403163630.22498.00000493@nso-fp.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >>Many non-Namo prophecies come true. With respect to Andreth's prophecy, it >>was >>not intended to be a legend, but a true foreseeing. > >Off the top of my head, I can think of Glorfindel's prophecy about the WK not >being killed by the hand of man; however, that seems to be more of a "general" >prophecy. Namo's strike me as being more specific. I haven't reread the >various prophecies but that's the impression I have. So, it seems to me that >the specificity of Andreth's prophecy means its either mere legend or >influenced by the higher order power. Malbeth the Seer. Elrond's foretellings. Aragorn's foretellings. Galadriel's foretellings. Isildur's foretellings. Blah, blah, blah. >>I have found no indication that he would have retained a prophecy of a final >>battle. > >I haven't really delved into the intricacies of the various drafts; however, >was there any relatively complete draft that didn't include ( in the sense of >being noticably absent not just that a revision didn't get that far along) a >reference to a Last Battle at the end of time? I'm not sure of what you're referring to? There was no complete draft of "Quenta Silmarillion" after the 1937 version. >If a reference to an end of time Last Battle was consistently included in prior >drafts and versions, I'm inclined to assume it would have ended up in the final >version in some form in the absence of contrary evidence. Merely removing >Turin from the Last Battle would not, for me, indicate the entire idea of a >Last Battle was rejected. As I indicated above, Tolkien's late-life attempts >to correleate his cosmological and theological beliefs into his mythology >points, IMO, in favor of a Last Battle reference remaining in the mythology. The second Prophecy of Mandos was dropped. There is no consistency. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:25:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.81 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 955009326 209.181.119.81 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:22:06 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:22:06 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16689 In article , "Durin VII" wrote: >> In article <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(Russ) wrote: >> >In article <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >> >Martinez) writes: >> > >> I have found no indication that he would have retained a prophecy of a >> final battle. >> >> > >Not intending to be scarcastic, do you have any indications that he would >not have retained the final battle? Other than the fact that he was >reworking the mythos and redid the Turin part into a different prophecy. Yes. The fact he changed the Valar from gods to angels, the fact he intended to place Turin in the last battle of the First Age, etc. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> <8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:50:59 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 955030283 209.139.30.48 (Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:11:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:11:23 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!verio.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16707 LMichael Martinez wrote in message news:8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net... > >Not intending to be scarcastic, do you have any indications that he would > >not have retained the final battle? Other than the fact that he was > >reworking the mythos and redid the Turin part into a different prophecy. > > Yes. The fact he changed the Valar from gods to angels, the fact he intended > to place Turin in the last battle of the First Age, etc. I don't see how this contradicts a 'Last Battle', just Turin's part in it. Assuming JRRT decided the Second Profesy as origionally written didn't fit his new view of the mythology, he could still have intended to have a 'Last Battle' but rewote the origional SP and attributed it to someone else to retain Turins heroic end. He may have also intended to rewrite the SP and still attribute it Mandos to address the Last Battle. He could simply have said the Valar and Elves would battle Morgoth with no mention of Turin. I know this tread is going in circles, but while you have given pretty convincing proof that JRRT did not intend Turin to partake in the Last Battle, I have seen no contradiction to a Last Battle, just that he was in the process of rewritting the whole mythology and may not have gotten to the Last Battle or SP thereof. To say JRRT had no intention of including a Last Battle implies knowledge not shown in the post so far IMHO. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:39:24 -0400 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <38ED1208.A63A88F9@erols.com> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> <8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: C0zvlOzi9UqS2TzTTAaf2x4F8maoEAAfdCeijR5ESC4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Apr 2000 23:02:30 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16717 Durin VII wrote: > I don't see how this contradicts a 'Last Battle', just Turin's part in it. You speak wisely, O Durin! No sentient creature can deny that JRRT maintained a Last Battle in his mythology to the very end. Indeed, it's mentioned explicitly in the Silmarillion. When MM refers to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, he is emphasizing the fact that he took Túrin out of it. A minor detail to you and me, but to MM it is quite important. > Assuming JRRT decided the Second Profesy as origionally written didn't fit > his new view of the mythology, he could still have intended to have a 'Last > Battle' but rewote the origional SP and attributed it to someone else to > retain Turins heroic end. He may have also intended to rewrite the SP and > still attribute it Mandos to address the Last Battle. Interesting point. We don't know exactly what JRRT would have done, but it's quite possible he would have reinstated a revised 2nd prophecy of Mandos. > To say JRRT had no intention of including a Last > Battle implies knowledge not shown in the post so far IMHO. Indeed, Russ has sagely pointed out that JRRT would almost certainly have to retain the Last Battle, remade to resemble Armageddon. This would have been part of his project to put his mythology more in line with Christian theology. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8ckbes$3m4_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> <8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:57:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.130 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 955103243 209.181.118.130 (Fri, 07 Apr 2000 05:27:23 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 05:27:23 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16740 In article , "Durin VII" wrote: >LMichael Martinez wrote in message >news:8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net... >> >Not intending to be scarcastic, do you have any indications that he would >> >not have retained the final battle? Other than the fact that he was >> >reworking the mythos and redid the Turin part into a different prophecy. >> >> Yes. The fact he changed the Valar from gods to angels, the fact he >> intended to place Turin in the last battle of the First Age, etc. > >I don't see how this contradicts a 'Last Battle', just Turin's part in it. THERE IS NO LAST BATTLE. Do you understand? It's all just wishful thinking. Tolkien didn't include it in the later stories. He's got ONE allusion to it in an incomplete text, and it is nothing like the Ragnarokian scenario spelled out much earlier. He's got one OTHER allusion to it in "Akallabeth", and that allusion is just presented as folklore, not a prophecy. The Second Prophecy of Mandos has no place in the mythology of THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. No matter how badly you want it to, it doesn't have a place there. No matter how often you disregard the facts and insist it COULD, it doesn't, it won't, it can't. Period. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:15:56 -0400 Lines: 37 Message-ID: <38EE4FFA.D17D6A81@erols.com> References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> <8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net> <8ckbes$3m4_010@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 2e8LexVO7OpRczPWy5GIIkWQ0v8CjRz6+G5sXqfFwKA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 2000 00:44:16 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16790 Michael Martinez wrote: > THERE IS NO LAST BATTLE. Do you understand? It's all just wishful thinking. You are incorrect. "But Ar-Pharazôn the king and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom." -- Akallabêth, in the Silmarillion The "folklore" you refer to is the imprisonment of the Númenoreans, not the Last Battle itself. The Last Battle was *always* a part of Tolkien's mythology, although its precise form was in the process of changing when he died. It is likely that Túrin would not have been a part of the refashioned Last Battle. We don't know whether the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have been restored; it's certainly possible. It is clear that the refashioned Last Battle would have resembled Armageddon more than Ragnarok, since JRRT was setting his mythology more in line with Christian theology. But there's no reason to doubt that the world would end with a Last Battle. It is illogical to assert that JRRT was aligning his creation account with the Bible, but not the account of the end of the world. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8c2re9$1dg_010@news.uswest.net> <20000331142807.29762.00000180@nso-bk.aol.com> <8caml2$2hc_018@news.uswest.net> <8chhl4$1oo_056@news.uswest.net> <8ckbes$3m4_010@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 36 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.33.239 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 955184102 212.151.33.239 (Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:55:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:55:02 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-33-239.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:55:43 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16806 Michael Martinez hath written: [snip] >THERE IS NO LAST BATTLE. Do you understand? It's all just wishful thinking. >Tolkien didn't include it in the later stories. He's got ONE allusion to it >in an incomplete text, and it is nothing like the Ragnarokian scenario spelled >out much earlier. He's got one OTHER allusion to it in "Akallabeth", and that >allusion is just presented as folklore, not a prophecy. > >The Second Prophecy of Mandos has no place in the mythology of THE HOBBIT, THE >LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > >No matter how badly you want it to, it doesn't have a place there. > >No matter how often you disregard the facts and insist it COULD, it doesn't, >it won't, it can't. > >Period. Will you be sent to the electrical chair if it turns out that Tolkien's published works presupposed a Last Battle? Your extreme reacton about a minor point does suggest that something tragical awaits you in such an eventuality as the "existence" of a Dagor Dagorath in Tolkien's fictional world. Öjevind > ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <38DBCBDE.5AA592CA@helsinki.fi> <38DDF9D2.DAEBCCA4@helsinki.fi> <5VuD4.121$nS6.39892@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com> <8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) Lines: 83 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:34:29 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.58 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 955211288 206.141.212.58 (Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:28:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:28:08 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!cyclone.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16830 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8bqpiv$ng_016@news.uswest.net... > In article <38E03841.95DA8839@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > >Thanx! Like Steuard, I had been under the impression that JRRT > >rejected the idea of a Last Battle. Instead, it seems he merely > >decided it didn't belong in the Quenta Silmarillion. > > > > Despite whatever nonsense Conrad may choose to post, J.R.R. Tolkien DID reject > the Second Prophecy of Mandos (and the Last Battle as conceived there). He > completely revised the mythology and produced a new world in which the Valar > are NOT gods, in which Morgoth's eventual return is NOT certain, in which > Turin does NOT come back at the end of Time, etc. > > Eventually Tolkien began to go back to the Second Prophecy and he decided to > work it into the stories of the First Age, but not in any way like the earlier > mythology had it. Turin would return as a mortal man for the War of Wrath > against Morgoth (and perhaps only for the final assault on Angband), and then > he would die again, for good. > > There is no "last battle" at the end of Time in the mythology represented by > THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION. > > The last gasp of the "Last Battle" comes in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" in > THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. WRONG WRONG WRONG What was removed in "The Later QS" was not Turin returning at the Last Battle. All of paragraph 31 was retained with the refferance to Turin "returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world". What was removed was the last two sentances of paragraph 32. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar. > > I take the following citation from the message I posted in December 1999 (and > which is archived on Deja.Com and is easily found at > http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=555495201&fmt=text ): > > THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, pages 374-5: > These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the QUENTA > that belongs with the QUENTA SILMARILLION of 1937 (see V.323-4, > 333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be > 'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentance > concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, > and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In > the cursory corrections that my father made much later to this > conclusion (see XI. 245-7) he changed 'Turin...coming from the > halls of Mandos' to 'Turin...returning from the Doom of Men at > the ending of the world', and against the concluding passage > (including the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he > placed a large X. If you do not refer back to _The War of the Jewels_ you might be left with the impression that Tolkien X-ed Turin out of the whole passage. Dave ###### Message-ID: <38F02019.7F464F9D@home.com> From: Lee Kinkade X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dagor Dagorath (was: Balrog-Sauron relationship) References: <7dIE4.356$nS6.133272@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <11374-38E42127-53@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8c1hi4$21c_008@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 06:16:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.8.114.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 955260998 24.8.114.69 (Sat, 08 Apr 2000 23:16:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 23:16:38 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16917 Michael Martinez wrote: > Of course, anyone even remotely familiar with the history of the world of THE > HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, and THE SILMARILLION should easily understand > the geographical problems this prophecy poses. Valinor was taken away from > Earth in the Second Age of the Sun. So? Valinor may be removed in such a way that one could not normally travel there an a physical sense, (you can't get there from here) but it is still a part of Ea! It is and it exists in a reality that it shares with the earth. There is in this mythology an outside in at least 2 senses. First there is the place out side Ea that Eru and the Ainur sung of it before the world was made and there is the outside that the souls of men go to. I have know idea where they are meant to go and if it is the same sort of "place" as the other outside were Eru is or somewhere else entirely. The geographical problems seem trivial to me. The one difference that really bothers me is the idea of the Valar as gods if this is Mandos speaking. Other than that I find Dagor Dagorath a wonderful addition to the world of THE SILMARILLION. It ties quite well with what was published explaining the reason for a few aspects that I had wondered about before. Please enumerate the other problems with it aside from the whole Valar as gods and the children of the gods business. I am quite glad this was discussed here and now. I don't find it repetitive at all, but then like a hobbit I like to go over things I thought I knew.