From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Balrog-Sauron relationship Date: 22 Mar 2000 23:03:17 +0100 Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 953762597 19956 129.13.201.66 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16037 I've been wondering what the relationship between the Balrog in Moria and Sauron was. I find very little information in LotR, but it's fun to speculate, and maybe somebody can shed some light on this from other sources. The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping out the Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an appearance at the battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could have made a difference. With hindsight, Azog's boasts to Nar after having killed Thror seem to be designed to make everybody believe that an Orc did indeed rule Moria and take attention away from the fact that a Balrog was there. The secrecy worked very well; even Gandalf was not aware of the Balrog's existence. The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig. OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action, or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this helped to wake the Balrog. The Orcs from Moria cooperated in the hunt for the Company with Orcs from Mordor and Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Sauron didn't learn of the Balrog's existence from earlier encounters with Orcs from Moria, and I also find it hard to believe that they didn't establish at least some sort of contact. So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive: - Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the Balrog died in combat against Gandalf. - The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground. - Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly held against his enemies. Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to consider what Gandalf had said. He either did this to get the Ring or he did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil, and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of Durin had was saved). IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of their emissaries... Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring? My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very likely successfully, against the chain of command if any did indeed exist (very much like Saruman tried to do). Comments? -- Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet. The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic diagram. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bbm8p$3g8_008@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 40 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:50:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.137 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 953768899 209.181.118.137 (Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:48:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:48:19 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16014 In article <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de wrote: >I've been wondering what the relationship between the Balrog in Moria >and Sauron was. I find very little information in LotR, but it's fun to >speculate, and maybe somebody can shed some light on this from other >sources. [snip] Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service. The Balrog's video transcript is still extant, and I just happen to have a copy: Hi, I'm a Balrog, one of the last of my kind. I'm looking for a deep, dark, handsome but somewhat devilish kind of Dark Lord type, if any still exist. My hobbies include rooting around the nether regions of the Earth, reminiscing about the old wars, and hunting Dwarves which stray into my back yard. I have a few pets I keep. I just love Morgie's old many-tentacled monsters! I enjoy long walks in the dark, causing tremors in the mountains, and killing anything (any LESSER thing) which gets in my way. I like being dominated by a stronger power, and I'd do just about anything to hang around a rising evil or Middle-earth's next overlord. So, there you have me. If you like what you see, just let GretaBeorn know and she'll help us get together. Toodles! [Flaming Balrog kiss bursts toward the camera] -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:28:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.74.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 953774919 12.78.74.13 (Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:28:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:28:39 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16013 wrote in message news:8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de... > The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping > out the Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an > appearance at the battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could > have made a difference. Doesn't it? "Up the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dain Ironfoot, Nain's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Dain was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him, until old but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear. ... Then Thrain turned to Dain, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?' 'No,' said Dain. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked though the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'" RotK, Appendix A [Heh, extra text quoted just because I'm a big fan of Dain] :) > Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring? > My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very > likely successfully, against the chain of command if any did > indeed exist (very much like Saruman tried to do). Similar to my view. I suspect that the Balrog still considered itself a follower of MORGOTH, just as Sauron apparently did in the early Second Age. As time went by Sauron became more self serving and sought to be overlord in his own right (presumably to the extent that he would have attempted to destroy Morgoth if the other returned). If the Balrog got hold of the Ring it would presumably have followed a similar path. At the time the company encountered it I would guess that it had an alliance of sorts with Sauron, but probably did not consider itself under his command. ###### From: "Greg Hearn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:02:30 -0330 Organization: Cable Atlantic News Server Lines: 75 Message-ID: <8bbu7g$68r$1@nova.thezone.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: wiley-1-6108.roadrunner.nf.net X-Trace: nova.thezone.net 953777200 6427 205.251.216.79 (23 Mar 2000 02:06:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@thezone.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Mar 2000 02:06:40 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!torn!sodalite.nbnet.nb.ca!newsfeed.unb.ca!news.thezone.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16010 if the balrog wanted to remain secret he would have just stayed in the lower depths of moria, but instead he came up and attacked the company, my guess is that he was under sorons comand, as Sauron was morgoths cloesest man, the balrog was more than likely in moria in order to comand tha attacks from there. i have always wondered what would have happened if any of saurons servents got the ring, i dont think many of them would have givein it to him, but maybe he could have taken it from evan the balrog, he was as far as i can tell far more powerful. wrote in message news:8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de... > I've been wondering what the relationship between the Balrog in Moria > and Sauron was. I find very little information in LotR, but it's fun to > speculate, and maybe somebody can shed some light on this from other > sources. > > The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping out the > Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an appearance at the > battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could have made a difference. > With hindsight, Azog's boasts to Nar after having killed Thror seem to be > designed to make everybody believe that an Orc did indeed rule Moria and > take attention away from the fact that a Balrog was there. The secrecy > worked very well; even Gandalf was not aware of the Balrog's existence. > > The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig. > OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the > Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action, > or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this > helped to wake the Balrog. > > The Orcs from Moria cooperated in the hunt for the Company with Orcs from > Mordor and Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Sauron didn't learn > of the Balrog's existence from earlier encounters with Orcs from Moria, > and I also find it hard to believe that they didn't establish at least > some sort of contact. > > So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see > several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive: > > - Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against > Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the > Balrog died in combat against Gandalf. > > - The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed > the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground. > > - Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his > control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly > held against his enemies. > > Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must > have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to > consider what Gandalf had said. He either did this to get the Ring or he > did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil, > and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he > probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of > Durin had was saved). IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the > Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against > the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If > you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of > their emissaries... > > Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring? > My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very likely > successfully, against the chain of command if any did indeed exist > (very much like Saruman tried to do). > > Comments? > -- > Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet. > The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double > logarithmic diagram. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:07:08 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 32 Message-ID: <16655-38D98A5C-43@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAmsdw546wJb3xMNQRRbu6ImjQzRQCFB9p+dAbNotme55eo+jq7CgXTrz1 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16005 Thomas Koenig wrote: >Balrog appears to have been remarkably >passive after wiping out the Dwarven >settlement at Moria. He doesn't even >make an appearance at the battle of >Azanulbizar, where he certainly could >have made a difference. Oh, he was there all right: >Right before the doors he [Dain] caught >Azog, and there he slew him and hewed >off his head...it is said that when he >came down from the Gate he looked >grey in the face, as one who has felt >great fear..."I have looked through the >shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow >it waits for you still: Durin's Bane." Appendix A III, LotR The Balrog was there, perhaps the whole time, watching the battle, probably directing it. Obviously, as a general of sorts, it was most likely content to let the orcs to all the fighting and dying for him. I think all it was concerned about was keeping Moria for itself; had the dwarves tried to enter Khazad-dum, it's likely the Balrog would have wiped them out. --Dave ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (Mithrigil ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Mar 2000 04:51:40 GMT References: <8bbm8p$3g8_008@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000322235140.02157.00002783@ng-fc1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16023 Martinez> >Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service. You have the Balrog's, and I have Sauron's...(My left-brained Grandma gave it to me...) ------------------------------------------------------------ Hello, ladies! I'll never let you say my REAL name, just call me Annatar- 'cause I can give you anything- provided you give some back! I want a lady of a higher race, preferrably Maiar, who enjoys carnage, destruction, and doesn't mind having a "pet" wolf. If you wan't a lord who specializes in deception, I'm your maia. You wan't me to wear the leggings in the relationship? Ask any Noldo, if you can Find one! (evil laugh!) If any of you are remnants of the elder days, and just hanging around, give me a call, baby, and you'll see just what a man with 9 fingers can do for you! --------------------------------------------------------- One word from me- AI!!! -*Mithrigil* ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Lines: 99 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Mar 2000 04:57:34 GMT References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000322235734.03575.00005353@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16029 In article <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de writes: Nice to see a well-thought out on-topic message here. >The Balrog appears to have been remarkably passive after wiping out the >Dwarven settlement at Moria. He doesn't even make an appearance at the >battle of Azanulbizar, where he certainly could have made a difference. There is implication that he was hovering (if he was winged, that is ) right inside the doors; however, you are correct that he did not make his presence felt on the battlefield where he surely might have turned the battle. >With hindsight, Azog's boasts to Nar after having killed Thror seem to be >designed to make everybody believe that an Orc did indeed rule Moria and >take attention away from the fact that a Balrog was there. The secrecy >worked very well; even Gandalf was not aware of the Balrog's existence. > >The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig. >OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the >Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action, >or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this >helped to wake the Balrog. Sauron may have sent an evil "vibe" out into the world that woke up all sorts of things. Similar things happened later in the barrow downs where it was said that the near presence of the Nazgul awakened the barrow wights. >The Orcs from Moria cooperated in the hunt for the Company with Orcs from >Mordor and Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Sauron didn't learn >of the Balrog's existence from earlier encounters with Orcs from Moria, >and I also find it hard to believe that they didn't establish at least >some sort of contact. He must have known of the Balrog and I put him (?) in the same class as Shelob and Smaug. A creature of great evil and power that Sauron was hopinh to take advantage of in his quest for power but did not directly control. >So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see >several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive: > >- Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against > Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the > Balrog died in combat against Gandalf. As above, I don't think Sauron exercised that type of direct control. >- The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed > the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground. Possibly, but not likely. >- Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his > control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly > held against his enemies. This is pretty close to my take on the issue. >Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must >have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to >consider what Gandalf had said. Let's go even further. The balrog KNEW Gandalf. They were Ainur, there together singing the Great Song with Iluvatar. > He either did this to get the Ring I don't think so because as below, I don't think the balrog could sense the Ring that way. > or he >did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil, >and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he >probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of >Durin had was saved). Well, I doubt he could sense it. Gandalf could not sense it, why could a Balrog? > IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the >Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against >the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If >you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of >their emissaries... Remember that Gandalf travelled through Moria before and was not confronted by the balrog. >Finally, what would have happened had the Balrog gotten the Ring? >My guess is that he would have tried to keep it from Sauron, very likely >successfully, against the chain of command if any did indeed exist >(very much like Saruman tried to do). Agreed. Russ ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Lines: 72 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Mar 2000 16:04:45 GMT References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000323110445.03333.00001286@nso-cj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16027 In article <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de writes: >large snip< >So... what does this tell us about Balrog-Sauron relationships? I see >several possiblities, not necessarily exclusive: > >- Sauron kept the Balrog in strategic reserve, to be used against > Lorien as a surprise weapon at time of war. This failed, because the > Balrog died in combat against Gandalf. > >- The Balrog was so traumatized by the War of Wrath that he believed > the Valar would pick him off anytime he showed himself above ground. > >- Sauron didn't trust the Balrog (who was, after all, not under his > control as the Nazgul were), so he was content to have Moria firmly > held against his enemies. > >Why did the Balrog attack the Comany? After Ganalf's warning, he must >have known he was running a great risk in doing so, and he did stop to >consider what Gandalf had said. He either did this to get the Ring or he >did it to preserve his secrecy (or maybe because he was just plain evil, >and stupid :-). I don't think the Ring theory is very likely, because he >probably never had experienced a Great Ring before (the one the house of >Durin had was saved). IMHO, the secrecy theory fits the facts better; the >Balrog may have weighed his chances of getting killed by Gandalf against >the chances of letting the Company go and having his secrecy blown. If >you've spent many thousand years hiding from the Valar and meet one of >their emissaries... > > >snip< My view has always been that the Balrog was much like the Japanese soldiers who had no idea the war was over. The war came about, the earth was upheaved, the Balrog was entombed by falling rock. When the Dwarves uncovered him he just kept on fighting. (and who's gonna talk down an enraged balrog who spent a good portion of his life entombed? Not me. That sucker would be pissed on principle for a long time.) Did he have a strategic relationship with Sauron. Probably not. Somewhere there is a statement that there were many evil things not of Saurons devising and, I choose to read in to that, not in his control either. Obviously a Maia was not of Saurons devising, but I think that Sauron did not need control of the Balrog for it to serve his purposes. A good role for that type of being would be to protect the only known source of mithril, so that when the war comes the enemy doesn't have superior armour. Of course, since the Balrog isn't in Sauron's control, he doesn't get the mithril either, but sauce for the goose..... Maybe the orcs were used to unwittingly contain the Balrog. If the Balrog had gotten loose, there might have been a challenge between the two evil Maiar for who gets to rule the roost. I think Sauron would have won but why would he let his minions even know there might be a choice if he could prevent any desention in the ranks? As to the timing of Durin's Bane being uncovered, I choose to believe that even in a created world there are some things that are coincidence, at least internally, even if the date was chosen by Tolkien to make people go "hmmmm?", and I might even think it was a small detail that passed him by, so that it is coincidence externally as well. Just my (very speculative) 2¢ PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Date: 23 Mar 2000 16:27:37 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8bdglp$2akh$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 953828857 76433 140.186.80.8 (23 Mar 2000 16:27:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Mar 2000 16:27:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16018 In article <8bbfv5$b98$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>, wrote: > >The dwarves believed they had woken Durin's bane from sleep by minig. >OTOH, the timing coincidence between the Nazguls' move to Mordor and the >Balrog's appearance (both 1980 TA) seems to suggest coordinated action, >or maybe this was simply a year in which a lot of evil went on, and this >helped to wake the Balrog. Tolkien makes an explicit reference to this "coincidence" in RotK Appendix A, Section III ("Durin's Folk"): The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world... The Dwarves delved deep at that time...Thus they woke from sleep[2] a thing of terror...: a Balrog of Morgoth. [2] Or released it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "People in small towns have beliefs the way caves have bats." --Ursula LeGuin, _Always Coming Home_ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <8bdl5r$rg_014@news.uswest.net> References: <8bbm8p$3g8_008@news.uswest.net> <20000322235140.02157.00002783@ng-fc1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:44:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.214 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 953833337 209.181.118.214 (Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:42:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:42:17 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16015 In article <20000322235140.02157.00002783@ng-fc1.aol.com>, erk1030@aol.com (Mithrigil ) wrote: >Martinez> >>Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service. > >You have the Balrog's, and I have Sauron's...(My left-brained Grandma gave it >to me...) [snip] You know that first date had to be a hot one. And I guess after a few centuries they had moved on from each other and simply become "old flames". -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Andromeda: http://www.xenite.org/boards/andromeda/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: martins@tiger.cs.yorku.ca (Claude Martins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrog-Sauron relationship Date: 23 Mar 2000 17:49:41 GMT Organization: York University, North York Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8bdlfl$2fb$1@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca> References: <8bbm8p$3g8_008@news.uswest.net> <20000322235140.02157.00002783@ng-fc1.aol.com> <8bdl5r$rg_014@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.yorku.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!tiger.cs.yorku.ca!martins Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:16032 In article <8bdl5r$rg_014@news.uswest.net>, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <20000322235140.02157.00002783@ng-fc1.aol.com>, erk1030@aol.com (Mithrigil ) wrote: >>Martinez> >>>Believe it or not, they met through the Beorning Love Video Dating Service. >> >>You have the Balrog's, and I have Sauron's...(My left-brained Grandma gave it >>to me...) > >[snip] > >You know that first date had to be a hot one. And I guess after a few >centuries they had moved on from each other and simply become "old flames". Old Balrogs never die... their wings just fade away. - Claude. -- -- Claude Martins / Timberwolf / ICQ: 5304950 / York U, Toronto, ON, CA martins@cs.yorku.ca / The Wolf Lair http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~martins/ NOTE : I do NOT use RemarQ's Usenet services due to their ad policy.