From: crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elf brothers Lines: 3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 01 Mar 2000 22:51:32 GMT Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15106 If Olwe was Elwe's brother,Why? Were they original from the awakening? And then why would'nt Ingwe and Olwe have brothers or be relatives?Is there any mention of a central mother of elf kindred? ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:01:46 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.29 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 951958871 209.18.27.29 (Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:01:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:01:11 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15068 Crpnteron wrote in message news:20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com... > If Olwe was Elwe's brother,Why? Were they original from the awakening? > And then why would'nt Ingwe and Olwe have brothers or be relatives?Is there any > mention of a central mother of elf kindred? There was not just one Elvish Adam and Eve, according to Elvish legend there were 144 Elves (72 pairs) that "awoke" at Cuivienen. Since Elwe and Olwe are brothers, they must have had a mother which means that they could not have been among the first to awaken. Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elf brothers Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net> References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 06:02:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.250 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 951976740 207.224.148.250 (Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:59:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:59:00 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15082 In article <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com>, crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) wrote: >If Olwe was Elwe's brother,Why? Were they original from the awakening? >And then why would'nt Ingwe and Olwe have brothers or be relatives?Is there any >mention of a central mother of elf kindred? This is one of those never-to-be-settled issues, but Elwe and Olwe, being brothers, could not be first-generation Elves if you accept as canonical the story about the first generation of Elves and the "scholarly" discussion which makes reference to it. As for Ingwe, he has at least a sister (whose daughter Finwe married). Finwe is the only one of the original Elven Kings who doesn't have any siblings (at least, none are mentioned). But even he cannot be a first generation Elf if you accept the story of the First Elves. Some people are quick to point out that in earlier versions of the histories of the Elven languages (such as "The Lhammas") and the Elves (such as the early "Quenta Silmarillion") Ingwe and/or Finwe are stated to be first generation Elves, but Tolkien changed his mind on these matters. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/ //\\ Xena Channel: http://www.xenite.org/channels/xena.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf brothers Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:34:05 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b3.88 X-Server-Date: 2 Mar 2000 16:30:35 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15113 Said davel59@ameritech.net (David L.) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Crpnteron wrote in message >news:20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com... >> If Olwe was Elwe's brother,Why? Were they original from the awakening? >> And then why would'nt Ingwe and Olwe have brothers or be relatives?Is there >any >> mention of a central mother of elf kindred? > >There was not just one Elvish Adam and Eve, according to Elvish legend there >were 144 Elves (72 pairs) that "awoke" at Cuivienen. Since Elwe and Olwe are >brothers, they must have had a mother which means that they could not have been >among the first to awaken. We discussed this within the past few weeks. "Brothers" does not necessarily imply biological kinship. But if it did, then ask yourself: what became of their supposed common mother? Why was she not mentioned anywhere in the Silmarillion? There is no indication of even the hint of loss on the brothers, whereas Feanor's loss of his father was a major influence in his life. Surely if Elwe and Olwe had had a mother and lost her, that would have affected them enough that we would have been told. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:12:50 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.211.16 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 952038734 206.141.211.16 (Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:12:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:12:14 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15143 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.1328620c77fc626498ad05@news.mindspring.com... > Said davel59@ameritech.net (David L.) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >Crpnteron wrote in message > >news:20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com... > >> If Olwe was Elwe's brother,Why? Were they original from the awakening? > >> And then why would'nt Ingwe and Olwe have brothers or be relatives?Is there > >any > >> mention of a central mother of elf kindred? > > > >There was not just one Elvish Adam and Eve, according to Elvish legend there > >were 144 Elves (72 pairs) that "awoke" at Cuivienen. Since Elwe and Olwe are > >brothers, they must have had a mother which means that they could not have been > >among the first to awaken. > > We discussed this within the past few weeks. "Brothers" does not > necessarily imply biological kinship. > > But if it did, then ask yourself: what became of their supposed > common mother? Why was she not mentioned anywhere in the > Silmarillion? There is no indication of even the hint of loss on > the brothers, whereas Feanor's loss of his father was a major > influence in his life. Surely if Elwe and Olwe had had a mother > and lost her, that would have affected them enough that we would > have been told. I can see four holes in your argument. 1. Many mothers and wives were not mentioned unless they directly affected the story. We never hear of the mother of Imrahil. More importantly we never hear of Sam's mother. Maybe Samwise wasn't really the progeny of the Gaffer. It might have been some other kind of father/son relationship. 2. Why do you assume that the mother of Olwe and Elwe was lost. If I was going to assume anything it would be that she went over Sea with Olwe or stayed in Beleriand with Elmo until Thingol came out of his trance. Whoever was in effect "motherless" would at least be comforted in the knowledge that dear old mum was safely in the hands of the other brother. Also, in this scenario, Elwe and Olwe were much older when one or the other was deprived of mum than Feanor was when Miriel "died", so it's not the same situation at all. 3. If Elmo Olwe and Elwe were not biological brothers than how can Celeborn be Thingol's kinsman? How could Earwen's children be Thingol's kinsmen which was an important plot element in the Silmarillion? And if they weren't brothers why was Tolkien concerned about the close relationship between Nimloth and Dior? 4. There is no other example of two men explicitly being called "brothers" any where in Tolkien's writings unless they were in fact brothers. Dave ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf brothers Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:07:16 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 30 Message-ID: <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> <89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p226.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 952103251 26572 212.205.253.226 (3 Mar 2000 17:07:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2000 17:07:31 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15180 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net... > In article <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com>, crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) wrote: > >If Olwe was Elwe's brother,Why? Were they original from the awakening? > >And then why would'nt Ingwe and Olwe have brothers or be relatives?Is there any > >mention of a central mother of elf kindred? > > This is one of those never-to-be-settled issues, but Elwe and Olwe, being > brothers, could not be first-generation Elves if you accept as canonical the > story about the first generation of Elves and the "scholarly" discussion which > makes reference to it. > > As for Ingwe, he has at least a sister (whose daughter Finwe married). Finwe > is the only one of the original Elven Kings who doesn't have any siblings (at > least, none are mentioned). But even he cannot be a first generation Elf if > you accept the story of the First Elves. Why can't Finwe be a first generation elf? Aris Katsaris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elf brothers Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <89qf48$3r0_010@news.uswest.net> References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> <89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net> <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 07:48:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.240 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 952155902 207.224.148.240 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:45:02 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:45:02 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15155 In article <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net... >> This is one of those never-to-be-settled issues, but Elwe and Olwe, being >> brothers, could not be first-generation Elves if you accept as canonical >> the story about the first generation of Elves and the "scholarly" >> discussion which makes reference to it. >> >> As for Ingwe, he has at least a sister (whose daughter Finwe married). >> Finwe is the only one of the original Elven Kings who doesn't have any >> siblings (at least, none are mentioned). But even he cannot be a first >> generation Elf if you accept the story of the First Elves. > >Why can't Finwe be a first generation elf? Why must he be? For someone who was "hot to trot", so to speak, he would have waited an awfully long time to start begetting children. But, "if you accept the story of the First Elves", then Finwe was not one of the first three Elves to awaken. No, that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the OTHER Elves, but there seems no reason to elevate Finwe over Tata. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:32:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 952176757 12.79.27.150 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:32:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:32:37 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15156 "David L." wrote in message news:izCv4.1967$5a3.2943@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > 1. Many mothers and wives were not mentioned unless they directly > affected the story. We never hear of the mother of Imrahil. More > importantly we never hear of Sam's mother. Maybe Samwise wasn't > really the progeny of the Gaffer. It might have been some other > kind of father/son relationship. Sam's mother was Bell Goodchild > 4. There is no other example of two men explicitly being called > "brothers" any where in Tolkien's writings unless they were in > fact brothers. Melkor and Manwe ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:29:00 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.10 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 952187301 206.141.212.10 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:28:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:28:21 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15144 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:Vf8w4.1979$B37.166416@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "David L." wrote in message > news:izCv4.1967$5a3.2943@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > 1. Many mothers and wives were not mentioned unless they directly > > affected the story. We never hear of the mother of Imrahil. More > > importantly we never hear of Sam's mother. Maybe Samwise wasn't > > really the progeny of the Gaffer. It might have been some other > > kind of father/son relationship. > > Sam's mother was Bell Goodchild My point is that she was not mentioned in the narritive. Many people in LOTR and The Silm are of unknown lineage. There is no need to assume that because the mother of Elwe is never named he didn't have one. > > > 4. There is no other example of two men explicitly being called > > "brothers" any where in Tolkien's writings unless they were in > > fact brothers. > > Melkor and Manwe Ah yes! I didn't include the relationship of Manwe and Melkor because they are not men in the same sense that male Elves and Men are, and the relationship of Manwe and Melkor is qualified by the words "in the mind of Iluvatar". It is self evident that Manwe and Melkor didn't have a mother and could only be "brethren in the mind of Iluvatar". What exactly is meant by calling them brothers eludes me. It must be that they were conceived of as somehow being alike, but how? They were not alike in mood or temperament. They didn't share the same powers or have the same desires. Tolkien noted that the word "spouse" used to describe of the relationship of a Vala and Valie was not a sexual partnership but "only an association". Maybe the word "brother" in this case is used in the same way. Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 22:44:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.113.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 952209890 12.78.113.81 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 22:44:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 22:44:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15224 "David L." wrote in message news:FQaw4.280$le1.17633@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > Many people in LOTR and The Silm are of unknown lineage. There is > no need to assume that because the mother of Elwe is never named > he didn't have one. Oh, your general point here is quite valid. I was disagreeing with one of your specific examples; we know who Sam's mother was and that he was the son of the Gaffer in the traditional sense. > Ah yes! I didn't include the relationship of Manwe and Melkor > because they are not men in the same sense that male Elves and > Men are, and the relationship of Manwe and Melkor is qualified by > the words "in the mind of Iluvatar". It is self evident that > Manwe and Melkor didn't have a mother and could only be "brethren > in the mind of Iluvatar". Agreed. However, it is also self-evident that the first Elves did not have a mother. As such it is arguable that Elves known to be of very ancient origin could be 'first Elves' and still be brothers 'in the mind of Iluvatar'. There is actually an elven term for this sort of 'kinship of nature' - which might also be taken to imply that 'brothers' need not neccessarily be of the tradtional sort. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elf brothers Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 01:08:28 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 44 Message-ID: <89s51q$9kt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> <89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net> <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <89qf48$3r0_010@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a118.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 952211322 9885 212.205.240.118 (4 Mar 2000 23:08:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2000 23:08:42 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15222 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:89qf48$3r0_010@news.uswest.net... > In article <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message > >news:89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net... > >> This is one of those never-to-be-settled issues, but Elwe and Olwe, being > >> brothers, could not be first-generation Elves if you accept as canonical > >> the story about the first generation of Elves and the "scholarly" > >> discussion which makes reference to it. > >> > >> As for Ingwe, he has at least a sister (whose daughter Finwe married). > >> Finwe is the only one of the original Elven Kings who doesn't have any > >> siblings (at least, none are mentioned). But even he cannot be a first > >> generation Elf if you accept the story of the First Elves. > > > >Why can't Finwe be a first generation elf? > > Why must he be? For someone who was "hot to trot", so to speak, he would have > waited an awfully long time to start begetting children. Harumph. That's very circumstantial, and Tolkien's ideas about the time between birth and procreation have been quite inconsistent. > But, "if you accept the story of the First Elves", then Finwe was not one of > the first three Elves to awaken. No, that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the > OTHER Elves, but there seems no reason to elevate Finwe over Tata. I thought that 'first generation elf' meant someone who wasn't born but rather 'awakened'. I never thought it to mean "one of the very first three elves ever". Aris Katsaris ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:21:50 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.96 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 952212074 206.141.212.96 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 18:21:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 18:21:14 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15212 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:Clgw4.5748$vd7.251655@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "David L." wrote in message > news:FQaw4.280$le1.17633@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > Many people in LOTR and The Silm are of unknown lineage. There is > > no need to assume that because the mother of Elwe is never named > > he didn't have one. > > Oh, your general point here is quite valid. I was disagreeing with > one of your specific examples; we know who Sam's mother was and > that he was the son of the Gaffer in the traditional sense. > > > Ah yes! I didn't include the relationship of Manwe and Melkor > > because they are not men in the same sense that male Elves and > > Men are, and the relationship of Manwe and Melkor is qualified by > > the words "in the mind of Iluvatar". It is self evident that > > Manwe and Melkor didn't have a mother and could only be "brethren > > in the mind of Iluvatar". > > Agreed. However, it is also self-evident that the first Elves did > not have a mother. So far I agree. > As such it is arguable that Elves known to be > of very ancient origin could be 'first Elves' and still be brothers > 'in the mind of Iluvatar'. Here you have lost me. The relationship of Manwe and Melkor is qualified; they were brothers but "brothers in the mind if Iluvatar". Elwe and Olwe are called brothers. It is not qualified. Therefore the literal meaning is most likely to be true. They were brothers, i.e. the sons of the same mother and father. > There is actually an elven term for > this sort of 'kinship of nature' - which might also be taken to > imply that 'brothers' need not neccessarily be of the tradtional > sort. Is there? The Etymologies has a word for "sworn brother, associate" _otorno_, but I can't think of anything close to what you are discribing. ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> <89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net> <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <89qf48$3r0_010@news.uswest.net> <89s51q$9kt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:47:08 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.96 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 952213592 206.141.212.96 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 18:46:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 18:46:32 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15216 Aris Katsaris wrote in message news:89s51q$9kt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr... > > > > But, "if you accept the story of the First Elves", then Finwe was not one > of > > the first three Elves to awaken. No, that doesn't mean he wasn't one of > the > > OTHER Elves, but there seems no reason to elevate Finwe over Tata. > > I thought that 'first generation elf' meant someone who wasn't born but > rather > 'awakened'. I never thought it to mean "one of the very first three elves > ever". Of course you are right. But the only Elves we know who could possibly be of the first generation (beside Imin, Tata, Enel, and their wives) are Finwe and Cirdan. Elwe and Ingwe are said to have siblings, therefore they had parents. Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elf brothers Organization: Science Fiction and Fantasy: Xenite.Org Message-ID: <89s8qj$27g_006@news.uswest.net> References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> <89l05n$23o_012@news.uswest.net> <89orgj$puc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <89qf48$3r0_010@news.uswest.net> <89s51q$9kt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 37 Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 00:13:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.80 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 952214967 209.181.118.80 (Sat, 04 Mar 2000 18:09:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 18:09:27 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15221 In article <89s51q$9kt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message >news:89qf48$3r0_010@news.uswest.net... >> >> As for Ingwe, he has at least a sister (whose daughter Finwe married). >> >> Finwe is the only one of the original Elven Kings who doesn't have any >> >> siblings (at least, none are mentioned). But even he cannot be a first >> >> generation Elf if you accept the story of the First Elves. >> > >> >Why can't Finwe be a first generation elf? >> >> Why must he be? For someone who was "hot to trot", so to speak, he would >> have waited an awfully long time to start begetting children. > >Harumph. That's very circumstantial, and Tolkien's ideas about the time >between birth and procreation have been quite inconsistent. > >> But, "if you accept the story of the First Elves", then Finwe was not one >> of the first three Elves to awaken. No, that doesn't mean he wasn't one >> of the OTHER Elves, but there seems no reason to elevate Finwe over Tata. > >I thought that 'first generation elf' meant someone who wasn't born but >rather 'awakened'. I never thought it to mean "one of the very first three elves >ever". That's usually what people take it to mean, and that's why I wrote what I wrote above. i.e., people assume Finwe was one of the first three to awaken. "First generation elf", as used by me, means "someone who wasn't born but rather 'awakened'". I just don't see any reason to assume that Finwe was a first generation Elf. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/ //\\ Star Wars: http://www.xenite.org/movies/phantom_menace/ // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 00:53:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 952217616 12.78.71.18 (Sun, 05 Mar 2000 00:53:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 00:53:36 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15226 "David L." wrote in message news:KTgw4.338$le1.17895@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > Here you have lost me. The relationship of Manwe and Melkor is > qualified; they were brothers but "brothers in the mind if > Iluvatar". Sometimes. Other times they are just called brothers. > Elwe and Olwe are called brothers. It is not qualified. Therefore > the literal meaning is most likely to be true. They were > brothers, i.e. the sons of the same mother and father. As it happens I agree... that IS what I would consider the most likely meaning. However, if you note I said that it was "arguable" that there "could" be another meaning... that they were brothers in the mind of Iluvatar, like Manwe and Melkor. > Is there? The Etymologies has a word for "sworn brother, > associate" _otorno_, but I can't think of anything close to what > you are discribing. As you note, various terms under 'tor' and 'thel' refer to brothers/sisters not related by blood. I thought I recalled another term relating specifically to spiritual relationship, but as I cannot find it I have to wonder if I wasn't misremembering these other terms. In any case... an example of 'brothers' without blood relation. ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000301175132.01171.00002048@ng-fj1.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: Elf brothers Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:57:13 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.188.154 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 952265775 199.179.188.154 (Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:16:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:16:15 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:15213 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:keiw4.5963$vd7.265905@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "David L." wrote in message > news:KTgw4.338$le1.17895@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > Here you have lost me. The relationship of Manwe and Melkor is > > qualified; they were brothers but "brothers in the mind if > > Iluvatar". > > Sometimes. Other times they are just called brothers. > > > Elwe and Olwe are called brothers. It is not qualified. Therefore > > the literal meaning is most likely to be true. They were > > brothers, i.e. the sons of the same mother and father. > > As it happens I agree... that IS what I would consider the most > likely meaning. However, if you note I said that it was "arguable" > that there "could" be another meaning... that they were brothers in > the mind of Iluvatar, like Manwe and Melkor. > > > Is there? The Etymologies has a word for "sworn brother, > > associate" _otorno_, but I can't think of anything close to what > > you are discribing. > > As you note, various terms under 'tor' and 'thel' refer to > brothers/sisters not related by blood. I thought I recalled > another term relating specifically to spiritual relationship, but > as I cannot find it I have to wonder if I wasn't misremembering > these other terms. In any case... an example of 'brothers' without > blood relation. Are you referring to the use of the word "spouse" in the Annals of Aman? It is said that it means "only an association" because the Valar do not have physical bodies and therefore cannot do the horizontal boogie. See _Morgoth's Ring_ pg.69. Dave