From: James Keller Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Greetings...gotta question(s) for everyone... Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 23:57:06 +0900 Organization: City Telecom Kanagawa InterNetServices Lines: 53 Message-ID: <38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com> Reply-To: shade@gol.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.16.254.253 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.ctktv.ne.jp 951609606 35540 172.16.254.253 (27 Feb 2000 00:00:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.ctktv.ne.jp NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2000 00:00:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newssvt07.tk!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsgate1.web.ad.jp!nspixp2!newsgw5.odn.ne.jp!news01.directint.co.jp!news.ctktv.ne.jp!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14891 Greetings from Japan, I tried posting in the .games.tolkien.rpg group but it seems to have died. So maybe some of you can give some opinions on what I have allowed to happen in my Middle Earth campaign. I'm not going to go into a lot about the campaign so far as I've just finished guiding them through their second session. A friend of mine is leaving soon and I allowed him to be an Uruk-hai who has broken from his bonds as a sergeant in the Dark Lord's service. He hasn't escaped completely as I'm using the corruption system and his character began with a lot more than the suggested amount of zero (but he doesn't know this) for beginning chars. His idea is that some spark of reasoning sprung forth into Zemarburz's mind. His people, he gathered, are a collective group of slaves with an inherent caste system. Having nothing to do with this (but finding it hard to completely escape these 'urges'), he deserted his post at Cameth Brin and set about learning (as best he can) about the people he was bred to destroy. This has given him a life of loneliness with fits of uncontrollable rage. There is a lot more roleplaying involved around this concept than what I've written (I can't do it justice...it just felt alright and in the spirit of the game). In fact at one point he was defending the group (that was mostly asleep at the camp site) from a would be assassin and having won the upper hand in the fight when he cut the jugular of the Orc and was sprayed across the face with blood. I judged that such an occurrence (especially since he was already worked up in combat) would push him over the edge and force a possible cannibalistic counter attack having tasted the blood. He failed the temptation and subsequently ripped the Orc's neck open with a bite attack. This scene was only witnessed by two others (a PC and an NPC). From this point all I can say is that it was roleplayed very well (some of the best in my 17 years of gaming). I guess what I'm trying to ask is would this be permissible in Tolkien's realm? How off the mark or acceptable is this (in any opinions). Should I have allowed this. From this point I'm going run his PC as an NPC until the time when his goals and desired take him away from the group. I just want to hear some the 'purist' views and/or get some justification on something like this happening. Can an Orc (Uruk or not) feel something like this? I've read all about how Orcs came from corrupted Elves and bred over the ages...how about some of them trying to revert back and resist their heritage? Unlikely...I know, but this is roleplaying after all and weird things can happen. Please, I'd like to hear what you think. Take it easy, J. Keller PS. I hope I don't get majorly flamed on this (for it being perceived as blatantly OT). ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com> Subject: Re: Greetings...gotta question(s) for everyone... Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:48:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.68.67.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 951583697 12.68.67.204 (Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:48:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:48:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!n00zpHeed.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news.gigabell.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14884 James Keller wrote in message news:38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com... > I guess what I'm trying to ask is would this be permissible in > Tolkien's realm? How off the mark or acceptable is this (in any > opinions). > I just want to hear some the 'purist' views and/or get some > justification on something like this happening. Can an Orc (Uruk > or not) feel something like this? I've read all about how Orcs > came from corrupted Elves and bred over the ages...how about some > of them trying to revert back and resist their heritage? Well, first off - the bit about Orcs being corrupted Elves seems to have been Tolkien's early conception of their origins, but in later years he went to considerable lengths to try to redefine them as beastial, animatronic, or human in origin. However, he never seems to have been able to fully excise the elvish element and in any case does not appear to have settled on any definitive answer. So, this origin is as good as any. That aside, JRRT seems to have felt that in >theory< Orcs could be redeemed, but that in practice this was virtually impossible. They were too corrupted and lived in conditions too cruel to have much chance of ever clawing their way back to any sort of morality. Some quotations; "They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)" Letters #153 "...Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that Orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sorts and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable..." Letters #268 ###### From: "Rick" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com> Subject: Re: Greetings...gotta question(s) for everyone... Lines: 138 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <0d2u4.10499$Py3.177365@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 05:01:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.180.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 951627708 24.218.180.221 (Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:01:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:01:48 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14916 The one thing that most caught my 'sense of Tolkien sensor' reading your post was the part where he set about learning about those he was bred to destroy. This point, to me, seems less supportable than any reasoning he might have had to 'rebel' against the Dark Lord in the first place. Now, if seem to also intend that this Uruk-hai also rebelled against the value system Sauron (or previously, Melkor) instilled in them. Why should I imagine he would want to adopt the moral system of elves or humans, who he no doubt would have been raised to believe ate babies, and tortured orcs for sport. How would he come to any information that would have led him to imagine elves, dwarves, or humans were worthy of emulation? His only encounters with them would presumably have come from battlefields, where no orc would have expected, nor likely have experienced compassionate treatment. I suppose that ultimately we have to voluntarily suspend disbelief (as surely would have any non-orcs he would have encountered after his escape) that an orc was in any way redeemable in the first place, since Tolkien provides no overt support or mechanism for such a change of 'heart.' I think his drinking the blood of his victim a reasonable 'resort to character' act but I guess I just have to take your word for it that he ever came to form the kind of relationships with the other members of the group to feel motivated to defend them in the first place. If you want to find literary justifications, I'd start there. If I were in your shoes, I might have gone for a half-orc escaping from some bizarre cross-breeding program, but that would almost take the same leap of faith that Sauron or Saruman did that, and if I recall, Tolkien pretty much left those ideas as speculative, and never confirmed them within the text anyway. I've seen, and engaged in, discussions here about the nature of orcs, and the literary treatment of Free Will in Tolkien, and I'm not gonna tell you one way or another whether your exrapolations are or are not canonical, simply because you start with an assumption never explicity addressed by Tolkien. However, it did make for a good story, and presented a vivid image to my mind, esp. during the gurgling, slavering, snarling part about biting the neck of his prey for blood. Or, did I just imagine all those icky noises in my head? ;) Rick "James Keller" wrote in message news:38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com... > Greetings from Japan, > > I tried posting in the .games.tolkien.rpg group but it seems to have > died. So maybe some of you can give some opinions on what I have > allowed to happen in my Middle Earth campaign. > > I'm not going to go into a lot about the campaign so far as I've just > finished guiding them through their second session. A friend of mine is > leaving soon and I allowed him to be an Uruk-hai who has broken from his > bonds as a sergeant in the Dark Lord's service. He hasn't escaped > completely as I'm using the corruption system and his character began > with a lot more than the suggested amount of zero (but he doesn't know > this) for beginning chars. His idea is that some spark of reasoning > sprung forth into Zemarburz's mind. His people, he gathered, are a > collective group of slaves with an inherent caste system. Having > nothing to do with this (but finding it hard to completely escape these > 'urges'), he deserted his post at Cameth Brin and set about learning (as > best he can) about the people he was bred to destroy. This has given him > a life of loneliness with fits of uncontrollable rage. There is a lot > more roleplaying involved around this concept than what I've written (I > can't do it justice...it just felt alright and in the spirit of the > game). In fact at one point he was defending the group (that was mostly > asleep at the camp site) from a would be assassin and having won the > upper hand in the fight when he cut the jugular of the Orc and was > sprayed across the face with blood. I judged that such an occurrence > (especially since he was already worked up in combat) would push him > over the edge and force a possible cannibalistic counter attack having > tasted the blood. He failed the temptation and subsequently ripped the > Orc's neck open with a bite attack. This scene was only witnessed by > two others (a PC and an NPC). From this point all I can say is that it > was roleplayed very well (some of the best in my 17 years of gaming). > > I guess what I'm trying to ask is would this be permissible in > Tolkien's realm? How off the mark or acceptable is this (in any > opinions). Should I have allowed this. From this point I'm going run > his PC as an NPC until the time when his goals and desired take him away > from the group. > > I just want to hear some the 'purist' views and/or get some > justification on something like this happening. Can an Orc (Uruk or > not) feel something like this? I've read all about how Orcs came from > corrupted Elves and bred over the ages...how about some of them trying > to revert back and resist their heritage? Unlikely...I know, but this > is roleplaying after all and weird things can happen. > > Please, I'd like to hear what you think. > > Take it easy, > > J. Keller > > PS. I hope I don't get majorly flamed on this (for it being perceived > as blatantly OT). ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greetings...gotta question(s) for everyone... Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 00:19:06 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 33 Message-ID: <964-38B8B3CA-4@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRmU2P0CVWHEzu+zP04PFuqmG9CvAIUYdy++QTpjcGrkooDKCejqzQM9Kk= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14898 James Keller wrote: >Can an Orc (Uruk or not) feel something >like this? I've read all about how Orcs >came from corrupted Elves and bred >over the ages...how about some of them >trying to revert back and resist their >heritage? First of all, it all depends on how you view the orcs and their origin. Some would say that they were either bred from elves or men (or a combination of the two) and therefore have some measure of free will, while others would say that they were mindless automatons animated by the will of Morgoth and therefore had no will of your own. I side with the former argument, which would have to be a necessity in your campaing if PC orcs are allowed. Anyway, the orcs were bred to be cheap and expendable soldiers, more or less. They were bred to be destructive and brutal. If any orc were to show traits of compassion or mercy, it's likely he would have been "weeded out". However, in LotR, there were orcs who did question authority, but usually did so cautiously. After all, an orc who questions too many orders, would likely be killed. I haven't played MERP before, so I don't know the rules behind your campaign, however the scenario is somewhat believable to me. Even if an orc was to turn his back on his former life, it's very likely he would have a difficult time ridding himself of the casual brutality the race was bred for. --Dave ###### From: James Keller Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greetings...gotta question(s) for everyone... Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:44:30 +0900 Organization: City Telecom Kanagawa InterNetServices Lines: 131 Message-ID: <38B92A3E.F24EFBDA@gol.com> References: <38B7E9C2.CEECD991@gol.com> <0d2u4.10499$Py3.177365@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Reply-To: shade@gol.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.16.254.253 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.ctktv.ne.jp 951691639 81770 172.16.254.253 (27 Feb 2000 22:47:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.ctktv.ne.jp NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2000 22:47:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newssvt07.tk!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed.kddnet.ad.jp!newsfeed.rim.or.jp!tokyonet.ad.jp!newsgw5.odn.ne.jp!news01.directint.co.jp!news.ctktv.ne.jp!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14919 > The one thing that most caught my 'sense of Tolkien sensor' > reading your post was the part where he set about learning about > those he was bred to destroy. This point, to me, seems less > supportable than any reasoning he might have had to 'rebel' > against the Dark Lord in the first place. Now, if seem to also Actually, his initial stationing at Cameth Brin (in Rhudaur) didn't allow for much except duty. We surmised that over the next 10 years of his duty he encounteedr many of the Hill-men that had joined sides with the Witch King against the remaining Edain. It was from this 10 year period that the seeds of questioning were planted. > intend that this Uruk-hai also rebelled against the value system > Sauron (or previously, Melkor) instilled in them. Why should I > imagine he would want to adopt the moral system of elves or > humans, who he no doubt would have been raised to believe ate > babies, and tortured orcs for sport. How would he come to any > information that would have led him to imagine elves, dwarves, or > humans were worthy of emulation? His only encounters with them That's just it...he's not trying to emulate any of them. He is trying to be himself (and many times finds that his past is too much apart of him and he reverts back to that murderous incarnation). No action has been made in the group (yet) for him to talk with anyone in length about other cultures or personal goals. Actually he is just guiding them to Herubar Gular because he knows the location and need money in order to get some things that he can't steal. Believe me, I haven't allowed this character to become good at all, and the player knows this. Like I said there was a lot that I left out that was roleplayed that supported me allowing this. After his desertion from his post at Cameth Brin, the Uruk then wandered through Arnor (well the remaining states of Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur) for the next 50 or so years. Yup, he's old by orc standards but this time spent away from the pervading dark influences has changed him. I'm not saying that here is an Orc that has left home because he wants to learn about Elves and Dwarves (explicitly, this was used to explain his eventual approach to the group, it took 50 years for this to happen)...it goes deeper than that and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear on that point. > would presumably have come from battlefields, where no orc would > have expected, nor likely have experienced compassionate > treatment. I agree. He has never received any 'nice' treatment of that sort. In fact, at one point he even opted for last watch while everyone rested, and then went and killed the Orc prisoner before the rest of the group could 'try' to interrogate it (and he subsequently lied about the whole situation...). Again...more here than I can write...I'd have to have all the players write up what happened from their character's point of view. > I suppose that ultimately we have to voluntarily suspend > disbelief (as surely would have any non-orcs he would have > encountered after his escape) that an orc was in any way > redeemable in the first place, since Tolkien provides no overt > support or mechanism for such a change of 'heart.' I agree here also. But this is a roleplaying game, and in the end I felt that something like this if handled properly could only add to the session. And he did a great job of doing it. I guess I can draw upon the fact that Tolkien was a Christian and that he might have felt that given the right circumstances, and Uruk with more intelligence than a normal orc could think beyond his own slavery. If only for the moment that would lead to deserting his post. I know this character has no intentions of ever setting up a bakery in Bree! :) > I think his drinking the blood of his victim a reasonable > 'resort to character' act but I guess I just have to take your > word for it that he ever came to form the kind of relationships > with the other members of the group to feel motivated to defend > them in the first place. He wasn't so much defending the group (that he actually used to convince the group of his 'good' intentions later), as he was defending himself! He was next in line to receive a poisoned dart! > If you want to find literary justifications, I'd start there. > If I were in your shoes, I might have gone for a half-orc That's just it...he's no longer truly an Uruk...I explained that the 50 or so years away from the direct corrupting influences of being in the Witch King's service has changed his way of thinking. He is actually playing him more along the lines of a Half-Orc, rather than pure Uruk straight from the ranks. > escaping from some bizarre cross-breeding program, but that would > almost take the same leap of faith that Sauron or Saruman did > that, and if I recall, Tolkien pretty much left those ideas as > speculative, and never confirmed them within the text anyway. > I've seen, and engaged in, discussions here about the nature of > orcs, and the literary treatment of Free Will in Tolkien, and I'm > not gonna tell you one way or another whether your exrapolations > are or are not canonical, simply because you start with an Here I wasn't so much interested in whether what I've done is canonical or not (I'm sure there are those that would argue both ways), I just wanted to read what someone else thought about this situation I allowed to happen. > assumption never explicity addressed by Tolkien. However, it did > make for a good story, and presented a vivid image to my mind, > esp. during the gurgling, slavering, snarling part about biting > the neck of his prey for blood. Or, did I just imagine all those > icky noises in my head? ;) Yeah, you got that right! He actually had slashed the neck of his 'prey' on the up stroke and this opened the jugular and sprayed thick blood across his face and mouth. I judged this as a point of temptation and had him make a temptation roll without telling him what the roll was for...it was so cool when he rolled so low that his cannibalistic instincts took over and instead of slashing the orc again in the neck he drew back, un-hinged his jaw a bit, (exposing those nice sharp canines) and pulled the orc's head the the side, while at the same time stabbing his blade into the thing's upper chest (for leverage) and ripping a sizable chunk out of the poor fool's throat! After explaining what happened by whisper, I asked him to roleplay it out and it was great! I even made the screams of the dying orc at the same time. This freaked everyone out and it led to a great encounter between the other PC's and this 'beast' among the group. Good stuff. Too bad the guy leaves in about 10 days and I'll probably never see him again. I don't plan on his character (now an NPC) to become a regular in the group...he'll probably leave after they reach their destination because his cover has been blown and he'll never be truly accepted (I'm gonna make the Dwarf NPC probably kill him or be killed when the Uruk fails more temtation when faced by a Dark Mage). Thank you for your point of view! I truly enjoyed reading what you had to say. J. Keller