From: crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 4 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 14 Feb 2000 16:47:51 GMT Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14346 I read in the ainulindale, of the Ainur some abode still with illuvatar But "many" of the greatest and most fair took leave,not "all"...If Tulkas can come later ,why cant some of these "greater" spirits ? ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:23:10 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.40 X-Server-Date: 14 Feb 2000 18:21:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news-fra.pop.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14366 Said crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I read in the ainulindale, of the Ainur some abode still with illuvatar But >"many" >of the greatest and most fair took leave,not "all"...If Tulkas can come later >,why cant some of these "greater" spirits ? I would give two reasons: 1. The couldn't because Tolkien didn't say they did. That's not much help, I agree. 2. They didn't because it was a one-time decision. This is my theory, and I don't think Tolkien ever says it in so many words, but I think it is consistent with his themes. Much of Tolkien's work is about choices, and living with the consequences. Choices, once made, cannot be reversed by the chooser. Arwen *chose* to be mortal, and to be parted forever from her father, for a mortal lifespan with Aragorn. "'Nay, dear lord,' she said, 'that choice is long over.'" Feanor *chose* to withhold the Silmarils when the Valar asked for them, and that choice had grave consequences in his later rebellion: "The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were. But now the doom of the Noldor drew near." Many other examples will occur to your thought. The one that most directly touches your query is that of the Ainur (who became the Valar) entering the World. The Valar *chose* to be part of it, and they could not later change their minds: "Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World." My theory is, that the Ainur who did not choose to be part of Ea, and share in the labor of its final shaping, could not thereafter lawfully choose to go into it. I think Tulkas was a special case, granted by Eru at Manwe's prayer. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 4 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 14 Feb 2000 18:50:47 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <20000214135047.29349.00003428@ng-fk1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14349 >2. They didn't because it was a one-time decision. Gandalf (olorin) I thought had originally decided not to come to middle earth? I dont subscribe to that theory,especially on a "hunch" ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 References: <20000214135047.29349.00003428@ng-fk1.news.cs.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 25 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:12:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 950559120 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:12:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:12:00 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14302 [Stan Brown said:] [PLEASE retain attribution of quoted material!] > >2. They didn't because it was a one-time decision. Quoth crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron): > Gandalf (olorin) I thought had originally decided not to come to > middle earth? I dont subscribe to that theory,especially on a > "hunch" I don't really follow you here. Gandalf was certainly reluctant to be one of the Istari (according to _Unfinished Tales_), but when it came time for his choice, he obviously agreed. (And, in terms of Stan's discussion of choices, once he accepted that role he was bound in it until his task was done.) On another note, what theory exactly are you saying that you don't subscribe to? If you mean Stan's general thoughts about choices in Tolkien's works, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. If you mean the specific notion that the Ainur had one and only one chance to enter Ea, well, I can understand it if you don't want to "firmly" believe anything about Middle-earth that wasn't actually written by Tolkien. On the other hand, if you're saying that you have a reasonably strong belief that other Ainur _did_ enter Ea later on, then I'd expect you to give as much justification for it as Stan did for his position. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 14 Feb 2000 20:21:03 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000214152103.17182.00002929@nso-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14344 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >My theory is, that the Ainur who did not choose to be part of Ea, >and share in the labor of its final shaping, could not thereafter >lawfully choose to go into it. I think Tulkas was a special case, >granted by Eru at Manwe's prayer. There are authoritative texts that state Tulkas was already in Ea when he heard of the strife in Arda and decided to come hither and help out against Melkor. Elsewhere Tolkien makes it clear that not all Ainur to entered Ea went to Arda. Arda was clearly the focal point of Ea and the great battles between good and evil, darkness and light; but he did state there were things going on elsewhere. Tulkas was apparently an Ainu who, at first at least, dealt with other parts of Ea. Russ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:21:34 -0500 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: weAvNPEc8+q5WlbxhWD4O6HIqiJL6ypHwIpUn1zMJPA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 05:38:30 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14299 Stan Brown wrote: > 2. They didn't because it was a one-time decision. This is my > theory, and I don't think Tolkien ever says it in so many words, > but I think it is consistent with his themes. > > Much of Tolkien's work is about choices, and living with the > consequences. Choices, once made, cannot be reversed by the > chooser. Moreover, keep in mind that outside of Ea there is no Time. The Ainur can choose to enter Ea or not, but there is no "later" for them in which to change their minds. Of course, those who did enter Ea were bound to it, and did experience Time. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 15 Feb 2000 11:25:05 GMT References: <20000214152103.17182.00002929@nso-fz.aol.com> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <20000215062505.28607.00000851@ng-cm1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14347 Seems to me there are a lot of "choices Changed" The dead men of dunharrow got to take another stab at "right" But by your own rules,you cant just assume ,Olorin did not wish to come to ME,he said he was afraid,that was his choice but he was overruled or at least shamed into coming....And didn"t OSSE get another chance to aid the valar instead ofstaying under Melkors thumb ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:32 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b3.3b X-Server-Date: 15 Feb 2000 17:10:29 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14359 Said jsolinas@erols.com (Flame of the West) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Moreover, keep in mind that outside of Ea there is no Time. >The Ainur can choose to enter Ea or not, but there is no >"later" for them in which to change their minds. Of course, >those who did enter Ea were bound to it, and did experience >Time. Interesting idea, and consistent with Christian orthodox belief, but I'm not sure that it is consistent with Tolkien's sub-created universe. Are we sure that outside Ea there is no time at all, no sense of duration? I accept that the time outside Ea may not flow as our own, but I have a lot of trouble with the idea that there is no time at all outside of Ea. How could there be music without duration? Tolkien talks of the development of themes; the development must surely come after the themes, right? For that matter, without time what makes the second and third themes second and third? How could Iluvatar have brought the music to a start and then started it again, without time or some sort? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: 15 Feb 2000 22:58:01 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Message-ID: <6uk8k6jfh2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 950651881 826 10.0.3.2 (15 Feb 2000 21:58:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 21:58:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14373 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > Said jsolinas@erols.com (Flame of the West) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Moreover, keep in mind that outside of Ea there is no Time. > > but I'm not sure that it is consistent with Tolkien's sub-created > universe. > > Are we sure that outside Ea there is no time at all, From the Silmarillion, Ainulindale, page 21/22 in Harper Collins edition: For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, ... ^^^^^^^^ and further on page 22: ... but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, ... So yes, we are sure that it is so in Tolkiens world. > How could there be music without duration? Because the music is only in thoughts and so may have an totally non-temporal existance (say a spacial existance, or more likely given Tolkiens background non-physical/spiritual). > development of themes; the development must surely come after the > themes, right? After in time, or in space, or in ...? We are talking here about an pre[1]-physical event. [1] replace "pre" with whatever word you would use for "outside" in the sense of outside of physics. Say "meta" as in meta-physics. > For that matter, without time what makes the > second and third themes second and third? Logical arrangement? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Wizzard, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Computer: a toy, speeds work so that you have more time to play ###### From: simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:51:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.153.200.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Feb 16 15:51:15 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.153.200.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsimonh_hibbs Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14381 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > Said jsolinas@erols.com (Flame of the West) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Moreover, keep in mind that outside of Ea there is no Time. > >The Ainur can choose to enter Ea or not, but there is no > >"later" for them in which to change their minds. Of course, > >those who did enter Ea were bound to it, and did experience > >Time. > > Interesting idea, and consistent with Christian orthodox belief, > but I'm not sure that it is consistent with Tolkien's sub-created > universe. Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? > Are we sure that outside Ea there is no time at all, no sense of > duration? I accept that the time outside Ea may not flow as our > own, but I have a lot of trouble with the idea that there is no > time at all outside of Ea. That depends on some details of cosmology that I'm not clear on. If Ea is in any sense 'within' the greater cosmos under discussion then there is time within this greater cosmos because there is time in Ea. > How could there be music without duration? Tolkien talks of the > development of themes; the development must surely come after the > themes, right? For that matter, without time what makes the > second and third themes second and third? How could Iluvatar have > brought the music to a start and then started it again, without > time or some sort? Perhaps duration (time?) is a property of the music, not a property of this greater cosmos in general. In the world of myth things that have once existed will always exist, things that are once true are always true. In attempting to comprehend it we project familiar attributes on to it. However we cannot comprehend it as it truly is because it is beyond our nature. Simon Hibbs Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:43:27 -0500 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38AB6E46.22478952@erols.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 5AcVUU8xenHwqrFWcab4jwaUbRlNYcVrskvvDwWAY2k= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2000 04:44:31 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14579 simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com wrote: > > Interesting idea, and consistent with Christian orthodox belief, > > but I'm not sure that it is consistent with Tolkien's sub-created > > universe. > > Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not > be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? It's quite possible that there is a conflict in places, because Tolkien did not live long enough to rework his creation to match the Christian understanding of the universe. But the Creation sequence was so reworked, so that orthodox Christian belief is a good guide to what Tolkien meant. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:18:57 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.b4 X-Server-Date: 17 Feb 2000 07:16:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14557 Said simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com (simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not >be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? Is there any doubt? Christian orthodox belief has a Trinity, including one member who lived and died on earth. Tolkien's sub- created universe has one god, and no incarnation. Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian belief has nothing like that. Tolkien's world has reincarnation (for Elves), which is not part of Christian doctrine. Christians are enjoined to pray frequently, to do good to those that hurt them, and so on. Tolkien's characters pray infrequently or not at all, and are enjoined to kill Orcs without mercy or even warning. I could go on and on, and you probably could too. Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his own belief system but it was not Christian. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 17 Feb 2000 15:25:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000217102507.12476.00003150@nso-fg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14505 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >>Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not >>be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? > >Is there any doubt? Christian orthodox belief has a Trinity, >including one member who lived and died on earth. Tolkien's sub- >created universe has one god, and no incarnation. There is a clear foreshadowing of the incarnation in Athrabeth. >Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the >shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian belief >has nothing like that. > >Tolkien's world has reincarnation (for Elves), which is not part >of Christian doctrine. > >Christians are enjoined to pray frequently, to do good to those >that hurt them, and so on. Tolkien's characters pray infrequently >or not at all, and are enjoined to kill Orcs without mercy or >even warning. > >I could go on and on, and you probably could too. > >Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his >own belief system but it was not Christian. Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of his Letters. Of course, its not going to be identical to Christian Catholic beliefs but his Middle-earth is infused with that worldview. Larger issues such as the nature of evil and God's creation of a world with evil in it, repentence and redemption are taken straight out of Catholic doctrine. Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:49:09 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20000217102507.12476.00003150@nso-fg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.45 X-Server-Date: 17 Feb 2000 17:46:57 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14560 Said mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his >>own belief system but it was not Christian. > >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of his >Letters. It could hardly be otherwise, since he was a Christian. But that does not mean that he sub-created a Christian world. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:28:54 -0800 Organization: Lockheed Martin Corporation Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38ACAE66.C789D8E4@ihwy.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> Reply-To: csernica@ihwy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: SVL78ZT836.lmms.lmco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.online.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed3.global.lmco.com!svlss.lmms.lmco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14573 Stan Brown wrote: > Interesting idea, and consistent with Christian orthodox belief, > but I'm not sure that it is consistent with Tolkien's sub-created > universe. Christian orthodox belief? Perhaps for many Christians, but it's not consistent with Orthodox Christian belief, which holds that all created beings, including the angelic orders, experience time of one sort or another. Only God is eternal by nature and therefore outside of time. > I accept that the time outside Ea may not flow as our own Orthodox Christianity agrees with this statement, if by Ea is meant the material universe as distinct from the spiritual. Yet the spiritual world and the material have more in common with each other than with God because the fundamental ontological gulf is between the created and the Uncreated, not between the tangible and the intangible. However, I sincerely doubt that Tolkien had Orthodox belief in mind when he wrote the Ainulindale. Your point about the music is (or ought to be) well taken; the concept of interval is inseparable from time and is an essential component of music. -- Chris Csernica ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:28:56 -0500 Organization: Attercop & Tomnoddy, Ltd. Lines: 85 Message-ID: <38ACBC76.152B3B9D@erols.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 1qAJpuPOl/uMP+BShvVsGI+EyLN8Z0EEJRCjb9v+a2Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2000 04:17:45 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14405 Stan Brown wrote: > >Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not > >be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? > > Is there any doubt? Christian orthodox belief has a Trinity, > including one member who lived and died on earth. Tolkien's sub- > created universe has one god, and no incarnation. Christian belief has one God as well. The Trinity consists of one God in three Persons, and your point is presumably that only one Person is shown in Tolkien's works. But that is consistent with the way in which the Christian God revealed Himself; in pre-Christian times, God only revealed Himself as Father, or Creator. One would therefore not expect an explicit reference to the Trinity in the time of Middle-Earth. There are hints in Tolkien's world of the Incarnation to come. > Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the > shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian belief > has nothing like that. The Valar are angels. They were called "gods" in early drafts to make them consistent with pagan legends, but they were never actual gods. Tolkien is careful to have both Elves and Valar withdraw from our world, long enough before historical times for our memory of them to fade. Nothing inconsistent here with Christian teachings. The Bible doesn't say that God could not have created another world, populated it with immortal creatures, and entrusted its governance to angels. Christian teaching is about God and Men. > Tolkien's world has reincarnation (for Elves), which is not part > of Christian doctrine. The possibility of Elves is not addressed by Christian doctrine. There is nothing in Christian teaching that says that God cannot have made a race of beings who experience reincarnation. All that is taught is that we humans are not reincarnated. > Christians are enjoined to pray frequently, to do good to those > that hurt them, and so on. Tolkien's characters pray infrequently > or not at all, and are enjoined to kill Orcs without mercy or > even warning. You need to make distinctions between Tolkien's characters. The Elves had a special reverence for the Valar, but they knew that the Valar were but Eru's stewards of Arda. The Men of Númenor, who were closest to the ideal Men of the time, worshipped Eru directly. This makes sense, in that Eru in some sense assigned the Elves to the Valar, while reserving Men to Himself. The Elves are bound to Arda while it lives, like the Valar themselves; while Men transcend Arda, as does Eru. After the fall of Númenor, the Men of the West began to decline slowly, losing gradually their superiority over the rest of Men. This is reflected in the decline of their prayer life, which in Gondor is still present but is largely vestigal. Again, this makes sense. Remember that the Men of Middle-Earth must eventually decline in later ages to the pagans of early history. The decline of explicit Eru worship in the Third Age is the beginning of that process. Thus there is no conflict between the Christian belief of the necessity of prayer and the depiction of the Men of Middle-Earth. As for killing Orcs, that was nothing other than conducting a war. There is a constant state of war between the Enemy and the Free Peoples throughout Tolkien's stories. > Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his > own belief system but it was not Christian. It was pre-Christian because it was pre-historical. But it was consistent, and deliberately so, with Christian cosmology and morality, as well as with human history. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:33:34 -0500 Organization: Attercop & Tomnoddy, Ltd. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <38ACBD8C.D7B97AE1@erols.com> References: <20000217102507.12476.00003150@nso-fg.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 1qAJpuPOl/tah1Dx7H8GmpTSkQEdIGkvsCAPinwZ3gM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2000 04:17:46 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14409 Stan Brown wrote: > >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of his > >Letters. > > It could hardly be otherwise, since he was a Christian. But that > does not mean that he sub-created a Christian world. Depends on what you mean by a "Christian world." Tolkien introduced fictional elements to this world that are not not part of Christian teaching but do not contradict them. And the morality of Middle-Earth is the same as Judeo- Christian morality. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:27:44 -0500 Organization: Combe, Staddle, and Archet, Ltd. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <38AD56DC.57C18F45@erols.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <38ACAE66.C789D8E4@ihwy.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: v6IwFViFpjZD+iDUGxao/Z7oGfwLBDBbxid6vEhHETo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2000 15:23:48 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14403 Chris Csernica wrote: > Christian orthodox belief? Perhaps for many Christians, but it's not > consistent with Orthodox Christian belief, which holds that all created > beings, including the angelic orders, experience time of one sort or > another. Only God is eternal by nature and therefore outside of time. One should be careful with the word "time" here. Time in the physical world is but one dimension of space-time, which is an aspect of the physical universe. So by definition, time as we know it cannot exist beyond the physical universe. I think what you mean by "time of one sort or another" is changeability. I'm sure that whatever is experienced in the spiritual world is not time as we know it, if only because the way we experience time is relative to our acceleration, the forces of gravity we are experiencing, etc. > > > However, I sincerely doubt that Tolkien had Orthodox belief in mind when > he wrote the Ainulindale. Your point about the music is (or ought to > be) well taken; the concept of interval is inseparable from time and is > an essential component of music. Look, it's obvious that Tolkien didn't mean literal "music" as in the physical world. There was no atmosphere through which the sounds of physical vibration could travel, etc. I suspect that by Music JRRT was describing the harmonious arrangement of Creation being seen to unfold. I find the description of "Music" to be very inspiring and insightful, but I wouldn't interpret it as literal music. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:16:29 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.153.200.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 18 15:16:29 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.153.200.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsimonh_hibbs Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14452 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > Said simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com (simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not > >be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? > > Is there any doubt? Christian orthodox belief has a Trinity, > including one member who lived and died on earth. Tolkien's sub- > created universe has one god, and no incarnation. That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. > Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the > shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian belief > has nothing like that. Except in the Old Testament, of course. > Tolkien's world has reincarnation (for Elves), which is not part > of Christian doctrine. Elves do not reincarnate, when they die they are beyond the mortal world, except when they're not. Much as dead people in the bible are beyond the mortal world, except when like Lazarus they are not. > Christians are enjoined to pray frequently, to do good to those > that hurt them, and so on. Tolkien's characters pray infrequently > or not at all, and are enjoined to kill Orcs without mercy or > even warning. Not like Israelites killing Philistines or Canaanites at all, I'm sure. > I could go on and on, and you probably could too. Yup. > Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his > own belief system but it was not Christian. So Tolkien was a Christian, but his belief system was not Christian. Strange, I was suffering from the delusion that Christianity is a belief system. Simon Hibbs Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:24:58 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <88jo85$2v9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000217102507.12476.00003150@nso-fg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.153.200.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 18 15:24:58 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.153.200.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsimonh_hibbs Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspeer1.nac.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14441 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > Said mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his > >>own belief system but it was not Christian. > > > >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of his > >Letters. > > It could hardly be otherwise, since he was a Christian. But that > does not mean that he sub-created a Christian world. Except that he said that he did. He also said that the world of the Lord of the Rings is not a different world to ours, but is set in a fictional time in the history of our own world. Clearly the characters in the stories are fictional, including the Valar and Maia, but it seems clear that they are angelic beings. They are no less consistent with christianity than a fictional angel or seraphim would be inconsistent with christianity. It seems to me that the Elves are mortal creatures born untainted by Original Sin. Christian mythology does not admit the existence of such beings in real history, but as a thought experiment if such beings were to exist, then Tolkien's elves are what he imagined they might be like. Simon Hibbs Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:28:32 -0800 Organization: Lockheed Martin Corporation Lines: 33 Message-ID: <38ADC790.C9536065@ihwy.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: csernica@ihwy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: SVL78ZT836.lmms.lmco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed3.global.lmco.com!svlss.lmms.lmco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14569 simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com wrote: > That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with > Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old Testament, according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three angels who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. > > Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the > > shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian belief > > has nothing like that. > > Except in the Old Testament, of course. Where? Pagan gods are mentioned of course, but only as foils for God. They are not depicted with any cosmological role. God Himself is not depicted as relying on any other agents for the shaping and running of the world. [snip] > > Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his > > own belief system but it was not Christian. > > So Tolkien was a Christian, but his belief system was not Christian. You don't have to misparse the sentence because this is not a point you need (or I would think, even want) to make. It's "[Tolkien's] created world" which was not Christian, even though it "drew on his belief system", which was. -- Chris Csernica ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:38:47 -0800 Organization: Lockheed Martin Corporation Lines: 38 Message-ID: <38ADC9F7.8DF251@ihwy.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <38ACAE66.C789D8E4@ihwy.com> <38AD56DC.57C18F45@erols.com> Reply-To: csernica@ihwy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: SVL78ZT836.lmms.lmco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed3.global.lmco.com!svlss.lmms.lmco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14562 Flame of the West wrote: > One should be careful with the word "time" here. Time in the > physical world is but one dimension of space-time, which is an > aspect of the physical universe. So by definition, time as we > know it cannot exist beyond the physical universe. I think what > you mean by "time of one sort or another" is changeability. No, I mean duration and interval as well, although I'd certainly agree that it passes in a manner not identical with the material world. Perhaps it's time of a different nature, corresponding to the difference in nature between the material and the spiritual. But if by time is meant changability and never duration, then all spiritual beings would enjoy the same point of view as God; that is, no duration would be experienced at all but only an eternal present. From that POV any spiritual being would be able to intervene within time at any moment in history or the future. There is nothing in Holy Tradition to suggest that this is the case for any being but God. Furthermore, all beings except God had a beginning because they were created. They are therefore not eternal by definition and cannot achieve that POV. > Look, it's obvious that Tolkien didn't mean literal "music" as in the > physical world. There was no atmosphere through which the sounds > of physical vibration could travel, etc. I suspect that by Music > JRRT was describing the harmonious arrangement of Creation being > seen to unfold. I find the description of "Music" to be very inspiring > and insightful, but I wouldn't interpret it as literal music. I don't have SIL in front of me, but IIRC the analogy would be stretched a little too far for my comfort if this were true. Illuvatar's halls "echoed" to the music; Melkor's discord caused those nearest him to take up his distortion of Illuvatar's theme; Illuvatar himself describes it as "minstrelsy." Vibration can occur in many other media besides air, and if necessary we can posit any of them. -- Chris Csernica ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000217102507.12476.00003150@nso-fg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:21:31 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.231 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 950923276 209.18.27.231 (Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:21:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:21:16 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14425 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.1315fea0ef60571698ac1e@news.mindspring.com... > Said mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his > >>own belief system but it was not Christian. > > > >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of his > >Letters. No, Tolkien doesn't say that. He says HE is a Christian and a Catholic: Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long defeat' - though it contains (and in a legend may more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory. Letter no. 195. He never says that LOTR is either Christian or Catholic. The closest he comes to such a statement is when he says that in the LOTR there are some Christian themes. Namely Death and Immortality. Christianity cannot be found in the details. Those that look for broad Christian themes may find them, whether Tolkien intended that they be there is a question for another day. > It could hardly be otherwise, since he was a Christian. But that > does not mean that he sub-created a Christian world. Dave ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Feb 2000 02:59:17 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14520 In article , "David L." writes: >> >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of >his >> >Letters. > >No, Tolkien doesn't say that. He says HE is a Christian and a Catholic: > > Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, > so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long > defeat' - though it contains (and in a legend may more > clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final > victory. > >Letter no. 195. > >He never says that LOTR is either Christian or Catholic. The closest he comes >to such a statement is >when he says that in the LOTR there are some Christian themes. Namely Death >and Immortality. > >Christianity cannot be found in the details. Those that look for broad >Christian themes may find >them, whether Tolkien intended that they be there is a question for another >day. > Check out Letter 142: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, inthe imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism" Russ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:31:48 -0500 Organization: Attercop and Tomnoddy, Ltd. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38AE2AC0.132068C8@erols.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38ADC790.C9536065@ihwy.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 9w/m626TqMfFFlW0RFgwq4bb+fLtrM0FwH2Iiprgz7E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2000 05:40:22 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14580 Chris Csernica wrote: > > That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with > > Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. > > The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old Testament, > according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three angels > who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Reminds me: the Trinity is also suggested in the works of Tolkien. God the Father is, of course, Eru; the Incarnation is predicted in the discussion of Finrod and Andreth; and (according to Foster) the Secret Fire named by Gandalf is the Holy Spirit. Very strong evidence, I think, that Tolkien's sub-creation *is* Christian. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:19:29 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.1c X-Server-Date: 19 Feb 2000 13:17:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14552 Said simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com (simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >> Said simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com (simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com) in >> rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >Are you suggesting that Tolkien's sub-created universe might not >> >be consistent with Christian orthodox belief? >> >> Is there any doubt? Christian orthodox belief has a Trinity, >> including one member who lived and died on earth. Tolkien's sub- >> created universe has one god, and no incarnation. > >That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with >Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. Well, it's not. It clearly places Jehovah in time: he changes his mind repeatedly, which an eternal god could not do. There is also little or nothing about eternal life or life after death, a central Christian doctrine. >> Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the >> shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian belief >> has nothing like that. > >Except in the Old Testament, of course. It's a while since I read Genesis, but as I recall neither of the two (contradictory) creation accounts there has anyone but Jehovah shaping the world. Can you cite something to the contrary? Not the "there were gods in the earth" passage: that's long after creation was complete. >> Tolkien's world has reincarnation (for Elves), which is not part >> of Christian doctrine. > >Elves do not reincarnate, when they die they are beyond the mortal >world, except when they're not. Much as dead people in the bible >are beyond the mortal world, except when like Lazarus they are not. You need to read a bit more. Tolkien made it clear that Elves when they die do not go beyond the world, not ever: they are immortal only as it is immortal, and their life is bound up with its. An Elf who dies goes to the Halls of Mandos for a period of waiting and (if necessary) healing and reformation, before being reborn. IIRC many details are in PoME. >> Christians are enjoined to pray frequently, to do good to those >> that hurt them, and so on. Tolkien's characters pray infrequently >> or not at all, and are enjoined to kill Orcs without mercy or >> even warning. > >Not like Israelites killing Philistines or Canaanites at all, I'm sure. They were not Christians; the god of the OT is not the god of the NT even though Christians like to gloss over the differences. Perhaps the main difference is that the god of the OT was not the only god around: the Israelites had not yet progressed to the idea of a universal god, so he was their tribal god like the gods of other nations. The commandment, you recall, was that they should have no other gods *before* *Jehovah*. >> Tolkien was a Christian; his created world certainly drew on his >> own belief system but it was not Christian. > >So Tolkien was a Christian, but his belief system was not Christian. > >Strange, I was suffering from the delusion that Christianity is a >belief system. Now you're just twisting my words. I said his created world drew on his belief system -- how could it do otherwise? -- but not that that was its only source or even its primary source. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:21:31 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20000217102507.12476.00003150@nso-fg.aol.com> <88jo85$2v9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.1c X-Server-Date: 19 Feb 2000 13:19:12 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14567 Said simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com (simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , > But that >> does not mean that he sub-created a Christian world. > >Except that he said that he did. Oh? Can you quote your source, please? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:29:42 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38ADC790.C9536065@ihwy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.1c X-Server-Date: 19 Feb 2000 13:27:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14555 Said csernica@ihwy.com (Chris Csernica) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old Testament, >according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three angels >who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I hope you'll pardon my saying that seems to be a bit of a stretch. There are many occurrences of the number three in the OT, including pi = 3.0 (see I Kings 7:23 and II Chron 4:2). But I don't think that's a persuasive connection to the later Christian doctrine of the trinity (which was not mentioned even in the NT, by the way). -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:38:00 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.188.227 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 950967465 199.179.188.227 (Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:37:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:37:45 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14412 Russ wrote in message news:20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com... > In article , "David L." > writes: > > >> >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of > >his > >> >Letters. > > > >No, Tolkien doesn't say that. He says HE is a Christian and a Catholic: > > > > Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, > > so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long > > defeat' - though it contains (and in a legend may more > > clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final > > victory. > > > >Letter no. 195. > > > >He never says that LOTR is either Christian or Catholic. The closest he comes > >to such a statement is > >when he says that in the LOTR there are some Christian themes. Namely Death > >and Immortality. > > > >Christianity cannot be found in the details. Those that look for broad > >Christian themes may find > >them, whether Tolkien intended that they be there is a question for another > >day. > > > > Check out Letter 142: > > "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic > work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why > I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like > 'religion', to cults or practices, inthe imaginary world. For the religious > element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism" Oops, overlooked that one. I'll butt out of religious arguments in the future. :) Dave ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Feb 2000 15:13:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000219101330.03224.00004987@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14507 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >>The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old Testament, >>according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three angels >>who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. > >I hope you'll pardon my saying that seems to be a bit of a >stretch. There are many occurrences of the number three in the >OT, including pi = 3.0 (see I Kings 7:23 and II Chron 4:2). But I >don't think that's a persuasive connection to the later Christian >doctrine of the trinity (which was not mentioned even in the NT, >by the way). > There's plenty of Sprirt of the Lord references in the OT that can be attributable to the Holy Spirit of Christianity but I don't know any clear reference to the Trinity in the OT. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Feb 2000 15:13:31 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000219101331.03224.00004988@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14510 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Now you're just twisting my words. I said his created world drew >on his belief system -- how could it do otherwise? -- but not >that that was its only source or even its primary source. > Letter 142. Tolkien said that in revising the LOTR he was consciously making it a Catholic work. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Feb 2000 15:13:31 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000219101331.03224.00004989@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14513 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Said simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com (simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com) in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>In article , >> But that >>> does not mean that he sub-created a Christian world. >> >>Except that he said that he did. > >Oh? Can you quote your source, please? > Letter 142. (quoted in another recent message in this thread) Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:01:20 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20000219101331.03224.00004988@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c0.67 X-Server-Date: 19 Feb 2000 19:59:00 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14554 Said mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>Now you're just twisting my words. I said his created world drew >>on his belief system -- how could it do otherwise? -- but not >>that that was its only source or even its primary source. >> >Letter 142. Tolkien said that in revising the LOTR he was consciously making >it a Catholic work. I maintain that there is a distinction between "a Catholic work of literature" and "a Catholic world depicted in that work". It's subtle, but I think real. You and others seem to me to be assuming that because Tolkien was Catholic any subject he wrote about was ipso facto Catholic, and I don't think that's true or even plausible. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Feb 2000 22:25:21 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000219172521.13363.00001577@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14519 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >>Letter 142. Tolkien said that in revising the LOTR he was consciously >making >>it a Catholic work. > >I maintain that there is a distinction between "a Catholic work >of literature" and "a Catholic world depicted in that work". It's >subtle, but I think real. Perhaps you could expand on that? >You and others seem to me to be assuming that because Tolkien was >Catholic any subject he wrote about was ipso facto Catholic, and >I don't think that's true or even plausible. > No, that's not what I'm assuming. I and others (so far as I have read) are not saying that every subject Tolkien wrote about was ipso facto Catholic and I'd be interested if you could provide a cite for that statement. Nevertheless, when an author states that he purposefully made a certain text a "Catholic" work, I take that seriously. Tolkien's Middle-earth in infused with the Catholic world-view. Quite franky, I don't know why people are so resistant to that. It's Tolkien's creation and he can do with it what he wants. Russ ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000219172521.13363.00001577@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:08:40 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.160 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 951001707 209.18.27.160 (Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:08:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:08:27 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14423 Russ wrote in message news:20000219172521.13363.00001577@nso-fi.aol.com... > In article , > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > >>Letter 142. Tolkien said that in revising the LOTR he was consciously > >making > >>it a Catholic work. > > > >I maintain that there is a distinction between "a Catholic work > >of literature" and "a Catholic world depicted in that work". It's > >subtle, but I think real. > > Perhaps you could expand on that? > > >You and others seem to me to be assuming that because Tolkien was > >Catholic any subject he wrote about was ipso facto Catholic, and > >I don't think that's true or even plausible. > > > > No, that's not what I'm assuming. I and others (so far as I have read) are not > saying that every subject Tolkien wrote about was ipso facto Catholic and I'd > be interested if you could provide a cite for that statement. Nevertheless, > when an author states that he purposefully made a certain text a "Catholic" > work, I take that seriously. Tolkien's Middle-earth in infused with the > Catholic world-view. Quite franky, I don't know why people are so resistant to > that. It's Tolkien's creation and he can do with it what he wants. Russ do you think its possible that Tolkien meant "Catholic" in its broader meaning "universal": i.e. the LOTR contains Christian and universal themes? Its an idea that just came to me. Dave ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:56:54 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <20000219172521.13363.00001577@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.0d X-Server-Date: 20 Feb 2000 00:54:26 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14563 Said mcresq@aol.com (Russ) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>>Letter 142. Tolkien said that in revising the LOTR he was consciously >>making >>>it a Catholic work. >> >>I maintain that there is a distinction between "a Catholic work >>of literature" and "a Catholic world depicted in that work". It's >>subtle, but I think real. > >Perhaps you could expand on that? Well, I already have in earlier posts. Here's a metaphor that just occurred to me and may help: The literary work is the milk carton, and the sub-created work is the milk therein. While the carton is made of cardboard, there is no cardboard in the milk (one hopes!). There are numerous elements in Arda that directly contradict common Christian doctrine and therefore a fortiori Catholic doctrine. I listed a few of them before; there doesn't seem much point in listing them again. If Tolkien wants to call his literature Catholic, I have no problem with that. But it's certainly not an accurate description of the content of the work. Maybe this is easier to see in reverse: in /The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire/, Gibbon wrote extensively about the Catholic church and its beliefs (and to a lesser extent about the Eastern Orthodox, when the two were separate). So the world that he narrates is Catholic. But it's clear upon reading that he himself was not a Catholic, probably not any kind of Christian, so that although his narrated world was Catholic and Christian, his work was not. I don't think he said anything like this, but he could have said, correctly, "My work is un-Christian" even though he described a Christian world. As I said one or two exchanges ago, the distinction is subtle but, I think, no less real for that. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Feb 2000 03:13:17 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000219221317.20944.00001369@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14514 In article , "David L." writes: >> No, that's not what I'm assuming. I and others (so far as I have read) are >not >> saying that every subject Tolkien wrote about was ipso facto Catholic and >I'd >> be interested if you could provide a cite for that statement. >Nevertheless, >> when an author states that he purposefully made a certain text a "Catholic" >> work, I take that seriously. Tolkien's Middle-earth in infused with the >> Catholic world-view. Quite franky, I don't know why people are so >resistant to >> that. It's Tolkien's creation and he can do with it what he wants. > >Russ do you think its possible that Tolkien meant "Catholic" in its broader >meaning "universal": >i.e. the LOTR contains Christian and universal themes? Its an idea that just >came to me. > I doubt it. Here is the quote from Letter 142: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision...For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism." First, he capitalized the word "catholic". If he meant it simply as a synonym for universal the wouldn't have capitalized it. Second, in the sentence just prior to Tolkien saying that "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work" he is talking about the Virgin Mary. Third, in the following sentence he explains himself by referring to the "religious"element. It's clear to me, Tolkien was saying the Lord of the Rings was a Roman Catholic work. By that I mean that it expresses a Roman Catholic world-view. Russ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:14:33 -0500 Organization: Combe, Staddle, and Archet, Ltd. Lines: 49 Message-ID: <38AF5C13.367CAA8A@erols.com> References: <20000219172521.13363.00001577@nso-fi.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: mnoFB6qLx4KNejczpHnuulciUyvNi1KCc+bLHd5yYdQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 03:22:13 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14404 Stan Brown wrote: > There are numerous elements in Arda that directly contradict > common Christian doctrine and therefore a fortiori Catholic > doctrine. I listed a few of them before; there doesn't seem much > point in listing them again. You were WRONG about every entry on your list. I will remind you of them: > > Christian orthodox belief has a Trinity, > > including one member who lived and died on earth. Tolkien's sub- > > created universe has one god, and no incarnation. Christian belief has one God, and so does Middle-Earth. Tolkien's works include suggestions of the Trinity and of the coming Incarnation. Perfect accord here with Christian teaching. > > Tolkien has "gods", the Valar, who are responsible for the > > shaping and the day-to-day running of the world; Christian > > belief has nothing like that. The Valar are angels, not gods. Christian teaching includes angels. The Valar withdrew and did not run Middle-Earth day to day. > > Tolkien's world has reincarnation (for Elves), which is not part > > of Christian doctrine. Christian doctrine is silent on the possible existence of immortal and/or reincarnated creatures on other worlds. > > Christians are enjoined to pray frequently, to do good to those > > that hurt them, and so on. Tolkien's characters pray infrequently > > or not at all, and are enjoined to kill Orcs without mercy or > > even warning. Tolkien's characters lived in a time before the Mosaic law. At the time, there was no injunction to pray directly to Eru. They did attempt to live virtuously and in accord with the will of Eru. Their killing of Orcs was in the course of waging war. Again, no conflict with Christian teaching. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:06:40 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 55 Message-ID: <38AFCABF.2282213D@cable.a2000.nl> References: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 951044808 16603 62.108.12.92 (20 Feb 2000 11:06:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 11:06:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14439 Russ wrote: > In article , "David L." > writes: > > >> >Tolkien specifically called LOTR a Christian and Catholic work in one of > >his > >> >Letters. > > > >No, Tolkien doesn't say that. He says HE is a Christian and a Catholic: > > > > Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, > > so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long > > defeat' - though it contains (and in a legend may more > > clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final > > victory. > > > >Letter no. 195. > > > >He never says that LOTR is either Christian or Catholic. The closest he comes > >to such a statement is > >when he says that in the LOTR there are some Christian themes. Namely Death > >and Immortality. > > > >Christianity cannot be found in the details. Those that look for broad > >Christian themes may find > >them, whether Tolkien intended that they be there is a question for another > >day. > > > > Check out Letter 142: > > "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic > work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why > I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like > 'religion', to cults or practices, inthe imaginary world. For the religious > element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism" > To me this has always been a problematic statement, as I don't think a book can be referred to as being conscious (I take it that `The Lord of the Rings' is the subject of the sentence beginning with `unconsciously'). Now for the first time I wonder if by Catholic Tolkien means something else than Christian. The story precedes the coming of Christ, so the world in which it takes place cannot be properly called Christian, I think. It can be called Catholic in the sense of `in accordance with natural theology'. So perhaps that is how he meant it. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 07:51:32 -0500 Organization: Combe, Staddle, and Archet, Ltd. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <38AFE352.E6718DB1@erols.com> References: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> <38AFCABF.2282213D@cable.a2000.nl> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: m1GaeN7G+czlPE1J6iT69QzaDPeLyLPlb05gbGCu/r8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 13:37:24 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14401 Renée Vink wrote: > To me this has always been a problematic statement, as I don't think a book can be > referred to as being conscious (I take it that`The Lord of the Rings' is the > subject of the sentence beginning with `unconsciously'). You're right, of course, that strictly speaking that sentence doesn't make too much sense. But I assume that the words`consciously' and `unconsciously' refer to his writing of LotR rather than the book itself. > Now for the first time I > wonder if by Catholic Tolkien means something else than Christian. The story > precedes the coming of Christ, so the world in which it takes place cannot be > properly called Christian, I think. It depends on your definition of a "Christian" world. The Catholic view of history, which is what influenced Tolkien, extends all the way back to the Creation. There is a Catholic world-view of pre-Christian times. LotR is consistent with that. > It can be called Catholic in the sense of `in > accordance with natural theology'. So perhaps that is how he meant it. I think he meant more than that. I think LotR is a Catholic work in four senses: (1) its cosmology (one God, many angels) is consistent with (though not implied by) Catholic cosmology and natural theology; (2) its history of Men is consistent with Biblical history (though details such as the Fall of man are not included but only alluded to); (3) its morality is Catholic (in accord with natural theology, since it is set in pre-Christian and indeed pre-Mosaic times); and (4) the overall Middle-Earth mythology is explicitly (though subtly) Trinitarian and Christian. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:05:29 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 36 Message-ID: <38B002B8.F01B0983@cable.a2000.nl> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38ADC790.C9536065@ihwy.com> <38AE2AC0.132068C8@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 951059137 10658 62.108.12.92 (20 Feb 2000 15:05:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 15:05:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14426 Flame of the West wrote: > Chris Csernica wrote: > > > > That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with > > > Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. > > > > The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old Testament, > > according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three angels > > who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. > > Reminds me: the Trinity is also suggested in the works of Tolkien. > God the Father is, of course, Eru; the Incarnation is predicted in > the discussion of Finrod and Andreth; and (according to Foster) > the Secret Fire named by Gandalf is the Holy Spirit. > > Very strong evidence, I think, that Tolkien's sub-creation *is* > Christian. > The presence of the Spirit doesn't necessarily make it Christian. The `ruach', the breath/spirit of God, is also mentioned in the Old Testament, but Judaism doesn't acknowledge the Trinity. The Athrabeth poses a different problem: it tries to incorporate the Incarnation into Tolkien's subcreated world but I don't think the attempt is very succesful from a literary/artistic point of view; it remains what the Germans call a `Fremdkörper'. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:24:24 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 46 Message-ID: <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> References: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> <38AFCABF.2282213D@cable.a2000.nl> <38AFE352.E6718DB1@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 951060273 11890 62.108.12.92 (20 Feb 2000 15:24:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2000 15:24:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14424 Flame of the West wrote: > Renée Vink wrote: > > I wonder if by Catholic Tolkien means something else than Christian. The story > > precedes the coming of Christ, so the world in which it takes place cannot be > > properly called Christian, I think. > > It depends on your definition of a "Christian" world. The Catholic view > of history, which is what influenced Tolkien, extends all the way back > to the Creation. There is a Catholic world-view of pre-Christian times. Of course there is, but I wonder what the difference is between your `pre-Christian' and my `not Christian'. > > LotR is consistent with that. > > > It can be called Catholic in the sense of `in > > accordance with natural theology'. So perhaps that is how he meant it. > > I think he meant more than that. I think LotR is a Catholic work in > four senses: (1) its cosmology (one God, many angels) is > consistent with (though not implied by) Catholic cosmology and > natural theology; (2) its history of Men is consistent with Biblical > history (though details such as the Fall of man are not included > but only alluded to); (3) its morality is Catholic (in accord with > natural theology, since it is set in pre-Christian and indeed > pre-Mosaic times); and (4) the overall Middle-Earth mythology is > explicitly (though subtly) Trinitarian and Christian. > Could you expand on (4), preferably without mentioning the Athrabeth, which is too obviously an afterthought? Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Feb 2000 16:51:49 GMT References: <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000220115149.13363.00001911@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14583 In article <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink writes: >Could you expand on (4), preferably without mentioning the Athrabeth, which >is too >obviously an afterthought? > An afterthought? It was part and parcel of Tolkien's post-LOTR revisions to the Eilmarillion: "...it should clearly be given here on account of its association, *both in date and content*, with the writings and revisions of the 'Seci\ond Phase' of the post-Lord of the Rings history of the Silmarillion." (Morgoth's Ring pg 303) Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:42:54 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20000219172521.13363.00001577@nso-fi.aol.com> <38AF5C13.367CAA8A@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.45 X-Server-Date: 20 Feb 2000 17:40:31 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14589 Said jsolinas@erols.com (Flame of the West) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: > >> There are numerous elements in Arda that directly contradict >> common Christian doctrine and therefore a fortiori Catholic >> doctrine. I listed a few of them before; there doesn't seem much >> point in listing them again. > >You were WRONG about every entry on your list. There doesn't seem much point in playing "is not! is too!" with you. I'm handicapped by sticking to logic. I've given you logic, and specific instances, and you don't accept them. Such is your privilege. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:37:24 -0500 Organization: Combe, Staddle, and Archet, Ltd. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38B0DD18.5A0A7277@erols.com> References: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> <38AFCABF.2282213D@cable.a2000.nl> <38AFE352.E6718DB1@erols.com> <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: W+X4QXz7qD8vorAnudYsCAOiqH18y4oD6jKubyiUkF8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2000 14:05:03 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14595 Renée Vink wrote: > > It depends on your definition of a "Christian" world. The Catholic view > > of history, which is what influenced Tolkien, extends all the way back > > to the Creation. There is a Catholic world-view of pre-Christian times. > > Of course there is, but I wonder what the difference is between your `pre-Christian' and > my `not Christian'. The difference is that you applied the term "non-Christian" to Tolkien's world, whereas "pre-Christian" applies only to the period of time in which the tales take place. The way I would put it is that Tolkien's world is Christian and Catholic, but set in a pre-Christian time. In other words, his world is in accord with the Christian understanding of the time before Christ. This is different from a non-Christian world, which, e.g. a Jewish writer might construct for a pre-Mosaic imaginary time. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:46:09 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38B0ED41.FB8A6C72@cable.a2000.nl> References: <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> <20000220115149.13363.00001911@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 951119176 14243 62.108.12.92 (21 Feb 2000 07:46:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2000 07:46:16 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!newsrouter.chello.at!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-x.support.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14621 Russ wrote: > In article <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink > writes: > > >Could you expand on (4), preferably without mentioning the Athrabeth, which > >is too > >obviously an afterthought? > > > > An afterthought? It was part and parcel of Tolkien's post-LOTR revisions to > the Eilmarillion: "...it should clearly be given here on account of its > association, *both in date and content*, with the writings and revisions of the > 'Seci\ond Phase' of the post-Lord of the Rings history of the Silmarillion." > (Morgoth's Ring pg 303) > > Russ -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:02:07 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 38 Message-ID: <38B0F0FF.6965A10C@cable.a2000.nl> References: <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> <20000220115149.13363.00001911@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 951120134 15286 62.108.12.92 (21 Feb 2000 08:02:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2000 08:02:14 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!cleanfeed.inet.tele.dQ!n00zpHeed.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14620 Russ wrote: > In article <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink > writes: > > >Could you expand on (4), preferably without mentioning the Athrabeth, which > >is too > >obviously an afterthought? > > > > An afterthought? It was part and parcel of Tolkien's post-LOTR revisions to > the Eilmarillion: "...it should clearly be given here on account of its > association, *both in date and content*, with the writings and revisions of the > 'Seci\ond Phase' of the post-Lord of the Rings history of the Silmarillion." > (Morgoth's Ring pg 303) > Sorry - the word `afterthought' was not too carefully chosen. But IMO this piece of Middle-earth theology is a too obvious attempt to `baptize' the existing mythology - as if Tolkien felt Christ ought to be mentioned explicitly in order to redeem it - which in earlier stages he didn't feel was necessary. The attempt is legitimate, of course, but I just don't think he succeeded very well. The Athrabeth is a very interesting text but in tone and content not quite compatible with the prior versions. To me, it feels like he's in some way betraying, or perhaps I should say deviating from his own artistic creed as given in the poem Mythopoeia. The theology threatens to kill the symbolism, so to say. I don't know why Christopher Tolkien didn't incluce the fragment in UT but perhaps the above has something to do with it. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:07:55 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <88rdb9$vc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38ADC790.C9536065@ihwy.com> <38AE2AC0.132068C8@erols.com> <38B002B8.F01B0983@cable.a2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.153.200.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 21 13:07:55 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.153.200.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsimonh_hibbs Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14624 In article <38B002B8.F01B0983@cable.a2000.nl>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink wrote: > > > Flame of the West wrote: > > > Chris Csernica wrote: > > > > > > That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with > > > > Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. > > > > > > The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old Testament, > > > according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three angels > > > who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. > > > > Reminds me: the Trinity is also suggested in the works of Tolkien. > > God the Father is, of course, Eru; the Incarnation is predicted in > > the discussion of Finrod and Andreth; and (according to Foster) > > the Secret Fire named by Gandalf is the Holy Spirit. > > > > Very strong evidence, I think, that Tolkien's sub-creation *is* > > Christian. > > > > The presence of the Spirit doesn't necessarily make it Christian. The > `ruach', the breath/spirit of God, is also mentioned in the Old Testament, > but Judaism doesn't acknowledge the Trinity. > The Athrabeth poses a different problem: it tries to incorporate the > Incarnation into Tolkien's subcreated world but I don't think the attempt is > very succesful from a literary/artistic point of view; it remains what the > Germans call a `Fremdkörper'. I'd agree with you on that, although I don't know the german term. However whether it's successful from an artistic point of view deson't detract from the fact that from a philosophical point of view Tolkien still saw the Incarnation as not only being consistent with Middle Earth, but that it is actualy a logicaly deducible necessity within it. Simon Hibbs Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:24:39 -0500 Organization: Combe, Staddle, and Archet, Ltd. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <38B1BB18.2D2BFDC4@erols.com> References: <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> <20000220115149.13363.00001911@nso-fi.aol.com> <38B0F0FF.6965A10C@cable.a2000.nl> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: GJkQIp7+9/7SRWb2UvOHmjNYMDnLFgJ+fbh6ZozSLbI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2000 23:17:54 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!vienna-fdr1.newsservers.com!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14610 Renée Vink wrote: > IMO this piece of > Middle-earth theology is a too obvious attempt to `baptize' the existing mythology > - as if Tolkien felt Christ ought to be mentioned explicitly in order to redeem it > - which in earlier stages he didn't feel was necessary. I wouldn't say "baptize", rather he was trying to make more explicit the Christian nature of his world which was there all along. JRRT always held that his world was *our* world in an imaginary time; and his conception of our world was thoroughly Christian. So the world of Middle-Earth was always Christian. It just wasn't as explicit as he later tried to make it. > The attempt is legitimate, of course, but I just don't think he succeeded very > well. The Athrabeth is a very interesting text but in tone and content not quite > compatible with the prior versions. To me, it feels like he's in some way > betraying, or perhaps I should say deviating from his own artistic creed as given > in the poem Mythopoeia. The theology threatens to kill the symbolism, so to say. I too am a bit uncomfortable with many of his later writings. He seemed to be decreasing the sense of wonder that was present in his earlier writings in order to bring more philosophical coherence to his sub-creation. This rendered his world more philosophically consistent but less "fun." But you seem particularly uncomfortable with the Athrabeth. I would just point out that Middle-Earth would have been no less Christian and Trinitarian had the Athrabeth never been written. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:36:16 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 52 Message-ID: <38B24A80.AC4BDBF0@cable.a2000.nl> References: <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> <20000220115149.13363.00001911@nso-fi.aol.com> <38B0F0FF.6965A10C@cable.a2000.nl> <38B1BB18.2D2BFDC4@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 951208588 26898 62.108.12.92 (22 Feb 2000 08:36:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2000 08:36:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14622 Flame of the West wrote: > Renée Vink wrote: > > > IMO this piece of > > Middle-earth theology is a too obvious attempt to `baptize' the existing mythology. > > I wouldn't say "baptize", rather he was trying to make more explicit > the Christian nature of his world which was there all along. I'm not sure whether Tolkien's imagination was as thoroughly Christian in the beginning, when for instance the Valar were still `gods', as it became later. When you're young it is very well possible to adhere theoretically to a set of beliefs which do not yet pervade your whole being. The younger Tolkien's imagination was more pagan and so less Christian than it came to be when he grew older. Arda could not be more Christian than Tolkien's own imagination was at any given time during its development. My guess is that he saw this, and that this was the reason why he set out to make the revisions. Perhaps the development of his mythology runs parallel to that of his faith. > > > The attempt is legitimate, of course, but I just don't think he succeeded very > > well. The Athrabeth is a very interesting text but in tone and content not quite > > compatible with the prior versions. To me, it feels like he's in some way > > betraying, or perhaps I should say deviating from his own artistic creed as given > > in the poem Mythopoeia. The theology threatens to kill the symbolism, so to say. > > I too am a bit uncomfortable with many of his later writings. He > seemed to be decreasing the sense of wonder that was present > in his earlier writings in order to bring more philosophical coherence > to his sub-creation. This rendered his world more philosophically > consistent but less "fun." But you seem particularly uncomfortable > with the Athrabeth. I would just point out that Middle-Earth would > have been no less Christian and Trinitarian had the Athrabeth > never been written. > I'm mainly uncomfortable with the Athrabeth from an artistical point of view. The first part of it is very moving. Then somehow the Finrod character begins to sound increasingly like a professor in speculative philosophy, the poetry is smothered by reasoning, and I get the distinct feeling Tolkien is talking to himself about the theological make-up of Arda. For the rest, see above. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:50:17 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 66 Message-ID: <38B24DC8.9BB1E19@cable.a2000.nl> References: <20000214114751.01116.00000830@ng-bj1.news.cs.com> <38A8E25A.1B67A077@erols.com> <88eh1h$dgj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <88jno9$2hh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38ADC790.C9536065@ihwy.com> <38AE2AC0.132068C8@erols.com> <38B002B8.F01B0983@cable.a2000.nl> <88rdb9$vc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 951209428 27666 62.108.12.92 (22 Feb 2000 08:50:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2000 08:50:28 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14617 simonh_hibbs@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <38B002B8.F01B0983@cable.a2000.nl>, > =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink wrote: > > > > > > Flame of the West wrote: > > > > > Chris Csernica wrote: > > > > > > > > That's like saying that the Old Testament is not consistent with > > > > > Christian orthodox beliefs because it doesn't mention a Trinity. > > > > > > > > The Trinity is suggested in more than one place in the Old > Testament, > > > > according to Christian exegesis. The most obvious is the three > angels > > > > who visited Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and > Gomorrah. > > > > > > Reminds me: the Trinity is also suggested in the works of Tolkien. > > > God the Father is, of course, Eru; the Incarnation is predicted in > > > the discussion of Finrod and Andreth; and (according to Foster) > > > the Secret Fire named by Gandalf is the Holy Spirit. > > > > > > Very strong evidence, I think, that Tolkien's sub-creation *is* > > > Christian. > > > > > > > The presence of the Spirit doesn't necessarily make it Christian. The > > `ruach', the breath/spirit of God, is also mentioned in the Old > Testament, > > but Judaism doesn't acknowledge the Trinity. > > The Athrabeth poses a different problem: it tries to incorporate the > > Incarnation into Tolkien's subcreated world but I don't think the > attempt is > > very succesful from a literary/artistic point of view; it remains > what the > > Germans call a `Fremdkörper'. > > I'd agree with you on that, although I don't know the german term. > However whether it's successful from an artistic point of view > deson't detract from the fact that from a philosophical point of view > Tolkien still saw the Incarnation as not only being consistent with > Middle Earth, but that it is actualy a logicaly deducible necessity > within it. > The literal translation of `Fremdkörper' would be `alien body'. I can see that if Middle-earth is equated with our world, the Incarnation is given. Or perhaps I should say that the introduction of mankind after the Fall necessitates it. Nevertheless, from an artistical point of view the second half of the Athrabeth seems a rather clumsy attempt at Theological Correctness. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Greater than Manwe 2 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:54:48 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 35 Message-ID: <38B24ED8.B82064F6@cable.a2000.nl> References: <20000218215917.13363.00001274@nso-fi.aol.com> <38AFCABF.2282213D@cable.a2000.nl> <38AFE352.E6718DB1@erols.com> <38B00728.E3B45339@cable.a2000.nl> <38B0DD18.5A0A7277@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 951209699 27928 62.108.12.92 (22 Feb 2000 08:54:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2000 08:54:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-x.support.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14619 Flame of the West wrote: > Renée Vink wrote: > > > > It depends on your definition of a "Christian" world. The Catholic view > > > of history, which is what influenced Tolkien, extends all the way back > > > to the Creation. There is a Catholic world-view of pre-Christian times. > > > > Of course there is, but I wonder what the difference is between your `pre-Christian' and > > my `not Christian'. > > The difference is that you applied the term "non-Christian" to > Tolkien's world, whereas "pre-Christian" applies only to the > period of time in which the tales take place. The way I > would put it is that Tolkien's world is Christian and Catholic, > but set in a pre-Christian time. In other words, his world > is in accord with the Christian understanding of the time > before Christ. This is different from a non-Christian world, > which, e.g. a Jewish writer might construct for a pre-Mosaic > imaginary time. > Well, yes, from a Christian point of view pre-Christian would seem a better term. All the same I would like to hear the Jewish view on the theological aspects of Middle-earth, if there is such a view.. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html