From: StevieRayVonnegut Subject: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> Lines: 29 Bytes: 1308 X-Originating-Host: 209.30.64.48 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here X-Wren-Trace: eNfy2tvChc+Eldbc2ZXD3c7K0t/Q1oWQ8sLZ3NHMgJTX3NeEic6MiouYhYaXw5w= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:10:20 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.48 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 950174166 10.0.2.48 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:16:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:16:06 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14095 After reading the string on Beater and Biter, I journey back to the original set of questions and add this: How the hell did a bunch of special ed. trolls end up with two exceptional weapons? What series of events transpired to make this so? A plausible answer anyone? Here's my worthless notion: An antique weapons collector and historian is attached to Celebrian's Gaurd as she journeys over the Mountains. When the Orcs nab her, the collecter is captured with her and has his weapons taken away which included our topic. He's killed and the orcs try to destroy the weapons to no avail. Later on, after winning big on Orcist Jeopardy, (elvish runes was the final Jeopardy category), several younger orcs take the swords with them out into the wilds west of the mountains to party. Having had one too many entdraughts (a registered trademark of Anheiser-Busch), the orcs are easily way laid by the idiot Trolls (or perhaps their distant relatives-- however long you want to make Troll life spans). Anyway any real ideas? StevieRayVonnegut, Music Director, KZDM, Radio Free Moria, Broadcasting live high atop Zirak-zigil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Date: 10 Feb 2000 18:58:04 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <87v1ns$c5$1@news.asu.edu> References: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14109 In a previous article, buckbucknumber1NObuSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid (StevieRayVonnegut) says: >After reading the string on Beater and Biter, I journey back to the >original set of questions and add this: How the hell did a bunch of >special ed. trolls end up with two exceptional weapons? What series of >events transpired to make this so? A plausible answer anyone? Here's >my worthless notion: [funny stroy snipped] >Anyway any real ideas? I think almost certainly the weapons were captured at some point, either by Orcs or Dwarves, or even evil men. If it was Dwarves, the stuff could have ended up as part of a dragon-hoard, abandoned when the dragon was killed. Trolls could have picked tem up from there. Bilbo's 3 trolls could have come into possesion that way, or by stealing them from others. Just my $0.02 worth. -- ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:04:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <87v5jb$qkh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 10 20:04:05 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14112 StevieRayVonnegut question: "How the hell did a bunch of special ed. trolls end up with two exceptional weapons? What series of events transpired to make this so? A plausible answer anyone?" Dear SRV, I am certainly not going to be able to totally answer this (if anyone this side of Mr. Tolkien could), but it is apparent to me that after the sack of Gondolin those swords went east over the Blue Mountains prior to the Valar squashing Morgoth. To me, it is hard to imagine them being carried away by Orcs, since they seem to have a real aversion to even being around the weapons. Although, I guess they could have used them for light sources. Another question of mine would be: "Who carried Orcrist?' Was it Ecthelion's sword? Could these swords have somehow gotten into the hands of a renegade Elve (unknown to Elrond) and this Elve was subsequently ambushed by the Trolls in question? Maybe somehow these swords got into the hands of the Dwarves in Moria (after all, a Dwarve named Telchar made them) and when the Balrog took over, the trolls found them at some point. Shit, who knows? Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: rmspageme Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:47:34 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <87v854$skk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> <87v5jb$qkh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.76.159.30 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 10 20:47:34 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x37.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 167.76.159.30 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrmspageme Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14111 Not so hard to imagine.. Beater and Biter lost. Found by a Ranger or other powerful warrior. Waylayed by 3 trolls. Beater and Biter might be potent weapons, but perhaps not enough to stop three determined trolls. ->rms Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> <87v5jb$qkh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:02:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 950227362 12.79.29.158 (Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:02:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:02:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14151 wrote in message news:87v5jb$qkh$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Maybe somehow these swords got into the hands of the Dwarves in > Moria (after all, a Dwarve named Telchar made them) Telchar made Anduril (among other things). Orcrist and Glamdring were said to have been made by the Elves of Gondolin. ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (ERK1030) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 11 Feb 2000 04:18:08 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000210231808.29581.00002723@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14176 >> Maybe somehow these swords got into the hands of the Dwarves in >> Moria (after all, a Dwarve named Telchar made them) > >Telchar made Anduril (among other things). Orcrist and Glamdring >were said to have been made by the Elves of Gondolin. Wasn't Telchar an ELF? -Mithrigil ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:16:53 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <23441-38A3A955-41@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000210231808.29581.00002723@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQ3HbV+npjR/KTZuIbGL+W4zPurBwIURNFI5RrRp87TxpnW0iUgLksWB4Q= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14127 Mithrigil wrote: >Wasn't Telchar an ELF Nope. The chapter in the Silm about the Sindar mentions Telchar was from one of the dwarven cities in the Ered Luin, I believe. --Dave ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 11 Feb 2000 13:39:07 GMT References: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000211083907.17182.00002317@nso-fz.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14186 In article <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com>, StevieRayVonnegut writes: >After reading the string on Beater and Biter, I journey back to the >original set of questions and add this: How the hell did a bunch of >special ed. trolls end up with two exceptional weapons? What series of >events transpired to make this so? A plausible answer anyone? Here's >my worthless notion: A pair of heroes are surrounded, and eventually slain, by a horde of orcs aided by three trolls. Tthe orcs find the swords very distasteful, and refuse to touch them. So naturally the trolls take them. As for how the heroes came by the swords? Who knows! Alot can happen in 6000 years. They probably got them from someone else, who, like themselves, Bilbo, Gandalf or Thorin, had no direct connection to Gondolin. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 11 Feb 2000 13:39:08 GMT References: <87v1ns$c5$1@news.asu.edu> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000211083908.17182.00002319@nso-fz.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14188 In article <87v1ns$c5$1@news.asu.edu>, chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) writes: >I think almost certainly the weapons were captured at some point, >either by Orcs or Dwarves, or even evil men. If it was Dwarves, >the stuff could have ended up as part of a dragon-hoard, abandoned >when the dragon was killed. Trolls could have picked tem up from >there. Why "evil men"? I'm not sure why everyone assumes that these weapons have been exclusively in the posession of Bad Guys in the 6,000 years since their last recorded mention in the Red Book. Surely it is clear that *someone* has been using these weapons to kill ORCS, to such an extent that many goblins recognize and fear them on sight. And surely there must have been a great many adventurers in history whose lives came to a bad, but unrecorded, end. And even if the deeds of such folk were recorded SOMEWHERE, why should the information necessarily be known by hobbits or be recorded in the Red Book. Middle Earth is an enormous place with a vast history. To imagine we know even 1% of all there is to know about it would be unimaginative indeed. The full history of these swords, and the deeds done with them since they were first forged, would probably fill several volumes. -- John Whelan ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Troll Swords (re: More on Beater and Biter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:53:51 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <881bac$cjh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <184874d0.0479d4d9@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> <87v5jb$qkh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 11 15:53:51 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14141 (snip Mr. Dunkerson setting me right) Dear Conrad, Thanks for correcting me. So many damn swords to remember :)!! Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.