From: "Gareth G. Jelley Esq." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:40:30 -0000 Organization: Oxford University, England Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: trin94.trinity.ox.ac.uk X-Trace: news.ox.ac.uk 950164908 23535 163.1.162.94 (10 Feb 2000 06:41:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@ox.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 2000 06:41:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!server3.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14074 Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this term. For that matter, does anyone have any wonderful theories about the books - Why Tolkien wrote them, whether they can be seen as Allegory, symbolism, etc. -- Gareth. ---------------------- 'I am the master,' he thundered. 'And you will obey me." ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:42:35 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38A26BEA.59A96482@tu-clausthal.de> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.fh-hannover.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14080 "Gareth G. Jelley Esq." schrieb: > Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts > about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I > ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this > term. > > For that matter, does anyone have any wonderful > theories about the books - Why Tolkien wrote them, > whether they can be seen as Allegory, symbolism, > etc. I remember some paragraphs in the biography of Tolkien and in the beginning of the LotR, that said that Tolkien didn´t write his book as a allegory and that he deosn´t like it poeple interpreting his works as allegories. The main reason for Tolkien to write seems to be, that he wanted a "historical background" for his Elven languages. Florian Florian Voigts • florian.voigts@heim7.tu-clausthal.de • http://www.heim7.tu-clausthal.de/~fvoigts/ ###### From: StevieRayVonnegut Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <1b0840d8.1471c9e1@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com> Lines: 14 Bytes: 665 X-Originating-Host: 209.30.64.194 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> X-Wren-Trace: eD8aMjMqbSdsfT40MX0rNSYiOjc4Pm14GioxNDkkaHw/ND9sYSZkYmNwbW5/LnV8 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:11:33 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.48 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 950178097 10.0.2.48 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:21:37 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:21:37 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14096 Though not truly literary crit. Tolkien's LETTERS shows glimpses of what he was trying to do in his own words. Christopher offers his own views in HoME, and instead of reading the whole 12 volumes, just do the 4 on the History of LoTR. An old (relativiely speaking, i think it is from 1976?)general overview that relates LoTR to general myths (northern European mostly) is Lin Carter's A LOOK BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS. There is literally tons of stuff out there of a wide wide wide variety. SRv * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:18:24 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <87uhbc$adm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 10 14:18:24 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14075 In article <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk>, "Gareth G. Jelley Esq." wrote: > Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts > about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I > ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this > term. > You could try going to http://www.mines.edu/stu_archive/jchuhta/bookn.html a handy resource, detailing various books of Tolkien criticism, I particularly recommend Tom Shippey's "The Road to Middle Earth", a newer title by Patrick Curry, "Defending Middle Earth" is not included but I would recommend it as a study of Tolkien with regard to environmentalism/millenial concerns. > For that matter, does anyone have any wonderful > theories about the books - Why Tolkien wrote them, > whether they can be seen as Allegory, symbolism, > etc. > > -- > Gareth. > > ---------------------- > > 'I am the master,' he thundered. 'And you will > obey me." > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "robin evans" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: 10 Feb 2000 14:33:01 GMT Organization: Redecraft Ltd Lines: 20 Message-ID: <01bf73d5$06b7a470$f8af050a@itc253205> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: igas2-2.igas.postoffice.co.uk X-Trace: newsreaderg1.core.theplanet.net 950193181 24908 194.152.87.163 (10 Feb 2000 14:33:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 2000 14:33:01 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net Cache-Post-Path: igateway.postoffice.co.uk!unknown@10.5.175.248 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14077 Have you read Tolkien's own "Essay on Fairy Tales"? It's based on a lecture he gave, and was published along with a short story "Leaf by Niggle" in a book called "Tree and Leaf". This should answer your second question, since JRRT talks quite a bit about why we make up stories. Read it - it's wonderful! Robin PS: I once read a book, author forgotten, called something like: "Myth, Magic and Spiritual Search" which had some fascinating thoughts about standard themes, but I haven't been able to find it in Amazon etc. If anyone knows the book, can u let us know! regards ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:40:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.135 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950204017 209.181.118.135 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:33:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:33:37 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14084 In article <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk>, "Gareth G. Jelley Esq." wrote: >Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts >about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I >ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this >term. You got one good answer out of all that. :) I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not withstanding. The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main points of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about imaginary works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:12:33 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.66.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 950209895 212.159.66.106 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:11:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:11:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14114 Michael Martinez wrote in message <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net>... >I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other >people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism >texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not >withstanding. > >The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main points >of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about imaginary >works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. What points do you think that Shippey and Flieger got wrong, please? Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <38A26BEA.59A96482@tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 13 Date: 10 Feb 2000 13:30:07 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 950218211 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:30:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:30:11 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14160 On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:42:35 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: >I remember some paragraphs in the biography of Tolkien and in the >beginning of the LotR, that said that Tolkien didn´t write his book as a >allegory and that he deosn´t like it poeple interpreting his works as >allegories. The main reason for Tolkien to write seems to be, that he >wanted a "historical background" for his Elven languages. Not exactly. He said that he didn't _write_ the book as an allegory, but he saw nothing wrong with the _reader_ finding something symbolic or otherwise 'allegorical' about it. It's precisely the idea of the author telling the reader what to think that bothered him. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <87vl33$17k_006@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:28:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.121 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950228498 209.181.118.121 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:21:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:21:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14162 In article , "Andrew Wells" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net>... > >>I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other >>people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism >>texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not >>withstanding. >> >>The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main >>points of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about imaginary >>works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. > >What points do you think that Shippey and Flieger got wrong, please? I knew someone would ask that question. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <01bf73d5$06b7a470$f8af050a@itc253205> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 14 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 02:19:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 950235564 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:19:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:19:24 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14118 Quoth "robin evans" : > Have you read Tolkien's own "Essay on Fairy Tales"? It's based on a > lecture he gave, and was published along with a short story "Leaf by > Niggle" in a book called "Tree and Leaf". You're thinking of "On Fairy Stories, I believe". Incidentally, it can be difficult to find _Tree and Leaf_ these days (I've never seen a copy), but it's considerably easier to find copies of _The Tolkien Reader_, which contains all of _Tree and Leaf_ as well as a number of other stories and poems. I heartily second the idea that anyone who wants to read literary criticism on Tolkien should read "On Fairy Stories" to see his own analysis (among other things). Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Renée Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:58:57 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 28 Message-ID: <38A3CF51.B2A978C0@cable.a2000.nl> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <87vl33$17k_006@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 950259528 25290 62.108.12.92 (11 Feb 2000 08:58:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2000 08:58:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14128 Michael Martinez wrote: > In article , "Andrew Wells" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote in message <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net>... > > > >>I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other > >>people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism > >>texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not > >>withstanding. > >> > >>The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main > >>points of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about imaginary > >>works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. > > > >What points do you think that Shippey and Flieger got wrong, please? > > I knew someone would ask that question. > Here's another one. I'm not sure about Flieger, but 90% of what Shippey says makes sense to me. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:46:32 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8813rn$6pj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 11 13:46:32 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14138 In article <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk>, "Gareth G. Jelley Esq." wrote: > Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts > about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I > ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this > term. > > For that matter, does anyone have any wonderful > theories about the books - Why Tolkien wrote them, > whether they can be seen as Allegory, symbolism, > etc. > > -- > Gareth. I forgot primary source texts. Letters, On Fairy Stories, Leaf by Niggle, Introduction to LoTR (applicability not allegory). > > ---------------------- > > 'I am the master,' he thundered. 'And you will > obey me." > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:51:49 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <88145k$6t3$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 11 13:51:49 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!cyclone.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14124 (snip)> > You got one good answer out of all that. :) > > I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other > people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism > texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not > withstanding. > > The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main points > of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about imaginary > works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. > What the hell is imaginary work? Is it like the stuff I say I do which I get paid for? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:45:04 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.20 X-Server-Date: 11 Feb 2000 14:43:15 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14200 Said gareth.jelley@trinity.ox.ac.uk (Gareth G. Jelley Esq.) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts >about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I >ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this >term. This prompts me to ask, has anyone ever seen Cliff Notes on /Hobbit/ and /LotR/? Are they any good? Any chance they'd provide some new thoughts or new appreciation to anyone who's read both books several times? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:47:55 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <38A26BEA.59A96482@tu-clausthal.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.20 X-Server-Date: 11 Feb 2000 14:46:06 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.vew-telnet.net!news-DUS.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14201 Said mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:42:35 +0100, Florian Voigts > wrote: >>I remember some paragraphs in the biography of Tolkien and in the >>beginning of the LotR, that said that Tolkien didn´t write his book as a >>allegory and that he deosn´t like it poeple interpreting his works as >>allegories. > >Not exactly. He said that he didn't _write_ the book as an allegory, but >he saw nothing wrong with the _reader_ finding something symbolic or >otherwise 'allegorical' about it. Actually, he said he detests 'allegory', but that that's different from 'applicability'. Here's the relevant paragraph from the foreword to LotR: "Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:18:43 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.71.245 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 950303870 212.159.71.245 (Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:17:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:17:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14198 Andrew Wells wrote in message ... >Michael Martinez wrote in message <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net>... > >>I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other >>people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism >>texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not >>withstanding. >> >>The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main >points >>of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about imaginary >>works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. > >What points do you think that Shippey and Flieger got wrong, please? Could you enlighten us on this, please, Michael? I think that this is the fourth time in the last year and a half that you have denigrated Tom Shippey's book in these newsgroups. On each occasion, I have asked what you don't like about it, but you have never bothered to reply. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8829ub$2f0_004@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 80 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:36:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.205 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950315375 209.181.118.205 (Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:29:35 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:29:35 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14153 In article <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones>, "Andrew Wells" wrote: >Andrew Wells wrote in message ... >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net>... >> >>>I did research on Tolkien when I was in college (as have many, many other >>>people). In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary >>>criticism texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts >>>not withstanding. >>> >>>The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the main >>>points of the story wrong that their criticisms are really more about >>>imaginary works than about Tolkien's work about his imaginary world. >> >>What points do you think that Shippey and Flieger got wrong, please? > >Could you enlighten us on this, please, Michael? I think that this is the >fourth time in the last year and a half that you have denigrated Tom >Shippey's book in these newsgroups. On each occasion, I have asked what you >don't like about it, but you have never bothered to reply. I'm still trying to figure out how my qualification for Shippey and Fleiger -- intended to imply they stand out from the crowd -- suggests they should be lumped in with the crowd. I rather expected SOMEONE to read that the wrong way, but I was kind of surprised it would be you. And I have never denigrated Shippey's book. I have merely pointed out that his identification of the Rohirrim with the Anglo-Saxons of poetry is extremely weak. Interestingly, Deja.Com reports only two articles from me when I search both rec.arts.books.tolkien and alt.fan.tolkien going back to Jan 1 1995 for: +shippey +"road to middle-earth" +rohirrim Neither article denigrates Shippey or his book in any way. http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=442154624&fmt=text http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=358629321&fmt=text Of course, I've only used Michael@xenite.org since late Summer of 1997. Searching on my older email addresses (those I could remember) I found one article with these search terms: michaelm@basis.com mmartin@basis.com Michael_Martinez@compuserve.com michaelm@swcp.com Again, no denigration appears in the one article. http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=282339431&fmt=text Now, if I search for ALL articles with just "Shippey" under the five email addresses mentioned above, I get 46 hits: http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/qs.xp?ST=PS&QRY=%2Bshippey&subjects=&groups=rec. arts.books.tolkien%2Calt.fan.tolkien&authors=michael%40xenite. org%2Cmichaelm%40basis.com%2Cmmartin%40basis. com%2CMichael_Martinez%40compuserve.com%2Cmichaelm%40swcp. com&fromdate=Jan+1+1995&todate=&showsort=score&maxhits=100&defaultOp=AND&DBS=1 &OP=dnquery.xp&LNG=ALL There are a number of repetitions in the list as the old WorldFAQ shows up, but checking articles at random I can't find anything where I've denigrated either Shippey or his book. I can find numerous places where I've recommended it. Perhaps, however, you had this rebuttal in mind, from March of 1998? http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=333036023&fmt=text Frankly, I think you owe me an explanation of your remarks, as I've been unable to find anything from me that even remotely resembles what you accuse me of. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### From: smgcfam@aol.com (SMGCFAM) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 74 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Feb 2000 01:26:06 GMT References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14175 >Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts >about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I >ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this >term. T.A. Shippey and Verlyn Flieger mentioned by others are very interesting to read. I will not comment on the relative worth of the following books but I give you a list in order to start you on your way. I'm sure most, though out of print, are available at university libraries and it looks like you do go to Oxbridge from your address. I read all the Tolkien criticism I can get my hands on. It is for me just one way of revisiting the LOTR and I like reading what other people have to say. There are a few books I missed and I also want to mention Edmund Wilson's "Oo, Those Awful Orcs" which I think appears in his collection THE BIT BETWEEN MY TEETH or something like that. It is the great grandaddy of Tolkien bashing articles and is interesting mainly for its lack of praise though I cannot agree with Wilson's conclusions. Anyway, you might want to look at: Christian Mythmakers, by Roland Hein published by Cornerstone Press, Chicago, 1998 which has a chapter on JRRT. The Lord of the Rings, The Mythology of Power by Jane Chance, Twayne Publishers, NY, 1992 The Hobbit, A Journey to Maturity, by William H. Green also published by Twayne Tolkien and the Critics, University of Notre Dame Press, ed. by Isaacs and Zimbardo, 1968 Two books by Paul Kocher, Master of Middle Earth and a Readers' Guide to the Silmarillion The Mythology of Middle Earth by Ruth Noel, Houghton Mifflin, Boston, 1977 (I will break my rule and editorialize here and say this one isn't too good, i.e. the writing is uninspired--reads like a Senior's High School thesis--and the conclusions are kinda obvious if you know anything about European mythology) The Individuated Hobbit by Timothy O'Neill, Houghton Mifflin, Boston, 1979 J.R.R. Tolkien, a Critical Biography by Ivor and Deborah Rogers, Hippocrene Books, N.Y., 1980 Tolkien and the Silmarillion by Clyde S. Kilby, Harold Shaw Publishers, Wheaton, Ill. 1976 Two books by Randel Helms, Tolkien and the Silmarils and Tolkien's World J.R.R. Tolkien, Myth, Morality, and Religion by Richard L. Purtill, Harper and Row, San Francisco, 1984 A Tolkien Compass--a collection of essays published I believe by Open Court Myth, Allegory, and the Gospel published by Bethany Fellowship, Minneapolis, Mn. which has and essay about JRRT. Don't take this list as all inclusive or including the best there is. As I've said, I enjoy reading Tolkien criticism. I'm always interested in what other people have to say and being a somewhat passive person I don't suffer from virulent apoplexy when I disagree with what they say which is rare because what's the use of disagreeing with someone else's point of view regarding a literary work? Another interesting thing about reading criticism--there are often mentions of other authors who may be interesting to become acquainted with. It is through Tolkien criticism that I became aware of C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, and Owen Barfield, and other fellow Inklings (I was even inspired to read W.H. Lewis' book, The Splendid Century, which has nothing to do with fantasy because he, like his brother, was an Inkling.) I also discovered Chesterton and Belloc through my interest in JRRT and his critics. Need I mention Mediveal history and literature, classic fantasists like William Morris, Mervyn Peake, E.R.Eddison and Hope Mirless, etc. etc. etc. In other words, starting from an early edition of The Hobbit that my brother picked up about 33 years ago a huge tree (like Niggle's!) has sprouted for me and I have traced the convolutions of its branches, felt its gnarled bark, smelled its pungent flowers, tasted its tangy fruit and have had a heck of a good ride....I wish you the same. ###### From: "mg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <38A26BEA.59A96482@tu-clausthal.de> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:58:21 -0600 Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.142.225.98 Message-ID: <38a4da2e@queeg.apci.net> X-Trace: 11 Feb 2000 21:57:34 -0600, 208.142.225.98 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!pullfeed!queeg.apci.net!208.142.225.98 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14121 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.130deb2a1ca8d97198ab92@news.mindspring.com... > Said mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:42:35 +0100, Florian Voigts > > wrote: > >>I remember some paragraphs in the biography of Tolkien and in the > >>beginning of the LotR, that said that Tolkien didn´t write his book as a > >>allegory and that he deosn´t like it poeple interpreting his works as > >>allegories. > > > >Not exactly. He said that he didn't _write_ the book as an allegory, but > >he saw nothing wrong with the _reader_ finding something symbolic or > >otherwise 'allegorical' about it. > > Actually, he said he detests 'allegory', but that that's > different from 'applicability'. Here's the relevant paragraph > from the foreword to LotR: > > "Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or > views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I > cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always > have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its > presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied > applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think > that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one > resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the > purposed domination of the author." And this is yet but another reason to love Tolkien. He saw very clearly that some would try and attach some special message to his work, when all he wanted to do was write story for the enjoyment of his readers. If they found something in it, it came from within themselves. He would not force them down any avenue of thought. Ever since I read this statement years ago I was awed by his foresight. MG ###### From: StevieRayVonnegut Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <25d0e1ac.4af22939@usw-ex0107-050.remarq.com> Lines: 14 Bytes: 610 X-Originating-Host: 209.30.67.158 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> X-Wren-Trace: eMrvx8bfmNKZiMvBxIjewNPXz8LNy5iN79/EwczRnYnKwcqZlNORl5aFmJiK24yF Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:22:07 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.50 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 950333275 10.0.2.50 (Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:27:55 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:27:55 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14191 Stan, I have a 1976 copy of MONARCH'S NOTES on the LORD OF THE RING. It is very mediocre, and seems no better than the high school themes it was published to facilitate. The summaries are okay, and the criticism is weak, tending to give you just bare bones Epic Convention references ala Homer etc. However, I only paid 25 cents for a good 2 hours of Tolkien nonsense at my local Half Priced Books. StevieRayVonnegut, King of the Entwife Blues * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <88145k$6t3$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:39:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 950348388 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:39:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:39:48 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14208 [Michael wrote:] [Please retain attributions!] > > The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the > > main points of the story wrong that their criticisms are really > > more about imaginary works than about Tolkien's work about his > > imaginary world. Quoth smokybarnable@my-deja.com: > What the hell is imaginary work? I think that Michael is implying that the stories that the critics seem to be analyzing don't really exist (that is, they've misunderstood enough details that they couldn't _possibly_ be talking about what Tolkien wrote). To use his phrasing somewhat, instead of discussing Tolkien's actual works, the critics have ended up analyzing works that exist only in their own imaginations. Now that I've pounded that explanation into the ground, I just thought I'd say that I thought Michael's phrasing was rather funny. :) I haven't really read enough Tolkien criticism to judge these things for myself. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Renée Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:19:23 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 41 Message-ID: <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> <8829ub$2f0_004@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 950350757 26016 62.108.12.92 (12 Feb 2000 10:19:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2000 10:19:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-x.support.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14126 Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones>, "Andrew Wells" wrote: > >Andrew Wells wrote in message ... > > >>What points do you think that Shippey and Flieger got wrong, please? > > > >Could you enlighten us on this, please, Michael? I think that this is the > >fourth time in the last year and a half that you have denigrated Tom > >Shippey's book in these newsgroups. On each occasion, I have asked what you > >don't like about it, but you have never bothered to reply. > > I'm still trying to figure out how my qualification for Shippey and Fleiger -- > intended to imply they stand out from the crowd -- suggests they should be > lumped in with the crowd. I rather expected SOMEONE to read that the wrong > way, but I was kind of surprised it would be you. But this is what you wrote: > In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about Tolkien", Tom Shippey > and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not withstanding. This suggests Shippey's `Road to Middle-earth' is not a good literary criticism text about Tolkien. I read it that way, and it doesn't surprise me Andrew Wells did the same. > And I have never denigrated Shippey's book. I have merely pointed out that > his identification of the Rohirrim with the Anglo-Saxons of poetry is > extremely weak. Even if you're right, that doesn't invalidate the study as a whole. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 80 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:39:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 950351959 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:39:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:39:19 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14120 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > This prompts me to ask, has anyone ever seen Cliff Notes on > /Hobbit/ and /LotR/? Are they any good? Any chance they'd provide > some new thoughts or new appreciation to anyone who's read both > books several times? My mother found "Cliffs Notes on Tolkien's _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit_" sometime early in my senior year, and mailed it to me as a joke. I laughed, and went into my dorm's main lounge to read it. While I was there, a friend of mine (also a Tolkien fan) saw what I was doing and said "Wow. If it were _anyone_ but you reading that, I'd give them a piece of my mind." (or something like that) At any rate, I've got the booklet (75 pages) right here. Let me see... my general impression is that folks will gain considerably more by hanging out here than by reading the Cliff's Notes. An annotated list of contents follows. Contents: Life of the Author: less than a page and a half, it's a very bare-bones biography, which ends with the sentence "_The Silmarillion_ is certain to provide for years to come the materials for numerous commentaries on the ways in which the history of Middle-earth is itself a commentary on our own times." [It's concluding sentences like this that convince me that plagerizing Cliff's Notes when writing an essay would never work.] Tolkien's Fictional World: six pages of general commentary on Middle-earth and on Tolkien's writing style, with few surprises. In the first paragraph, we read that "_The Lord of the Rings_ is a work of fiction written in the middle of this century about a world that greatly resembles medieval times in Europe." There follows a discussion of Tolkien's unique twists on the usual patterns of epics and quests. Tolkien's comments about applicability and allegory are quoted. The section ends with overviews of the major races The Hobbit: Seven pages of reasonably detained plot summary. Reasonably inaccurate, too: "Bilbo sleeps late and when he gets up, he finds the dwarves gone. Being a trifle disappointed that he didn't get to bid them farewell..." is just one example. The Lord of the Rings: More plot summary, divided up by volume and book, spreading over almost seventeen pages. This summary is substantially less detailed than that for TH, as might be imagined by their relative lengths. Numerous minor (and not so minor) errors are present, and the editors take positions on some of our recurring debates without even appearing to notice that they've done so. (At least they stay mum about Balrog wings.) I'm no longer worried about students passing tests or quizzes after just reading the Cliff's Notes on a book. Glossary of Names: Not many surprises in these 23 pages. A few strange comments, though: "[Tolkien] almost identified the Blessed Realm as heaven", in reference to his translation (in _The Road goes Ever On_) "looking afar from heaven". The "Children of God" is translated as "Erusen"; perhaps that's just in a language I'm not familliar with. The wizards "probably were themselves Valar"; presumably, they were trying not to complicate the issue. Tolkien's Theme of Power: About seven pages of what seems to be the editors' favorite theme in the books. Could be interesting, though I suspect that most regulars here could construct a similar essay on this theme if they tried. Out of the blue, the editors refer to biblical prophecy when speaking of Gandalf's appearance after his return. History of Middle-earth: The seven page Readers Digest Condensed Book version of _The Silmarillion_. Naturally, just about as condensed as the LotR summary. Brief Chronology of Middle-earth: The First Age calendar has no dates. The rest reads like an extremely abridged "Tale of Years." Suggested Subjects for Investigation: My favorite: "Contrasts of character in... Galadriel and Celeborn." Nine general topics suggested in total. A Selected Bibliography: Many of the usual references, plus some I haven't heard of and without a few important ones (most notably ###### From: "Gary E. Masters" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:45:09 -0600 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 29 Message-ID: <38A571F5.36FC27F3@tamiu.edu> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shra-ppp04.tamiu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2000 14:48:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: SMGCFAM Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14209 SMGCFAM wrote: > There are a few books I missed and I also want > to mention Edmund Wilson's "Oo, Those Awful Orcs" which I think appears in his > collection THE BIT BETWEEN MY TEETH or something like that. It is the great > grandaddy of Tolkien bashing articles and is interesting mainly for its lack of > praise though I cannot agree with Wilson's conclusions. Anyway, you might want > to look at: > What happened to Wilson? His daughter loved the book and gave it to him. He hated it and from the review missed most of what was important in it. He had the grand father of imagined works. But others who are reliable have called Wilson the best critic of the last century. How could he be so far wrong? I suspect he had a list of what was important in "literature" and did not find much of it in LOR. If you think that fiction can only deal with one person and how they change in the course of the story, there is not much room for other things that are important to Tolkien and to science fiction. But actually Tolkien had that too. You just had to pay attention. So, did he see the surface and not the content. All he wrote about was school boys on a lark. I know he went sadly wrong, but I don't know how or why exactly. I feel sorry for him and wonder what I am missing for the same reasons. We should all look about now and then. And reexamine our views. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8846fg$2vo_002@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:49:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.213 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950377631 207.224.147.213 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:47:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:47:11 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14222 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Tolkien's Fictional World: six pages of general commentary on > Middle-earth and on Tolkien's writing style, with few surprises. In > the first paragraph, we read that "_The Lord of the Rings_ is a work > of fiction written in the middle of this century about a world that > greatly resembles medieval times in Europe." You could have just said, "And it gets worse from there." I looked at CLIFF'S NOTES when I was in college. It was an awful attempt at summarizing the story. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8846gk$21g_008@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> <8829ub$2f0_004@news.uswest.net> <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 36 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:50:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.213 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950377396 207.224.147.213 (Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:43:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:43:16 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14218 In article <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl>, "Renée Vink" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> I'm still trying to figure out how my qualification for Shippey and Fleiger >> intended to imply they stand out from the crowd -- suggests they should be >> lumped in with the crowd. I rather expected SOMEONE to read that the wrong >> way, but I was kind of surprised it would be you. > >But this is what you wrote: > >> In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about >> Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not withstanding. > >This suggests Shippey's `Road to Middle-earth' is not a good literary criticism > text about Tolkien. I also said I found all literary criticism to be rather boring. Shippey and Fleiger may be good critics, but I still find the stuff boring. Hence, in my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about Tolkien." >> And I have never denigrated Shippey's book. I have merely pointed out that >> his identification of the Rohirrim with the Anglo-Saxons of poetry is >> extremely weak. > >Even if you're right, that doesn't invalidate the study as a whole. Who is right is irrelevant to my point. I was expressing a personal opinion about literary criticism in general. It holds no interest for me. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:19:45 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.ef X-Server-Date: 12 Feb 2000 18:17:34 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14228 >Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): >> This prompts me to ask, has anyone ever seen Cliff Notes on >> /Hobbit/ and /LotR/? Are they any good? Any chance they'd provide >> some new thoughts or new appreciation to anyone who's read both >> books several times? Thanks, Steuard and Stevie Ray! I guess it's not worth seeking out the Cliff's *or* the Monarch's! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "David Wendelken" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: 12 Feb 2000 23:01:37 EST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts013d13.atl-ga.concentric.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14277 > Does anyone know of any good Lit. Crit. texts > about Tolkien, exploring themes, imagery etc. I > ask as I am studying him, out of choice, this > term. > The question implies that "good literary criticism" exists at all, which is a doubtful proposition. ###### From: "Gareth G. Jelley Esq." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:36:33 -0000 Organization: Oxford University, England Lines: 21 Message-ID: <885qhd$n5c$1@news.ox.ac.uk> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: trin94.trinity.ox.ac.uk X-Trace: news.ox.ac.uk 950431085 23724 163.1.162.94 (13 Feb 2000 08:38:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@ox.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2000 08:38:05 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news.ox.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14245 > > The question implies that "good literary criticism" exists at all, which is > a doubtful proposition. > Ho-ho. Good lit-crit exists, so long as you are prepared to accept the fact that every individual has their own interpretation of a text, and that the only role of crit. is to gain, for yourself, a greater understanding of a text by standing on the shoulders of giants (or in some cases dwarves.) -- Gareth. ---------------------- 'I am the master,' he thundered. 'And you will obey me.' ###### X-Originating-Host: 209.30.70.241 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 13 From: StevieRayVonnegut Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> Bytes: 475 X-Wren-Trace: eAYjCwoTVB5VRAcNCEQSDB8bAw4BB1RBIxMIDQAdUUUGDQZVWB9dW1pJVVNGFEFA Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:30:21 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.45 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 950434150 10.0.2.45 (Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:29:10 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:29:10 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14279 I tend to agree that most literary criticism is about as exciting a read as the Icelandic phone book. But is not most of the on topic discussion in this newsgroup literary criticism? StevieRayVonnegut, Editor in Chief, Southern White Trash Literary Criticism Journal for Illiterate Hobbits and Unlettered Nobles * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: "Renée Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:25:04 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 44 Message-ID: <38A68680.36C84685@cable.a2000.nl> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> <8829ub$2f0_004@news.uswest.net> <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl> <8846gk$21g_008@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 950437499 6635 62.108.12.92 (13 Feb 2000 10:24:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2000 10:24:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14240 Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl>, "Renée Vink" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> I'm still trying to figure out how my qualification for Shippey and Fleiger > >> intended to imply they stand out from the crowd -- suggests they should be > >> lumped in with the crowd. I rather expected SOMEONE to read that the wrong > >> way, but I was kind of surprised it would be you. > > > >But this is what you wrote: > > > >> In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about > >> Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not withstanding. > > > >This suggests Shippey's `Road to Middle-earth' is not a good literary criticism > > text about Tolkien. > > I also said I found all literary criticism to be rather boring. Shippey and > Fleiger may be good critics, but I still find the stuff boring. Hence, in my > opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about > Tolkien." > > >> And I have never denigrated Shippey's book. I have merely pointed out that > >> his identification of the Rohirrim with the Anglo-Saxons of poetry is > >> extremely weak. > > > >Even if you're right, that doesn't invalidate the study as a whole. > > Who is right is irrelevant to my point. I was expressing a personal opinion > about literary criticism in general. It holds no interest for me. > O.K., I see what you mean now. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: "Renée Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:30:28 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 45 Message-ID: <38A687C4.9D92744@cable.a2000.nl> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com> <38A571F5.36FC27F3@tamiu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 950437824 6635 62.108.12.92 (13 Feb 2000 10:30:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2000 10:30:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14239 Gary E. Masters wrote: > SMGCFAM wrote: > > > There are a few books I missed and I also want > > to mention Edmund Wilson's "Oo, Those Awful Orcs" which I think appears in his > > collection THE BIT BETWEEN MY TEETH or something like that. It is the great > > grandaddy of Tolkien bashing articles and is interesting mainly for its lack of > > praise though I cannot agree with Wilson's conclusions. Anyway, you might want > > to look at: > > > > What happened to Wilson? His daughter loved the book and gave it to him. He hated > it and from the review missed most of what was important in it. He had the grand > father of imagined works. But others who are reliable have called Wilson the best > critic of the last century. How could he be so far wrong? > > I suspect he had a list of what was important in "literature" and did not find much > of it in LOR. If you think that fiction can only deal with one person and how they > change in the course of the story, there is not much room for other things that are > important to Tolkien and to science fiction. But actually Tolkien had that too. > You just had to pay attention. So, did he see the surface and not the content. > All he wrote about was school boys on a lark. > > I know he went sadly wrong, but I don't know how or why exactly. Perhaps he went wrong because he tried to read it as mainstream literature, which it definitely isn't. It's more a romance than a novel, and he obviously wasn't equipped to deal with that. > I feel sorry for him and wonder what I am missing for the same reasons. We should > all look about now and then. And reexamine our views. Or chose a different point of departure. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <886m9k$1ko_006@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:31:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.76 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950459349 207.224.148.76 (Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:29:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:29:09 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14258 In article <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com>, StevieRayVonnegut wrote: >I tend to agree that most literary criticism is about as exciting >a read as the Icelandic phone book. But is not most of the on >topic discussion in this newsgroup literary criticism? No. Literary criticism isn't concerned so much with exploring the details of an imaginary world as explaining its themes. If the events depicted in Tolkien's stories were true we'd still be arguing over many of the same points, and there would be no mistaking those discussions for literary criticism. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:03:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <888qv8$cfp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <88145k$6t3$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 14 12:03:53 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14315 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > [Michael wrote:] [Please retain attributions!] > > > The stuff absolutely bores me, and so many of the critics get the > > > main points of the story wrong that their criticisms are really > > > more about imaginary works than about Tolkien's work about his > > > imaginary world. > > Quoth smokybarnable@my-deja.com: > > What the hell is imaginary work? > > I think that Michael is implying that the stories that the critics > seem to be analyzing don't really exist (that is, they've > misunderstood enough details that they couldn't _possibly_ be talking > about what Tolkien wrote). To use his phrasing somewhat, instead of > discussing Tolkien's actual works, the critics have ended up analyzing > works that exist only in their own imaginations. > > Now that I've pounded that explanation into the ground, I just thought > I'd say that I thought Michael's phrasing was rather funny. :) I > haven't really read enough Tolkien criticism to judge these things for > myself. > Steuard Jensen > > Another interpretation of an imaginary work could be "The Red Book of Westmarch" or the "Necronomicon" I suppose. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "robin evans" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: 14 Feb 2000 16:38:13 GMT Organization: Redecraft Ltd Lines: 49 Message-ID: <01bf770b$2f5ec9b0$f8af050a@itc253205> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: igas2-2.igas.postoffice.co.uk X-Trace: newsreaderg2.core.theplanet.net 950546293 15727 194.152.87.163 (14 Feb 2000 16:38:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2000 16:38:13 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net Cache-Post-Path: igateway.postoffice.co.uk!unknown@10.5.175.248 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14325 SMGCFAM wrote in article <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com>... > Another interesting thing about reading criticism--there are > often mentions of other authors who may be interesting to become acquainted > with. It is through Tolkien criticism that I became aware of C.S. Lewis, > Charles Williams, and Owen Barfield, and other fellow Inklings (I was even > inspired to read W.H. Lewis' book, The Splendid Century, which has nothing to > do with fantasy because he, like his brother, was an Inkling.) I also > discovered Chesterton and Belloc through my interest in JRRT and his critics. > Need I mention Mediveal history and literature, classic fantasists like William > Morris, Mervyn Peake, E.R.Eddison and Hope Mirless, etc. etc. etc. In other > words, starting from an early edition of The Hobbit that my brother picked up > about 33 years ago a huge tree (like Niggle's!) has sprouted for me and I have > traced the convolutions of its branches, felt its gnarled bark, smelled its > pungent flowers, tasted its tangy fruit and have had a heck of a good ride....I > wish you the same. > Totally agree! Once you're up the tree, you keep finding branches that look interesting, then you find you're in a different tree... maybe you even find a new forest you didn't know about!! I made similarly exciting discoveries, including: CSLewis (rediscovery), GKChesterton, Dorothy L Sayers, George Macdonald Charles Williams..... ... and eventually covering such diverse writers as: Roger Zelazny, Ellis Peters, Andre Norton, Ann Granger, Alan Garner, Ursula LeGuin, Benoit Mandelbrot, Viereck & Eldridge... ... and the road goes ever on (or something!) but it's fun! Robin ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 38 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:40:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 950560813 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:40:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:40:13 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14371 Quoth StevieRayVonnegut : > I tend to agree that most literary criticism is about as exciting > a read as the Icelandic phone book. But is not most of the on > topic discussion in this newsgroup literary criticism? That's an interesting question. Of course, Michael is pretty much right when he says that most literary criticism deals more with themes than with details, or at least that fits with my experience and understanding of the term. But... When I took a course on Chaucer in college, I found that a reasonable fraction of the scholarly works out there _did_ deal at least in part with details. I'm blanking on most of the examples I remember at the moment, but one does come to mind: there's active debate as to whether or not Alys (the Wife of Bath) killed one or more of her earlier husbands. Along vaguely similar lines, there is also very active discussion of real people who may have served as inspirations for Chaucer's characters. The point is, sometimes discussions not unlike the ones we have here are actually published in scholarly literary journals and given as much respect as anything else. This naturally begs the question: in a few hundred years, when _The Lord of the Rings_ is one of the few examples of 20th century English that still commands attention both from scholars and non-specialists (much like Chaucer is today), will we newsgroup regulars be recalled as some of the earliest serious scholars of his works? Will those future historians and English professors excitedly pour over fragments of threads gleaned from the ancient hard drives of Deja.com? Just a funny thought... :) Steuard Jensen "...While the coincidence of names is quite striking, it would be beyond credulity to believe that this noted Tolkien scholar and archivist was the same Steuard Jensen who received the Nobel prize for his proof of the Generalized M-Duality Theorem and the subsequent unification of physics..." ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <889qsv$1eo_014@news.uswest.net> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:08:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.186 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950562364 207.224.149.186 (Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:06:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:06:04 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14335 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >This naturally begs the question: in a few hundred years, when _The >Lord of the Rings_ is one of the few examples of 20th century English >that still commands attention both from scholars and non-specialists >(much like Chaucer is today), will we newsgroup regulars be recalled >as some of the earliest serious scholars of his works? Will those >future historians and English professors excitedly pour over fragments >of threads gleaned from the ancient hard drives of Deja.com? Just a >funny thought... :) Compared to the volumes of tripe which were produced in the 1950s and 1960s, and to the nonsense coming out of David Day's publishers these days, I'd say we might well be regarded as the first generation of serious Tolkien scholars, regardless of how accurate (or inaccurate) the description would be. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Pokemon news and links: http://www.xenite.org/pokemon/ //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... ###### X-Originating-Host: 209.30.64.133 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 17 From: StevieRayVonnegut Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <0bbf99a5.372e98eb@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> <889qsv$1eo_014@news.uswest.net> Bytes: 672 X-Wren-Trace: eBA1HRwFQghDUhEbHlIEGgkNFRgXEUJXNQUeGxYLR1MQGxBDTglLTUxfQkFQAVBU Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:32:16 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.15 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 950574406 10.0.2.15 (Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:26:46 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:26:46 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14352 Curiously, if I go off on a theme related criticism like say--Gandalf was a Christ figure---or--Aragorn was a classic Epic Hero---does it eventually become boring repeatative drivel? (Well it might if I wrote it.) Or is it better to go off on the ---Samwise was based on Tolkien's childhood friend who talked to plants---direction? Just curious if literary criticism can ever be exciting and fun and if so, how to go about it. StevieRayVonnegut, Secretary of Education, Rohan Independent School District. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: "Renée Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:44:18 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 27 Message-ID: <38A911E1.A9363BF8@cable.a2000.nl> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> <889qsv$1eo_014@news.uswest.net> <0bbf99a5.372e98eb@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 950604248 23639 62.108.12.92 (15 Feb 2000 08:44:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2000 08:44:08 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news-x.support.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14308 StevieRayVonnegut wrote: > Curiously, if I go off on a theme related criticism like > say--Gandalf was a Christ figure---or--Aragorn was a classic Epic > Hero---does it eventually become boring repeatative drivel? > (Well it might if I wrote it.) Or is it better to go off on the > ---Samwise was based on Tolkien's childhood friend who talked to > plants---direction? > > Just curious if literary criticism can ever be exciting and fun > and if so, how to go about it. > > I'd call the `Samwise was based on Tolkien's childhood friend' thing biographism in the most one-dimensional sense, not literary criticism. It's irrelevant to the interpretation of the text Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:58:29 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <88bbgk$5vj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com> <38A571F5.36FC27F3@tamiu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 15 10:58:29 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14316 > What happened to Wilson? His daughter loved the book and gave it to him. He hated > it and from the review missed most of what was important in it. He had the grand > father of imagined works. But others who are reliable have called Wilson the best > critic of the last century. How could he be so far wrong? > > I suspect he had a list of what was important in "literature" and did not find much > of it in LOR. If you think that fiction can only deal with one person and how they > change in the course of the story, there is not much room for other things that are > important to Tolkien and to science fiction. But actually Tolkien had that too. > You just had to pay attention. So, did he see the surface and not the content. > All he wrote about was school boys on a lark. > > I know he went sadly wrong, but I don't know how or why exactly. > > I feel sorry for him and wonder what I am missing for the same reasons. We should > all look about now and then. And reexamine our views. > > Wilson was definately a great critic but his area of interest lay exclusively with what would be called modern literature, a heroic romance a la LoTR just was not his cup of tea. O.K O.K I know Tolkien's work is as relevant today as it would have been at almost any era of the past but you must admit it takes pretty serious study of it to appreciate that fact, maybe Wilson just did not have the time to do the job properly. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### X-Originating-Host: 209.30.64.18 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 17 From: StevieRayVonnegut Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <2317e5f1.c6509090@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> Bytes: 786 X-Wren-Trace: eJy5kZCJzoTP3p2Xkt6IloWBmZSbnc7buYmSl5qHy9+cl5zPwoXHwcDTzs3cjdc= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:24:51 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.36 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 950613820 10.0.2.36 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:23:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:23:40 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14348 I would love to see scholars and archeologists pouring over "Do Balrogs Have Wings" string, or the cast lists and summaries strings regarding the movie. It reminds me of an old sci-fi novel A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ --monks after ww3 diefying grocery lists. It is a very silly tangent to conceptualize anything you do as being poured over by scientists and scholars in the future, thanks for bringing it up Steuard. I am sure they will think we all worshiped monitors/tvs, and went to church in skyscrapers and malls--and how right would they be? StevieRayVonnegut, Chief Archeologist, Houston Municipal Dump and Museum * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:05:28 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b3.3b X-Server-Date: 15 Feb 2000 17:03:32 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14356 Said sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >This naturally begs the question: in a few hundred years, when _The >Lord of the Rings_ is one of the few examples of 20th century English >that still commands attention both from scholars and non-specialists >(much like Chaucer is today), will we newsgroup regulars be recalled >as some of the earliest serious scholars of his works? Well, it prompts the question, anyway. :-) I used to subscribe (and contribute) to a 'zine called /Beyond Bree/, and occasionally to more professionally edited publications. Like a lot of people, I imagine, I let those subscriptions lapse when Usenet got big. From time to time I wonder whether all the energy spent in quickly-dashed-off Usenet articles hasn't resulted in an overall *drop* in the quality of discourse, compared to those printed publications, whether quantity hasn't vitiated quality -- even without considering trolls, flames, and general silliness. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:06:27 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> <2317e5f1.c6509090@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b3.3b X-Server-Date: 15 Feb 2000 17:04:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14362 Said buckbucknumber1NObuSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid (StevieRayVonnegut) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I would love to see scholars and archeologists pouring over "Do >Balrogs Have Wings" string, or the cast lists and summaries >strings regarding the movie. Wouldn't that depend a lot on *what* they pour over them? :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> <8829ub$2f0_004@news.uswest.net> <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl> <8846gk$21g_008@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 59 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.38.18.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 950643366 38.38.18.166 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:06 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-ELN-Date: Tue Feb 15 11:36:06 2000 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:36:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14384 Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8846gk$21g_008@news.uswest.net... > In article <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl>, "Renée Vink" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> I'm still trying to figure out how my qualification for Shippey and Fleiger > >> intended to imply they stand out from the crowd -- suggests they should be > >> lumped in with the crowd. I rather expected SOMEONE to read that the wrong > >> way, but I was kind of surprised it would be you. > > > >But this is what you wrote: > > > >> In my opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about > >> Tolkien", Tom Shippey and Verlyn Fleiger's efforts not withstanding. > > > >This suggests Shippey's `Road to Middle-earth' is not a good literary criticism > > text about Tolkien. > > I also said I found all literary criticism to be rather boring. Shippey and > Fleiger may be good critics, but I still find the stuff boring. Hence, in my > opinion, there is no such thing as "good literary criticism texts about > Tolkien." Then what you really meant was "there are no exciting or interesting criticism texts about Tolkien" > > >> And I have never denigrated Shippey's book. I have merely pointed out that > >> his identification of the Rohirrim with the Anglo-Saxons of poetry is > >> extremely weak. > > > >Even if you're right, that doesn't invalidate the study as a whole. > > Who is right is irrelevant to my point. I was expressing a personal opinion > about literary criticism in general. It holds no interest for me. Or maybe "IMO there is no such thing as interesting literary criticism". Both these statements are far different in meaning and implication than what you stated. What you stated is akin to "I do not like lasagna therefore there is no such thing as good lasagna". Until you can appreciate lasagna itself, making statements about good or bad lasagna is irrelevant. The same holds true with literary criticism - if you hold all literary criticism to be uninteresting, then pointing out that there is no good critical texts about Tolkein is misleading and pointless. David ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <38A26BEA.59A96482@tu-clausthal.de> <38a4da2e@queeg.apci.net> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.38.18.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 950643368 38.38.18.166 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:08 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-ELN-Date: Tue Feb 15 11:36:08 2000 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:36:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14386 mg wrote in message news:38a4da2e@queeg.apci.net... > > "Stan Brown" wrote in message > news:MPG.130deb2a1ca8d97198ab92@news.mindspring.com... > > Said mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) in > > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:42:35 +0100, Florian Voigts > > > wrote: > > >>I remember some paragraphs in the biography of Tolkien and in the > > >>beginning of the LotR, that said that Tolkien didn´t write his book as a > > >>allegory and that he deosn´t like it poeple interpreting his works as > > >>allegories. > > > > > >Not exactly. He said that he didn't _write_ the book as an allegory, but > > >he saw nothing wrong with the _reader_ finding something symbolic or > > >otherwise 'allegorical' about it. > > > > Actually, he said he detests 'allegory', but that that's > > different from 'applicability'. Here's the relevant paragraph > > from the foreword to LotR: > > > > "Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or > > views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I > > cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always > > have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its > > presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied > > applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think > > that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one > > resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the > > purposed domination of the author." > > And this is yet but another reason to love Tolkien. He saw very clearly > that some would try and attach some special message to his work, when all he > wanted to do was write story for the enjoyment of his readers. If they > found something in it, it came from within themselves. He would not force > them down any avenue of thought. Ever since I read this statement years ago > I was awed by his foresight. > He does not force one down a particular avenue of thought but the thoughts he gives are compelling none-the-less. For example, Frodo may not represent anyone in particular but his dedication to what he perceived as the "right thing to do" is a idea which cannot be gotten around. There may be no "special messages" in his work but there are definetly particular ideas and values which Tolkein puts forth. This is the power of myth and no writer has done as well as he is doing this. It is not just an work to entertain, it is a work flowing from the consistent worldview of Tolkein as applied to a imaginary world. David ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com> <01bf770b$2f5ec9b0$f8af050a@itc253205> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.38.18.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 950643369 38.38.18.166 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:09 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:09 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-ELN-Date: Tue Feb 15 11:36:09 2000 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:36:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14382 robin evans wrote in message news:01bf770b$2f5ec9b0$f8af050a@itc253205... > > > SMGCFAM wrote in article > <20000211202606.22497.00002460@ng-cq1.aol.com>... > > Another interesting thing about reading criticism--there are > > often mentions of other authors who may be interesting to become > acquainted > > with. It is through Tolkien criticism that I became aware of C.S. Lewis, > > Charles Williams, and Owen Barfield, and other fellow Inklings (I was > even > > inspired to read W.H. Lewis' book, The Splendid Century, which has > nothing to > > do with fantasy because he, like his brother, was an Inkling.) I also > > discovered Chesterton and Belloc through my interest in JRRT and his > critics. > > Need I mention Mediveal history and literature, classic fantasists like > William > > Morris, Mervyn Peake, E.R.Eddison and Hope Mirless, etc. etc. etc. In > other > > words, starting from an early edition of The Hobbit that my brother > picked up > > about 33 years ago a huge tree (like Niggle's!) has sprouted for me and I > have > > traced the convolutions of its branches, felt its gnarled bark, smelled > its > > pungent flowers, tasted its tangy fruit and have had a heck of a good > ride....I > > wish you the same. > > > > Totally agree! > Once you're up the tree, you keep finding branches that look interesting, > then you find you're in a different tree... > maybe you even find a new forest you didn't know about!! > > I made similarly exciting discoveries, including: > CSLewis (rediscovery), GKChesterton, Dorothy L Sayers, George Macdonald > Charles Williams..... Definetly plus: Lloyd Alexander, Madeline L'Engle (sp?) David ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> <889qsv$1eo_014@news.uswest.net> <0bbf99a5.372e98eb@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.38.18.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 950643370 38.38.18.166 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:10 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:36:10 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-ELN-Date: Tue Feb 15 11:36:10 2000 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:36:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14383 StevieRayVonnegut wrote in message news:0bbf99a5.372e98eb@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com... > Curiously, if I go off on a theme related criticism like > say--Gandalf was a Christ figure---or--Aragorn was a classic Epic > Hero---does it eventually become boring repeatative drivel? > (Well it might if I wrote it.) Or is it better to go off on the > ---Samwise was based on Tolkien's childhood friend who talked to > plants---direction? > > Just curious if literary criticism can ever be exciting and fun > and if so, how to go about it. > > StevieRayVonnegut, > Secretary of Education, > Rohan Independent School District. How about in terms of the "applicability" of the ideas? Such as Boromir's mistake shows the result of greed, temptation, evil things cannot bring about good ends, or that the ends do not justify the means. Or Sam's dedication to Frodo as a representation of what true friendship means. Aragorn as an example of true nobility (esp. as seen from the perspective of class conscience society). Faramir-Denethor as contrast of pessimism and hope. Etc, etc. David ###### X-Originating-Host: 209.30.66.248 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 18 From: StevieRayVonnegut Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <12b74fc8.ab4c6f75@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> <889qsv$1eo_014@news.uswest.net> <0bbf99a5.372e98eb@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com> Bytes: 826 X-Wren-Trace: eBUwGBkARw1GVxQeG1cBHwwIEB0SFEdSMAAbHhMOQlYVHhVGSwxOSElaR0ZVB1Ja Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:53:21 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.55 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon2 950669275 10.0.2.55 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:47:55 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:47:55 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ70!remarQ.com!supernews.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon2.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14397 I wasn't suggesting specific topics David, only suggesting that various tangents spark varrying levels of interest from differing groups of readers due to their education/character likes and dislikes in the text/favourite colour etc. Though I did once in High School (about 400 years ago, I went to Aztec High) actually write a paper on Aragorn fitting the sterotypical Epic Conventions spat forth by my instructor. It was pure ca-ca as they say in Mexico, but it got me an "A" when I was 15--he he he. I like the Denethor/Faramir idea though. Give us a few 'graphs of that if you are willing. StevieRayVonnegut, Assistant Copy Boy, Numenor National Inquirer * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:52:40 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.68.106 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 950683916 212.159.68.106 (Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:51:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:51:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14375 Stan Brown wrote in message ... >I used to subscribe (and contribute) to a 'zine called /Beyond >Bree/, and occasionally to more professionally edited >publications. Like a lot of people, I imagine, I let those >subscriptions lapse when Usenet got big. > >From time to time I wonder whether all the energy spent in >quickly-dashed-off Usenet articles hasn't resulted in an overall >*drop* in the quality of discourse, compared to those printed >publications, whether quantity hasn't vitiated quality -- even >without considering trolls, flames, and general silliness. It hasn't in the case of the Tolkien Society's publications, Amon Hen and Mallorn, to which I have been subscribing for the last 17 years (and for which I have 3 years back issued from before that). Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me ###### From: "Renée Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:59:48 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 31 Message-ID: <38AA58F4.227988F1@cable.a2000.nl> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 950687992 4021 62.108.12.92 (16 Feb 2000 07:59:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2000 07:59:52 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14379 Andrew Wells wrote: > Stan Brown wrote in message ... > >I used to subscribe (and contribute) to a 'zine called /Beyond > >Bree/, and occasionally to more professionally edited > >publications. Like a lot of people, I imagine, I let those > >subscriptions lapse when Usenet got big. > > > >From time to time I wonder whether all the energy spent in > >quickly-dashed-off Usenet articles hasn't resulted in an overall > >*drop* in the quality of discourse, compared to those printed > >publications, whether quantity hasn't vitiated quality -- even > >without considering trolls, flames, and general silliness. > > It hasn't in the case of the Tolkien Society's publications, Amon Hen and > Mallorn, to which I have been subscribing for the last 17 years (and for > which I have 3 years back issued from before that). > It's nice to hear they're still going strong. I was one of those who stopped subscribing. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:42:44 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <88jsq2$6lg$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <885ab1$ste@chronicle.concentric.net> <1b615ad0.3e6bc6a9@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 18 16:42:44 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x27.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14453 In article , "Andrew Wells" wrote: > Stan Brown wrote in message ... > >I used to subscribe (and contribute) to a 'zine called /Beyond > >Bree/, and occasionally to more professionally edited > >publications. Like a lot of people, I imagine, I let those > >subscriptions lapse when Usenet got big. > > > >From time to time I wonder whether all the energy spent in > >quickly-dashed-off Usenet articles hasn't resulted in an overall > >*drop* in the quality of discourse, compared to those printed > >publications, whether quantity hasn't vitiated quality -- even > >without considering trolls, flames, and general silliness. > > It hasn't in the case of the Tolkien Society's publications, Amon Hen and > Mallorn, to which I have been subscribing for the last 17 years (and for > which I have 3 years back issued from before that). > > Andrew > -- > Andrew Wells > > Change 10 to 9 to reach me > Generally true, but did you see the last issue? boyoboyoboy AH 161 was a stinker. On the other hand I've gotta say that usenet doesn't seem to be the place for serious discussion of anything. OK I'm a newbie but the forums I've been looking at consist mostly of flames and trolls, finding the decent stuff and conducting a reasonable discussion of anything is ridiculously time consuming. It is also incredibly frustrating to wade through all the shite to get to the treasure. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87tmjc$mvf$1@news.ox.ac.uk> <87ut6b$31g_008@news.uswest.net> <20%o4.1314$74.56259@stones> <8829ub$2f0_004@news.uswest.net> <38A533AB.7C3871A4@cable.a2000.nl> Subject: Re: Good Tolkien Literary Criticism Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:04:37 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.75.239 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 951332654 212.159.75.239 (Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:04:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:04:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14767 On 11 February, I said this in a posting, in response to a posting from Michael Martinez: "I think that this is the fourth time in the last year and a half that you have denigrated Tom Shippey's book in these newsgroups. On each occasion, I have asked what you don't like about it, but you have never bothered to reply." Following email correspondence between myself and Michael, I have conducted a search (reasonably thorough, but not complete or exhaustive) of Deja and of my own archives. I have not been able to find any postings where Michael has denigrated Tom Shippey's book "The Road to Middle-earth", or taken significant exception to it, beyond disagreeing with his identification of the Rohirrim with the Anglo-Saxons. It seems as though my memory of events may be at fault. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me