Message-ID: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> From: Brady Severns Reply-To: bradyseverns@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Glamdring and Orcrist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.153.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 949560456 168.191.153.99 (Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:47:36 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:47:36 PST Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-ELN-Date: Wed Feb 2 22:47:36 2000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 06:47:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13480 In The Hobbit, Gandalf and Thorin discover two famed swords of the Elves, Glamdring and Orcrist (blooded on Orcs in the time before Gondolin's ruin) in the larder of a trio of Trolls. To me, their recovery is only a little less remarkable than the rediscovery of the One Ring by Bilbo. (Even Bilbo walked out of that plunder with an ancient Elven dagger, not to mention the remarkable corselet of Mithril Thorin gives him near book's end.) Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was a "loremaster!" Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ Maybe the Trolls used them on the Goblins, but the context of their knowledge is that the Goblins of Goblin Town were aware of their use against Goblin-kind before the walls of Gondolin. If the Trolls had taken them from some Elves of Rivendell, who had before used them in the passes of the Misty Mountains against Goblins of Goblin Town, I'm even more incredulous that Elrond would let them go! OR was the Great Goblin really that old? ...Or should I just "consider the source," so to speak. That _The Hobbit_ was supposedly first drafted by Bilbo as _There and Back Again: A Hobbit's Holiday_ and such discrepancies are Bilbo's "fault?" Brady ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <87b9mh$3r4_010@news.uswest.net> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 34 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:11:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.73 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 949561524 207.224.147.73 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 01:05:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 01:05:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13544 In article <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net>, bradyseverns@earthlink.net wrote: >Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf >and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? Maybe he was a big believer in Finders/Keepers? >Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's >kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber >and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... Gandalf likened to a precocious teenager. Hm.... >Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the >swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their >heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was a >"loremaster!" The book says he was a Wizard, whatever that means. Does it really mean "loremaster"? >Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so >long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those >marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call >them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ The ornate carvings on their hilts clearly gave them away in the brightness of their glows. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist From: Gary Patterson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net><87b9mh$3r4_010@news.uswest.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 NNTP-Posting-Host: sllst1p12.ozemail.com.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 949577494 203.108.69.156 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 22:31:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 22:31:34 EST Organization: OzEmail Pty Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 22:31:28 +1100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13739 Michael Martinez wrote... > In article <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net>, bradyseverns@earthlink.net > wrote: >> Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf >> and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? > > Maybe he was a big believer in Finders/Keepers? > I think these swords were valuable, but perhaps not so valuable that Elrond would ask for them from someone he (surely) suspects to be a Maia. Also, he probably thought Gandalf and Bilbo would get more use out of them. Elrond was supposed to be wise, after all. >> Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's >> kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber >> and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... > > Gandalf likened to a precocious teenager. Hm.... > >> Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the >> swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their >> heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was a >> "loremaster!" > > The book says he was a Wizard, whatever that means. Does it really mean > "loremaster"? My idea here is that while Gandalf surely knew many things, he may have been unsure of the dialect or style of runes used in the inscriptions. He probably had a good idea, but wanted confirmation from Elrond. > >> Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so >> long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those >> marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call >> them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ > > The ornate carvings on their hilts clearly gave them away in the brightness of > their glows. I suspect that it's stretching credulity to think that the Orcs, with their weak use of writing and poor languages, would hand down a tradition on every named sword used in the First Age. With all the special weapons, armours, enchanted items and whatnot in the First Age, even some of the powers would have had difficulty (unless they used _Janes Weapons of the First Age_, available in hardcover for a few coins of little worth). I believe Tolkien put the recognition of the weapons in to enhance their 'power' in the book. Gary Patterson ---------------------------------------------- Move along. Nothing to see here. Move along... ---------------------------------------------- ###### From: crpnteron@cs.com (Crpnteron) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 03 Feb 2000 11:57:08 GMT References: <87b9mh$3r4_010@news.uswest.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <20000203065708.05647.00001114@ng-fz1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13709 I believe Gandalf Knew how to read any runes but he would have the protocal to allow Elrond to describe them in his house..Gandalf would always try to make Elrond look good...And if cirdan could give a ring to gandalf the sword would be paltry at best....Im sure they were proud to have a wizard wearing their Heirlooms And to finish,Ya dont wanna get Gandalf Mad!!!!!!RON ###### Message-ID: <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 106 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:27:15 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.136 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 949588108 194.125.145.136 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:28:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:28:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13788 Brady Severns wrote: > > In The Hobbit, Gandalf and Thorin discover two famed swords of the > Elves, Glamdring and Orcrist (blooded on Orcs in the time before > Gondolin's ruin) in the larder of a trio of Trolls. To me, their > recovery is only a little less remarkable than the rediscovery of the > One Ring by Bilbo. (Even Bilbo walked out of that plunder with an > ancient Elven dagger, not to mention the remarkable corselet of > Mithril Thorin gives him near book's end.) *nods* > Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf > and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? He's just that kind of guy. Besides, who better to keep them and put them to good use? You're forgetting Elrond was foresighted and both Thorin and Gandalf had many battles ahead of them. > Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's > kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber > and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... Nope. Stormbringer or Mournblade were sentient blades and could only be worn by one of the Blood Royal of Melniboné, someone who had both the right and the destiny to wear it. Rackhir, the Red Archer present at the time of the retrieval of Mournblade by Elric from the Pulsing Cavern, could not have taken the blade. And of course Excaliber could only be drawn by That Certain Person, again the issue of who had the right and who was fated to pull the sword free was central. Neither Glamdring nor Orcrist had such high lineages. Andúril/Narsil reforged, may have had such a high lineage however, although it was played down in LOTR. The scabbard for the sword was possessed of the property that any blade drawn from it would never be stained or broke neven in defeat. The sword itself was apparently linked to the Numenorean bloodline. Aragorn appeared to state as much; something along the lines of "Death shall come to any man who draws Isilders blade save Isildurs Heir" [from memory - excuse any irregularity], said outside the Doors of Edoras IIRC. Others may argue that it was a boast to keep light fingers off the blade, but such would have been inappropriate given the forum and the fact that Aragorn had known the quality of the Rohirrim intimately, had ridden with them on a time. > Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the > swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their > heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was > a "loremaster!" Polite deferral perhaps, but probaly looking for an Expert Opinion on Elvish Swords, much the way a general antique Dealer will seek Expert Opinion outside his own expertise. Gandalf's expertise was not swords, IIRC... > Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so > long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those > marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call > them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ They was there nicknames for them and they had presumably passed into Goblin Lore. On their arrival in Lorien after passing through Moria, both Gimli and Legolas give advice about rivers and waters they had never seen, and Gimli recognises Durin's Stone and takes Frodo to look in Mirrormere. That Lore handed down for generations can still being relevant in a land where not much "progress" occurs is one of the subtler references in LOTR to Tolkien's outlook on life IMO. > Maybe the Trolls used them on the Goblins, but the context of their > knowledge is that the Goblins of Goblin Town were aware of their use > against Goblin-kind before the walls of Gondolin. If the Trolls had > taken them from some Elves of Rivendell, who had before used them in the > passes of the Misty Mountains against Goblins of Goblin Town, I'm even > more incredulous that Elrond would let them go! OR was the Great Goblin > really that old? Longevity of Goblins has been disputed. One argument I have read here referred to the conversations of Snaga and Gorbag in the Tower of Cirith Ungol as providing proof that Orc/Goblin memories went back to the last Alliance of Elves and Men {the good old days] i.e. Saurons previous overthrow at Isuldur's hand. The argument stems also from the general acceptance of the origin or Orcs as being corrupted Elves i.e corrupted or not, they would still be "immortal". > ...Or should I just "consider the source," so to speak. That _The > Hobbit_ was supposedly first drafted by Bilbo as _There and Back Again: > A Hobbit's Holiday_ and such discrepancies are Bilbo's "fault?" > > Brady No. I think you've raised valid points which might [if I were to take your latter point and expand on it a bit] in turn expose certain discrepancies, but they would be solely due to Tolkien's original conception of the Hobbit and its sometimes uneasy relatinoship with the Lord of the Rings [LOTR] IMO. Nice post. M. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 Feb 2000 15:39:42 GMT References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000203103942.17182.00000939@nso-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13695 In article <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net>, Brady Severns writes: >Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf >and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? >Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's >kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber >and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... There's a consistent current throughout Tolkien's works that certain items come into possession of certain peope, not by chance, but by the influence of higher powers. Things were *meant* to be found by certain people. Tuor found the armor, Frodo found the Ring, etc. And people are loathe to set aside such fateful discoveries. > >Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the >swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their >heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was a >"loremaster!" > >Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so >long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those >marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call >them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ These last two are both good points. Russ ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Message-ID: References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 12 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:23:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 949598589 208.170.95.202 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:23:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:23:09 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13773 In article <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net>, bradyseverns@earthlink.net wrote: > Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf > and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? > Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's > kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber > and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... Elrond saw at a glance that the two swords were shabby forgeries. Naturally, he wasn't going to tell Gandalf that. :) DS ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: 3 Feb 2000 17:23:35 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87cdio$1uh$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 949598616 2001 140.186.80.8 (3 Feb 2000 17:23:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 2000 17:23:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13510 In article <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net>, Brady Severns wrote: (Questions about Orcrist and Glamdring as they appear in _The Hobbit_) >...Or should I just "consider the source," so to speak. That _The >Hobbit_ was supposedly first drafted by Bilbo as _There and Back Again: >A Hobbit's Holiday_ and such discrepancies are Bilbo's "fault?" That's as good an in-story explanation as any for basic problem of _The Hobbit_ (in this context): when Tolkien wrote it he didn't know that it was going to be integral to later portion of the mythology whose earlier "history" was his major work-in-progress at the time. The uses of names such as "Gondolin" in _The Hobbit_ is all but incidental (I know not everybody agrees with me on this), and if he had known where he was heading he surely wouldn't have made either of them the sword of the king of Gondolin. Note that at this time Gandalf's identity as an emissary of the Valar had also not entered his mind; however, one could still explain away Gandalf's otherwise puzzling ignorance as yet another example of one of those things that he had "forgotten" as a result of his incarnation as human. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "Then roll in confectioner's sugar." -- Last instruction in the _Settlement Cookbook_'s recipe for Rum Balls ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 40 Date: 3 Feb 2000 10:38:55 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 949603156 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:39:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:39:16 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13618 On Thu, 03 Feb 2000 06:47:36 GMT, Brady Severns wrote: >Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf >and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? >Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's >kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber >and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... Because Elrond knew who Gandalf was and what he was doing, and figured he'd need the best sword he could get. Thorin wasn't exactly a random teenager either. He was descended from some of the great kings of the Dwarves. >Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the >swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their >heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was a >"loremaster!" He doesn't know everything. In particular, he was never in Gondolin, and we don't know what system of writing they used there. (Yes, probably the Tengwar, but there were a lot of local variations on the Tengwar.) Elrond was never in Gondolin either, but his father was born there, and some of the Elves of Rivendell (such as Glorfindel) were probably from Gondolin, so he'd probably seen their writing system once or twice. >Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so >long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those >marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call >them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ Lucky guess. >...Or should I just "consider the source," so to speak. That _The >Hobbit_ was supposedly first drafted by Bilbo as _There and Back Again: >A Hobbit's Holiday_ and such discrepancies are Bilbo's "fault?" I think that's a good explanation, though some people won't be satisfied with it. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 73 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:00:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 949611626 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:00:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:00:26 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13789 Quoth Michael O'Neill : > The sword [Anduril] itself was apparently linked to the Numenorean > bloodline. Aragorn appeared to state as much; something along the > lines of "Death shall come to any man who draws Isilders blade save > Isildurs Heir" I don't have any particular evidence here, but I've got to say that I've always read that in a more mundane way: "I'll beat the living daylight out of anyone who even thinks of messing with this sword." Brady Severns wrote: > > Third question: ...how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to > > call them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ > They was there nicknames for them and they had presumably passed > into Goblin Lore. I can certainly believe that "Beater" and "Biter" could have passed into Goblin Lore, but I have trouble believing that an exact description sufficiently precise to distinguish them from every other elven blade at the time would have survived. Goblin 1: Oh no! Beater and Bonker! Goblin 2: No, no, Ugduf, Bonker has _three_ red jewels in the hilt. That blasted dwarf's sword only has two. See that helix engraved on the blade? That's _Basher_. Goblin 3: You're both wrong. Two red jewels and a helix, yes, but the helix is _right_ handed, not left. That means it's Biter! Goblins 1 & 2: Oh, good point. Goblins 1, 2, and 3: Oh no! Beater and Biter! Thorin: Gandalf: Goblins 1, 2, and 3: Ah! Ugh! Glug... I just don't buy it. Of course, the only other real alternative is that Orcs were immortal just as Elves were, and while I find that idea intriguing, I'm hesitant to decide on it unconditionally. > On their arrival in Lorien after passing through Moria, > both Gimli and Legolas give advice about rivers and waters they had > never seen, and Gimli recognises Durin's Stone and takes Frodo to look > in Mirrormere. Right, but it could be argued that Gimli and Legolas had good reason to believe that those landmarks would be where they found them. I would suggest that upon walking into Lorien and finding a stream blocking his path, Legolas could reasonably conclude that it was the same stream that had crossed that path when the song was written. On the other hand, the goblins didn't have any reason to suppose that Beater and Biter were going to show up on their doorstep, particularly without a single elf in sight. > > ...Or should I just "consider the source," so to speak. That _The > > Hobbit_ was supposedly first drafted by Bilbo as _There and Back > > Again: A Hobbit's Holiday_ and such discrepancies are Bilbo's > > "fault?" This is a reasonably common strategy for dealing with apparent discrepancies between _The Hobbit_ and LotR. Whether it's the _best_ strategy or not is hotly debated (or at least, has been): it's dangerous for us as readers to throw away information that Tolkien as an author chose _not_ to reject or change. I'm sure the same issues are coming up in the current "Stone Giants" thread (I haven't read it yet). Steuard Jensen ###### From: "David L." Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:12:41 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.246 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 949619575 209.18.27.246 (Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:12:55 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:12:55 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13459 Brady Severns wrote in message news:3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net... > In The Hobbit, Gandalf and Thorin discover two famed swords of the > Elves, Glamdring and Orcrist (blooded on Orcs in the time before > Gondolin's ruin) in the larder of a trio of Trolls. To me, their > recovery is only a little less remarkable than the rediscovery of the > One Ring by Bilbo. (Even Bilbo walked out of that plunder with an > ancient Elven dagger, not to mention the remarkable corselet of Mithril > Thorin gives him near book's end.) > > Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf > and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? > Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's > kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber > and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... Who was Elrond to "allow" anyone to do anything? He did not claim to be a king and Tolkien never describes him as anything other than "Master". He might have demanded that Gandalf and Thorin deliver the heirlooms of his great-grandfather over to him, but why? > Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the > swords for him? I can understand if he might be unsure of their > heritage, but to not be able to read the runes? I thought Gandalf was a > "loremaster!" This is one of those mystries that we must accept by faith. > Third question: If the fall of Gondolin had happened so long before (so > long ago that Gandalf was unsure of the runes and heritage of those > marvelous swords), how did the Goblins of Goblin Town _know_ to call > them Beater and Biter _on sight?_ Same as above. Dave ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (ERK1030) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 Feb 2000 02:50:02 GMT References: <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000203215002.27898.00000133@ng-cr1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news.gigabell.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13615 According to M (as usual)..... >And of course ExcalibUr could only be drawn by That Certain Person, >again the issue of who had the right and who was fated to pull the sword >free was central. Excalibur was a gift from the Lady of the Lake. The sword drawn from the stone was not Excalibur. Actually, Excalibur wasn't really a marvelous sword; the *sheath* protected the wearer, and the sword was good, but not comprable to, say, Narsil? -Mithrigil ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:35:23 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.34 X-Server-Date: 4 Feb 2000 03:33:59 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13746 Said bradyseverns@earthlink.net (Brady Severns) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf >and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? >Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's >kinda like letting a couple of precocious teenagers hang onto Excaliber >and Stormbringer. "Finders keepers!" they'll point. Yeah, but... The swords were made by the Elves, but that is not to say that any particular Elf had title to them any more. Don't forget, the fall of Gondolin was upwards of six thousand years earlier. If a long-lost heirloom of Ferdinand and Isabella were to turn up today in, say, Italy, it would not automatically be the property of King Juan Carlos -- and that's a gap of a mere five hundred years. Elrond was Turgon's great-grandson, sure enough, but if he thought about the matter at all he may have thought that something lost so long really was a matter of "finders keepers", at least among the free peoples. I don't have an answer for your other points. There are a number of inconsistencies in /The Hobbit/ -- as (I think) Steuard pointed out, what happened to the dwarves' huge instruments? They wouldn't have left them at Bilbo's house, but they didn't carry them through Mirkwood, surely. I think we just have to accept that JRRT did not revise and re-revise /The Hobbit/ as he did the more serious parts of the mythology, and certain things just slipped through as part of a good story. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:44:22 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 8 Message-ID: <6851-389A4B16-8@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <87b9mh$3r4_010@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUApxwg21j6S2frIDP7MnEiy6TmKFECFHFWaWRzwTaICmLwIrXoU8GoR0vj Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13444 Michael Martinez wrote: >Gandalf likened to a precocious >teenager. Hm.... "Try some pipeweed, Saruman. You'll be cool..." --Dave ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 Feb 2000 04:35:18 GMT References: <20000203215002.27898.00000133@ng-cr1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000203233518.10589.00001202@nso-bh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13628 In article <20000203215002.27898.00000133@ng-cr1.aol.com>, erk1030@aol.com (ERK1030) writes: >According to M (as usual)..... > >>And of course ExcalibUr could only be drawn by That Certain Person, >>again the issue of who had the right and who was fated to pull the sword >>free was central. > >Excalibur was a gift from the Lady of the Lake. The sword drawn from the >stone >was not Excalibur. IIRC, T H White has Wart recieving it both ways. first he pulled it from the stone in "The Sword in the Stone" and then later he recieves it, possibly with a bit more formality, from the Lady of the Lake, although I can't recall whether he actually loses it, gives it up for a period of time to Merlin, or just hands it over to the Lady so she can give it back to him in some ceremony. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: 4 Feb 2000 05:07:04 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 27 Message-ID: <87dmpo$t09$1@news.asu.edu> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13455 In a previous article, bradyseverns@earthlink.net (Brady Severns) says: >In The Hobbit, Gandalf and Thorin discover two famed swords of the >Elves, Glamdring and Orcrist (blooded on Orcs in the time before >Gondolin's ruin) in the larder of a trio of Trolls. To me, their [snip] > >Anyway, my first question is: why did Elrond so casually allow Gandalf >and Thorin to keep such heirlooms of the High Elves of Gondolin? >Glamdring was said to have been worn by the King of that city! It's [snip Elrond probably had some of the Elvish foresight concering those swords. Glamdring proved _very_ useful later on. >Second question: Why did Gandalf need Elrond to read the runes of the >swords for him? [snip] It has been my opinion that Gandalf didn't become the "loremaster" that we know in LOTR until after TH. Remember, he did a _lot_ of research in Gondor and other places on the matter of the Rings of Power, trying to figure out if Bilbo's ring the one fo the Greater Rings. I find it quite believable that in TH he may not have known the Elvish script and needed Elrond's help to read it. -- ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: 4 Feb 2000 16:36:19 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 22 Message-ID: <87ev63$14dm$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 949682179 37302 140.186.80.8 (4 Feb 2000 16:36:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2000 16:36:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13492 In article , Stan Brown wrote: > >I don't have an answer for your other points. There are a number >of inconsistencies in /The Hobbit/ -- as (I think) Steuard >pointed out, what happened to the dwarves' huge instruments? They >wouldn't have left them at Bilbo's house, but they didn't carry >them through Mirkwood, surely. I think we just have to accept >that JRRT did not revise and re-revise /The Hobbit/ as he did the >more serious parts of the mythology, and certain things just >slipped through as part of a good story. JRRT did make significant revisions in _The Hobbit_ to bring it more into line with LotR, but to bring it completely and consistently into harmony with not only LotR but the whole _Silmarillion_ corpus would have required a lot of major rewriting, to relatively litle purpose. I don't imagine it ever entered his mind that conversations like this one would be taking place nearly 30 years after his death. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "I once had a very surreal Marengo with Derik." --Jeffrey William Sandris ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:48:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <87evsg$dee$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 04 16:48:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13479 Mr. Brown's (and Steuard's too) point: "what happened to the dwarves' huge instruments? They wouldn't have left them at Bilbo's house, but they didn't carry them through Mirkwood, surely. I think we just have to accept that JRRT did not revise and re-revise /The Hobbit/ as he did the more serious parts of the mythology, and certain things just slipped through as part of a good story." Dear Stan, Excellent point you made about the Drarve's musical instruments. I had never thought of it before, but where did those things go? I think your explanation makes a lot of sense to me (although maybe they did leave them at Bilbo's. He would have had the room). Death to Modell, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Stug Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 14:11:35 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <389B2467.E4DC0788@telerama.com> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <87evsg$dee$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13467 darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > > Mr. Brown's (and Steuard's too) point: "what happened to the dwarves' > huge instruments? They wouldn't have left them at Bilbo's house > Excellent point you made about the Drarve's musical instruments. I > had never thought of it before, but where did those things go? They're still sitting in storage lockers at the Green Dragon Inn. Stug -- I don't know half of you half as well as I would like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:45:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 949761942 12.79.22.130 (Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:45:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:45:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13527 Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:K%lm4.92$I3.1288@uchinews... > I can certainly believe that "Beater" and "Biter" could have > passed into Goblin Lore, but I have trouble believing that an > exact description sufficiently precise to distinguish them from > every other elven blade at the time would have survived. > On the other hand, the goblins didn't have any reason to suppose > that Beater and Biter were going to show up on their doorstep, > particularly without a single elf in sight. Regardless of whether there were Elves in the area or not those swords would have been INSTANTLY recognizable as elven (and possibly even Gondolin) make by any Orc on the grounds that they >glowed< in proximity to said Orcs. This is something of a giveaway. Now, going from 'Eek! Elf swords of Gondolin!' to 'Eek! Beater and Biter!' requires a bit more explaining. My reasoning; Consider that Orcrist was described by Elrond as a famous blade and that Glamdring was said to have been worn by Turgon. Is it unreasonable to suggest that these were the two MOST famous, most deadly, and most easily recognized swords in Gondolin? Perhaps the blades of Ecthelion and Turgon. If they were it would not seem incredible that they would be remembered and easily identified by the Orcs. Perhaps they glowed more brightly than the others. Glamdring is described in terms implying a form of sentience; perhaps the orcs could sense the hatred directed at them. Perhaps the blades were simply more ornate or had characteristics placed ONLY on those two. Whatever, I think that the implication from both Elrond and the Orcs is that Glamdring and Orcrist were not just any old elven swords. They were two specifically renowned swords even amongst the blades of Gondolin. ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (ERK1030) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Feb 2000 17:47:44 GMT References: <20000203233518.10589.00001202@nso-bh.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000205124744.26291.00001766@ng-cn1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13619 >>>And of course ExcalibUr could only be drawn by That Certain Person, >>>again the issue of who had the right and who was fated to pull the sword >>>free was central. >> >>Excalibur was a gift from the Lady of the Lake. The sword drawn from the >>stone >>was not Excalibur. > >IIRC, T H White has Wart recieving it both ways. first he pulled it from the >stone in "The Sword in the Stone" and then later he recieves it, possibly >with >a bit more formality, from the Lady of the Lake, although I can't recall >whether he actually loses it, gives it up for a period of time to Merlin, or >just hands it over to the Lady so she can give it back to him in some >ceremony. > >PB > White? Who said anything about White? I was referring to "le Morte D'Artur". -Mithrigil ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (ERK1030) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Feb 2000 17:54:38 GMT References: <389B2467.E4DC0788@telerama.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000205125438.26291.00001767@ng-cn1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13620 >> Mr. Brown's (and Steuard's too) point: "what happened to the dwarves' >> huge instruments? They wouldn't have left them at Bilbo's house > >> Excellent point you made about the Drarve's musical instruments. I >> had never thought of it before, but where did those things go? They could have been left in a Michel-Delving. That would be an ideal spot.... "And on your left are a 2 genuine dwarven clarinets, on loan from Thorin and Co....." -Mithrigil ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 44 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 19:50:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 949780255 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:50:55 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:50:55 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13424 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > I can certainly believe that "Beater" and "Biter" could have > > passed into Goblin Lore, but I have trouble believing that an > > exact description sufficiently precise to distinguish them from > > every other elven blade at the time would have survived. [Comparison to the ease with which Legolas recognized the Nimrodel:] > > On the other hand, the goblins didn't have any reason to suppose > > that Beater and Biter were going to show up on their doorstep, > > particularly without a single elf in sight. > Regardless of whether there were Elves in the area or not those > swords would have been INSTANTLY recognizable as elven (and possibly > even Gondolin) make by any Orc on the grounds that they >glowed< in > proximity to said Orcs. This is something of a giveaway. What a good point. :) Of course, there's still a big difference between recognizing a river as the Nimrodel because it's flowing at the edge of Lorien and recognizing a sword as Glamdring because it was probably from Gondolin. Still, very good point. > Is it unreasonable to suggest that these were the two MOST famous, > most deadly, and most easily recognized swords in Gondolin? Perhaps > the blades of Ecthelion and Turgon. If they were it would not seem > incredible that they would be remembered and easily identified by > the Orcs. I understand your general point here, but I still have trouble seeing how even the most famous swords' descriptions could be passed down for thousands of years with such clarity that the goblins could all recognize them at a glance. Even if they "glowed more brightly" than the other swords from Gondolin, how many of those goblins would have ever seen _any_ other sword from Gondolin before? Why would such a detailed description of those two swords be so universally known? I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I think it would require further explanation. On another note, it's interesting to note that the Goblins' fear of Glamdring must date back to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, not to the Fall of Gondolin: as far as I recall, all the available texts agree that Turgon remained in his tower throughout the battle. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 13 Date: 5 Feb 2000 21:51:56 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 949816320 198.172.26.10 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 05:52:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 05:52:00 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13579 On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 19:50:55 GMT, Steuard Jensen wrote: >On another note, it's interesting to note that the Goblins' fear of >Glamdring must date back to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, not to the >Fall of Gondolin: as far as I recall, all the available texts agree >that Turgon remained in his tower throughout the battle. But he was _killed_ in that battle, so obviously the attackers must have gotten into the tower. In that case, he'd have plenty of opportunities to use his own personal sword. He was probably standing there with Glamdring in his hands and blood all over his clothes and thirty dead Orcs at his feet when a Balrog flew through the window. ;-) ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 12:46:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 949841176 12.79.24.135 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 12:46:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 12:46:16 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13862 Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:za%m4.251$I3.2729@uchinews... > On another note, it's interesting to note that the Goblins' fear > of Glamdring must date back to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, not > to the Fall of Gondolin: as far as I recall, all the available > texts agree that Turgon remained in his tower throughout the > battle. I suspect he killed Orcs in the tower. There is also what the text says of Orcrist; "They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls." TH, Over Hill and Under Hill The 'hunted them in the hills' bit is interesting as the elves of Gondolin remained largely isolated to avoid giving away their location. It might refer to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, but it seems more to imply ongoing 'hunting'. The 'did battle before their walls' seems very likely to refer to the fall of Gondolin. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Amit Kotwal Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist X-Nntp-Posting-Host: everest Message-ID: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.11.00 (9000/802)) Sender: news@bhishma.cse.iitb.ernet.in (USENET News) Organization: Dept. of Computer Sci. & Engg., IIT Bombay, India References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:12:49 GMT Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!sangam!gateway.iitb.ernet.in!bhishma.cse!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14098 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : >> Steuard Jensen wrote: One assumption which everyone seems to be making is that Glamdring and Orcrist had not been after the fall of Gondolin, right up to the time Gandalf and Thorin used them. Is it not possible that they had been weilded (by Elves, most likely)? For all we know, they were killing orcs till a month or two before Gandalf came along, and had just found their way into the trolls' hands. This would explain how the orcs (or goblins) recognised them instantly. - Amit -- ###### From: Warren Chang Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:47:04 -0500 Organization: Hacque, Leeutt and Byrne Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38A242C8.E8A069EC@mindspring.com> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> Reply-To: warrenchang@newyorkcity.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.28.30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 10 Feb 2000 04:42:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14079 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > I understand your general point here, but I still have trouble seeing > how even the most famous swords' descriptions could be passed down for > thousands of years with such clarity that the goblins could all > recognize them at a glance. Even if they "glowed more brightly" than > the other swords from Gondolin, how many of those goblins would have > ever seen _any_ other sword from Gondolin before? Why would such a > detailed description of those two swords be so universally known? I'm > not saying it's impossible, just that I think it would require further > explanation. The obvious explanation is that not only did the swords glow in the presence of Orcs, they spelled out "GLAMDRING" and "ORCRIST" in glowing Elvish letters... Kinda like Jules having BAD M*THERF*CKER written on his wallet in Pulp Fiction :) Of course, that would mean that mountain Goblins received an education that included Elvish scripts of the First Age, but maybe it's a category on Orcish Jeopardy or something. -Warren ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <87tpnu$3mg_006@news.uswest.net> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> <38A242C8.E8A069EC@mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:35:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.202 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950167735 207.224.149.202 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:28:55 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:28:55 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14092 In article <38A242C8.E8A069EC@mindspring.com>, warrenchang@newyorkcity.com wrote: >The obvious explanation is that not only did the swords glow in the >presence of Orcs, they spelled out "GLAMDRING" and "ORCRIST" in glowing >Elvish letters... Kinda like Jules having BAD M*THERF*CKER written on >his wallet in Pulp Fiction :) > >Of course, that would mean that mountain Goblins received an education >that included Elvish scripts of the First Age, but maybe it's a category >on Orcish Jeopardy or something. Runes, not scripts, and the Orcs COULD read Elven runes, for what it's worth (and they wrote with the runes). -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### From: rmspageme Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:58:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87vc98$vvd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.76.159.30 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 10 21:58:03 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x23.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 167.76.159.30 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrmspageme Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14142 Simplier answer... Part of warfare is morale.. Part of morale is fear of your enemies... Part of fear of your enemies is your enemies reputation.. Thus, swords enchanted to slay goblins might pass insight into their minds of what they are.. to increase the goblin's fear of the weilder, their perception of his/her power, and the likelyhood that they would break morale and flee instead of stay and fight. In other words, the swords could use their long history and legacy as a source of power if they were able to put fear of goblins/orcs into them via passing on their true names/nature to them. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <87vl7r$17k_008@news.uswest.net> References: <3899173C.4AB2B658@earthlink.net> <38999043.99162855@indigo.ie> <87vc98$vvd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:30:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.121 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 950228650 209.181.118.121 (Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:24:10 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:24:10 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14168 In article <87vc98$vvd$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, rmspageme wrote: > In other words, the swords could use their long history and legacy as a >source of power if they were able to put fear of goblins/orcs into them >via passing on their true names/nature to them. Most of that long history and legacy appears to have consisted of being dragged from one hoard to the next. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// //\\ http://www.xenite.org/channels/electronic-publishing.html // \\ENITE.org.................................................... New Xena Polls: http://www.xenite.org/boards/xenaonln/wwwboard.html ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Glamdring and Orcrist Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 11 Feb 2000 13:39:07 GMT References: <87vl7r$17k_008@news.uswest.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000211083907.17182.00002318@nso-fz.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14187 In article <87vl7r$17k_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Most of that long history and legacy appears to have consisted of being >dragged from one hoard to the next. I don't know why anyone would assume the above. Perhaps the logic is "If we don't know what they were doing, then they must have been doing nothing." But it is at least strongly implied that the swords were killing orcs some time in the recent past. -- John Whelan