From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Avari to Aman? Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jan 2000 00:00:58 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000125190058.00423.00000958@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12980 I forgot which thread this came up in so I'll starta a new one. I found to quotes that indicate that at least at some tome, Tolkien felt that the Avari could not take ship and go by the Straight Road to Aman: Letter 154: "But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves - not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prine Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass pver Sea to the True West by the Straight Road, and so come to Erresea - but so to pass out of time and history and never return." Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Amroth and Nimrodel: Amroth speaks: "It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land" It is clear that Tolkien at least sometime conceived that the Avari were disallowed by their irrevocable choice made at Cuivienen not to go on the Great Journey. The two quotes are not entirely consistent but they agree on that point. The Letters quote, for example, appears to equate the Eldar with the High Elves. However, as we know, the High Elves were the Noldor, while the Eldar in Middle Earth included the Sindar and Nandor as well. Either was, the Avari are excluded The Unfinished Tales quote implies a two part extention of the grace by the Valar. Amroth's words imply that the grace was first granted only to those who made it to Beleriand. This is so because he uses the phrase "is granted *also now* to all who made the Great Journey. Going by this quote, the conception appears to be that the Nandor who never made it to Beleriand were at first not allowed to sail the Straight Path but sometime later the grace was extended to them. However, here too, the Avari are excluded. My initial thought was that all Elves, Eldar and Avari, were allowed to go by the Straight Path, but is there any text that clearly contradicts the above? Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86li5v$254_004@news.uswest.net> References: <20000125190058.00423.00000958@nso-cg.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:21:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.156 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 948849451 207.224.147.156 (Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:17:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:17:31 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12956 In article <20000125190058.00423.00000958@nso-cg.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >I found to quotes that indicate that at least at some tome, Tolkien felt that >the Avari could not take ship and go by the Straight Road to Aman: [snip] I have already pointed out where the invitation was extended for a second time to all the Elves. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jan 2000 03:06:10 GMT References: <86li5v$254_004@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12974 In article <86li5v$254_004@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >In article <20000125190058.00423.00000958@nso-cg.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(Russ) wrote: >>I found to quotes that indicate that at least at some tome, Tolkien felt >that >>the Avari could not take ship and go by the Straight Road to Aman: > >[snip] > >I have already pointed out where the invitation was extended for a second >time >to all the Elves. > I saw a message in which you mentioned the point but I didn't see the message where you cited the text. Could you point me in the right direction. Michael, just in case, I'm not disagreeing with you. I thought the same thing but I can't find the textual support. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86mcou$264_012@news.uswest.net> References: <86li5v$254_004@news.uswest.net> <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:54:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.84 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 948876529 209.181.118.84 (Wed, 26 Jan 2000 02:48:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 02:48:49 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12961 In article <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >I saw a message in which you mentioned the point but I didn't see the message >where you cited the text. Could you point me in the right direction. I gave a reference, which was THE LOST ROAD, end of the original "Quenta Silmarillion". I also pointed out where Christopher admitted to having changed the ending substantially. >Michael, just in case, I'm not disagreeing with you. I thought the same thing >but I can't find the textual support. Oh, the textual support is there. But it didn't look too good after the SILMARILLION massacre. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Message-ID: References: <86li5v$254_004@news.uswest.net> <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:13:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 948906806 208.170.95.147 (Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:13:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:13:26 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13032 In article <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > I saw a message in which you mentioned the point but I didn't see the message > where you cited the text. Could you point me in the right direction. I'll wager my CHOKLIT ~ that there is no such text. DS ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jan 2000 17:48:57 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000126124857.02420.00000627@nso-bk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13023 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) writes: >In article <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(Russ) wrote: > >> I saw a message in which you mentioned the point but I didn't see the >message >> where you cited the text. Could you point me in the right direction. > > I'll wager my CHOKLIT ~ that there is no such text. > In another message, Michael referred me to the end of the original version of Quenta Silmarillion found in The Lost Road. I'll have to look at it. But the next question, does that passage predate or postdate the contrary language in Letters and UT? It doesn't make sense to me that that Avari should be penalized for not going on the Great Journey. The Greay Journey was acknowledged after the fact to be a mistake by the Valar. There were presumably some Noldor who took part in the kinslayings that were accepted back. It makes not sense for the Avari to be denied. So, I'm hoping there is contradiction of those cites. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86ndr6$30o_008@news.uswest.net> References: <86li5v$254_004@news.uswest.net> <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:19:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.180 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 948910397 209.181.118.180 (Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:13:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:13:17 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13010 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: >In article <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(Russ) wrote: > >> I saw a message in which you mentioned the point but I didn't see the message >> where you cited the text. Could you point me in the right direction. > > I'll wager my CHOKLIT ~ that there is no such text. Good thing you have an endless supply of CHOKLIT to replace what you just lost. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86nfh5$30o_010@news.uswest.net> References: <20000126124857.02420.00000627@nso-bk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 80 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:48:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.180 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 948912127 209.181.118.180 (Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:42:07 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:42:07 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13008 In article <20000126124857.02420.00000627@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In another message, Michael referred me to the end of the original version of >Quenta Silmarillion found in The Lost Road. I'll have to look at it. But the >next question, does that passage predate or postdate the contrary language in >Letters and UT? Would it be significant? Tolkien managed to drop Fingolfin from the history of the High Elves relatively late in his life, but Christopher said of that omission: 9 Though he [Glorfindel] is not yet named in the unrevised part of THE SILMARILLION treating of this matter, it is recorded that many of the Noldor of Turgon's following were in fact grieved by the decision of their king, and dreaded that evil would soon result from it. In the Third Host, that of Finarfin, so many were of this mind that when Finarin heard the final doom of Mandos and repented, the greater part of that host returned to Valinor. Yet Finrod son of Finarfin, noblest of all the Noldor in the tales of Beleriand, also went away, for Turgon had been elected supreme lord of the Noldorin hosts. [In the ANNALS OF AMAN (X.113,$138) there was no suggestion that Finrod (=Finarfin) led a separate 'Third Host': 'Thus at the last the Noldor set forth divided in two hosts. Feanor and his following were in the van; but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin'; and the same was said in the QUENTA SILMARILLION (V.235,$68, not changed later). But this note carries an extreme departure from the tradtion, in the entire omission of Fingolfin. This has in fact been encountered before, in my father's very late work -- of this same period -- on the story of Maeglin, where relationships are distorted on account of a defective genealogy making Turgon the son of Finwe (XI.327); but here, in a central story of THE SILMARILLION, Turgon is called 'king', and 'supreme lord of the Noldorin hosts', and Fingolfin disappears. Of course it is not to be thought that my father actually intended such a catastrophic disruption of the narrative structure as this would bring about; and it is reassuring to see that in a reference elsewhere in these papers Fingolfin reappears.] (From THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, page 389) The nature of the Silvan Elves can clearly be shown to have changed through the years. But the abandonment of the early model (all Silvan Elves were East Elves) and the subsequent introduction of the Nandorin story doesn't necessarily invalidate the Avarin traditions that Tolkien later added back in. The tradition concerning who was summoned to Valinor after the War of Wrath is therefore no more "fixed" than the history of the Silvan Elves. Are they all Avari, all Nandor, or a mixture of Nandor and Avari? >It doesn't make sense to me that that Avari should be penalized for not going >on the Great Journey. The Greay Journey was acknowledged after the fact to be >a mistake by the Valar. There were presumably some Noldor who took part in the >kinslayings that were accepted back. It makes not sense for the Avari to be >denied. So, I'm hoping there is contradiction of those cites. There is contradiction only in that Tolkien originally conceived of the summons being reissued in the 1930s, and in that the Silvan Elves became a mixture of Nandor and Avari, but were nonetheless free to sail over Sea (as many of Amroth's people did, and later Legolas himself). The disctinctions between Eldar and Avari became blurred in the Vales of Anduin. But since Tolkien's letters reflect a changing perspective through the years (he does not exclude the Avari from sailing over Sea in his last reference, No. 325, written in 1971, whereas he excludes them in No. 154, written in 1954 soon after the publication of THE LORD OF THE RINGS) they must be viewed within the context of the times in which he wrote them. There is a clear contradiction between Tolkien's division of the Elves into two groups (West-elves, Eldar, and East-Elves, Silvan Elves) in THE LORD OF THE RINGS (which contains the story of Amroth and Nimrodel, who were Silvan Elves who sailed over Sea) and his letter of 1954 to Naomi Mitcheson where he speaks of the "other Elves" (as opposed to the High Elves) having made an irrevocable choice to stay in Middle-earth. He clearly dropped the ball on more than one occasion. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jan 2000 19:10:13 GMT References: <86ndr6$30o_008@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000126141013.01374.00000424@nso-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13017 In article <86ndr6$30o_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >In article , >dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: >>In article <20000125220610.00196.00000991@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >>(Russ) wrote: >> >>> I saw a message in which you mentioned the point but I didn't see the >message >>> where you cited the text. Could you point me in the right direction. >> >> I'll wager my CHOKLIT ~ that there is no such text. > >Good thing you have an endless supply of CHOKLIT to replace what you just >lost. The real question is why CHOKLIT is followed by a ~. Is there something I am missing? ;-} Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jan 2000 19:10:13 GMT References: <86nfh5$30o_010@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000126141013.01374.00000425@nso-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13018 In article <86nfh5$30o_010@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>In another message, Michael referred me to the end of the original version >of >>Quenta Silmarillion found in The Lost Road. I'll have to look at it. But >the >>next question, does that passage predate or postdate the contrary language >in >>Letters and UT? > >Would it be significant? Not necesssarily. But it's relevant to consider. > >The nature of the Silvan Elves can clearly be shown to have changed through >the years. But the abandonment of the early model (all Silvan Elves were >East >Elves) and the subsequent introduction of the Nandorin story doesn't >necessarily invalidate the Avarin traditions that Tolkien later added back >in. > The tradition concerning who was summoned to Valinor after the War of Wrath >is therefore no more "fixed" than the history of the Silvan Elves. Are they >all Avari, all Nandor, or a mixture of Nandor and Avari? I agree. Those who were included in the summons cannot be regarded as fixed. Both the conception of the subdivisions of the Quendi and the details of the grace of the Valar were very much works in progress. Russ ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Message-ID: References: <20000126124857.02420.00000627@nso-bk.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 45 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:47:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 948916043 208.170.95.147 (Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:47:23 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:47:23 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13035 In article <20000126124857.02420.00000627@nso-bk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > > I'll wager my CHOKLIT ~ that there is no such text. > > > > In another message, Michael referred me to the end of the original version of > Quenta Silmarillion found in The Lost Road. I'll have to look at it. But the > next question, does that passage predate or postdate the contrary language in > Letters and UT? > > It doesn't make sense to me that that Avari should be penalized for not going > on the Great Journey. The Greay Journey was acknowledged after the fact to be > a mistake by the Valar. There were presumably some Noldor who took part in the > kinslayings that were accepted back. It makes not sense for the Avari to be > denied. So, I'm hoping there is contradiction of those cites. I assume the reference is to para. 20: "But Fionwe marched through the western lands summmoning the remnant of the Noldor, and the Dark-elves that had not yet looked on Valinor, to join with the thralls released and to depart from Middle-earth." And who are these Dark-elves?: See para. 26: "In those days there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and especially upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of ancient Beleriand. Thence in many a fleet the survivors of the Gnomes, and of the companies of the Dark-elves of Doriath and Ossiriand, set sail into the West and came never again into the lands of weeping and of war." That is, the "Dark-elves" are the Ilkorins of Doriath (the later Sindar) and the Danians of Ossiriand (the later Nandor). Nothing is said about the Lembi (the later Avari), who did not dwell in the "western lands" where Fionwe issued his summons. Nor is there an indication whether the summons was good for just that period at the end of the First Age (and if you missed it you were out of luck) or whether it was good for all time. This passage dates from c. 1937; the passages referring to the exclusion of the Avari date from much later: Letter 154 from 1954, and the "Amroth and Nimrodel" passage (which appears to be definitive) from 1969. So even if para. 20 did refer to the Avari (and I'll give up half my ~ because it seems to me not entirely unreasonable to suppose that "Dark-elves" included Avari, though I don't think para. 20 actually refers to them) it would have been rendered obsolete by the later texts. David Salo ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:12:25 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <86o2u5$e7g$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <86nfh5$30o_010@news.uswest.net> <20000126141013.01374.00000425@nso-fa.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.235 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 948932357 14576 12.79.23.235 (27 Jan 2000 00:19:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2000 00:19:17 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13075 Russ wrote in message news:20000126141013.01374.00000425@nso-fa.aol.com... > Both the conception of the subdivisions of the Quendi and the > details of the grace of the Valar were very much works in > progress. Heck... all of it was very much work in progress. That doesn't change the fact that JRRT apparently never said that the Avari (or all elves) were allowed to sail into the West. I agree that logically they should have been, but I haven't seen any references indicating that JRRT ever said so. That it was a work in progress means he might have eventually come to that conclusion and we cannot exclude it completely... but certainly does not support the claim that this was his conclusion on the matter. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Jan 2000 01:47:41 GMT References: <86o2u5$e7g$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13064 In article <86o2u5$e7g$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Both the conception of the subdivisions of the Quendi and the >> details of the grace of the Valar were very much works in >> progress. > >Heck... all of it was very much work in progress. That doesn't >change the fact that JRRT apparently never said that the Avari (or >all elves) were allowed to sail into the West. I agree that >logically they should have been, but I haven't seen any references >indicating that JRRT ever said so. That it was a work in progress >means he might have eventually come to that conclusion and we cannot >exclude it completely... but certainly does not support the claim >that this was his conclusion on the matter. > True. It's just a guess that he would have come out one way or the other. But it's surprising he excluded them at all.. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86ov0k$1jg_018@news.uswest.net> References: <20000126124857.02420.00000627@nso-bk.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 29 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:18:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.244 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 948960742 207.224.149.244 (Thu, 27 Jan 2000 02:12:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 02:12:22 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13056 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > I assume the reference is to para. 20: "But Fionwe marched through the >western lands summmoning the remnant of the Noldor, and the Dark-elves that >had not yet looked on Valinor, to join with the thralls released and to >depart from Middle-earth." > And who are these Dark-elves?: See para. 26: "In those days there was a >great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and especially >upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were >fashioned of ancient Beleriand. Thence in many a fleet the survivors of >the Gnomes, and of the companies of the Dark-elves of Doriath and >Ossiriand, set sail into the West and came never again into the lands of >weeping and of war." Ah, yes, the old selective citation argument. One should also look at Section 28, the last sentence: ...But ever as the ages drew on and the Elf-folk faded upon earth, they would set sail at eve from the western shores of the world, as still they do, until now there linger few anywhere of their lonely companies. No exclusions. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86ov2n$1jg_020@news.uswest.net> References: <86o2u5$e7g$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:19:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.244 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 948960808 207.224.149.244 (Thu, 27 Jan 2000 02:13:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 02:13:28 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13055 In article <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: [usual misinformation snipped for brevity] >True. It's just a guess that he would have come out one way or the other. But >it's surprising he excluded them at all.. He excluded them because their story consisted of their self-exclusion from the original invitation. They weren't given a choice the second time around, except to fade or sail with the Eldar. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Message-ID: References: <86o2u5$e7g$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:16:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 948996967 208.170.95.125 (Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:16:07 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:16:07 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13080 In article <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > True. It's just a guess that he would have come out one way or the other. But > it's surprising he excluded them at all.. Would it seem less surprising taken as an analogy to the "Fall", i.e., that the Avari committed an indelible and heritable sin by refusing the summons of the Valar? That may not have been Tolkien's idea, but to some extent they seem parallel; just as the Noldor also "fell", in a sense, by choosing to depart from Aman. DS ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Jan 2000 19:24:51 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000127142451.00137.00000591@nso-bh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13119 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) writes: >In article <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com >(Russ) wrote: > >> True. It's just a guess that he would have come out one way or the >other. But >> it's surprising he excluded them at all.. > > Would it seem less surprising taken as an analogy to the "Fall", i.e., >that the Avari committed an indelible and heritable sin by refusing the >summons of the Valar? > That may not have been Tolkien's idea, but to some extent they seem >parallel; just as the Noldor also "fell", in a sense, by choosing to depart >from Aman. > I don't think they're comparable. First, the Valar invited the Elves to come to Aman, they didn't order them. Iluvatar even told Manwe later that the whole invitation business was a mistake. So it seems a little strange to hold the Valar's mistake against the Avari. That's much different than the Fall of Man which involved the rejection of Eru as One God and Creator in favor of Melkor. On a side note, there appears to be some confusion on my part about what preciseley was the Rebellion of the Noldor. I recall somewhere that the Elves were not prisoners in Aman. They could, if they wished, leave. Obviously the Kinslaying was enough to impose the Ban on the Feanoreans. And Fingolfin's people took part without understanding why they were fighting. But what of Finarfin's people? They didn't take part in the Kinslaying. They simply packed up and left (for a time, that is. They ultimately returned). In any event, what offense did Finarfin's people commit that required receiving the pardon of the Valar? Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86qdp2$1l4_002@news.usenetserver.com> References: <20000127142451.00137.00000591@nso-bh.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:29:14 EST Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:36:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.usit.net!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news4.usenetserver.com.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13122 In article <20000127142451.00137.00000591@nso-bh.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >On a side note, there appears to be some confusion on my part about what >preciseley was the Rebellion of the Noldor. I recall somewhere that the Elves >were not prisoners in Aman. They could, if they wished, leave. Obviously the >Kinslaying was enough to impose the Ban on the Feanoreans. And Fingolfin's >people took part without understanding why they were fighting. But what of >Finarfin's people? They didn't take part in the Kinslaying. They simply >packed up and left (for a time, that is. They ultimately returned). In any >event, what offense did Finarfin's people commit that required receiving the >pardon of the Valar? ALL of the departing Noldor were cursed by the Valar for supporting the Feanorians, not just those who had taken part in the Kinslaying. So Finarfin and his people had to be forgiven or the curse would still have applied to them. The "rebellion" comprised several acts. Feanor began by appearing in Tirion against the will of the Valar. I doubt the Noldor can be held guilty with him, unless their willingness to listen to him and not report him to the Valar for his defiance of their will was held against them. The departure of the people from Aman was not an act of rebellion, but attacking the Teleri without just cause would have been equivalent to attacking the Valar, since the Elves were under the protection of the Valar. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Message-ID: References: <20000127142451.00137.00000591@nso-bh.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 76 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:32:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 949077156 208.170.95.26 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:32:36 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:32:36 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13141 In article <20000127142451.00137.00000591@nso-bh.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article , dsalo@usa.net > (David Salo) writes: > > >In article <20000126204741.00196.00001631@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com > >(Russ) wrote: > > > >> True. It's just a guess that he would have come out one way or the > >other. But > >> it's surprising he excluded them at all.. > > > > Would it seem less surprising taken as an analogy to the "Fall", i.e., > >that the Avari committed an indelible and heritable sin by refusing the > >summons of the Valar? > > That may not have been Tolkien's idea, but to some extent they seem > >parallel; just as the Noldor also "fell", in a sense, by choosing to depart > >from Aman. > > > > I don't think they're comparable. First, the Valar invited the Elves to come > to Aman, they didn't order them. Iluvatar even told Manwe later that the whole > invitation business was a mistake. So it seems a little strange to hold the > Valar's mistake against the Avari. Whether or not it was a "mistake" (and I don't see nearly the certainty that it was that you do), it was still a choice, one of the great choices made early in the history of the world and of the elves. Having made that choice, the elves became bound by it. The Nandor at least had originally had some desire to follow the Valar; the Avari did not. So, even much later, we still see the "sea-longing" arising in the hearts of the Nandor. But the Avari bound themselves to Middle-earth. This being so, it is not necessary to see the closing of Aman to the Avari as a "punishment"; the choice made at Cuivienen simply divided the elves into two kinds, those who sought for something else, and those who were content with what they had and did not wish for change. And if it _were_ a mistake, then it is surely not holding it against the Avari to leave them where they are? Wouldn't it be doubly a mistake for the Valar to "reinvite" the remainder of the Eldar (especially the rebellious Noldor)? But if it were not a mistake, then the Avari can still be judged for having refused the invitation. > That's much different than the Fall of Man which involved the rejection of Eru > as One God and Creator in favor of Melkor. The comparison is that of choices which leave lasting, indelible results. Even in Tolkien's abortive (and probably non-canonical) story of Mankind's fall there are different grades of "falling"; there are some humans who repent, and attempt to escape. But they still suffer the same punishment. This could be seen as even more unjust. And there are repeated chances to "fall"; the kinslaying at Alqualonde on the part of the Noldor, or the rejection of the Valar by the Numenoreans. The idea of the Fall as a literary trope (not the theologically unique instance of the Fall) seems to have attracted Tolkien, and he used it repeatedly. I believe that the Refusal of the Avari is one such instance. > On a side note, there appears to be some confusion on my part about what > preciseley was the Rebellion of the Noldor. I recall somewhere that the Elves > were not prisoners in Aman. They could, if they wished, leave. Obviously the > Kinslaying was enough to impose the Ban on the Feanoreans. And Fingolfin's > people took part without understanding why they were fighting. But what of > Finarfin's people? They didn't take part in the Kinslaying. They simply > packed up and left (for a time, that is. They ultimately returned). In any > event, what offense did Finarfin's people commit that required receiving the > pardon of the Valar? In Unfinished Tales, p. 232, Galadriel (who in this version actually fought against the Feanorians at Alqualonde) "set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwe's leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return." According to this version, sufficient cause for judgment as a rebel was found in merely leaving Aman without Manwe's permission. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Message-ID: References: <86nfh5$30o_010@news.uswest.net> <20000126141013.01374.00000425@nso-fa.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:44:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 949085093 208.170.95.87 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:44:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:44:53 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13144 In article <20000126141013.01374.00000425@nso-fa.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > I agree. Those who were included in the summons cannot be regarded as fixed. > Both the conception of the subdivisions of the Quendi and the details of the > grace of the Valar were very much works in progress. As far as the Nandorin origin of the Silvan elves, that was fixed no later than the late '50s and is still asserted even in the later texts that suggest that there might have been an Avarin element among some of them. Whether the Avari were allowed to go back to Aman or not was not something that Tolkien discusses very much, there being no "test cases" in which an Avar tried to go to Aman and was refused! But in the couple of instances where he comments on this question explicitly, he indicates that Aman was for the Eldar only. If it is more pleasing to suppose that Tolkien changed his mind about this, or would have changed his mind if he'd bothered to think about it, fine, enjoy that idea. I am not one of those people who throws a hissy fit any time someone disagrees with me. DS ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Lines: 95 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Jan 2000 20:40:55 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000128154055.19826.00000113@nso-fp.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13323 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) writes: >> > Would it seem less surprising taken as an analogy to the "Fall", i.e., >> >that the Avari committed an indelible and heritable sin by refusing the >> >summons of the Valar? >> > That may not have been Tolkien's idea, but to some extent they seem >> >parallel; just as the Noldor also "fell", in a sense, by choosing to >depart >> >from Aman. >> > >> >> I don't think they're comparable. First, the Valar invited the Elves to >come >> to Aman, they didn't order them. Iluvatar even told Manwe later that the >whole >> invitation business was a mistake. So it seems a little strange to hold >the >> Valar's mistake against the Avari. > > Whether or not it was a "mistake" (and I don't see nearly the certainty >that it was that you do), it was still a choice, one of the great choices >made early in the history of the world and of the elves. Having made that >choice, the elves became bound by it. The Nandor at least had originally >had some desire to follow the Valar; the Avari did not. So, even much >later, we still see the "sea-longing" arising in the hearts of the Nandor. >But the Avari bound themselves to Middle-earth. This being so, it is not >necessary to see the closing of Aman to the Avari as a "punishment"; the >choice made at Cuivienen simply divided the elves into two kinds, those who >sought for something else, and those who were content with what they had >and did not wish for change. And if it _were_ a mistake, then it is surely >not holding it against the Avari to leave them where they are? Wouldn't it >be doubly a mistake for the Valar to "reinvite" the remainder of the Eldar >(especially the rebellious Noldor)? But if it were not a mistake, then the >Avari can still be judged for having refused the invitation. I see your position with respect to the "choice" issue. In Letters Tolkien specifically called it "irrevocable", after all. > >> That's much different than the Fall of Man which involved the rejection of >Eru >> as One God and Creator in favor of Melkor. > > The comparison is that of choices which leave lasting, indelible >results. Even in Tolkien's abortive (and probably non-canonical) story of >Mankind's fall there are different grades of "falling"; there are some >humans who repent, and attempt to escape. But they still suffer the same >punishment. This could be seen as even more unjust. And there are >repeated chances to "fall"; the kinslaying at Alqualonde on the part of the >Noldor, or the rejection of the Valar by the Numenoreans. The idea of the >Fall as a literary trope (not the theologically unique instance of the >Fall) seems to have attracted Tolkien, and he used it repeatedly. I >believe that the Refusal of the Avari is one such instance. I wouldn't go that far however. While the Avari's may have made an irrevocable choice, I do not see it as a "Fall". Worship of Morgoth, the Kinslaying and the Attack on Aman are simply in a far different category than wishing to remain in Middle-earth. Assuming we're operating within the paradigm of Letters and Amroth and Nomrodel, I see the non-extention of the invitation to the Avai as *consequence* rather than punishment. > >> On a side note, there appears to be some confusion on my part about what >> preciseley was the Rebellion of the Noldor. I recall somewhere that the >Elves >> were not prisoners in Aman. They could, if they wished, leave. Obviously >the >> Kinslaying was enough to impose the Ban on the Feanoreans. And Fingolfin's >> people took part without understanding why they were fighting. But what of >> Finarfin's people? They didn't take part in the Kinslaying. They simply >> packed up and left (for a time, that is. They ultimately returned). In any >> event, what offense did Finarfin's people commit that required receiving >the >> pardon of the Valar? > > In Unfinished Tales, p. 232, Galadriel (who in this version >actually fought against the Feanorians at Alqualonde) "set sail into the >darkness without waiting for Manwe's leave, which would undoubtedly have >been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It >was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor >was shut against her return." According to this version, sufficient cause >for judgment as a rebel was found in merely leaving Aman without Manwe's >permission. I don't have the Silmarillion text with me. But I recall that there was a prior message from Manwe that basically said, "go if you want to but I advise against it." Only after the Kinslaying was the Ban instituted. Michael made a good point that anyone who continued on with the Feanoreans were guilty by association: you can't make deals with devil. Since Finarfin turned around, his people were granted clemancy. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Avari to Aman? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86t1b4$3bc_008@news.uswest.net> References: <86nfh5$30o_010@news.uswest.net> <20000126141013.01374.00000425@nso-fa.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:22:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.168 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 949094198 207.224.147.168 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:16:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:16:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13254 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > Whether the Avari were allowed to go back to Aman or not was not >something that Tolkien discusses very much, there being no "test cases" in >which an Avar tried to go to Aman and was refused! But in the couple of >instances where he comments on this question explicitly, he indicates that >Aman was for the Eldar only. If it is more pleasing to suppose that >Tolkien changed his mind about this, or would have changed his mind if he'd >bothered to think about it, fine, enjoy that idea. I am not one of those >people who throws a hissy fit any time someone disagrees with me. Nonetheless, Tolkien did state that ALL Elves were given the invitation at the end of the First Age, and he dropped all such restrictions as you refer to in his latest writing on the subject. And you ARE one of those who throws a hissy fit -- you are just so good at pretending not to be doing it while doing so (as in this case, where you felt it necessary to cast aspersions on those who disagree with you). -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org...............................................