From: hirgil@aol.comNOSPAM (Hirgil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Jan 2000 12:17:40 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12913 I have a question for the knowledgable folks here. We're probably all familiar with Tolkien's comment that, had LOTR been an allegory to World War II, "the ring would have be seized and used against the Enemy." And in several letters he wrote during the War (mostly to Christopher), he makes essentially the same point--that the allies are "fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring." He sees this as terribly distressing. Now, I have to say that when I first read the "allegory" comment in the foreward, I thought he was referring to The Bomb. But in reading his letters, one discovers that he was making this "fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring" complaint in 1944, when he could not possibly have know of the existence of the atomic bombs. So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's ring" that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And how, do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, so as not to be guilty of this accusation? Hirgil To reply via email, remove "NOSPAM" from the above address. ---- "Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all the lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow and everlasting groan of overburdened stone."--III, 5, 1 ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: 24 Jan 2000 13:00:58 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 32 Message-ID: <86hiea$ou0$2@readme.uio.no> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12898 On 24 Jan 2000 12:17:40 GMT, Hirgil wrote: >I have a question for the knowledgable folks here. > >We're probably all familiar with Tolkien's comment that, had LOTR been an >allegory to World War II, "the ring would have be seized and used against the >Enemy." > >And in several letters he wrote during the War (mostly to Christopher), he >makes essentially the same point--that the allies are "fighting Hitler with >Hitler's ring." He sees this as terribly distressing. > >Now, I have to say that when I first read the "allegory" comment in the >foreward, I thought he was referring to The Bomb. But in reading his letters, >one discovers that he was making this "fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring" >complaint in 1944, when he could not possibly have know of the existence of the >atomic bombs. > >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's ring" >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And how, >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? I doubt it's any single thing. However he also refers to warplanes as "Nazgul beasts" at one point (iirc), and as cjrt was in the RAF it may be that he was referring specifically to aerial warfare. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Summary: a load of bull Keywords: joke humour funny pitiful User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: bonnetti.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <388c4fb3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 24 Jan 2000 13:12:19 GMT X-Trace: 24 Jan 2000 13:12:19 GMT, bonnetti.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 57 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12904 Hirgil wrote: >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's ring" >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And how, >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? Well. This is all rather complicated. Much of what is known of Tolkien's war work has never actually been revealed, and I do so here publically for the first time. It is a popular fact that the Americans used Navaho as a kind of 'code' for radio communications. It's less well known that the UK Government used Anglo-saxon. As one of the United Kingdom's leading experts in this matter, Tolkien was naturally consulted, and helped set up a facility for training the hundreds of people needed. At this point, he had quite a low level of security clearance. In 1942, the Ministry of War faced disaster. A British ship carrying an Anglosaxon speaker had been captured, and their secret revealed. Since German is quite close to Anglosaxon, well. They needed a new language, one they could even talk about interesting new things like Atomic Bombs without the Germans listening in on. Whilst Alan Turing was over in America helping to work on a voice encryption system, this was not going to be a practical proposition for some time, and thus Tolkien, who was also quite good at creating artificial languages was appointed to be in charge. The main language Tolkien developed was what we now know as 'Quenya'. He had already done extensive work on this..., but with MoW funding, he was able to devote his time fully to it. He had a much higher security clearance at this time, and had heard rumours of 'atomic bombs'. By 1943 Quenya was complete, and teaching began. Tolkien had to develop new vocabulary when it was needed, including the above-mentioned 'atomic bomb'. He had a vague idea from the messages he had to translate (he was the most trusted translator, naturally...) that this was a major weapon of mass destruction. In writing his letter, he was letting slip a piece of classified information, probably. Although there are no doubt others who would claim that he meant something else. Today, lots of war records (especially the secret services), are classified, but not just that, written in Quenya. Therefore, in 1954, after the publication of /Lord of the Rings/, Tolkien was pointed at the Official Secrets Act, which he had of course signed, and he agreed not to publish any more details of Quenya. To this day, the secret services have managed to 'persuade' various people with access to Tolkien's books /a Quenya Dictionary/ and /Quenya Grammar/, not to even to mention the existence of them, let alone quote from them, as they are *very* insistent about keeping the records secret. -- Robert Save freedom of speech! Join the EFF! http://www.eff.org/join/ ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:20:47 GMT Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 35 Message-ID: <388c5ee7.1971432@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <388c4fb3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: newsfeed.sas.ab.ca 948724114 2967 198.161.206.2 (24 Jan 2000 14:28:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2000 14:28:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!198.161.206.159 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12900 On 24 Jan 2000 13:12:19 GMT, Robert Brady wrote, in part: >It is a popular fact that the Americans used Navaho as a kind of 'code' for >radio communications. It's less well known that the UK Government used >Anglo-saxon. Ah, yes. I remember that the novel "Cryptonomicon" had Britain using the language of a fictitious place called "Qwghlm", which is sort of like what the Hebrides would be, if it were inhabited by mad Manxmen who spoke Basque. However, Anglo-Saxon is so much closer to Icelandic - and hence to German - than English, somehow I doubt that it would be much of a secret language. >Today, lots of war records (especially the secret services), are classified, >but not just that, written in Quenya. Therefore, in 1954, after the >publication of /Lord of the Rings/, Tolkien was pointed at the Official >Secrets Act, which he had of course signed, and he agreed not to publish >any more details of Quenya. >To this day, the secret services have managed to 'persuade' various people >with access to Tolkien's books /a Quenya Dictionary/ and /Quenya Grammar/, >not to even to mention the existence of them, let alone quote from them, as >they are *very* insistent about keeping the records secret. Well, I was wondering why Christopher Tolkien had specifically excluded the language-related materials from HoME... however, I'm rather sure your missive was intended for our _amusement_. John Savard (teneerf <-) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:26:56 GMT Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 35 Message-ID: <388c5fc4.2192898@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: newsfeed.sas.ab.ca 948724474 3002 198.161.206.2 (24 Jan 2000 14:34:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2000 14:34:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!198.161.206.159 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12901 On 24 Jan 2000 12:17:40 GMT, hirgil@aol.comNOSPAM (Hirgil) wrote, in part: >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's ring" >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And how, >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? I'm tempted to say that he wanted Britain to eschew the use of airplanes, tanks, and guns, and to fight Hitler with swords and on horseback...on the theory that if Britain dumped its modern armaments down a volcano, all of Hitler's modern weaponry would also stop working. I *hope* he was intelligent enough to realize that such a strategy would not work. Thus, I despair to think of just _what_ he could mean. But he could simply have been expresing regret that Britain, naturally, was experiencing unfortunate changes as it geared up for war, without seriously claiming there was an alternative. Or, "Hitler's ring" might not mean technological weaponry, however ugly Tolkien found factories and smokestacks. One of his Letters notes that he disapproved of how some Britons were gleeful at the hardships of civilians in defeated Germany. Thus, he could have meant that British politicians were, in his opinion, following Hitler's lead in using _hatred_ as a tool in motivating their populations. Certainly, there was some of that in America when it came to the Japanese. John Savard (teneerf <-) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Jan 2000 15:12:41 GMT References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000124101241.10856.00000053@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12919 In article <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com>, hirgil@aol.comNOSPAM (Hirgil) writes: >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's >ring" >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And >how, >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? > In the letter where he talks about Hitler's ring, he precfaces that statment by the following: "We knew Hitler was a vulger and ingnorant little cad, in addition to any other defects (or the source of them); but there seem to be many v. and i. l. cads who don;'t speak German, and who given the same chance would show most of th eother Hitlerian characteristics. There was a solomn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory...You can't the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy; but unfortunately Gandalf's wisdom seems long ago to have passed with him into the True West..." (Letter 81) Tolkien appears to be railing against a view that was appearing in England towards the end of the War that Germans were subhuman and this view took its most extreme form in the newspaper article he referred to. The idea of mass extermination of the Germans was respectable enough be printed in a newspaper. Tolkien was referring to that sort of thinking. Were the Allies to use the Nazi ideas and methods (i.e. dehumanization of the "other" and extermination) they would be using "Hitler's Ring" and become the Enemy theselves. Russ ###### Message-ID: <388C8C7B.DED31889@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:31:39 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.149 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 948735140 194.125.145.149 (Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:32:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:32:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12889 Hirgil wrote: > > So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is > "Hitler's ring" that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, > using against him? To my mind the great difference between WWII and earlier wars was that it became more an more reliant on air supremacy as it went on for complete victory, culminating in the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I suspect that the drone of a Flying Bomb struck ferar into many English hearts during the blitz and appeared as Valkyries made flesh. However aerial combat or solitary flying bobms was not the weapon that you infer the author was referring to IMO, nor was it the supplanting of person to person combat on a field of honour [gilding the lily if you ask me...], but rather the impersonal and indiscriminate mass destruction of innocent civilians and children by the Carpet-Bombing of German cities, culminating in that most terrible of atrocities, Dresden. Certainly these terrible firestorms foreshadowed the use and effects of the Atomic Bomb that ended that war, and I suspect Tolkien, like many other people of the day, knew or guessed that the Allies were working on a super-weapon with which to defeat the Axis Powers. FWIW M. ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:35:39 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 42 Message-ID: <86i2fn$fnt$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-48.risperdal.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 948735287 16125 62.136.86.176 (24 Jan 2000 17:34:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2000 17:34:47 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12916 Hirgil wrote in message <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com>... >I have a question for the knowledgable folks here. > >We're probably all familiar with Tolkien's comment that, had LOTR been an >allegory to World War II, "the ring would have be seized and used against the >Enemy." > >And in several letters he wrote during the War (mostly to Christopher), he >makes essentially the same point--that the allies are "fighting Hitler with >Hitler's ring." He sees this as terribly distressing. > >Now, I have to say that when I first read the "allegory" comment in the >foreward, I thought he was referring to The Bomb. But in reading his letters, >one discovers that he was making this "fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring" >complaint in 1944, when he could not possibly have know of the existence of the >atomic bombs. > >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's ring" >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And how, >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? > I think he's referring to the adopting of Hitlers methods to defeat Hitler. Certainly the Nationalistic way in which the Germans were turned into sub-humans by some propaganda - and also maybe, incidents such as the bombing of Dresden. Al ###### Message-ID: <388CF1FC.B11F8AA0@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86i2fn$fnt$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:44:44 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.133 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 948761126 194.125.145.133 (Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:45:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:45:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12891 Alan Graham wrote: > > Hirgil wrote in message <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com>... > >I have a question for the knowledgable folks here. > > > >We're probably all familiar with Tolkien's comment that, had LOTR been an > >allegory to World War II, "the ring would have be seized and used against > the > >Enemy." > > > >And in several letters he wrote during the War (mostly to Christopher), he > >makes essentially the same point--that the allies are "fighting Hitler with > >Hitler's ring." He sees this as terribly distressing. > > > >Now, I have to say that when I first read the "allegory" comment in the > >foreward, I thought he was referring to The Bomb. But in reading his > letters, > >one discovers that he was making this "fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring" > >complaint in 1944, when he could not possibly have know of the existence of > the > >atomic bombs. > > > >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's > ring" > >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And > how, > >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the > war, > >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? > > > > I think he's referring to the adopting of Hitlers methods to defeat Hitler. > Certainly the Nationalistic way in which the Germans were turned into > sub-humans by some propaganda - and also maybe, incidents such as the > bombing of Dresden. > > Al Copycat. M. ###### From: "mg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <20000124101241.10856.00000053@nso-fo.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:17:12 -0600 Lines: 63 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.142.224.67 Message-ID: <388d247a@queeg.apci.net> X-Trace: 24 Jan 2000 22:20:10 -0600, 208.142.224.67 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!pullfeed!queeg.apci.net!208.142.224.67 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12890 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000124101241.10856.00000053@nso-fo.aol.com... > In article <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com>, hirgil@aol.comNOSPAM > (Hirgil) writes: > > >So my question is: What is he talking about? What precisely is "Hitler's > >ring" > >that the allies are, to Tolkien's mind, immorally, using against him? And > >how, > >do you think, would Tolkien have preferred that the Allies prosecute the war, > >so as not to be guilty of this accusation? > > > > In the letter where he talks about Hitler's ring, he precfaces that statment by > the following: > > "We knew Hitler was a vulger and ingnorant little cad, in addition to any other > defects (or the source of them); but there seem to be many v. and i. l. cads > who don;'t speak German, and who given the same chance would show most of th > eother Hitlerian characteristics. There was a solomn article in the local > paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation > as the only proper course after military victory...You can't the Enemy with his > own Ring without turning into an Enemy; but unfortunately Gandalf's wisdom > seems long ago to have passed with him into the True West..." (Letter 81) > > Tolkien appears to be railing against a view that was appearing in England > towards the end of the War that Germans were subhuman and this view took its > most extreme form in the newspaper article he referred to. The idea of mass > extermination of the Germans was respectable enough be printed in a newspaper. > Tolkien was referring to that sort of thinking. Were the Allies to use the > Nazi ideas and methods (i.e. dehumanization of the "other" and extermination) > they would be using "Hitler's Ring" and become the Enemy theselves. > > Russ I would have to agree that this is what he meant. It was more of a fear of what actions the allies could take, than what technology they had in their weapons. If you can believe it, there was some in the British government that actually considered a plan to execute 10,000 German military officers following their eventual surrender. I could find a source, but I think this was mentioned in Churchill's multivolume history of the war. They figured if they stamped out the core of Prussian militarism, they would not have to deal with Germany again. Fortunately, the US would have nothing to do with even discussing this and the idea went away quietly. It sounds like something the "Nameless One" would do, not the good guys. Marc ###### From: Andomar Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:05:05 +0100 Organization: Gadgeteers Lines: 11 Message-ID: <388DF3E1.29B6F960@brotherrobot.org> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <20000124101241.10856.00000053@nso-fo.aol.com> <388d247a@queeg.apci.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-879.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!casema.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12967 > weapons. If you can believe it, there was some in the British government > that actually considered a plan to execute 10,000 German military officers > following their eventual surrender. I could find a source, but I think this Sometimes extremeties come along... I can imagine if you just lost your husband, brother, and friends in the war to Germany, you may end up with some pretty gruesome ideas. In the heat of the moment I would say that is not evil in itself. But was that viewpoint ever seriously considered by the highest level of the government? ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <388c5fc4.2192898@news.ecn.ab.ca> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <76pj4.1030$2C1.44168@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:04:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 948837891 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:04:51 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:04:51 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12989 > But he could simply have been expresing regret that Britain, > naturally, was experiencing unfortunate changes as it geared up for > war, without seriously claiming there was an alternative. There was NO choice but war once Hitler ascended to power. Of course, only hindsight provides the clarity to see that. > Or, "Hitler's ring" might not mean technological weaponry, however > ugly Tolkien found factories and smokestacks. One of his Letters notes > that he disapproved of how some Britons were gleeful at the hardships > of civilians in defeated Germany. Thus, he could have meant that > British politicians were, in his opinion, following Hitler's lead in > using _hatred_ as a tool in motivating their populations. Excellent idea. It seems quite likely to me that "Hitler's Ring" would mean war in general and all that goes with it (including hatred of the enemy) Remember, in LOTR Frodo is saved only because he had pity on the enemy (Gollum). That part of the story seems to play too heavily to be unimportant to the overall theme. > Certainly, there was some of that in America when it came to the > Japanese. The Pacific war was a bloody and disgusting affair in which hatred led to atrocities by both sides. Gorthaur ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:09:32 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.04 X-Server-Date: 25 Jan 2000 22:08:38 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13000 Said hirgil@aol.comNOSPAM (Hirgil) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I have a question for the knowledgable folks here. > >We're probably all familiar with Tolkien's comment that, had LOTR been an >allegory to World War II, "the ring would have be seized and used against the >Enemy." > >And in several letters he wrote during the War (mostly to Christopher), he >makes essentially the same point--that the allies are "fighting Hitler with >Hitler's ring." He sees this as terribly distressing. > >Now, I have to say that when I first read the "allegory" comment in the >foreward, I thought he was referring to The Bomb. But in reading his letters, >one discovers that he was making this "fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring" >complaint in 1944, when he could not possibly have know of the existence of the >atomic bombs. "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring" seems to me to mean using Hitler's methods against Hitler. As for what Tolkien meant, specifically, I don't know. Here are my guesses. Immediately, the Allies' saturation bombing of Dresden comes to mind. The Allies were just as destructive of the enemy as were the Germans and Japanese. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrifying, but I honestly don't know whether there was any greater destruction and loss of life than at Dresden. But I think there is a very real difference, in that the Allies were not as destructive to their own people and to occupied peoples as the Germans were to theirs. Both the Americans and the Germans set up concentration camps for native minorities. But the Germans killed the German Jews in their concentration camps. The worst that happened to most Americans of Japanese extraction is some economic loss -- still not excusable, but a whole lot less severe. On the other hand, the war took over the whole economy and public life of every nation that was involved. The US was perhaps the least affected, but e.g. Britain and Italy had great regimentation and virtual dictatorships, though not quite as brutal as Germany's. It's as though Gondor and Eriador had been organized like Mordor for the war effort. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:44:09 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <388c5fc4.2192898@news.ecn.ab.ca> <76pj4.1030$2C1.44168@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.04 X-Server-Date: 25 Jan 2000 22:43:15 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:12997 Said me@here.net (Gorthaur) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >There was NO choice but war once Hitler ascended to power. Of course, only >hindsight provides the clarity to see that. No, hindsight provides the clarity to see that war could have been prevented. Hitler's generals were ready to overthrow him several times, and would have done so if the Western democracies had stood up to him. But the West gave in, on the militarization of the Rhineland, on the Anschluss with Austria, and above all on the rape of Czechoslovakia. So the people saw Hitler as a winner, restoring Germany's glory, and the generals knew that the people would not tolerate any overthrow. By the time public opinion changed, the war had already started and it was too late. I have read (in /The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich/, I believe) that the Czechoslovak army alone could have given Hitler a run for his money at the time of Munich had Benes not been pressured by Britain and France to cave in. Czechoslovakia had vast fortifications in the Sudetenland, and its army was at the time more combat-ready than Germany's -- and Hitler and his generals knew that. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.88.167 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 948903552 212.151.88.167 (Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:19:12 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:19:12 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-88-167.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:22:02 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13027 Stan Brown hath written: [snip] > >On the other hand, the war took over the whole economy and public >life of every nation that was involved. The US was perhaps the >least affected, but e.g. Britain and Italy had great >regimentation and virtual dictatorships, though not quite as >brutal as Germany's. It's as though Gondor and Eriador had been >organized like Mordor for the war effort. "Not quite as brutal" is right if you are talking about Britain. Conscientious objectors were sent to work on farms instead of being sent to concentration camps. Anybody had a perfect right to criticize the government in speech or print, vilify it, even say that they were as bad as the Nazis. Foreign nationals were interned, but no one was persecuted just because of their orgins or supposed "race". I think comparing Britain during the war with the fascist dictatorship in Italy, let alone Mordor, is going rather over the top. Öjevind ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:29:32 -0500 Organization: Attercop & Tomnoddy, Ltd. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: flUw5J1meTSPQpuChjqaJo0i5uTGx6CBvYqUJjj5E34= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2000 17:46:46 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13003 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > "Not quite as brutal" is right if you are talking about Britain. > Conscientious objectors were sent to work on farms instead of being sent to > concentration camps. Unlike the US, in which the enlightened liberal Democrats under FDR jailed all Japanese-Americans in internment camps after essentially taking all of their property (for which they were never compensated AFAIK). FDR was a criminal who should have been sent to jail. Of course he never would have been, since the American Left made him a hero, bereft as they were of any morals or decency. Even today they defend the most appalling criminal action the US government has ever taken against its own people. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: fjake@aol.com (F Jake) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Jan 2000 03:56:05 GMT References: <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000126225605.16565.00000121@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13060 Regarding Japanese/American internment & land grab cir 1941 >>the American Left made >>him a hero, bereft as they were of any morals or decency. Even >>today they defend the most appalling criminal action the US >>government has ever taken against its own people. Careful! You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone on the "Right" that made any great amount of protest at the time. This incident is an AMERICAN tragedy across all party lines. A right wing President would have done the same due to public pressure & histeria. Jake ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:56:11 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.ab X-Server-Date: 27 Jan 2000 06:55:13 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.premier1.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13078 Said ojevind.lang@swipnet.se (Öjevind Lång) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"Not quite as brutal" is right if you are talking about Britain. >[...] I think comparing Britain during the war >with the fascist dictatorship in Italy, let alone Mordor, is going rather >over the top. I meant no disrespect. I was trying to avoid categorical statements but I did not mean to imply that Britain was nearly as brutal internally as Nazi Germany. I agree with you that that is over the top. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: 27 Jan 2000 18:57:52 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <388c5fc4.2192898@news Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!204.121.3.5!newshost.lanl.gov!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13091 In a previous article, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) says: >Said me@here.net (Gorthaur) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>There was NO choice but war once Hitler ascended to power. Of course, only >>hindsight provides the clarity to see that. > >No, hindsight provides the clarity to see that war could have >been prevented. > >Hitler's generals were ready to overthrow him several times, and >would have done so if the Western democracies had stood up to >him. But the West gave in, on the militarization of the Was this possibly more of the influence of Nevil Chamberlin? -- ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:44:51 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b3.21 X-Server-Date: 27 Jan 2000 23:43:49 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13146 [This followup was also e-mailed to the cited author.] Said chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >In a previous article, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) says: >>Hitler's generals were ready to overthrow him several times, and >>would have done so if the Western democracies had stood up to >>him. But the West gave in, on the militarization of the > >Was this possibly more of the influence of Nevil Chamberlin? Chamberlain has taken the rap, and that's partly justified, because he was the leader of the (then) strongest power in Europe but bent over backwards to throw Czechoslovakia to Hitler. But it is only fair to say that *overwhelming* public opinion supported Chamberlain's stance of appeasement, both before and after Munich. The great majority of British subjects did not want a war (who does?) and were not willing to commit troops even for a preventive action. There was a similar temperament in France. If you're interested in the period, check out /While England Slept/ and /Step by Step/, both by Winston Churchill. I'm 99% certain they're out of print, but your library should be able to get them for you. They are highly readable series of his essays from the 1920s, pointing out again and again that Hitlerine Germany was a deadly danger to Britain, and showing how both HM Government and the British people relentlessly closed their eyes to the warning signs and retreated into wishful thinking. The US was guilty of the same thing, but perhaps with slightly better excuse, being separated by an ocean from the events. Still, the amount of refusal to recognize plain facts -- like the anti-Jewish measures -- is striking. /The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich/ is well worth reading. It was written by a journalist, not a historian, so even though it is a *very* thick book it moves very fast. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:49:14 -0500 Organization: Attercop & Tomnoddy, Ltd. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <38911FB8.28CF7B35@erols.com> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: jvTjoiZVut0/wQMo03md5qJEkPInq03ZrnepQ8jXAF4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2000 05:16:58 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13087 Stan Brown wrote: > both HM Government and the British > people relentlessly closed their eyes to the warning signs and > retreated into wishful thinking. > > The US was guilty of the same thing, but perhaps with slightly better > excuse, being separated by an ocean from the events. Still, the > amount of refusal to recognize plain facts -- like the anti-Jewish > measures -- is striking. Particularly when you take into account that the Jewish leadership in America shared in this attitude. In their defense, the assertions were pretty unbelievable. It's still hard to believe, which is why we should be careful never to forget that it happened. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <388c5fc4.2192898@news.ecn.ab.ca> <76pj4.1030$2C1.44168@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 70 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:10:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949061425 24.9.194.107 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:10:25 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:10:25 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13125 At the risk of going way off topic: "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.12f7f141b67662bd98aa42@news.mindspring.com... > Said me@here.net (Gorthaur) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >There was NO choice but war once Hitler ascended to power. Of course, only > >hindsight provides the clarity to see that. > > No, hindsight provides the clarity to see that war could have > been prevented. Impossible once Hitler was in power. Read "Mein Kampf" and you'll see why. Hitler wanted war. It just came sooner than he planned. The only way the war could have been prevented was: 1. Give in to all Hitler's demands then ('39) and later when he wanted Russia (about '44 was the original plan) 2. Stop giving in and fight him...oh, that's war. So it was give in or fight. If your arguing that surrender to the Nazis was an option then OK, I'll concede that point, but only with the caveat that it meant giving in to all Hitler's territorial demands. > Hitler's generals were ready to overthrow him several times, and > would have done so if the Western democracies had stood up to > him. After the re-militarization of the Rhineland Hitler was unassailable except by assassination. It would take many years before the Generals would be capable of going against Prussian tradition and recent military success and be able to take that step. >But the West gave in, on the militarization of the > Rhineland, on the Anschluss with Austria, and above all on the > rape of Czechoslovakia. So the people saw Hitler as a winner, > restoring Germany's glory, and the generals knew that the people > would not tolerate any overthrow. By the time public opinion > changed, the war had already started and it was too late. Hitler was supported by the German people until very very late in the war. The best chance for stopping Hitler was the Rhineland episode. The Nazi's barely had an army and the actual re-militarization was accomplished with police and other non-regular units. Meanwhile the French army (by far the largest in Europe) sat on its ass and played bouls. > I have read (in /The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich/, I > believe) that the Czechoslovak army alone could have given Hitler > a run for his money at the time of Munich had Benes not been > pressured by Britain and France to cave in. Czechoslovakia had > vast fortifications in the Sudetenland, and its army was at the > time more combat-ready than Germany's -- and Hitler and his > generals knew that. Wm. Shirer's work is good but he was a reporter, not a historian. It is true that the Czech's could have given the Nazis a run for their money. They had an excellent military-industrial complex as well as highly defendable borders (The Sudetenland is almost entirely mountainous). However, this scenario (while your right it was one of the best chances to beat Hitler) requires that France and the U.K. jump in and they were patently unwilling to do so at that time. We now return to our originally scheduled discussion Gorthaur PS: For a much better general history of the war, read Weingberg's "A World at Arms" ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:14:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949061689 24.9.194.107 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:14:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:14:49 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13127 > The Allies were just as destructive of the enemy as were the > Germans and Japanese. Absolutely not. The Allies did not systematically decimate entire populations via execution. (Jews, gypsies, mental patients, Russians of any type although Commissars were favorite) > Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrifying, but > I honestly don't know whether there was any greater destruction > and loss of life than at Dresden. Don't forget the firestorms in Japan. They were much worse than Dresden because of the wood-paper nature of Japanese homes. > But I think there is a very real difference, in that the Allies > were not as destructive to their own people and to occupied > peoples as the Germans were to theirs. Both the Americans and the > Germans set up concentration camps for native minorities. But the > Germans killed the German Jews in their concentration camps. The > worst that happened to most Americans of Japanese extraction is > some economic loss -- still not excusable, but a whole lot less > severe. Don't for a minute think there wasn't more hardship and death than economic loss. However, as noted above, we didn't systematically exterminate anyone. > On the other hand, the war took over the whole economy and public > life of every nation that was involved. The US was perhaps the > least affected, but e.g. Britain and Italy had great > regimentation and virtual dictatorships, though not quite as > brutal as Germany's. It's as though Gondor and Eriador had been > organized like Mordor for the war effort. F.D.R. was as close to a dictator as this country has ever had, although he was far far from Hitler or Stalin. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:18:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949061913 24.9.194.107 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:18:33 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:18:33 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.114.4.11!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13129 > Unlike the US, in which the enlightened liberal Democrats under FDR > jailed all Japanese-Americans in internment camps after essentially > taking all of their property (for which they were never compensated > AFAIK). FDR was a criminal who should have been sent to jail. Of > course he never would have been, since the American Left made > him a hero, bereft as they were of any morals or decency. Even > today they defend the most appalling criminal action the US > government has ever taken against its own people. What a crock. The Republican controlled Supreme Court legitimized F.D.R.'s actions related to Japanese-Americans. Also, internees were compensated (or their descendants). I think this happened in the 1980s. (Late but better late than never) And if you want "criminal" action, how about Abe Lincoln (a Republican) suspending the right of habeus corpus and the civil courts? ACLU members still have nightmares about that and it was over 130 years ago. And FYI, I'm a Republican. I'm also a history teacher. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:21:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949062095 24.9.194.107 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:21:35 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:21:35 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13128 > Chamberlain has taken the rap, and that's partly justified, because > he was the leader of the (then) strongest power in Europe but bent > over backwards to throw Czechoslovakia to Hitler. In regards to land power, France was vastly more powerful, as was the USSR. Britain had the economic power and the Navy. > /The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich/ is well worth reading. It was > written by a journalist, not a historian, so even though it is a > *very* thick book it moves very fast. There is a shortened version that used to be around. Much more manageable. Just remember what you said, Shirer was a journalist, not an historian. There are much better works. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> <38911FB8.28CF7B35@erols.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:22:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949062171 24.9.194.107 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:22:51 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 04:22:51 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13130 Once the US was in the war, the issue of what to do about the Jews came up repeatedly. The conclusion reached was that the best thing to do was to win the war as rapidly as possible, also to beat Germany first (although there were other reasons for that) Gorthaur ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Jan 2000 15:12:09 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000128101209.19406.00000021@nso-bj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13118 In article , "Gorthaur" writes: >Impossible once Hitler was in power. Read "Mein Kampf" and you'll see why. >Hitler wanted war. It just came sooner than he planned. To give a second to this idea, I am currently reading "Freedom from Fear" by David M. Kennedy, the Oxford History of the United States volume on the Depression and WWII. In it he stated that Hitler was actually upset at the appeasemnt in Munich, because he was spoiling for a war. He believed war was the _only_ way to correct Versailles, (IMHO, in part because "correcting Versailles" neccessarily involved defeating & humiliating the victors, not just repairing economic & territorial losses. End of OT comment from me. :-) PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Jan 2000 15:12:14 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000128101214.19406.00000022@nso-bj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13117 In article , "Gorthaur" writes: >F.D.R. was as close to a dictator as this country has ever had, although he >was far far from Hitler or Stalin. > > Not really, he was just the craftiest polititian. Most of the New Deal didn't work or didn't go through the way he wanted it to. His own party was much more conservative than he was. (The southern wing being the heart and soul of the Democratic power base until at least the 1936 elections.) FDR was also constrained by many Neutrality laws up until Pearl Harbor, when we ceased to be neutral in law. Much of what he did, skirted around the law to help Britain before that, but nonetheless, he was always treading lightly. After war was declared, Being CinC allowed him more leeway, but an understandable amount given the circumstances. "As close to a dictator as this country has ever had." Yes, but that is still way far away from being a dictator at all. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:01:37 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> <38911FB8.28CF7B35@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.aa X-Server-Date: 28 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!bignews.mediaways.net!f.de.uu.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13139 Said jsolinas@erols.com (Flame of the West) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: >> The US was guilty of the same thing, but perhaps with slightly better >> excuse, being separated by an ocean from the events. Still, the >> amount of refusal to recognize plain facts -- like the anti-Jewish >> measures -- is striking. > >Particularly when you take into account that the Jewish leadership >in America shared in this attitude. In their defense, the assertions >were pretty unbelievable. It's still hard to believe, which is why >we should be careful never to forget that it happened. And I don't believe it. I was at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. One of the exhibits was a letter from the Secretary of War to a federation of American Jews. They had asked if American planes could bomb one particular death camp, which was literally only a couple of miles from a military target already being bombed regularly. This would have killed all the Jews already there, but prevented the Nazis from shipping any more there for extermination, so it would save lives overall. The U.S. government refused. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:05:28 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.aa X-Server-Date: 28 Jan 2000 17:04:24 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13136 Said me@here.net (Gorthaur) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> The Allies were just as destructive of the enemy as were the >> Germans and Japanese. > >Absolutely not. The Allies did not systematically decimate entire >populations via execution. (Jews, gypsies, mental patients, Russians of any >type although Commissars were favorite) Perhaps you're trying to argue against something I didn't say (and don't believe), that the Allies were morally as culpable as the Axis. As I say, I don't believe that. But in conducting military operations, the Allies were just as ruthless and destructive as the Axis, and possibly more so. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <86sjnb$28o_012@news.uswest.net> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 53 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:30:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.244 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 949080249 207.224.147.244 (Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:24:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:24:09 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13106 In article , "Gorthaur" wrote: >> Unlike the US, in which the enlightened liberal Democrats under FDR >> jailed all Japanese-Americans in internment camps after essentially >> taking all of their property (for which they were never compensated >> AFAIK). FDR was a criminal who should have been sent to jail. Of >> course he never would have been, since the American Left made >> him a hero, bereft as they were of any morals or decency. Even >> today they defend the most appalling criminal action the US >> government has ever taken against its own people. > >What a crock. The Republican controlled Supreme Court legitimized F.D.R.'s >actions related to Japanese-Americans. Also, internees were compensated (or >their descendants). I think this happened in the 1980s. (Late but better >late than never) The action was ruled legal because of the war but that hardly legitimizes his actions given that the government soon afterward began to alter its position. The internments were criticized as far back as World War II, and the first efforts at compensation occurred in 1948. And the Supreme Court did not unanimously uphold the internment. Some students put together a pretty good paper on this subject at: http://www.ecnet.net/users/gemedia3/Japanese/Japanese.html They include references and hyperlinks. George Takei (of STAR TREK fame) was one of the internees: http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/DB/issues/97/10.31/news.internment.html Information on at least one of the dissenting justices can be found at: http://detnews.com/1996/menu/stories/60746.htm A chronology of events related to the internments and eventual restitution is provided at: http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us/janm/nrc/internch.html >And if you want "criminal" action, how about Abe Lincoln (a Republican) >suspending the right of habeus corpus and the civil courts? ACLU members >still have nightmares about that and it was over 130 years ago. > >And FYI, I'm a Republican. I'm also a history teacher. You're also being a bit glib about what happened. It only took a few minutes to find some Web references on the subject. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// LOTR Movie News: http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ //\\ 1500+ Xena Links: http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:54:15 -0500 Organization: Attercop & Tomnoddy, Ltd. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3892807A.84D14D81@erols.com> References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: mjoLFO1QcA1HrH8iR9oKbDTyWNNNKKrzwAlPoJq2tMo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2000 06:14:43 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13405 Gorthaur wrote: > What a crock. The Republican controlled Supreme Court legitimized F.D.R.'s > actions related to Japanese-Americans. The Supreme Court had been intimidated by FDR for years by that time. No way were they going to stand up to him as CinC. > Also, internees were compensated (or > their descendants). I think this happened in the 1980s. (Late but better > late than never) Very very late. Kind of like Clinton apologizing for slavery. > And if you want "criminal" action, how about Abe Lincoln (a Republican) > suspending the right of habeus corpus and the civil courts? Do you really think this is comparable to interning all Japanese-Americans because of their ancestry? I suppose that depends on how these powers were used. Were they used against Confederate sympathizers, or against anyone with a Southern accent? The latter would be closer to what FDR did. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 30 Jan 2000 08:03:05 GMT References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13339 In article <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" writes: >I think comparing Britain during the war >with the fascist dictatorship in Italy, let alone Mordor, is going rather >over the top. Comparing fascist Italy with wartime Britain is fair enough. They are both modern 20th century technologically advanced human governments, which are for the most part corrupted by evil at the highest levels of power. I would personally say that it is Italy that suffers by comparison, since the greater centralization nof its power gave more free reign to the evil forces within it, but I do not think of them as apples and oranges. Of course, my distaste for fascist Italy (as compared to wartime Britain) may well be influenced by a history written by the victors after a historically unprecedented total victory in a World War.. There were of course numerous differences between the two governments. But I think that it is Nazi Germany that comes closest to a level of "Mordor"l. That is still far closer to our own governments than it is to "Mordor". It is delusional, I think, to believe that there is any enormous difference between our own co-nationals, and the Axis peoples who were jointly responsible for the horrors that their nations inflicted. The human capacity for evil is great, and that does not ONLY apply to the folks who happened to be the losers in the Total Victory that established the present world order. Do you suppose that the Japanese internees in the American Internment camps would have made out so well had the United States suffered any serious degree of deprivation during the War? Suppose that a significant portion of the U.S. population had been starving, or homeless, or terrorized by firebombings that whiped out thousands at a time. Suppose we knew that we were losing the war, and felt powerless and afraid in the face of repreated bombings. Who would we lash out at and take revenge on? How do you think many would feel about the government sending significant supplies of food to thousands of "Japs" in internment camps, while patriotic citizens were starving, and loyal lads were dying. You can bet that, under such circumstances, that, at the very least, the government would reduce the food supply for internees to a bare-minimum subsistence level. This level would be further reduced by theft and corruption, as camp officers, guards, and workers stole supplies to help out desperate family and friends. Internal camp politics would then ensure that this "subsistence level" of food (actually now less than that) was not evenly distributed. Some prisoners would find ways of ensuring that they had more than enough, at the cost of others starving. Camp discipline would become increasingly brutal, as prisonners became increasingly desperate and difficult to control. Things would go from bad to worse in the final months of the war, as the Enemy pursued their goal of "Unconditional Surrender" by over-running the country, while refusing to discuss armistice terms with the government. Supply lines to the camps would probably break down. It is very likely that at such a time, some camp commander would use mass murder to solve his worsening camp problems, either as a desperate act of retaliation against an enemy he was powerless to harm, or to improve the chances of survival for the few he chose to spare. The deplorable conditions of the camps, as they were overrun by Japanese and German armies, would horrify the consciences of all Good People everywhere. Documentary films would be made, and used as propaganda films to justify the cause of the victors. The atrocities committed by the victors would, under such circumstances, not be discussed, and some might remain secret forever. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:17:14 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.81.90 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949263251 212.151.81.90 (Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:14:11 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:14:11 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13347 Nystulc hath written: > >There were of course numerous differences between the two governments. But I >think that it is Nazi Germany that comes closest to a level of "Mordor"l. That >is still far closer to our own governments than it is to "Mordor". It is >delusional, I think, to believe that there is any enormous difference between >our own co-nationals, and the Axis peoples who were jointly responsible for the >horrors that their nations inflicted. So you say that there was basically no moral difference between the western democracies and the Nazis? Nazi Germany organized the Holocaust, not only of Jews but also of millions of Gipsies, as well as the extermination of millions of Slavs (a more systematic killing off of the Poles, the Czechs and the Russians, with the exception of "Aryan" elements, was planned for further on). And there was the extermination of homosexuals and mentally retarded people. They also planned to kill off all cripples and people with other serious physical defects. Öjevind Lång ###### From: Mia Kalogjera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:48:31 -0800 Organization: HiNet Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar4-p38-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 949268683 15036 195.29.237.166 (30 Jan 2000 21:44:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2000 21:44:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13195 Öjevind Lång wrote: > So you say that there was basically no moral difference between the western > democracies and the Nazis? Nazi Germany organized the Holocaust, not only of > Jews but also of millions of Gipsies, as well as the extermination of > millions of Slavs Except the Slavs who decided to join them, namely the Independent State of Croatia (or "eNDeHazija") under Ante Pavelic. In the last ten years the Croatian government displayed sympathy for the NDH and the people who ran it, trying to show their crimes as lesser than they were, etc. (remember Tudman had to edit his books to omit antisemitic parts, so to avoid a threatening scandal?) Thank Eru we got rid of them. -- [Die andere Seite] http://matrix.crosswinds.net/~jereeza [ TheOneRing.net ] http://www.theonering.net E-mail: jereeza(at)yahoo.com or mia(at)theonering.net ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 34 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:55:42 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.54.153 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949326758 212.151.54.153 (Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:52:38 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:52:38 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13355 Mia Kalogjera hath written: >Öjevind Lång wrote: > >> So you say that there was basically no moral difference between the western >> democracies and the Nazis? Nazi Germany organized the Holocaust, not only of >> Jews but also of millions of Gipsies, as well as the extermination of >> millions of Slavs > >Except the Slavs who decided to join them, namely the Independent State of >Croatia (or "eNDeHazija") under Ante Pavelic. In the last ten years the Croatian >government displayed sympathy for the NDH and the people who ran it, trying to >show their crimes as lesser than they were, etc. (remember Tudman had to edit >his books to omit antisemitic parts, so to avoid a threatening scandal?) >Thank Eru we got rid of them. You are right there. Still, the fact remains that the Nazis had very elaborate plans according to which all Poles and Czechs were to be exterminated except for those elements that were deemed worhty of assimilation as "Aryans". Furthermore, they intended to kill off all Russians with any trace of education, depart many of the rest beyond the Ural Mountains and keep some as illiterature slave workers on huge German-owned estates. They never had the opportunity to implement those plans because they lost the war. Öjevind ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000128101209.19406.00000021@nso-bj.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <2Uzl4.8660$2C1.192421@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 11:58:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949406334 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 03:58:54 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 03:58:54 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13352 "PaulB" wrote in message news:20000128101209.19406.00000021@nso-bj.aol.com... > In article , "Gorthaur" > writes: > > >Impossible once Hitler was in power. Read "Mein Kampf" and you'll see why. > >Hitler wanted war. It just came sooner than he planned. > > To give a second to this idea, I am currently reading "Freedom from Fear" by > David M. Kennedy, the Oxford History of the United States volume on the > Depression and WWII. In it he stated that Hitler was actually upset at the > appeasemnt in Munich, because he was spoiling for a war. He believed war was > the _only_ way to correct Versailles, (IMHO, in part because "correcting > Versailles" neccessarily involved defeating & humiliating the victors, not just > repairing economic & territorial losses. Even more than this, Naziism itself was based on "struggle" and "conflict". The party and Hitler needed a war to accomplish not only his external goals but also to keep the movement dynamic. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> <86sjnb$28o_012@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:00:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949406418 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:00:18 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:00:18 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13360 > The action was ruled legal because of the war but that hardly legitimizes his > actions given that the government soon afterward began to alter its position. > The internments were criticized as far back as World War II, and the first > efforts at compensation occurred in 1948. And the Supreme Court did not > unanimously uphold the internment. The Supreme Court doesn't have to be unanimous. Just a majority. And they had one. ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <388F2EF9.29C8BC46@erols.com> <3892807A.84D14D81@erols.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:04:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949406696 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:04:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:04:56 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13358 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3892807A.84D14D81@erols.com... > Gorthaur wrote: > > > What a crock. The Republican controlled Supreme Court legitimized F.D.R.'s > > actions related to Japanese-Americans. > > The Supreme Court had been intimidated by FDR for years by that time. > No way were they going to stand up to him as CinC. *sigh* FDR tried to bully the court back during the 2nd New Deal and he failed horribly. The rest of the government and the people saw his court packing scheme for what it was, an attempt at bypassing the Court. It didn't work. The New Deal ended. The Court survived that threat. The Court legitimized the internments because the military demanded it (not FDR) and because the American people, in their infinite wisdom, supported it. > > Also, internees were compensated (or > > their descendants). I think this happened in the 1980s. (Late but better > > late than never) > > Very very late. Kind of like Clinton apologizing for slavery. Clinton is a f*%&ing idiot. > > And if you want "criminal" action, how about Abe Lincoln (a Republican) > > suspending the right of habeus corpus and the civil courts? > > Do you really think this is comparable to interning all Japanese-Americans > because of their ancestry? I suppose that depends on how these > powers were used. Were they used against Confederate sympathizers, > or against anyone with a Southern accent? The latter would be closer > to what FDR did. If you know what habeus corpus is, why are you even asking this question? Of course it's comparable, its the exact same thing. It was used against a 'race' of people in the 1940s and against 'enemies of the state' in the 1860s. Both acts were offensive to the very nature of our Constitution. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 106 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:07:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949406861 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:07:41 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:07:41 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13348 Another Revisionist rears his/her head... "Nystulc" wrote in message news:20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com... > In article <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" > writes: > > >I think comparing Britain during the war > >with the fascist dictatorship in Italy, let alone Mordor, is going rather > >over the top. > > Comparing fascist Italy with wartime Britain is fair enough. They are both > modern 20th century technologically advanced human governments, which are for > the most part corrupted by evil at the highest levels of power. I would > personally say that it is Italy that suffers by comparison, since the greater > centralization nof its power gave more free reign to the evil forces within it, > but I do not think of them as apples and oranges. Of course, my distaste for > fascist Italy (as compared to wartime Britain) may well be influenced by a > history written by the victors after a historically unprecedented total victory > in a World War.. > > There were of course numerous differences between the two governments. But I > think that it is Nazi Germany that comes closest to a level of "Mordor"l. That > is still far closer to our own governments than it is to "Mordor". It is > delusional, I think, to believe that there is any enormous difference between > our own co-nationals, and the Axis peoples who were jointly responsible for the > horrors that their nations inflicted. The human capacity for evil is great, > and that does not ONLY apply to the folks who happened to be the losers in the > Total Victory that established the present world order. > > Do you suppose that the Japanese internees in the American Internment camps > would have made out so well had the United States suffered any serious degree > of deprivation during the War? Suppose that a significant portion of the U.S. > population had been starving, or homeless, or terrorized by firebombings that > whiped out thousands at a time. Suppose we knew that we were losing the war, > and felt powerless and afraid in the face of repreated bombings. Who would we > lash out at and take revenge on? How do you think many would feel about the > government sending significant supplies of food to thousands of "Japs" in > internment camps, while patriotic citizens were starving, and loyal lads were > dying. You can bet that, under such circumstances, that, at the very least, > the government would reduce the food supply for internees to a bare-minimum > subsistence level. This level would be further reduced by theft and > corruption, as camp officers, guards, and workers stole supplies to help out > desperate family and friends. Internal camp politics would then ensure that > this "subsistence level" of food (actually now less than that) was not evenly > distributed. Some prisoners would find ways of ensuring that they had more > than enough, at the cost of others starving. Camp discipline would become > increasingly brutal, as prisonners became increasingly desperate and difficult > to control. > > Things would go from bad to worse in the final months of the war, as the Enemy > pursued their goal of "Unconditional Surrender" by over-running the country, > while refusing to discuss armistice terms with the government. Supply lines to > the camps would probably break down. It is very likely that at such a time, > some camp commander would use mass murder to solve his worsening camp problems, > either as a desperate act of retaliation against an enemy he was powerless to > harm, or to improve the chances of survival for the few he chose to spare. > > The deplorable conditions of the camps, as they were overrun by Japanese and > German armies, would horrify the consciences of all Good People everywhere. > Documentary films would be made, and used as propaganda films to justify the > cause of the victors. The atrocities committed by the victors would, under > such circumstances, not be discussed, and some might remain secret forever. > > -- John Whelan > ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:09:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949406989 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:09:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:09:49 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13346 > Perhaps you're trying to argue against something I didn't say (and > don't believe), that the Allies were morally as culpable as the Axis. > As I say, I don't believe that. But in conducting military > operations, the Allies were just as ruthless and destructive as the > Axis, and possibly more so. Of course we were. Who invented "total war" after all? An American named Wm. T. Sherman in the 1860s. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000128101214.19406.00000022@nso-bj.aol.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:12:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949407175 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:12:55 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:12:55 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13344 > Not really, he was just the craftiest polititian. Most of the New Deal didn't > work or didn't go through the way he wanted it to. I assume that when you say this you are aware that during the First New Deal FDR's legislation was being passed in days, sometimes hours! In fact, the Emergency Banking Act didn't even get a reading in Congress, they passed it too fast. >His own party was much more > conservative than he was. (The southern wing being the heart and soul of the > Democratic power base until at least the 1936 elections.) FDR was also > constrained by many Neutrality laws up until Pearl Harbor, when we ceased to be > neutral in law. Much of what he did, skirted around the law to help Britain > before that, but nonetheless, he was always treading lightly. FDR was more for-sighted than the Republican Congress of the time. And we're lucky he was. > After war was declared, Being CinC allowed him more leeway, but an > understandable amount given the circumstances. > > "As close to a dictator as this country has ever had." Yes, but that is still > way far away from being a dictator at all. :-) Yup, that's why I put "far far" in my original post. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000124071740.00339.00000003@ng-ch1.aol.com> <86q4fg$474$1@news.asu.edu> <38911FB8.28CF7B35@erols.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:18:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949407509 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:18:29 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 04:18:29 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13357 > I was at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. One of the exhibits was > a letter from the Secretary of War to a federation of American Jews. > They had asked if American planes could bomb one particular death > camp, which was literally only a couple of miles from a military > target already being bombed regularly. This would have killed all the > Jews already there, but prevented the Nazis from shipping any more > there for extermination, so it would save lives overall. > > The U.S. government refused. And then there was the prewar episode with the Jews being kicked out of Germany and every Western nation refusing them admittance. The issue of hitting the camps is a catch 22. -Bomb a camp, kill some Nazis and lots of Jews -Nazis move the Jews to other camps and build new ones -Bomd a camp, kill some Nazis and lots of Jews or, fight like hell to end the war in Europe, meanwhile, the Nazis go on killing. Not an easy choice. It's easier for us to believe the contemporary reports and rumors about the Holocaust because we know they're true. It was much more difficult to believe them in the 1940s. Gorthaur ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:55:13 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8416-38979C91-17@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQin+HDyi1xJEJArcbhrULDea9KQwIVAMlIPaLEZUibKY/P66Ajy35mvRR6 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13183 Gorthaur wrote: >Clinton is a f*%&ing idiot. I don't think you'll get any argument from FotW there... :) --Dave ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 118 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 02 Feb 2000 05:00:41 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000202000041.12642.00001150@nso-ck.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13334 In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >> >>There were of course numerous differences between the two governments. But >I >>think that it is Nazi Germany that comes closest to a level of "Mordor"l. >That >>is still far closer to our own governments than it is to "Mordor". It is >>delusional, I think, to believe that there is any enormous difference >between >>our own co-nationals, and the Axis peoples who were jointly responsible for >the >>horrors that their nations inflicted. > >So you say that there was basically no moral difference between the western >democracies and the Nazis? HUH? Where did you get THIS interpretation of my words from? How did you get this out of "I think it is Nazi Germany that comes closest to the level of Mordor"? This was as compared to Fascist Italy, who in turn I allowed were somewhat more corrupt than the British. What I said was that the wartime Germany was far closer to us in moral level than it was to some fantasy realm of absolute evil, (such as Mordor). I believe that to think otherwise would promote a dangerous moral complacency: very reassuring to some, but also very foolish. > Nazi Germany organized the Holocaust, I hope I will not be called a "Holocaust denier" if I say that I dislike the word "Holocaust". It is a word that theatens to turn a complex series of historical events into a sort of mystical entity, and generally serves to prevent rational discussion because no-one knows precisely what anyone means by it. Ordinarily, I would presume that you are using "Holocaust" to refer collectively to the many mass murders of Jews committed by the Nazis, though that it is a dangerous assumption, for it appears you were using it in a broader sense to include all Nazi murders. Others use the term to cover other crimes that have nothing directly to do with mass-murder, such as the various expulsions and persecutions that took place before the war, and in its early stages. I rather prefer Arno Mayer's term "Judeicide", because it make it clear that what is being discussed is an event of mass-murder specifically of Jews. Another quasi-mystical term that was invented after the war, to distinguish the Germans from ourselves, was "genocide" -- a very poorly defined term with subtly shifting meanings that is usually assumed (not always correctly) to refer to mass murder crimes with motives of racial extermination. As a legal concept, it is almost unprecedented, for unecessarily confounds a crime with its motive. The invention of this term was necessary, for if we accused the Germans of "mass-murder" (which is, IMHO, a perfectly accurate and acceptable term to describe their worst crimes), we would also open ourselves up to charges of mass-murders that we ourselves committed. The essential idea behind the coining and use of the term "genocide" is that some forms of "mass murder" are worse than others, and that some (ours) are therefore relatively OK. I have little patience for such distinctions. i consider murder to be wrong -- the ultimate crime -- and have little patience for distinguishing grades of evil once a certain point has been passed. I believe we should preach "thou shalt not kill". When people start making fine distinctions and preaching "thou shalt not kill for racial motives", I can feel the hairs start to rise on the back of my neck. One of the interesting fine moral distinctions that has been made since we won World War II is the idea that it is far more heinous to commit mass-murder of civilians with a rifle or machine gun or carbon-monoxide van, or other poison gas, than it is to bomb them from the air and burn them alive in their cities. I personally see no reason to endorse this distinction. The latter is psychologically easier, as one does not have to look one's victims in the face as cause them to die in terror and agony, but that does not make it more moral. For the highest level villains who issue the actual orders, even the latter psychological distinction does not apply, as they need not observe their own handiwork in either case. > not only of >Jews but also of millions of Gipsies, Millions of Gypsies? Careful now. Just because the Nazis were bad should not give us licence to say anything we choose. If one wishes to condemn the Nazis, then the truth is quite sufficient, and no exaggeration is necessary. But if the motive is to completely drown out our own crimes in a sea of distorted comparisons, only then is exaggeration necessary.. >as well as the extermination of >millions of Slavs (a more systematic killing off of the Poles, the Czechs >and the Russians, with the exception of "Aryan" elements, was planned for >further on). And there was the extermination of homosexuals and mentally >retarded people. They also planned to kill off all cripples and people with >other serious physical defects. If one wishes to condemn the Germans, it is also quite sufficient to focus on what they actually did, rather than seeking additional ammunition in what "they" planned to do. If we are going to also discuss attrocities that were merely "planned" or discussed, but not carried out, then it would also be interesting to explore some of the plans that were made by the Allies. The implications of the Morgenthau Plan were quite, shall we say, "genocidal". Wartime generally gives extremists and haters licence to say just about anything they choose, and the passions of war give rise to some extremely regrettable pronouncements about what is to be done with the defeated enemy. I would be also be curious as to what additional allied "plans" might have been uncovered had we been over-run and our records poured over by a hostile enemy. I think one would find that, for every atrocity carried out, there are many that are contemplated, even in nations like our own. I'm sure that the Pentagon has detailed contingency plans for the nuclear destruction of just about every nation on the face of the earth. Sick eugenicists have been running around planning exterminations (or at least sterilizations) of the defective in a great many countries for a very long time. After the war, their ideas fell into deserved disrepute, as they became associated with Nazi Germany. What you are saying here is that some Nazi eugenicists thought about killing the physically defective, but never actually got around to doing it, because they were never given licence or power to do so. The same could be said of such sickos in all countries before and since. What they were actually allowed to do is certainly bad enough, and there is no need to discuss what they "planned" in the context of this argument.. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 02 Feb 2000 06:59:53 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000202015953.18472.00000329@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13341 In article , "Gorthaur" writes: >Another Revisionist rears his/her head... If you are going to throw labels at me, perhaps you had better explain what you mean. What exactly is it about what I expressed that you find objectionable? Do you object to my point that Germans belong to the same species as ourselves, and are no more inherently capable of evil than are we, and we no less capable than them? Do you subscribe to racial theories with respect to the Germans? In the passage you responded to, I engaged in no historical revisionism whatsoever. Rather, I engaged in some historical *speculation* regarding circumstances that might have led the USA to commit crimes vaguely reminiscent of those of the Germans. My imaginative efforts to bridge the difference between us and them is not to minimize the horror of what the Germans did, but rather warn against our own moral complacency. The only thing I said that suggested historical revisionism was my pointing out that the victors in a war, especially a total victory in a total world war, will tend to influence how history is written. This statement is so self-evident as to be almost beyond debate. That saying such things, even 50 years after the war, can subject one to cowardly ad hominem attacks, only emphasises the truth of the statement. There is of course nothing wrong with "historical revisionism". It will always be a necessary and ongoing process in the historical field. I presume that by calling me a "Revisionist" (with a capital R) your intent was to smear me by associating me with those Nazi appologists whose try to argue that Hitler was really a nice guy, and that millions of Jews did not really suffer and die as victems of his regime. I have nothing in common with such people, and I resent the cheap cowardly smear. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000202000041.12642.00001150@nso-ck.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:05:53 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.45.21 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949618961 212.151.45.21 (Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:02:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:02:41 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13726 Nystulc hath written: [snip] > >I hope I will not be called a "Holocaust denier" if I say that I dislike the >word "Holocaust". It is a word that theatens to turn a complex series of >historical events into a sort of mystical entity, and generally serves to >prevent rational discussion because no-one knows precisely what anyone means by >it. Ordinarily, I would presume that you are using "Holocaust" to refer >collectively to the many mass murders of Jews committed by the Nazis, though >that it is a dangerous assumption, for it appears you were using it in a >broader sense to include all Nazi murders. I used it to incliude the systematic extermination of Gipsies as well - maybe as many as two million. "Genocide" is a useful term for the attempt, not just to kill a lot of people, but to completely exterminate one (or, as in this case, two) ethnic groups. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000202015953.18472.00000329@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:09:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.45.21 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949619155 212.151.45.21 (Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:05:55 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:05:55 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news.medianet.ie!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13727 Nystulc hath written: [snip] > >In the passage you responded to, I engaged in no historical revisionism >whatsoever. Rather, I engaged in some historical *speculation* regarding >circumstances that might have led the USA to commit crimes vaguely reminiscent >of those of the Germans. The point about the Holocaust is that the Germans started it on a systematic basis when they still thought that they would win the war. So your theory that maybe the Japanese-Americans would have been allowed to starve to death if America had lost the war is quite irrelevant. Öjevind ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 74 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 04 Feb 2000 15:56:49 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000204105649.17424.00001259@nso-fo.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13719 In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >Ordinarily, I would presume that you are using "Holocaust" to refer >>collectively to the many mass murders of Jews committed by the Nazis, >though >>that it is a dangerous assumption, for it appears you were using it in a >>broader sense to include all Nazi murders. > >I used it to incliude the systematic extermination of Gipsies as well - That's fine. The gypsies are the one group that most closely shared the fate of the Jews with respect to their treatment and fate in the concentration camps and death camps. So I concede that your inclusion of them in your definition is not inappropriate. But not all would agree with this definition, and it adds one more ambiguity to an already confused term. >maybe as many as two million. No-one knows exactly how many Gypsies died as a result of Nazi policies, but the above figure is way out of the question. Try adjusting a decimal point, and you might get a figure that is at least credible. Two million exceeds most estimates for the entire Gypsy population of Europe before World War II. > "Genocide" is a useful term for the attempt, >not just to kill a lot of people, but to completely exterminate one (or, as >in this case, two) ethnic groups. Does not sound very useful to me, except perhaps as a mystifying rhetorical device. Apart from the fact that your definition is likely to be very different from someone else's, it raises a great many problems of its own. Problem 1: You define "genocide" as an "attempt" without specifiying how successful the attempt must be before it can be considered "genocide". Problem 2: You confound the crime itself (evidently murder, or at least "attempted" murder -- though you are not very clear about this) with its presumed motive -- the complete extermination of an ethnic group. Motive is a subjective factor which is very difficult to determine in the best of cases, but entirely impossible when the crime is so vast in nature that it must be committed by a large number of people whose individual motives may vary widely. Problem 3: Your definition is based on the phrase "ethnic group", which is itself impossible to define. Problem 4: The motive clause is further complicated by the adverb "completely". How precisely is one to determine that the Turks meant to kill *all* the Armenians as opposed to, say, 90% of them, and why should this issue make any legal or moral difference with respect to the actual atrocities committed. Problem 5: If you attempt to elimiinate a group by sterilization or otherwise preventing successful reproduction, does that also count as "extermination", or are we talking strictly of extermination through murder? You might be interested to know that according to Raphael Lemkin (who originally coined the term), genocide also included attempts to eliminate a group through interbreeding and absorbtion. This of course has only scratched the surface of the problem of defining "genocide", because so many definitions are subtly or radically different from the one you provided. Every scholarly book I have ever seen on the subject must spent many chapters discussing the debates over the meaning of the term, which to me seems a grotesquely wasteful exercise. In the aftermath of World War II, the word "genocide" (newly invented) was made a crime under international law. All member nations readily agreed to the convention outlawing genocide, because they all saw the propaganda value of a crime that they could loudly accuse others of while vigorously denying themselves (that is one of the advantages of mystical terms). Of course none of the member nations had any intention of renouncing large-scale murder as an instrument of state policy. I imagine that a single word that implies or suggests so much would be fairly useful in poetry. But I consider it useless as a scholarly term, and as a legal concept it is pure garbage. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 04 Feb 2000 15:56:50 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000204105650.17424.00001260@nso-fo.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13715 In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >>In the passage you responded to, I engaged in no historical revisionism >>whatsoever. Rather, I engaged in some historical *speculation* regarding >>circumstances that might have led the USA to commit crimes vaguely >>reminiscent of those of the Germans. > >The point about the Holocaust is that the Germans started it on a systematic >basis when they still thought that they would win the war. That is indeed a point. I'm unclear as to what you think its significance is, or how you think it contradicts any point that I made. And herein we run again into one of the semantic problems inherent in the word "Holocaust". When you say the Germans started the Holocaust on a systematic basis, do you mean that they started the systematic mass-murder of Jews, or do you merely mean that they started herding them into camps (apparently in preparation for systematic mass-murder at a later time)? What dates do you have in mind? Certainly the German level of desperation during this entire war was far higher than anything experienced by the United States. There was never any serious danger (outside of rhetoric) that the United States would be over-run. The United States never suffered any degree of strategic bombing, and its citizens any serious form of deprivation. When the Americans said they hoped they would "win the war", they meant that they hoped they would utterly defeat and utterly subjugate Germany and Japan. When the Germans hoped to "win the war" (once it had started), this mainly meant they hoped to avoid being defeated and over-run by the Allies, and perhaps hold on to the territorial gains they had already siezed. Britain was perhaps a fairer comparison. The danger to Britain at her darkest hour can be more fairly compared to Germany at the "start of the Holocaust" (whenever that is). Still, if you look at strategic bombing, even Britain's experience falls far sort of anything that was experienced by Germany. The Allies brought the war home to the German people far more successfully than the Germans ever did to Allied populations. >So your theory >that maybe the Japanese-Americans would have been allowed to starve to death >if America had lost the war is quite irrelevant. Irrelevant to what? Are you referring to some point that I actually made, or to one that you imagine I am making? I am very unclear as to what part of my argument you are objecting to. You had better explain yourself before I attempt any counter-arguments. You seem to be assuming that my argument is that there are absolutely no differences between the Axis Powers and their Allied opponents, and that you can therefore completely derail my arguments by throwing a few distinctions at me. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000204105650.17424.00001260@nso-fo.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:26:10 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.43.10 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949681374 212.151.43.10 (Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:22:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:22:54 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13723 Nystulc hath written: [snip] > >And herein we run again into one of the semantic problems inherent in the word >"Holocaust". When you say the Germans started the Holocaust on a systematic >basis, do you mean that they started the systematic mass-murder of Jews, or do >you merely mean that they started herding them into camps (apparently in >preparation for systematic mass-murder at a later time)? What dates do you >have in mind? The Germans started to murder Jews on a grand scale immediately after their invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. SS units shot all the Jewish inhabitants of many villages and towns, and this was on instructions from higher up. At the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, the Nazi hierarchy agreed to exterminate all Jews and meticulously planned how to do it. The plan was implemented at once, though it took time to build enough gas chambers and so on to start the real killing on an industrial scale. Still, after only a few months they had very efficiently got the entire murder apparatus going at pretty much the pace it would keep until the end of the war. That is genocide. That was the Holocaust. Öjevind ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:42:36 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 21 Message-ID: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20000204105650.17424.00001260@nso-fo.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-86.paddle-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 949682510 11971 62.137.45.86 (4 Feb 2000 16:41:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2000 16:41:50 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13701 Nystulc wrote in message <20000204105650.17424.00001260@nso-fo.news.cs.com>... > The >Allies brought the war home to the German people far more successfully than the >Germans ever did to Allied populations. As an aside, the German aerial bombardment did much to unite Britain into supporting the War and the fight against Hitler, even to support an unpopular monarch. The allied bombings made many Germans realise that they were in fact losing a war they kept being told by the state they were winning. Al ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 89 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 04 Feb 2000 22:31:38 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000204173138.12545.00001500@nso-fk.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13712 Regarding your clarification below, it is certainly a reasonable one. My point about the word "Holocaust" is not that it cannot be defined, but rather that everyone has a different one, and many have several. The amorphous nature of the word tends to be an impediment to rational discussion. In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: > The Germans started to murder Jews on a grand scale immediately after their > invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. SS units shot all the Jewish > inhabitants of many villages and towns, and this was on instructions from > higher up. All perfectly true, but you can hardly blame me for not being certain it fhis was what you were referring to when you discussed the start of the Holocaust. Our previous discussion had concerned attrocities committed in concentration camps, a subject to which the above events bear little relevance. If the Einsatsgrupen massacres were what you were referring to by the "start of the Holocaust", then you appear to have used the ambiguity inherent in the word to sneakily change the subject. Rather than contrast these events with the Japanese internments, it would be more appropriate to compare them to the Allied firebombings, strategic bombings, atomic bombings, and other aerial civilian massacres that took place hand in hand with the conduct of the war. In both cases the massacres took place far from home, on hostile foreign territory, and ostensibly took place as part of the general war effort. In both cases the operations actually did very little to further the war effort, but were nonetheless zealously pursued on order to provide a continuing raison d'etre for the particular agencies responsible. In both cases the ostensible military rationale for the massacres was not, strictly speaking, self defense, but rather the conquest and complete subjugation of foreign territory. I'm sure that many distinctions can be drawn, but I see no reason why one should focus on them unduly ... not if you oppose all murder, and not merely those comitted by the other guy. > At the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, the Nazi hierarchy > agreed to exterminate all Jews and meticulously planned how to do it. There was an agreement of sorts, but no meticulous planning, at least not at the conference itself. You overstate yourself. > The plan was implemented at once, A somewhat misleading statement. Jews in the camps were already dying in large numbers before the conference, and continued to do so afterwards. Matters got steadily worse and the proportion of outright murders (as opposed to deaths from starvation or disease) increased. While the conference is historically significant, there is no clear evidence that it provoked an immediate and radical change in the course already under way. It is also interesting that the Wannsee conference took place in the aftermath of the failure of the (intensely bloody) Operation Barbarossa, which can fairly be considered to be a turning point in the war. The Nazi's level of desperation increased dramatically after this point. I'm sure that most still "thought they could win", as you put it, but I still think your point is rather weakened. The "Final Solution" took place within the context of a devastatingly brutal Eastern War the likes of which Britain and the United States have never experienced. > though it took time to build enough gas > chambers and so on to start the real killing on an industrial scale. Still, > after only a few months they had very efficiently got the entire murder > apparatus going at pretty much the pace it would keep until the end of the > war. It is generally accepted that some gassing facilities of various sorts were operation by the summer of 1942. But your statement that "the entire murder apparatus" was already underway is, I think, debatable at best. Very little is known for certain about Nazi gassing facilities, as the Nazi's appear to have destroyed the greater part of the evidence. > That is genocide. Yeah, whatever. Almost everyone agrees that the Nazi Judeocide qualifies as "genocide", but once you try to extend the term beyond that particular, that's when all the squabbling begins. I personally do not see the point. I disapprove of all murder, and do not sympathize with this preoccupation with differentiating various types. > That was the Holocaust. Right. I hope I will not be called a "Holocaust denier" for having questioned a few particulars of your account. But it is precisely that sort of semantic sleight-of-hand that is too often associated with this word, and is one of the reasons I distrust it. -- John B. Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 04 Feb 2000 22:31:39 GMT References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13714 In article <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" writes: >As an aside, the German aerial bombardment did much to unite Britain into >supporting the War and the fight against Hitler, even to support an >unpopular monarch. As another aside, it is believed by many experts that the (far more extensive) allied bombings of Germany had a similar effect on the Germans. >The allied bombings made many Germans realise that they were in fact losing >a war they kept being told by the state they were winning. I'm sure this is indeed true of "many Germans", but it does not accurately describe its overall effect. Throughout the war, the allied bombers had been remarkably unsuccessful in doing any serious tactical damage to the Germans. Their efforts were simply not precise enough, and by trying to achieve precision, they lost too many planes. In a desperate bid to justify their continued existence, the aerial bombing divisions took to the mass slaughter of civilians, arguing that this would demoralize Germany and hasten its surrender. This argument was not propelled as much by logic as by a beaurocratic need for self preservation. As an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the Holocaust/Judeocide. I'm sure that the Einsatzgruppen had their own pet theories as to how their gratuitous massacres were helping to further the war effort on the Eastern Front. In fact, most analysts believe that the effect on the Germans was entirely the reverse. If anything, the tremendous death and suffering inflicted by the allied bombers lent credence to German Propaganda that the Allies were out to utterly destroy the German people. This impression was further strengthened by the propaganda mileage that Goebels made out of the Allied "unconditional surrender" policy, which sounded suspiciously like a "no surrender" policy, (and was in practice very similar to one). Further propaganda gains were made by the leaking of the details of the Morgenthau Plan, which, had it been put into effect, would have resulted in the mass starvation of the German people in an attempt to reduce its population to a level supportable by a pastoral economy. Even among those who hated Hitler, the horror of the allied bombings increased the German will to fight, to make sacrifices, to band together for the sake of the war effort. All in all, the allies probably gained far more than they lost. -- John Whelan ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:51:35 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20000204105649.17424.00001259@nso-fo.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.6e X-Server-Date: 5 Feb 2000 02:50:09 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feeder.qis.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13747 Said nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >The gypsies are the one group that most closely shared the fate >of the Jews with respect to their treatment and fate in the concentration camps >and death camps. Not "the one group", one of the groups. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 05 Feb 2000 06:01:53 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000205010153.12565.00001472@nso-fr.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!24.30.200.2!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13717 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Said nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>The gypsies are the one group that most closely shared the fate >>of the Jews with respect to their treatment and fate in the concentration >camps >>and death camps. > >Not "the one group", one of the groups. They were "the one group" that most closely shared the fate of the Jews. Other groups shared the Jewish fate in one sense or another, but none shared it as closely. The Gypsies were the only other group that were deported to the camps without regard for age or sex, strictly on account of their presumed racial identity. With other racial groups that were victimized, only the able-bodied workers were deported. Other groups were sent to the camps, not on account of race, but on account of various crimes (political, moral, or otherwise) such as communism, homosexuality, anti-Nazism, and so forth. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:10:16 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 95 Message-ID: <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-96.percula-clown.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 949752572 22606 62.137.49.224 (5 Feb 2000 12:09:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 2000 12:09:32 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13610 Nystulc wrote in message <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com>... >In article <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" > writes: > >>As an aside, the German aerial bombardment did much to unite Britain into >>supporting the War and the fight against Hitler, even to support an >>unpopular monarch. > >As another aside, it is believed by many experts that the (far more extensive) >allied bombings of Germany had a similar effect on the Germans. Before the bombing Britain was not effectively threatened by the war, and there was a strong popular feeling from the left-wing that Hitler was none of our concern - and from the right, that he was a natural ally in the inevitable war against the Soviet Union. IMO it would have been difficult for the British Government to have actively persued the War for a long period of time, had it not been for the Battle Of Britain and the unifying effect it had on the population. Conversely, Hitler had some popular support for an expansionist war - and more importantly had a political system that meant he was far more capable of pursueing it despite internal protest. >>The allied bombings made many Germans realise that they were in fact losing >>a war they kept being told by the state they were winning. > >I'm sure this is indeed true of "many Germans", but it does not accurately >describe its overall effect. > >Throughout the war, the allied bombers had been remarkably unsuccessful in >doing any serious tactical damage to the Germans. Their efforts were simply >not precise enough, and by trying to achieve precision, they lost too many >planes. In a desperate bid to justify their continued existence, the aerial >bombing divisions took to the mass slaughter of civilians, arguing that this >would demoralize Germany and hasten its surrender. This argument was not >propelled as much by logic as by a beaurocratic need for self preservation. As >an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing >divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the >Holocaust/Judeocide. I'm sure that the Einsatzgruppen had their own pet >theories as to how their gratuitous massacres were helping to further the war >effort on the Eastern Front. The justification was not the same. The carpet bombing of cities was practiced because it was the only thing the air-force felt it could do successfully, and, this being a war were losing was perceived by both sides as meaning the anhiliation of the state - and in the case of the western Allies - democracy, the air force felt it had to do something. At the heart of Nazi ideology that drove the State was the notion of the systematic execution of undesirables. >In fact, most analysts believe that the effect on the Germans was entirely the >reverse. If anything, the tremendous death and suffering inflicted by the >allied bombers lent credence to German Propaganda that the Allies were out to >utterly destroy the German people. This impression was further strengthened by >the propaganda mileage that Goebels made out of the Allied "unconditional >surrender" policy, which sounded suspiciously like a "no surrender" policy, >(and was in practice very similar to one). Further propaganda gains were made >by the leaking of the details of the Morgenthau Plan, which, had it been put >into effect, would have resulted in the mass starvation of the German people in >an attempt to reduce its population to a level supportable by a pastoral >economy. Even among those who hated Hitler, the horror of the allied bombings >increased the German will to fight, to make sacrifices, to band together for >the sake of the war effort. All in all, the allies probably gained far more >than they lost. Possibly. Since there's no way for anyone to know for sure it's probably best to agree to disagree on this. Al ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 21:47:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87i5om$jnj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.162.90 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 05 21:47:02 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.162.90 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13476 In article <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com>, nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote: > economy. Even among those who hated Hitler, the horror of the allied bombings > increased the German will to fight, to make sacrifices, to band together for > the sake of the war effort. All in all, the allies probably gained far more > than they lost. My appologies. I meant to say the reverse: The Axis powers (Germany and Japan) probably gained more than they lost as a result of the Allied bombings. -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 8 Date: 5 Feb 2000 14:03:02 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 949788186 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:03:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:03:06 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13549 On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:10:16 -0000, Alan Graham wrote: >IMO it would have been difficult for the British Government to have actively >persued the War for a long period of time, had it not been for the Battle Of >Britain and the unifying effect it had on the population. And the blockade, of course. ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 222 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 05 Feb 2000 23:29:32 GMT References: <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000205182932.18472.00000982@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13721 In article <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" writes: >Nystulc wrote in message ><20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com>... >>In article <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" >> writes: >> >>>As an aside, the German aerial bombardment did much to unite Britain into >>>supporting the War and the fight against Hitler, even to support an >>>unpopular monarch. >> >>As another aside, it is believed by many experts that the (far more >extensive) >>allied bombings of Germany had a similar effect on the Germans. > >Before the bombing Britain was not effectively threatened by the war, and >there was a strong popular feeling from the left-wing that Hitler was none >of our concern - and from the right, that he was a natural ally in the >inevitable war against the Soviet Union. This is, to an extent, true. Not only was it true in the mind of some Brits, it was also true in Hitler's mind as well. Though he recognized that some kind of war with Britain was likely, he would have preferred to avoid it, and to have this nation of fellow "aryans" emerge as his ally within the new European order. I doubt that he ever seriously envisioned Britain's conquest. It was, in fact, Britain that declared war on Germany, when they saw the "balance of power" unduly threatened by Hitler's expansions. His brutalities were somewhat racially directed, and he initially had very little desire to victimize the British people. When he did bomb British civilians, he thought of this as retaliation. >IMO it would have been difficult for the British Government to have actively >persued the War for a long period of time, had it not been for the Battle Of >Britain and the unifying effect it had on the population. I very much doubt this, actually. People tend to rally around the flag in time of war. Even when there is no real threat, it is easy enough to convince the population of one once the propaganda machines get rolling. In this case the threat was real enough. There was no *direct* threat, mind you, but the shift in the balance of power that Hitler was trying to effect stood as an enormous *potential* threat. I'm sure that, given the prewar mood, there was some grumbling about the decision to declare war on Germany. But I think you are very much mistaken in thinking that Britain's populace would have forced her to withdraw from a successful war. Britain might have made peace as a last resort if th war were going badly, and that's about it. I agree that Hitler's bombing only increased the British will to fight, and probably reduced any chance of a negotiated settlement (which is no doubt what Hitler would have preferred, as such would have allowed him to hold on to many of his gains and Germany to emerge as a major world power). But no doubt it was hard for him to think this way when his own civilians were being served to him well cooked. But the main factor here is the issue of American entry into the war. Had the United States remained neutral, it is very likely that a negotiated settlement (favorable to Germany) would eventually have been made. Otherwise it is very unlikely that, pursuing a successful war, Britain and USA would have settled for a negotiated settlement restoring the status quo, or that their populations would have forced them to do it. >Conversely, Hitler had some popular support for an expansionist war - and >more importantly had a political system that meant he was far more capable >of pursueing it despite internal protest. Sad to say, expansionist wars almost always have "some popular support" ( to say the least). The histories of Britain and the United States are great examples of this. In the case of Germany in 1939, the gains made were not even seen (by the German people) as (strictly speaking) "expansionist" but rather as restoring "Greater Germany" and correcting the wrongs inflicted by the Versailles settlement. >>>The allied bombings made many Germans realise that they were in fact losing >>>a war they kept being told by the state they were winning. >> >>I'm sure this is indeed true of "many Germans", but it does not accurately >>describe its overall effect. >> >>Throughout the war, the allied bombers had been remarkably unsuccessful in >>doing any serious tactical damage to the Germans. Their efforts were >simply >>not precise enough, and by trying to achieve precision, they lost too many >>planes. In a desperate bid to justify their continued existence, the >aerial >>bombing divisions took to the mass slaughter of civilians, arguing that >this >>would demoralize Germany and hasten its surrender. This argument was not >>propelled as much by logic as by a beaurocratic need for self preservation. >As >>an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing >>divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the >>Holocaust/Judeocide. I'm sure that the Einsatzgruppen had their own pet >>theories as to how their gratuitous massacres were helping to further the >war >>effort on the Eastern Front. > > >The justification was not the same. The justifications were not identical, no. I have pointed out a few similarities, but never with the intend of implying that distinctions could not be drawn. The essential similarity that I pointed out (and this remains my main point) is that NEITHER of the justifications QUALIFY as justifications. Neither are adequate to excuse the behaviors in question. Therefore, it is my position that both the Allied aerial massacres and the Einsatsgruppen eastern massacres consititute the premeditated, large-scale MURDER of civilians. I do not believe that any distinctions can be drawn that are relevant to contradicting this judgment. I'm still unclear as to whether you are taking issue with this main point. Is it your position that the Allied aerial massacres *were* justified ... that they were *not* murder? >The carpet bombing of cities was >practiced because it was the only thing the air-force felt it could do >successfully, Uh, right. I think I already said something very like that. My idea was to point out how pathetic it was as a justification for mass-killing. I hope you are not trying to present it as such. I would also point out that the idea that it was "the only thing" they "could do successfully", applies only to the organizations responsible, not to the individuals involved. There were plenty of other things that the individuals could have done, had they been willing to permit their organizations to be dissolved or reduced in importance, had they willing to allow themselves to be reassigned to more noble tasks, had they admitted their failure and allowed the government to assign their funding elsewhere. They had a choice, and they chose murder. As already pointed out, remarkably similar considerations can be applied to the Einsattsgrupen. Let us remember that these were not regular military, but "Special Forces". The task of their particular organization was to find and eliminate communist partisans to as to stabilize and secure the regions fought over with the Soviets. Now, had they chosen, I suppose they could have reported that they could not find too many communist partisan activists, only innocent civilians, but this would not have done much good for their own organization. It would have been reduced to a minimal size, denied serious funding, and most of its operatives would have been assigned to more dangerous tasks in the regular military (where the Germans and the Soviets were slaughtering eachother wholesale). The few that remained in the "Special Forces" would likely have been assigned to rooting out *real* communist partisans, who are likely to be armed and dangerous. The consideration of increased danger applies equally to the bombing divisions Had they not advocated the benefits of civilian mass-slaughter, they would likely have continued to have been assigned to dangerous missions of precision-bombing against well-defended military targets, at much greater risk to their own lives. Worst of all, some might have actually been reassigned to ground troops, as the ineffectual bombing divisions were abandoned. But this consideration is actually minimal, since low-level operatives who actually risked themselves had little influence on the decision making process. The real motive was organizational self-preservation. I personally suspect that a good portion of the victims of the Einsatsgrupen slaughters were not only not real communist partisans, but that many of the "Jews" killed were not really Jews. I suspect that the SS troops killed just about anyone they came across, counted up the bodies, and then sent back reports (probably inflated) boasting about how many "Jews" or "Judeobolshevists" they had killed. The real exercise was to keep busy killing "partisans" so they could justify their existence, while preferably staying well away from anyone who was actually dangerous enough to shoot back.. >and, this being a war where losing was perceived by both sides >as meaning the anihilation of the state - and in the case of the western >Allies - democracy, the air force felt it had to do something. Since this fear of "anihilation" existed on both sides, I'm not sure why you envision it as excusing Allied atrocities only. If anything, this fear of anihilation was far more reasonable on the side of the Germans (who did in fact ultimately face the dismantling of their state), and far less reasonable on the part of the United States or even Britain, who never seriously faced the prospect of foreign invasion. In particular, the Germans had a most deadly fear of Stalinist Russia, which is one strong reason why the war on that front was so devastatingly brutal. Let me add, once again, that none of these considerations even remotely excuse the civilian massacres that occurred. I am merely pointing out that your destinctions do not favor your case. Perhaps you delude yourself into thinking that the Einsatsgrupen did not have their own pet theories as to how their cowardly massacres were furthering the cause of the war against Stalin. Do you think they thought of themselves as merely killing for its own sake, and did not rationalize this as a blow against the deadly peril of "Judeo-Bolshevism" that threatened to anihilate all Germany. I assure you that they did. I would rather not delve to deeply into their justifications and their mindset, but because I do not want to even remotely give the impression that I accept such rationales. The moral excuse of "self defense" cannot be stretched to apply Allied aerial massacres, not even if we accept their rationales at face value. The point of terrorizing the German people and destroying their will to fight was so that we could more easily achieve total victory. If all we had wanted was to defend our lives, then all we would have needed to do was give the German military forces a good wallopping, to later call for an armistice when their forces had been duly decimated. The rationale was not self-defense, but the facilitation of total conquest. We wanted a final solution to the German problem, so that these insidious beings could never trouble Europe with warfare again. Our goal was to conquer them utterly and drive home the message of their absolute defeat. It was THIS goal, not "self defence" that was (in theory) served by the Allied bombing campaign. I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against "fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. >At the heart of Nazi ideology that drove the State was the notion of the >systematic execution of undesirables. I agree that the racism inherent in Nazi ideology helped facilitate the atrocities they committed. That "systematic execution of undesirables" was at the "heart" of their ideology is surely an overstatement. Murder is always easier if you can delude yourself into believing that your victims are not truly human. That is why racism is so dangerous, and why it deserves to be abhorred and rejected. It does not therefore follow that it is more moral to murder people if you do so without such delusions. I would guess that, if anything, that only increases your guilt. -- John Whelan ###### From: basil@zotnet.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 20:17:41 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13749 The blockade of Germany? Few people remember that Britain continued their close blockade of Germany into 1919. Many in Germany starved to death as a result. On 5 Feb 2000 14:03:02 -0800, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:10:16 -0000, Alan Graham >wrote: > >>IMO it would have been difficult for the British Government to have actively >>persued the War for a long period of time, had it not been for the Battle Of >>Britain and the unifying effect it had on the population. > >And the blockade, of course. ###### From: basil@zotnet.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 20:25:04 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> <87i5om$jnj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13751 In many ways you are correct. The output of German factories increased each year of the war except for 1945. Many references are made to the effects of strategic bombing. One particularly silly one is to the ball bearing plant attacks at Schweinfurt. There is no need to use ball bearings. Plain bearing can be used (slightly higher friction and more maintenance) and this is what Germany did. The allies' attacks on the oil fields/refinery complexes were far more effective in the strategic sense than the raids on the industrial cities. Naturally, one must mention the raid on Dresden. It was of no military or strategic value. The close air support and raids by tactical bombing on infrastructure was effective. The strategic bombing was, by and large, not. On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 21:47:02 GMT, jbwhelan@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com>, > nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote: > >> economy. Even among those who hated Hitler, the horror of the allied >bombings >> increased the German will to fight, to make sacrifices, to band >together for >> the sake of the war effort. All in all, the allies probably gained >far more >> than they lost. > >My appologies. I meant to say the reverse: The Axis powers (Germany >and Japan) probably gained more than they lost as a result of the Allied >bombings. > >-- John Whelan > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy. ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000202015953.18472.00000329@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:48:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949826920 24.9.194.107 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 00:48:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 00:48:40 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13733 > I presume that by calling me a "Revisionist" (with a capital R) your intent was > to smear me by associating me with those Nazi appologists whose try to argue > that Hitler was really a nice guy, and that millions of Jews did not really > suffer and die as victems of his regime. I have nothing in common with such > people, and I resent the cheap cowardly smear. > > -- John Whelan You presume incorrectly. That would be a Holocaust Revisionist. A revisionist historian attempts to make the facts (what facts there are) of history fit their current view/agenda/ideas/beliefs/whatever. It's not *necessarily* a bad thing but it isn't fair to the facts of History. Zinn was a revisionist. A.J.P. Taylor as well. Beard was a revisionist. All respected historians but none of them Holocaust Revisionists and I in no way meant to imply that you were one either. Haider (sp?) in Austria is a psuedo-Holocaust Revisionist. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000204105650.17424.00001260@nso-fo.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:57:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949827438 24.9.194.107 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 00:57:18 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 00:57:18 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13728 "Nystulc" wrote in message > > > Certainly the German level of desperation during this entire war was far higher > than anything experienced by the United States. There was never any serious > danger (outside of rhetoric) that the United States would be over-run. The > United States never suffered any degree of strategic bombing, and its citizens > any serious form of deprivation. When the Americans said they hoped they would > "win the war", they meant that they hoped they would utterly defeat and utterly > subjugate Germany and Japan. When the Germans hoped to "win the war" (once it The Allies only wanted "unconditional surrender" after a certain point once the war had begun. (Was it Tehran or Cairo or Casablanca? I can't remember) > had started), this mainly meant they hoped to avoid being defeated and over-run > by the Allies, and perhaps hold on to the territorial gains they had already > siezed. Victory for the Nazis meant complete and independent rule from the Atlantic to the Ural mountains and nothing else. It meant surviving for the German people at large. > Britain was perhaps a fairer comparison. The danger to Britain at her darkest > hour can be more fairly compared to Germany at the "start of the Holocaust" > (whenever that is). Still, if you look at strategic bombing, even Britain's > experience falls far sort of anything that was experienced by Germany. The > Allies brought the war home to the German people far more successfully than the > Germans ever did to Allied populations. No, no no! The UK (legitimately) feared imminent invasion by hoards of Germans at "her darkest hour" (Battle of Britain). The Germans DID NOT fear this, or even believe they would lose the war when the Holocaust began in earnest (with the launching of Barbarossa, June, 1941) In fact, if the Germans had not invaded the USSR they very well may not have lost the war. Remember, the Germans were not at war with anyone at this time but the UK and the British had no chance whatsoever against Germany alone. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000204173138.12545.00001500@nso-fk.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 148 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <_Kan4.14571$2C1.330950@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:00:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949827642 24.9.194.107 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:00:42 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:00:42 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.usit.net!feeder.via.net!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13730 holocaust (Holocaust) defined: "a sacrifice consumed by fire" "a complete destruction" ie, nuclear holocaust WHEN CAPITALIZED, THE MASS SLAUGHTER OF CIVILIANS, ESPECIALLY JEWS BY THE NAZIS DURING WWII. What's amorphous about that? Christ, get an education before you start spewing sophistry. Gorthaur "Nystulc" wrote in message news:20000204173138.12545.00001500@nso-fk.news.cs.com... > Regarding your clarification below, it is certainly a reasonable one. My point > about the word "Holocaust" is not that it cannot be defined, but rather that > everyone has a different one, and many have several. The amorphous nature of > the word tends to be an impediment to rational discussion. > > In article , "Öjevind Lång" > writes: > > > The Germans started to murder Jews on a grand scale immediately after their > > invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. SS units shot all the Jewish > > inhabitants of many villages and towns, and this was on instructions from > > higher up. > > All perfectly true, but you can hardly blame me for not being certain it fhis > was what you were referring to when you discussed the start of the Holocaust. > Our previous discussion had concerned attrocities committed in concentration > camps, a subject to which the above events bear little relevance. If the > Einsatsgrupen massacres were what you were referring to by the "start of the > Holocaust", then you appear to have used the ambiguity inherent in the word to > sneakily change the subject. > > Rather than contrast these events with the Japanese internments, it would be > more appropriate to compare them to the Allied firebombings, strategic > bombings, atomic bombings, and other aerial civilian massacres that took place > hand in hand with the conduct of the war. In both cases the massacres took > place far from home, on hostile foreign territory, and ostensibly took place as > part of the general war effort. In both cases the operations actually did very > little to further the war effort, but were nonetheless zealously pursued on > order to provide a continuing raison d'etre for the particular agencies > responsible. In both cases the ostensible military rationale for the massacres > was not, strictly speaking, self defense, but rather the conquest and complete > subjugation of foreign territory. I'm sure that many distinctions can be > drawn, but I see no reason why one should focus on them unduly ... not if you > oppose all murder, and not merely those comitted by the other guy. > > > At the Wannsee Conference in January 1942, the Nazi hierarchy > > agreed to exterminate all Jews and meticulously planned how to do it. > > There was an agreement of sorts, but no meticulous planning, at least not at > the conference itself. You overstate yourself. > > > The plan was implemented at once, > > A somewhat misleading statement. Jews in the camps were already dying in large > numbers before the conference, and continued to do so afterwards. Matters got > steadily worse and the proportion of outright murders (as opposed to deaths > from starvation or disease) increased. While the conference is historically > significant, there is no clear evidence that it provoked an immediate and > radical change in the course already under way. > > It is also interesting that the Wannsee conference took place in the aftermath > of the failure of the (intensely bloody) Operation Barbarossa, which can > fairly be considered to be a turning point in the war. The Nazi's level of > desperation increased dramatically after this point. I'm sure that most still > "thought they could win", as you put it, but I still think your point is rather > weakened. The "Final Solution" took place within the context of a > devastatingly brutal Eastern War the likes of which Britain and the United > States have never experienced. > > > though it took time to build enough gas > > chambers and so on to start the real killing on an industrial scale. Still, > > after only a few months they had very efficiently got the entire murder > > apparatus going at pretty much the pace it would keep until the end of the > > war. > > It is generally accepted that some gassing facilities of various sorts were > operation by the summer of 1942. But your statement that "the entire murder > apparatus" was already underway is, I think, debatable at best. Very little is > known for certain about Nazi gassing facilities, as the Nazi's appear to have > destroyed the greater part of the evidence. > > > That is genocide. > > Yeah, whatever. Almost everyone agrees that the Nazi Judeocide qualifies as > "genocide", but once you try to extend the term beyond that particular, that's > when all the squabbling begins. I personally do not see the point. I > disapprove of all murder, and do not sympathize with this preoccupation with > differentiating various types. > > > That was the Holocaust. > > Right. I hope I will not be called a "Holocaust denier" for having questioned > a few particulars of your account. But it is precisely that sort of semantic > sleight-of-hand that is too often associated with this word, and is one of the > reasons I distrust it. > > -- John B. Whelan > > ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 87 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:08:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949828118 24.9.194.107 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:08:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:08:38 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13735 "Nystulc" wrote in message > As another aside, it is believed by many experts that the (far more extensive) > allied bombings of Germany had a similar effect on the Germans. > Which experts exactly? (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I just want to read these things myself) > I'm sure this is indeed true of "many Germans", but it does not accurately > describe its overall effect. > > Throughout the war, the allied bombers had been remarkably unsuccessful in > doing any serious tactical damage to the Germans. Their efforts were simply > not precise enough, and by trying to achieve precision, they lost too many > planes. Correct. > In a desperate bid to justify their continued existence, the aerial > bombing divisions took to the mass slaughter of civilians, arguing that this > would demoralize Germany and hasten its surrender. Correct, sort of. Harris in particular stressed destroying the enemy's "will to fight" but even more stress was placed on destroying the enemy's economy. > This argument was not > propelled as much by logic as by a beaurocratic need for self preservation. Correct, sort of. It was beaurocratic inertia as well as logic. Perhaps in equal parts. > As > an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing > divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the > Holocaust/Judeocide. No they didn't damnit! The Allied bombers faced going into enemy territory, enemy fighters on the way in, flak over the target and enemy fighters on the way out. The Nazis faced...defenseless civilians. > I'm sure that the Einsatzgruppen had their own pet > theories as to how their gratuitous massacres were helping to further the war > effort on the Eastern Front. Correct. They also believed they were purifying the European continent. > In fact, most analysts believe that the effect on the Germans was entirely the > reverse. If anything, the tremendous death and suffering inflicted by the > allied bombers lent credence to German Propaganda that the Allies were out to > utterly destroy the German people. This impression was further strengthened by > the propaganda mileage that Goebels made out of the Allied "unconditional > surrender" policy, which sounded suspiciously like a "no surrender" policy, > (and was in practice very similar to one). Further propaganda gains were made > by the leaking of the details of the Morgenthau Plan, which, had it been put > into effect, would have resulted in the mass starvation of the German people in > an attempt to reduce its population to a level supportable by a pastoral > economy. Even among those who hated Hitler, the horror of the allied bombings > increased the German will to fight, to make sacrifices, to band together for > the sake of the war effort. All in all, the allies probably gained far more > than they lost. Please let me know who these experts are. See, I wrote my Masters Thesis on this very subject and I'm curious to read all this stuff that I apparently missed. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:13:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949828386 24.9.194.107 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:13:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:13:06 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13729 "Alan Graham" wrote in message > >>unpopular monarch. > Before the bombing Britain was not effectively threatened by the war, and > there was a strong popular feeling from the left-wing that Hitler was none > of our concern - and from the right, that he was a natural ally in the > inevitable war against the Soviet Union. No. The British faced extinction. And had the Nazis been able to get Operation Sea Lion going the British would have been overrun quickly as the bulk of their army had been badly mauled in the Battle of France and at Dunkirk. They had lots of soldiers but virtually no heavy equipment. Besides, saying that the British would have been content to let any one nation control Europe completely ignores the 150 years of British history immediately preceding WWII. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000205182932.18472.00000982@nso-fp.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 130 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 09:26:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 949829168 24.9.194.107 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:26:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 01:26:08 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!feeder.via.net!news.persiankitty.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13725 "Nystulc" wrote in message >I doubt that he ever seriously envisioned Britain's conquest. Careful, your proving your limits. Look up Operation Sea Lion in a good WWII history book. Because the Brits were considered Aryans, the plan was to "seed" the British isles by giving British women to SS officers to produce pure aryan offspring. The British men of course, were to be 'removed'. > It was, > in fact, Britain that declared war on Germany, when they saw the "balance of > power" unduly threatened by Hitler's expansions. His brutalities were somewhat > racially directed, and he initially had very little desire to victimize the > British people. When he did bomb British civilians, he thought of this as > retaliation. Bombing of civilians by Hitler was considered retaliation. The Battle of Britain was much more than that. It was a systematic attempt at destroying the RAF so that Germany could control the skies over the UK, thus preventing the Royal Navy sailing south to stop the German invasion. > > There was no *direct* threat, mind youit. Where are you getting this drivel? > But the main factor here is the issue of American entry into the war. Had the > United States remained neutral, it is very likely that a negotiated settlement > (favorable to Germany) would eventually have been made. Otherwise it is very > unlikely that, pursuing a successful war, Britain and USA would have settled > for a negotiated settlement restoring the status quo, or that their populations > would have forced them to do it. Yes, the British would have given in and allowed Hitler to keep his gains. Just like they gave in to Napoleon. > Sad to say, expansionist wars almost always have "some popular support" to > say the least). The histories of Britain and the United States are great > examples of this. In the case of Germany in 1939, the gains made were not > even seen (by the German people) as (strictly speaking) "expansionist" but > rather as restoring "Greater Germany" and correcting the wrongs inflicted by > the Versailles settlement. Correct > The consideration of increased danger applies equally to the bombing divisions > Had they not advocated the benefits of civilian mass-slaughter, they would > likely have continued to have been assigned to dangerous missions of > precision-bombing against well-defended military targets, at much greater risk > to their own lives. Worst of all, some might have actually been reassigned to > ground troops, as the ineffectual bombing divisions were abandoned. But this > consideration is actually minimal, since low-level operatives who actually > risked themselves had little influence on the decision making process. The > real motive was organizational self-preservation. No. The real motive was "destroying the enemy's will to fight"--to quote Sir Arthur Harris. It was also to destroy the enemy's economic base. > Since this fear of "anihilation" existed on both sides, I'm not sure why you > envision it as excusing Allied atrocities only. If anything, this fear of > anihilation was far more reasonable on the side of the Germans (who did in fact > ultimately face the dismantling of their state) Not in June, 1941 they didn't. >, and far less reasonable on the > part of the United States or even Britain, who never seriously faced the > prospect of foreign invasion. Again, refer to Operation Sea Lion. > Perhaps you delude yourself into thinking that the Einsatsgrupen did not have > their own pet theories as to how their cowardly massacres were furthering the > cause of the war against Stalin. Do you think they thought of themselves as > merely killing for its own sake, and did not rationalize this as a blow against > the deadly peril of "Judeo-Bolshevism" that threatened to anihilate all > Germany. I assure you that they did. I would rather not delve to deeply into > their justifications and their mindset, but because I do not want to even > remotely give the impression that I accept such rationales. Why the hell not? It's the best argument for your position on this issue. The Einsatzgruppen justification and the American justification for internment of Japanese-American's clearly illustrate a slippery slope. Wasn't this the point of this argument long long ago? > I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, > because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we > wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at > all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against > "fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. Bravo! Not only do I agree completely with what you said here, but we actually edged back toward the topic! Please, let's get back on topic. This is really getting annoying. Gorthaur ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:43:48 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 150 Message-ID: <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000205182932.18472.00000982@nso-fp.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-100.jewel-puffer.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 949860194 30469 62.137.33.100 (6 Feb 2000 18:03:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Feb 2000 18:03:14 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13880 Nystulc wrote in message <20000205182932.18472.00000982@nso-fp.news.cs.com>... >In article <87h3ts$m2e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" > writes: (major snppage indulged in) >I agree that Hitler's bombing only increased the British will to fight, and >probably reduced any chance of a negotiated settlement (which is no doubt what >Hitler would have preferred, as such would have allowed him to hold on to many >of his gains and Germany to emerge as a major world power). But no doubt it >was hard for him to think this way when his own civilians were being served to >him well cooked. I think your history of WWII is slightly flawed. The mass aeriel bombardment of German civilians was not taking place during the Battle of Britain, nor while hope of a negotiated settlement remained. >>Conversely, Hitler had some popular support for an expansionist war - and >>more importantly had a political system that meant he was far more capable >>of pursueing it despite internal protest. > >Sad to say, expansionist wars almost always have "some popular support" to >say the least). The histories of Britain and the United States are great >examples of this. In the case of Germany in 1939, the gains made were not >even seen (by the German people) as (strictly speaking) "expansionist" but >rather as restoring "Greater Germany" and correcting the wrongs inflicted by >the Versailles settlement. My paragraph was misleading. What was true is that there was more popular support in Germany for restoring a Greater Germany (ie expansionism) than there was in Britain at the time for sending British soldiers to die preventing German expansion eastward. Only by taking the fight so directly to the UK, did Hitler strengthen resolve against him . It was a tactical decision to bomb Britain, and a major tactical blunder. >>The justification was not the same. > >The justifications were not identical, no. I have pointed out a few >similarities, but never with the intend of implying that distinctions could not >be drawn. > >The essential similarity that I pointed out (and this remains my main point) is >that NEITHER of the justifications QUALIFY as justifications. Neither are >adequate to excuse the behaviors in question. Therefore, it is my position >that both the Allied aerial massacres and the Einsatsgruppen eastern massacres >consititute the premeditated, large-scale MURDER of civilians. I do not >believe that any distinctions can be drawn that are relevant to contradicting >this judgment. > >I'm still unclear as to whether you are taking issue with this main point. Is >it your position that the Allied aerial massacres *were* justified ... that >they were *not* murder? I'm not saying they were justified ata ll, just that there is a degree of moral relitivism concerning why the Allies did what they did and why the Nazis did what they did. >>and, this being a war where losing was perceived by both sides >>as meaning the anihilation of the state - and in the case of the western >>Allies - democracy, the air force felt it had to do something. > >Since this fear of "anihilation" existed on both sides, I'm not sure why you >envision it as excusing Allied atrocities only. If anything, this fear of >anihilation was far more reasonable on the side of the Germans (who did in fact >ultimately face the dismantling of their state), and far less reasonable on the >part of the United States or even Britain, who never seriously faced the >prospect of foreign invasion. In particular, the Germans had a most deadly >fear of Stalinist Russia, which is one strong reason why the war on that front >was so devastatingly brutal. Let me add, once again, that none of these >considerations even remotely excuse the civilian massacres that occurred. I am >merely pointing out that your destinctions do not favor your case. I don't think the above stands at all. Had Britain lost the war, Hitler planned to completely destroy even the notion of the British nation state, and the cultures/languages of Scotland, England and Wales - in addition to the institutions that were, to some degree, democratic. Had Germany lost what was intended, and what happened, was the dismantling of the Nazi state. Faced with such anhilliation, the actions of the British air-force are better understood, but NOT excusable. >I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, >because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we >wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at >all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against >"fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. Again, I think though, that you are allowing no relativism into this. Britain's actions in the war can be seen as akin to the temptation given to Boromir. for fear of anhilliation, he was willing to use the power of the one Ring. This does not mean that Boromir equates with Sauron. The danger Tolkien proposed was that in using such methods, we would win the war but emerge as another "Nazi" state in all but name (as in the Soviet Union). >>At the heart of Nazi ideology that drove the State was the notion of the >>systematic execution of undesirables. > >I agree that the racism inherent in Nazi ideology helped facilitate the >atrocities they committed. That "systematic execution of undesirables" was at >the "heart" of their ideology is surely an overstatement. I disagree entirely. I think we'll need to agree to disagree. >Murder is always easier if you can delude yourself into believing that your >victims are not truly human. That is why racism is so dangerous, and why it >deserves to be abhorred and rejected. It does not therefore follow that it is >more moral to murder people if you do so without such delusions. I would guess >that, if anything, that only increases your guilt. That's true. but not all those who murder are comparably evil, and to draw major dinstinction does not remove the evil of murder. Al ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:13:27 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 20 Message-ID: <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.20.7d Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 6 Feb 2000 18:07:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13977 Mia Kalogjera wrote: >Öjevind Lång wrote: > >> So you say that there was basically no moral difference between the western >> democracies and the Nazis? Nazi Germany organized the Holocaust, not only of >> Jews but also of millions of Gipsies, as well as the extermination of >> millions of Slavs > >Except the Slavs who decided to join them, namely the Independent State of >Croatia (or "eNDeHazija") under Ante Pavelic. In the last ten years the Croatian >government displayed sympathy for the NDH and the people who ran it, trying to >show their crimes as lesser than they were, etc. (remember Tudman had to edit >his books to omit antisemitic parts, so to avoid a threatening scandal?) >Thank Eru we got rid of them. If the Axis had won, such Slavs might have found that, having outlived their usefulness, their time in the camps had come. Not to mention the Italians and the Japanese. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 35 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:28:37 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.46.23 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949865116 212.151.46.23 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:25:16 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:25:16 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13961 Just one point here I simply feel have to address. John Whelan hath written: >Throughout the war, the allied bombers had been remarkably unsuccessful in >doing any serious tactical damage to the Germans. Their efforts were simply >not precise enough, and by trying to achieve precision, they lost too many >planes. In a desperate bid to justify their continued existence, the aerial >bombing divisions took to the mass slaughter of civilians, arguing that this >would demoralize Germany and hasten its surrender. This argument was not >propelled as much by logic as by a beaurocratic need for self preservation. As >an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing >divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the >Holocaust/Judeocide. I'm sure that the Einsatzgruppen had their own pet >theories as to how their gratuitous massacres were helping to further the war >effort on the Eastern Front. You are equating the bombing of Germany, which certainly was not done for the purpose of exterinating all Germans, with the Holocaust, which indeed was a project to kill all Jews. That implies that both sides in the Second World War were equally bad. This is of course a pet theory among revisionists. Incidentally, Tolkien did not believe that the western democracies were as bad as the Nazis; he hated some of the methods used, but he wanted the Nazis to lose, and not just out of British patriotism. He wanted them to lose because they were evil. Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87evge$bm3$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000204173139.12545.00001501@nso-fk.news.cs.com> <87i5om$jnj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:32:08 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.46.23 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949865327 212.151.46.23 (Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:28:47 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:28:47 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13956 jbwhelan@my-deja.com hath written: [snip] >My appologies. I meant to say the reverse: The Axis powers (Germany >and Japan) probably gained more than they lost as a result of the Allied >bombings. Albert Speer, the German Minister for Armaments and Munitions, disagrees with you. In one of his books he declares that by 1944, German war production was seriously impeded by the allied bombings. Öjevind Lång ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:59:46 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.a7 X-Server-Date: 6 Feb 2000 22:58:12 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13981 Said pperson@ix.netcom.com (Paul S. Person) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >If the Axis had won, such Slavs might have found that, having outlived >their usefulness, their time in the camps had come. > >Not to mention the Italians and the Japanese. You might want to look up the novella "Two Dooms" by C.M. Kornbluth, in which the main character travels to a time a few decades after the Axis won the war. I don't think it's a book on its own, but it was anthologized in /The Best of C.M. Kornbluth/ and others. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 01:20:55 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 42 Message-ID: <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13849 Hello! I´m surprised seeing such a discussion on an Tolkien-newsgroup. But it´s ok for me, cause I now perhaps get some interesting answers. I am from Germany (so excuse my English, I only know what I learned at school) and just want you, as non-Germans, to comment my opinion: I think that many of you make several mistakes in their arguments. Many speak of "the Germans" and the "Western demokracies", and forget that also Germany had been a democracy since 1918. But in 1933 this democratic order was destroyed by Hitler. Many Germans didn´t like this and so talking about "the Germans" is often a little bit too easy. Many Germans lost their lifes as they fought against the Nazis. But I must admit it wasn´t the majority. But in 1945 not only the criminal regime of the nazis and their state was defeated, but also the German nation was liberated from it. Also Germans were the victims of nazi terror. When talking about the Holocaust, nearly all Germans say it was the biggest crime of the century. A crime, that will influence German politics and German self-image also the next 50 years. For example: Many nations are proud on their history and f. ex. in the USA children sing their national hymn before school starts (I hope this is right). In Germany, only very few people sing our national hymn, exept for football matches etc.. They´re just afraid of being called a nationalist. We still feel ashamed of what happend 1933-45. But just blaming Germans for this doesn´t help. Other nations also commited crimes. The bombing of Dresden or the destuction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima by atomic bombs are good examples. Or look a few years further in the past. The USA got their territory by destroying the many nations of Indians, who lived there. Now where are the Indians now? Their cultures and nations have been eradicated. Isn´t that genocide? I know, it´s not the same as the Holocaust, but it´s the same leage. What is very important is, that the world learns something from history. Look at Austria and Haider. Also Hitler was Austrian... Hope, you understood me. Florian Florian Voigts • Germany • florian.voigts@tu-clausthal.de • http://www.heim7.tu-clausthal.de/~fvoigts/ ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:27:42 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-uK!supernews.com!remarQ.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13973 On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 01:20:55 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: >The >USA got their territory by destroying the many nations of Indians, who lived >there. Now where are the Indians now? Their cultures and nations have been >eradicated. Isn´t that genocide? I know, it´s not the same as the Holocaust, >but it´s the same leage. Excuse me, Florian, but I believe that if you checked with a reliable source you would discover that there are more Native Americans living today in the territory of the United States (approx. 4 million) than when Columbus arrived in the New World (approx. 1 million). That is not genocide. Furthermore eradication of the Native Americans (or anyone else) was never national policy. So, no, it is not in the same league and it is denial of the horrendous nature of the Holocaust and the great crime of the German People to pretend otherwise. Many, many of Native Americans were killed by diseases for which they had no tolerance. Others starved as their way of life proved economically unable to compete. Some died in warfare with the people and government of the United States. The United States did act like a bully, and the Native Americans were not wanted. This in no way compares with the deliberate slaughter, sanctioned by German government policy and conducted with the financial aid of the German government, of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and 'mental defectives'. At no time were 'experiments', medical or otherwise conducted upon the Native American people. There is no comparison! George D. Freeman IV the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Turn on, log in, fight spam. ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 07 Feb 2000 06:19:27 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000207011927.02582.00000429@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13943 In article , "Gorthaur" writes: [snip stuff we seem to agree on. >> As >> an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing >> divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the >> Holocaust/Judeocide. > >No they didn't damnit! The Allied bombers faced going into enemy territory, So did the Einsatsgrupen. The Jewish villages they slaughtered were considered enemy population in enemy territory. [NOTE: THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A JUSTIFICATION] >enemy fighters on the way in, flak over the target and enemy fighters on the >way out. I think you may be becoming confused. I am not discussing the genuine tactical missions against military targets. These were the truly dangerous ones, which, because they required precision, required that bombers fly low, and fly by day. These tended to be abandoned later in the war in favor of much safer strikes agains undefended civilians. AFAIK, the worst aerial massacres of the war faced little to no danger from enemy opposition. Since precision was not required, the Bombers flew so high that there was little danger from anti-aircraft guns. The lack of necessity for precision also meant that they could fly at night, further increasing their safety. By the time they were detected the bombs had already started to fall, and they would have come and gone before the defending fighters (if any) had time to reach the altitude needed to engage. I don't know as much about the activities of the Einsatsgrupen, but I strongly suspect that you are wrong to assume they faced no danger whatsoever. They were, after all, ground troops, operating close to the front lines among potentially hostile populations. Sure, they cowardly stayed away from the real fighting, and focussed as much as possible on defenseless civilians, but the danger cannot have been entirely non-existent. I would like to think that there were at least a few brave villagers with guns who managed to take out an SS officer or two before they died. It is quite possible (though I do not know for sure) that the members of the Einsatsgrupen faced far greater danger than the Allied bomber pilots. {NOTE: THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A JUSTIFICATION!] Of course, none of these distinctions have any real MORAL significance. The level of danger faced in no way alters the essential immorality of the goal being attempted. > The Nazis faced...defenseless civilians. So did the Allied bombers. -- John B. Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 07 Feb 2000 06:19:28 GMT References: <_Kan4.14571$2C1.330950@news1.rdc1.il.home.com> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000207011928.02582.00000430@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13939 In article <_Kan4.14571$2C1.330950@news1.rdc1.il.home.com>, "Gorthaur" writes: >holocaust (Holocaust) defined: > "a sacrifice consumed by fire" >"a complete destruction" ie, nuclear holocaust We may ignore these. It was always understood that we were referring to "Holocaust" with a capital H. >WHEN CAPITALIZED, THE MASS SLAUGHTER OF CIVILIANS, ESPECIALLY JEWS BY THE >NAZIS DURING WWII. > >What's amorphous about that? My objections to the word "Holocaust" and preference for the word "Judeocide" (for scholarly discussions anyway) is actually a minor point and a minor quibble that I probably need not have bothered with. I have given my reasons why I find the former word problematic, and see no reason to retract my statements. (I actually take much greater issue with the word "genocide" which I consider much more problamatic -- again, for the reasons previously stated). I have not said anything immoral, unethical, or stupid. I have not denied the Holocaust or justified the Holocaust, in any way shape or form. I have not harrassed those who insist on using the word except to do the following: I have on one occasion requested clarification of its intended meaning; this clarification was required, for it turned out that the word had shifted in meaning in the course of the discussion. As to your question, it is "amorphous" because it is not the only definition possible, and because it can confuse someone into thinking you are talking about one thing when you are actually discussing another. Your definition is in fact subtly different from that provided by an earlier poster. It is also inexact in that, if taken literally, it would include victems of German aerial massacres. >Christ, get an education before you start spewing sophistry. I think you are very rude, and quite unnecessarily so. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 239 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 07 Feb 2000 06:19:31 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000207011931.02582.00000431@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13937 In article , "Gorthaur" writes: >"Nystulc" wrote in message > >>I doubt that he ever seriously envisioned Britain's conquest. > >Careful, your proving your limits. Quite possibly. I do not claim to know everything, or to be an expert on World War II history. Nor is this even remotely central to my main argument. > Look up Operation Sea Lion in a good >WWII history book. Because the Brits were considered Aryans, the plan was >to "seed" the British isles by giving British women to SS officers to >produce pure aryan offspring. The British men of course, were to be >'removed'. Heh. Sounds like just the sort of victory fantasy a Nazi would have. But if we are going to bring up perverted victory fantasies, it might be appropriate to mention again the Morgenthau Plan. Morgenthau made it up, and Roosevelt thought it was a pretty good idea. It was only when subordinates pointed out that the Free World would never stand for such a horror that the thing was put on the back shelf. I think there were quite a few other perverted Allied victory proposals floating around. Perhaps another poster will be kind enough to mention one. Did not someone mention a British plan for executing 10,000 members of the German officer class? In any governement, the highest levels of power tend toward total moral bankruptcy. There is never any trouble whatsoever in coming up with perverted and immoral plans for any situation. The problem arises in trying to get your subordinates and subjects to carry those plans out. I concede, however, that achieving this will tend to be easier in a totalitarian state than in a democracy. >> It was, >> in fact, Britain that declared war on Germany, when they saw the "balance of >> power" unduly threatened by Hitler's expansions. His brutalities were somewhat >> racially directed, and he initially had very little desire to victimize the >> British people. When he did bomb British civilians, he thought of this as >> retaliation. > >Bombing of civilians by Hitler was considered retaliation. The Battle of >Britain was much more than that. It was a systematic attempt at destroying >the RAF so that Germany could control the skies over the UK, thus preventing >the Royal Navy sailing south to stop the German invasion. I have no reason to question any of this. I am concerned specifically with civilian-targeted bombing, whether before or after the Battle of Britain (I think most of it came after). My knowledge of bona-fide military operations is relatively poor. >> There was no *direct* threat, mind youit. > >Where are you getting this drivel? There is no need to be insulting. There was no *direct* threat of Britain by Germany, until, of course, Britain declared war on Germany, after which the mutual threat became direct enough. Prior to this, there was, as I have already stated, a very powerful *indirect* or implied threat in the shifting of the balance of power that resulted from the invasion of Poland and other gains. It was this powerful indirect threat that led Britain to declare war on Germany in the first place. >> But the main factor here is the issue of American entry into the war. Had the >> United States remained neutral, it is very likely that a negotiated settlement >> (favorable to Germany) would eventually have been made. Otherwise it is very >> unlikely that, pursuing a successful war, Britain and USA would have settled >> for a negotiated settlement restoring the status quo, or that their populations >> would have forced them to do it. > >Yes, the British would have given in and allowed Hitler to keep his gains. >Just like they gave in to Napoleon. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Under what circumstances are you saying that they would have done this? {snip passage you agreed with] >> The consideration of increased danger applies equally to the bombing divisions >> Had they not advocated the benefits of civilian mass-slaughter, they would >> likely have continued to have been assigned to dangerous missions of >> precision-bombing against well-defended military targets, at much greater risk >> to their own lives. Worst of all, some might have actually been reassigned to >> ground troops, as the ineffectual bombing divisions were abandoned. But this >> consideration is actually minimal, since low-level operatives who actually >> risked themselves had little influence on the decision making process.The >> real motive was organizational self-preservation. > >No. The real motive was "destroying the enemy's will to fight"--to quote >Sir Arthur Harris. It was also to destroy the enemy's economic base. Those were the rationales, and they were no doubt believed by those who advocated them. I am pointing out that there also existed an organizational/beaurocratic motive in the need for the bomber-divisions to justify their continued existence in light of their continued failure to have adequate benefit-vs-cost on a military/tactical level. I do not deny the existence of the rationales. Do you deny the significance of the organizational motive? You also need to look at the dates of the worst aerial massacres (see below) If they were truly trying to "destroy the enemy's will to fight" or to "destroy the enemy's economic base", it was in order to facilitate conquest and invasion, not "self-defense". >> Since this fear of "anihilation" existed on both sides, I'm not sure why you >> envision it as excusing Allied atrocities only. If anything, this fear of >> anihilation was far more reasonable on the side of the Germans (who did in fact >> ultimately face the dismantling of their state) > >Not in June, 1941 they didn't. OK fine. Lets go with that one. And lets keep in mind that we were comparing the Einsatsgrupen Eastern massacres to the Allied bombing massacres. I agree absolutely with your point here. It would have been totally ludicrous for the Germans to claim that the atrocities committed on the Eastern front in late 1941were motivated by fear of national anihilation. If you recall, my position was in fact quite the reverse. I argued that the atrocities were totally unjustified, and that they were motivated by petty beaurocratic motives (of the sort that folks would have presumably had rather less time for had they actually thought they were losing). It was never my position that ANY of these massacres were justified by fear of anihilation. That was someone else's idea. (Was it yours? I don't recall.) Now could you please explain to me how it can be fairly said that the British feared anihilation when they incinerated Dresden on February 13, 1945. Or the Americans when they incinerated Tokyo on the night of March 9th of the same year? Or how about Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6th and 9th respectively? And these are merely the worst examples of a general policy of civilian slaughter that excalated to its worst levels LATE in the war, when the allies were WINNING. In earlier, more desperate days they were far less likely to devote valuable resources to such gratuitous mayhem. Someone (was it you?) argued that "fear of anihilation" could excuse such crimes. I said (in effect) "Well hey, if the Allie bombers can use such justifications, the Ensatsgroupen can use it just as easily, if not moreso." But it is actually a ludicrous stretch in both cases. [snip} >> Perhaps you delude yourself into thinking that the Einsatsgrupen did not have >> their own pet theories as to how their cowardly massacres were furthering the >> cause of the war against Stalin. Do you think they thought of themselves as >> merely killing for its own sake, and did not rationalize this as a blow against >> the deadly peril of "Judeo-Bolshevism" that threatened to anihilate all >> Germany. I assure you that they did. I would rather not delve to deeply into >> their justifications and their mindset, but because I do not want to even >> remotely give the impression that I accept such rationales. > >Why the hell not? It's the best argument for your position on this issue. Because so far, I do not have to. It is not my position that the Einsatsgrupen massacres were justified. Why should I go digging up arguments for which I have no sympathy? I have pointed out the essential similarities between the two mass-murder phenomena, and so far no-one has succeeded in pointing out any kind of distinction that makes any MORAL difference whatsoever. The ball is entirely in your court, dudes. No, sir. I shall wait until someone makes some pathetically inadequate justification for the Allied atrocities, and then and only then, if appropriate, will I dig up an equivalent, parallel, and equally baseless justification in favor of the Nazi massacres on the Eastern Frontt. Even then, I can predict with reasonable certainty that my words will be twisted, and I shall be quoted out of context by someone with a short memory and attacked for presenting such baseless and morally bankrupt justifications as though they were my own. Indeed, it appears that something very similar has already happened with respect to the "fear of anihilation" defence. I hope that answers your question. >The Einsatzgruppen justification and the American justification for >internment of Japanese-American's clearly illustrate a slippery slope. >Wasn't this the point of this argument long long ago? You seem to be confused. My argument about the Japanese Internment was it indeed represented, a "slippery slope", which could, under different circumstances, have led to death camps very similar to those run by the Nazis (but which fortunately did not). I did not characterize the Einsatsgruppen killings as a "slippery slope" at all. These were genuine mass-murder crimes -- the real McCoy. I never contrasted and compared the Einsatsgrupen with the Japanese internments, since that is not an appropriate comparison. Rather, I compared them with the Allied aerial massacres, which I also consider to be genuine mass-murder crimes.. >> I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, >> because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we >> wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at >> all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against >> "fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. > >Bravo! Not only do I agree completely with what you said here, but we >actually edged back toward the topic! We were always "on Topic". This thread started with people debating the meaning of Tolkien's words bemoaning that the Allies were "fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring". Alot of people expressed confusion as to what he could have possibly meant by that. They were confused and befuddled by his apparent belief that there was NOT an unbreachably wide moral gulf between Us and Them ... by his implied belief that that breach could be crossed, indeed that it HAD in fact been crossed to some extent, and that we were in danger of becoming Dark Lords in the attaining of our victory. I do not know precisely what Allied immoralities Tolkien had in mind. Nonetheless, I have, in a general sense, been arguing in favor of his position. I have argued that in one case (the Japanese internment) the gulf was in danger of being crossed, and that in another (the Aerial bombing massacres) the gulf WAS crossed. These opinions appear to have caused some outrage. Nonetheless, i believe I am on Tolkien's side. But since you like explicit Tolkien references so much, I will try to include one in each post from now on. >Please, let's get back on topic. This is really getting annoying. There are plenty of other threads and topics in this Newsgroup. Nobody is bending your arm to force you to participate in this one. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 07 Feb 2000 06:19:32 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000207011932.02582.00000432@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13938 In article , "Gorthaur" writes: >You presume incorrectly. That would be a Holocaust Revisionist. A >revisionist historian attempts to make the facts (what facts there are) of >history fit their current view/agenda/ideas/beliefs/whatever. It's not >*necessarily* a bad thing but it isn't fair to the facts of History. Where do you get this definition from? A "revisionist historian" is a historian who advocates a "revision" of history, or a revised perspective on a particular historical event. There is nothing about the concept that implies his motive, methods, or mindset is in anyway inferior to his opponents. There is nothing about the concept that implies he is less objective than his opponents. He might be either right or wrong to so advocate, depending on the merits of his argument when compared to those in favor of the traditional view. A "Holocaust revisionist," might be a historian who advocates a revision in the history of the Holocaust. Again, not necessarily an ignoble endeavor. Arno Mayer might qualify in this regard. >Zinn was a revisionist. >A.J.P. Taylor as well. >Beard was a revisionist. > >All respected historians Ah. So are you telling me you intended it as a complement and not a smear? That was hardly evident from the tone of your comment. If only I had realized you were trying to associate me with respected historians like Taylor and Beard, and not with crackpots like Butz and Faurisson, I would not have been offended. Silly me!. >but none of them Holocaust Revisionists and I in no >way meant to imply that you were one either. Haider (sp?) in Austria is a >psuedo-Holocaust Revisionist. What exactly is a "pseudo-Holocaust Revisionist"? I'm not familiar with Haider or his/her views, but I imagine that if he/she advocates a revision in the history of the Holocaust, (as I presume he/she does), then he/she is a genuine "Holocaust revisionist". -- John Whelan ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:33:49 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 58 Message-ID: <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13838 the softrat schrieb: > On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 01:20:55 +0100, Florian Voigts > wrote: > > >The > >USA got their territory by destroying the many nations of Indians, who lived > >there. Now where are the Indians now? Their cultures and nations have been > >eradicated. Isn´t that genocide? I know, it´s not the same as the Holocaust, > >but it´s the same leage. > > Excuse me, Florian, but I believe that if you checked with a reliable > source you would discover that there are more Native Americans living > today in the territory of the United States (approx. 4 million) than > when Columbus arrived in the New World (approx. 1 million). That is > not genocide. Furthermore eradication of the Native Americans (or > anyone else) was never national policy. So, no, it is not in the same > league and it is denial of the horrendous nature of the Holocaust and > the great crime of the German People to pretend otherwise. Our former president, Richard von Weizäcker, said in his famous speech to the 40th year after the end of WW2: "There is no common German guilt, but there´s guilt of many Germans. Guilt is always individual." (hope my translation´s good enough) > Many, many of Native Americans were killed by diseases for which they > had no tolerance. Others starved as their way of life proved > economically unable to compete. Some died in warfare with the people > and government of the United States. The United States did act like a > bully, and the Native Americans were not wanted. This in no way > compares with the deliberate slaughter, sanctioned by German > government policy and conducted with the financial aid of the German > government, of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and 'mental > defectives'. At no time were 'experiments', medical or otherwise > conducted upon the Native American people. There is no comparison! > > George D. Freeman IV Yes, I think you are right. I´m sorry when I was a little bit too provocative. It´s always difficult to put the Holocaust in relation to other historical events. The Holocaust was a planned and "industrial" mass murder of millions of Europeen people, Polish, Russians, French, Germans. Just read my lines above your quotation. What I wanted to say: The USA killed many Indians to get their land. It was of course not the primary aim to kill most of them or something like that. But fakt is, that all Indians lost their culture and their way of life as free nations. Some of the now live in the US-society, some live in reservations. But the native Indian nations are gone. I just tried to make clear the dimensions. Florian Florian Voigts • Germany • florian.voigts@tu-clausthal.de • http://www.heim7.tu-clausthal.de/~fvoigts/ ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 06:17:13 -0500 Organization: Combe, Staddle, and Archet, Ltd. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: KnCNkdAkcP7QqzN7cAuvSDbU2NpiptP0YS4QL7HwBcA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 2000 11:19:20 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13802 the softrat wrote: > So, no, it is not in the same > league and it is denial of the horrendous nature of the Holocaust and > the great crime of the German People to pretend otherwise. Please be careful. Guilt is individual, not collective. Many atrocities throughout history have been committed in vengence for perceived collective guilt. IIRC it was concluded at Nurenburg that the guilt for the Holocaust was not collective. Perhaps the foremost lesson of the Holocaust is the wrongfulness of demonizing an entire people. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re:"Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:11:38 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 5 Message-ID: <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!f.de.uu.net!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.fh-hannover.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13854 Hey, be careful! There´s no reason for being nasty! You didn´t understand what I wanted to say. And you can´t speak German. Florian ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 07 Feb 2000 12:30:16 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000207073016.02582.00000519@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13942 In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >You are equating the bombing of Germany, Not "the bombing of Germany" in general, but the civilian-targetted aerial massacres in particular. I am also comparing, not "equating". Also I am not merely referring to the massacres that targetted Germany, but to those who targeted Japan as well. >which certainly was not done for >the purpose of exterminating all Germans, Each individual instance of crime was for the purpose of exterminating the victims targeted at that time. The sheer number of innocents targeted is extremely large in both cases. I cannot see why you think that your distinction makes any moral difference. Besides, with respect the the Einsatsgrupen massacres particularly, it has not been established that the intent was to exterminate "all Jews" at that point. >with the Holocaust, which indeed >was a project to kill all Jews. No, no, no. Have I not already been VERY specific on this point? I was not comparing the Aerial massacres with "The Holocaust" as a whole. I was comparing them SPECIFICALLY with the the massacres of Jewish villages and populations inflicted by SS special forces (Einsatsgrupen) during Operation Barbarossa. These occurred after the attack on Russia, but before the Wannsee Conference. I was not intending to involve anything that is related to the operation of the Death Camps. These Eastern massacres are indeed ordinarily considered to be part of the Holocaust, but that does not give you licence to distort my meaning by extrapolating the general from my particular. >That implies that both sides in the Second >World War were equally bad. No it doesn't. And you have no right to imply that I am impling this, when I have explicitly said the reverse. What I have alleged is that both the Einsatsgruppen massacres and the Allied aerial massacres were equally immoral, or (more correctly) that they are both so utterly immoral that each deserves to be condemned utterly, so that it is immoral to debate which is more acceptable than the other. There are surely other factors to consider before one decides that the "Allies" (taken as a whole) are "just as bad" as the "Axis" (taken as a whole). >This is of course a pet theory among >revisionists. You have evidently been working up to another attempt to associate me with "revisionists" ( being used once again in the sense of "Nazi apologists"). Since I do not hold this "pet theory" and have specifically contradicted it, your comment has no relevance to me whatsoever. >Incidentally, Tolkien did not believe that the western >democracies were as bad as the Nazis; >he hated some of the methods used, but >he wanted the Nazis to lose, and not just out of British patriotism. He >wanted them to lose because they were evil. Great! It is nice to know that Tolkien agrees with me. -- John Whelan ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:07:00 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 21 Message-ID: <389EC373.EF480BA8@tu-clausthal.de> References: <20000207011932.02582.00000432@nso-bh.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13842 Nystulc schrieb: > What exactly is a "pseudo-Holocaust Revisionist"? I'm not familiar with Haider > or his/her views, but I imagine that if he/she advocates a revision in the > history of the Holocaust, (as I presume he/she does), then he/she is a genuine > "Holocaust revisionist". Jörg Haider is a Austrian politican and the leader of the "Freiheitliche Partei Österreichs (FPÖ)", which means something like "free party of Austria". The FPÖ now is part of the new Austrian coalition and the new Austrian government. Haider is said to be an extreme nationalist and, for example, held several speeches on conventions of Austrian SS-veterans. Because of this, the Europeen Union now wants to isolate Austria and wants to end contakts with it´s new government. Israel and the USA have already called back their embassadors. Haider for sure is - in some points - a "Holocaust revisionist". Florian ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000207011927.02582.00000429@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 66 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:28:23 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.107.209 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949940702 212.151.107.209 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:25:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:25:02 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13960 Nystulc hath written: "Gorthaur" writes: >[snip stuff we seem to agree on. >>> As >>> an agency engaged in mass murder in order to perpetuate itself, the bombing >>> divisions had much in common with those Nazi agencies responsible for the >>> Holocaust/Judeocide. >> >>No they didn't damnit! The Allied bombers faced going into enemy territory, > >So did the Einsatsgrupen. The Jewish villages they slaughtered were considered >enemy population in enemy territory. [NOTE: THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A >JUSTIFICATION] Then why the devil do you mention it? [snip] > >I don't know as much about the activities of the Einsatsgrupen, but I strongly >suspect that you are wrong to assume they faced no danger whatsoever. They >were, after all, ground troops, operating close to the front lines among >potentially hostile populations. Sure, they cowardly stayed away from the real >fighting, and focussed as much as possible on defenseless civilians, but the >danger cannot have been entirely non-existent. I would like to think that >there were at least a few brave villagers with guns who managed to take out an >SS officer or two before they died. It is quite possible (though I do not know >for sure) that the members of the Einsatsgrupen faced far greater danger than >the Allied bomber pilots. {NOTE: THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A JUSTIFICATION!] Then why do you post this shit? And the Einsatzgruppen faced unarmed civilians, not German flak and fighter planes. They risked nothing as they exterminated defenceless men, women and children. >Of course, none of these distinctions have any real MORAL significance. The >level of danger faced in no way alters the essential immorality of the goal >being attempted. Bombing for the purpose of winning a war against a vicious enemy is on the same moral level as the planned extermination of whole popuations? Notice the word "whole". That means *everybody*.They gassed children. >> The Nazis faced...defenseless civilians. > >So did the Allied bombers. The also faced powerful German anti-aircraft units and fighter planes. Your arguments are pathetic. Öjevind ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:01:57 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 18 Message-ID: <389F0895.EF2D397C@tu-clausthal.de> References: <20000207011927.02582.00000429@nso-bh.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13840 "Öjevind Lång" schrieb: > The also faced powerful German anti-aircraft units and fighter planes. Your > arguments are pathetic. A the end of WWII, when allied bombers killed thousands of civilians in Dresden or Hamburg, there was no German air-defence any more. Nearly all German planes had been destroyed, and the few flaks was no real danger for allied bombers, flying high and in the night. During these nights, many defenceless civilians died. This was one of the great war-crimes of the allies. But I agree that this is no real comparsion to what the German SS did behind front lines. By the way: No German will understand "Einsatsgrupen". Better call it the "Einsatzgruppen der SS". Florian ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:45:10 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13966 On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:33:49 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: >What I wanted to say: The USA killed many Indians to get their land. It was of >course not the primary aim to kill most of them or something like that. But fakt >is, that all Indians lost their culture and their way of life as free nations. >Some of the now live in the US-society, some live in reservations. But the native >Indian nations are gone. Please get your facts right. The Navajo nation is doing just fine in its traditional territory. The Aguas Caliente Indians are rich (they own half of Palm Springs, CA, their reservation). Although some Indian cultural or linguistic groups have passed on with the passage of years, many others are mushing on and growing. Even some Shoshoni or Paiute (I believe) are suing for recovery of their native lands (most of Nevada). The native American nations are certainly not all gone. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- My veal cutlet tried to beat the shit out of my cup of coffee... the coffee just wasn't strong enough to defend himself. (Tom Waits) ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:49:25 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13993 On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 06:17:13 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: >the softrat wrote: > >> So, no, it is not in the same >> league and it is denial of the horrendous nature of the Holocaust and >> the great crime of the German People to pretend otherwise. > >Please be careful. Guilt is individual, not collective. Many atrocities >throughout history have been committed in vengence for >perceived collective guilt. IIRC it was concluded at Nurenburg >that the guilt for the Holocaust was not collective. Perhaps the >foremost lesson of the Holocaust is the wrongfulness of >demonizing an entire people. Identifying the guilt of the German people is not 'demonifying' them. The German people were guilty of electing and supporting the Nazi regime. In this case (and any similar case) ignorance is not bliss: it is genocide. Any politically savvy German knew what he was getting. "Mein Kampf" had been published long since. The newspaper of the Nazi Party was published and sold openly. And the ignorant who voted in their ignorance share the guilt: these people should not vote! In my opinion, the guilt of the German People will not be assuaged until every last German born before 1946 (parents and children of Nazis) has passed on. The guilt will never be atoned. Germany may only be absolved by God, and He hasn't said much on the issue. BTW, not all of the German People were guilty as charged above. There were organizations like "The White Rose" and people like Schindler. Schindler was, of course, a criminal, but he is not guilty of the common German crime of genocide. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- My veal cutlet tried to beat the shit out of my cup of coffee... the coffee just wasn't strong enough to defend himself. (Tom Waits) ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:58:48 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13991 On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:11:38 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: >Hey, be careful! There´s no reason for being nasty! >You didn´t understand what I wanted to say. And you can´t speak German. > >Florian Ja? Und warum sagen Sie daß? Ich kenn Deutsch ein bißchen. Und ich habe etwas von Goethe und Kafka und Thomas Mann und Nietsche und Rilke und Mörike usw gelest, alles auf Deutsch. So sagen Sie was Sie willen, auf Deutsch! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Being happy isn't always fun." (Fassbinder, Pre-Paradise Sorry Now) ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:46:19 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 53 Message-ID: <389F4B3A.61D36E39@tu-clausthal.de> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.fh-hannover.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13835 the softrat schrieb: > On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:11:38 +0100, Florian Voigts > wrote: > > >Hey, be careful! There´s no reason for being nasty! > >You didn´t understand what I wanted to say. And you can´t speak German. > > > >Florian > > Ja? Und warum sagen Sie daß? Ich kenn Deutsch ein bißchen. Und ich > habe etwas von Goethe und Kafka und Thomas Mann und Nietsche und Rilke > und Mörike usw gelest, alles auf Deutsch. So sagen Sie was Sie willen, > auf Deutsch! I´m sorry, when I said that someone couldn´t speak German I meant Joe Bader. And indeed, something like "das gaebe ich dich" doesn´t make any sense in German. I really tried, but didn´t understand what me wanted to say. Your German seems to be much better. Not bad, I think German is a terrible language, when you have to learn it. >>What I wanted to say: The USA killed many Indians to get their land. It was of >>course not the primary aim to kill most of them or something like that. But fakt >>is, that all Indians lost their culture and their way of life as free nations. >>Some of the now live in the US-society, some live in reservations. But the native >>Indian nations are gone. > >Please get your facts right. The Navajo nation is doing just fine in >its traditional territory. The Aguas Caliente Indians are rich (they >own half of Palm Springs, CA, their reservation). Although some Indian >cultural or linguistic groups have passed on with the passage of >years, many others are mushing on and growing. Even some Shoshoni or >Paiute (I believe) are suing for recovery of their native lands (most >of Nevada). The native American nations are certainly not all gone. Yes, that may be right. Some Indians had the chance of keeping their traditions. But the big majority didn´t have. That is what I wanted to say. And that´s a point where the USA did cruel mistakes. Most of the Amerikan country was "robbed" from the native Indians. And the Indians didn´t go from alone... All this is a little bit complicated and of course NO comparsion to the holocaust or whatever. But just think about it, how difficult it is to discuss such thematics. There are always several points of view and no nation is free from guilt. Florian ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:15:11 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 59 Message-ID: <389F51FF.B1BB5D74@tu-clausthal.de> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.fh-hannover.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13845 the softrat schrieb: > On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 06:17:13 -0500, Flame of the West > wrote: > > >the softrat wrote: > > > >> So, no, it is not in the same > >> league and it is denial of the horrendous nature of the Holocaust and > >> the great crime of the German People to pretend otherwise. > > > >Please be careful. Guilt is individual, not collective. Many atrocities > >throughout history have been committed in vengence for > >perceived collective guilt. IIRC it was concluded at Nurenburg > >that the guilt for the Holocaust was not collective. Perhaps the > >foremost lesson of the Holocaust is the wrongfulness of > >demonizing an entire people. > > Identifying the guilt of the German people is not 'demonifying' them. > The German people were guilty of electing and supporting the Nazi > regime. In this case (and any similar case) ignorance is not bliss: it > is genocide. Any politically savvy German knew what he was getting. > "Mein Kampf" had been published long since. The newspaper of the Nazi > Party was published and sold openly. And the ignorant who voted in > their ignorance share the guilt: these people should not vote! > > In my opinion, the guilt of the German People will not be assuaged > until every last German born before 1946 (parents and children of > Nazis) has passed on. The guilt will never be atoned. Germany may only > be absolved by God, and He hasn't said much on the issue. > > BTW, not all of the German People were guilty as charged above. There > were organizations like "The White Rose" and people like Schindler. > Schindler was, of course, a criminal, but he is not guilty of the > common German crime of genocide. That is a very difficult, but interesting question. There are several points in your argumentation, that are not correct. Of course, "Mein Kampf" was already published, but only few Germans read it and believed that someone would make the idiotic therories in it true. Remember, even the UK and France didn´t judge Hitlers plans correctly, so the "Treaty of Munich" was signed. Hinterher ist man immer schlauer. The Germans, who earlier or later got to know what Hitler really wanted, were in a difficult situation. Opposing the Nazi regime was dangerous. Many communists, social democrats, intelektuals did - and were murdered. Also, I think, the majority of the Germans of course knew what was going on, many of them were too afraid to do anything about it. When you were in this situation, would you be brave enough? Speaking of the guilt of "the Germans" is too easy. Many Germans were guilty, some were not. And there are many different greys between black and white. And: The big majority of German people was born after 1946, and it´s not ok blaiming them for what their fathers and grandfathers did. There´s no guilt on the "German nation", but a responsibility for future German politics. In Germany and in other parts of the world shall never again happen such terrible things. And that´s what the German government tries to do since 1950. Fighting nationalism and racism. And I think, with success. Florian ###### From: joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Message-ID: <389f5ea4.2252290@news.primary.net> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 23 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:18:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.45.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 949972694 216.87.45.170 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:14 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:14 CST Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13879 No? Why not be nasty? I consider all OT threads fair game. W** h**! On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:11:38 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: >Hey, be careful! There´s no reason for being nasty! >You didn´t understand what I wanted to say. And you can´t speak German. Yeah, you're right. I was a tad tipsy - and was typing Swabian! Besides - I have a sneaking suspicion that your English gets a better workout than my German. > >Florian > **smooch** _ joe@primary.net Joe Bader ###### From: joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Message-ID: <389f5f35.2397148@news.primary.net> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 29 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:18:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.45.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 949972695 216.87.45.170 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:15 CST Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13872 No, no, softie - he was talkin' to me. On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:58:48 -0800, the softrat wrote: >On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:11:38 +0100, Florian Voigts > wrote: > >>Hey, be careful! There´s no reason for being nasty! >>You didn´t understand what I wanted to say. And you can´t speak German. >> >>Florian > >Ja? Und warum sagen Sie daß? Ich kenn Deutsch ein bißchen. Und ich >habe etwas von Goethe und Kafka und Thomas Mann und Nietsche und Rilke >und Mörike usw gelest, alles auf Deutsch. So sagen Sie was Sie willen, >auf Deutsch! > > >the softrat >mailto:softrat@pobox.com >-- >"Being happy isn't always fun." (Fassbinder, Pre-Paradise Sorry >Now) _ joe@primary.net Joe Bader ###### From: joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Message-ID: <389f5f6b.2451753@news.primary.net> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> <389F4B3A.61D36E39@tu-clausthal.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 52 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:18:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.45.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 949972696 216.87.45.170 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:16 CST Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13881 Thank you, thank you. Now. Did the Balrog have vinyl wings? And if they were vinyl, what album was it? See - I'm thinking Iron Butterfly - maybe, praps "In-a-gadda-da-vida." Ooooh - it would be perfect! Balrog (with? or without?) his vinyl wings steps onto the bridge. Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh Whhhe eee oooo eee ahhh oohh ohh Ohn a bridge inside Khazad Dum 'eah Gandalf saw a bad Balrog dude Ohn a bridge inside Khazad Dum 'eah Gandalf wouldn't be Balrog food! doo duu daa dee bee bee laa dee too deee Oh Balrog try to flyyyh Go flap your wingngngs Oh Balrog try to flyyh Or me will singngngngs Please grab my sta-a-a-a-a-a-a-aff! Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh Whhhe eee oooo eee ahhh oohh ohh (I think this is where the drum solo comes in - or maybe, the drum solo is merely the Orcs! Yes, the Orcs!) On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:46:19 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: <> >I´m sorry, when I said that someone couldn´t speak German I meant Joe Bader. >And indeed, something like "das gaebe ich dich" doesn´t make any sense in >German. I really tried, but didn´t understand what me wanted to say. Your >German seems to be much better. Not bad, I think German is a terrible >language, when you have to learn it. <> _ joe@primary.net Joe Bader ###### From: joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Message-ID: <389f638b.3507494@news.primary.net> References: <20000207011927.02582.00000429@nso-bh.news.cs.com> <389F0895.EF2D397C@tu-clausthal.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 32 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:18:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.45.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 949972697 216.87.45.170 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:17 CST Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13866 Sooooh. What you're saying, then, is that the SS were all Balrogs! So - wings, or no? On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:01:57 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: >"Öjevind Lång" schrieb: > >> The also faced powerful German anti-aircraft units and fighter planes. Your >> arguments are pathetic. > >A the end of WWII, when allied bombers killed thousands of civilians in Dresden >or Hamburg, there was no German air-defence any more. Nearly all German planes >had been destroyed, and the few flaks was no real danger for allied bombers, >flying high and in the night. >During these nights, many defenceless civilians died. This was one of the great >war-crimes of the allies. > >But I agree that this is no real comparsion to what the German SS did behind >front lines. By the way: No German will understand "Einsatsgrupen". Better call >it the "Einsatzgruppen der SS". > >Florian > _ joe@primary.net Joe Bader ###### From: joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Message-ID: <389f661d.4165595@news.primary.net> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389F51FF.B1BB5D74@tu-clausthal.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 28 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:18:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.45.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 949972697 216.87.45.170 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:17 CST Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13868 They took the whole German nation, Took them all with reservations. Took away their favorite guns. Called them filthy, dirty huns. German people! Germans fried. We're dropping bombs! You're gonna die! (wait - someone's got to give me some sound effects here) Gee - now if only I could remember more of the song, i might be able to writhe more lyrics. On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:15:11 +0100, Florian Voigts wrote: <> >the "German nation", Don't mind me kiddies - just thought i'd liven up the current debate. So - Balrogs? Winged SS? _ joe@primary.net Joe Bader ###### From: ranvei@online.on (Tamfiiris) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> <389EB679.89FCCDFF@tu-clausthal.de> <389F4B3A.61D36E39@tu-clausthal.de> <389f5f6b.2451753@news.primary.net> Organization: me?? LOL X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 X-Tolkien-fanatic: yes Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:26:09 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.234.34 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@online.no X-Trace: news1.online.no 949976713 130.67.234.34 (Tue, 08 Feb 2000 03:25:13 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 03:25:13 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!news1.online.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13936 on one of Joe Bader's pieces of broken glass: >Now. Did the Balrog have vinyl wings? vinyl isn't an imaginary material. >And if they were vinyl, what album was it? the white album! >Ooooh - it would be perfect! Balrog (with? or without?) his vinyl >wings steps onto the bridge. 'rocks' onto the bridge? >Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh >Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh >Nnnuuh Nnuuh Nneeh Nnaah Nnooh Nnuuh Nniih Nneeh Nnaahh Nnooh >Whhhe eee oooo eee ahhh oohh ohh joe... joe. you were *definitely* up too long last night. -- Tamf the yellow dragon (that's my short title) ...far over the misty mountains cold... going offline in T- 10 days 20 hrs ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:48:39 -0500 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <389FA026.8C2CFC42@erols.com> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: pGf4GlKw5RiuGX+qbeeCAP8uJw7voEhx88cpHHajRbQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2000 04:50:42 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13799 the softrat wrote: > The German people were guilty of electing and supporting the Nazi > regime. Only some of them. IIRC the majority of German voters selected someone else; Hitler received a plurality but not a majority of the votes. > In my opinion, the guilt of the German People will not be assuaged > until every last German born before 1946 (parents and children of > Nazis) has passed on. Oh, come on! You mean that every German who was a newborn in 1945 is guilty of Naziism? And how about the people who voted against Hitler and disapproved of what he did? Are they to be condemned solely because of their nationality?? And how are *children* of Nazis guilty? Are you guilty of everything your parents did? > The guilt will never be atoned. Germany may only > be absolved by God, and He hasn't said much on the issue. Guilt is individual, not collective. Otherwise, why did we bother hunting Nazis? Why didn't we just nuke the whole country? To be candid, I find your position most distateful. It is ironic in that much of European anti-Semitism is descended from old beliefs of the collective guilt of the Jewish people for the death of Christ. It saddens me to think that the notion of collective guilt is actually alive and well in this day and age. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:15:17 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-uK!supernews.com!remarQ.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13968 On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:15:14 +0100, "Renée Vink" wrote: >the softrat wrote: >> In my opinion, the guilt of the German People will not be assuaged >> until every last German born before 1946 (parents and children ofNazis) has >> passed on. > I am not 'condemning' the children and I hope that my critics note that I have not advocated (and will not advocate) the prosecution of any individual German. However children are very much affected by the attitudes of their parents, and I consider the crime of the Nazi era German people to be so heinous that I believe that at least one unspotted generation should pass before absolution is proclaimed. Current events in Austria suggest that I am correct. (The Austrians are part of the German People by history, culture, and language. Hitler was an Austrian and germinated his ideas in Vienna.) In any case I am being less severe than those who advocated punishment unto the seventh generation... >Why do you condemn the children? If I commit a crime, is my seven year old >daughter guilty, too? > See almost any sociology or psychology book or expert. If you are a criminal, your children are several times more likely to be criminals themselves. Your child may remain guiltless, but she still is affected by you, her parent. This 'affectation' may be carried through several generations. >> The guilt will never be atoned. Germany may only >> be absolved by God, and He hasn't said much on the issue. >> >> BTW, not all of the German People were guilty as charged above. There >> were organizations like "The White Rose" and people like Schindler. >> Schindler was, of course, a criminal, but he is not guilty of the >> common German crime of genocide. > >And neither were the children! Not guilty, but severely adversely affected. > >Renée the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:25:07 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 34 Message-ID: <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-104.percula-clown.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 950030664 2487 62.137.49.232 (8 Feb 2000 17:24:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2000 17:24:24 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13893 the softrat wrote in message ... >On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:15:14 +0100, "Renée Vink" > wrote: >>the softrat wrote: >>> In my opinion, the guilt of the German People will not be assuaged >>> until every last German born before 1946 (parents and children ofNazis) has >>> passed on. >> >I am not 'condemning' the children and I hope that my critics note >that I have not advocated (and will not advocate) the prosecution of >any individual German. However children are very much affected by the >attitudes of their parents, and I consider the crime of the Nazi era >German people to be so heinous that I believe that at least one >unspotted generation should pass before absolution is proclaimed. >Current events in Austria suggest that I am correct. (The Austrians >are part of the German People by history, culture, and language. >Hitler was an Austrian and germinated his ideas in Vienna.) In any >case I am being less severe than those who advocated punishment unto >the seventh generation... That said, I have seen British and American people brandishing swatikas and giving the Nazi salute. Do these cultures need to seek "absolution"? I think if you stop thinking about the guilty/stupid individuals and start condemning on grounds of "tainted" race or even culture, you are on the road to becoming part of the problem. Al ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"?~ Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:20:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.107.209 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 949940205 212.151.107.209 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:16:45 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:16:45 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13952 Joe Bader hath written: [snip] >Tja. Waehrend den zweiten Weltkrieg, gaebe es zwei deutschen, die >ihren leben vergeben, gegen den NationalSozialisten. > >(Damn, Öje - where are you when I need you?) Very few Germans actively opposed Hitler, but they did exist. There were for example the siblings Hans and Sophie Scholl, students of philosphy in Munich and leaders of the White Rose, a group agaitating against the Nazis. They were arrested in 1943, tortured and executed together with the other members of the movement, as well as their Professor, Kurt Huber, who had encouraged them to oppose Nazism. Then there was Colonel Klaus von Stauffenberg and the other men who tried to kill Hitler on the 20th of July 1944. Some of the members of that conspiracy had found no fault with Hitler as long as it looked as if he was going to win the war, but others had been anti-Nazis from the beginning. They and everyone associated with them were exterminated by Hitler's henchmen. Still, it must be said that the Germans who actively resisted Hitler were few and far between. Öjevind ###### From: joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"?~ Message-ID: <389f5dc1.2025518@news.primary.net> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389e82a4.39014881@news.primary.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 40 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:18:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.87.45.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@primary.net X-Trace: news1.primary.net 949972694 216.87.45.170 (Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:14 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:18:14 CST Organization: Primary Network http://www.primary.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp1.savvis.net!feed1.primary.net!news1.primary.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:13878 No Öje - i wanted help with my German. Now i've gone for a fool. But hey - interesting reading, nonetheless. On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:20:06 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >Joe Bader hath written: > >[snip] > >>Tja. Waehrend den zweiten Weltkrieg, gaebe es zwei deutschen, die >>ihren leben vergeben, gegen den NationalSozialisten. >> >>(Damn, Öje - where are you when I need you?) > > >Very few Germans actively opposed Hitler, but they did exist. There were for >example the siblings Hans and Sophie Scholl, students of philosphy in Munich >and leaders of the White Rose, a group agaitating against the Nazis. They >were arrested in 1943, tortured and executed together with the other members >of the movement, as well as their Professor, Kurt Huber, who had encouraged >them to oppose Nazism. > Then there was Colonel Klaus von Stauffenberg and the other men who tried >to kill Hitler on the 20th of July 1944. Some of the members of that >conspiracy had found no fault with Hitler as long as it looked as if he was >going to win the war, but others had been anti-Nazis from the beginning. >They and everyone associated with them were exterminated by Hitler's >henchmen. > Still, it must be said that the Germans who actively resisted Hitler were >few and far between. > >Öjevind > > _ joe@primary.net Joe Bader ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 12:56:41 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 39 Message-ID: <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com> References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14011 On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:25:07 -0000, "Alan Graham" wrote: >the softrat wrote in message ... >>I am not 'condemning' the children and I hope that my critics note >>that I have not advocated (and will not advocate) the prosecution of >>any individual German. However children are very much affected by the >>attitudes of their parents, and I consider the crime of the Nazi era >>German people to be so heinous that I believe that at least one >>unspotted generation should pass before absolution is proclaimed. >>Current events in Austria suggest that I am correct. (The Austrians >>are part of the German People by history, culture, and language. >>Hitler was an Austrian and germinated his ideas in Vienna.) In any >>case I am being less severe than those who advocated punishment unto >>the seventh generation... >That said, I have seen British and American people brandishing swatikas and >giving the Nazi salute. Do these cultures need to seek "absolution"? No, because Nazism is not (apparently) a major and vital part of their culture. However there are some (very) sick individuals. >I think if you stop thinking about the guilty/stupid individuals and start >condemning on grounds of "tainted" race or even culture, you are on the road >to becoming part of the problem. > I agree. I do not believe in any 'German race' nor am I 'condemning' the great and fruitful German culture of which I am happy to have partaken. I am specifically condemning the German individuals who created, allowed, and even aided the Nazis and the remanent of the Nazis themselves. When these individuals and their immediate offspring are gone, the Germans may be absolved. Hopefully the Germans will return to nourishing and extending their culture. We need more Goethe's and Mozart's and even Salten's. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Question _your own_ authority. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:23:01 -0500 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <38A0C160.CD11FF86@erols.com> References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: yzsYKYLzso7zfVPFscwCIJXaP9Sx07J5iTDmEkKugjs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2000 01:59:09 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14017 the softrat wrote: > >>I consider the crime of the Nazi era > >>German people to be so heinous The *entire* German people? You admitted that some opposed Hitler, so you must mean *some* German people. > I am specifically condemning the German individuals who > created, allowed, and even aided the Nazis and the remanent of the > Nazis themselves. When these individuals and their immediate offspring > are gone, the Germans may be absolved. I'm afraid you're being horribly inconsistent here. You claim to be condemning only specific Germans, but you keep referring to "the Germans" and "the German people" as a whole. You keep veering back and forth between the guilty individuals and the entire people, to whom you ascribe the crime. Your reference to "the crime of the Nazi era German people" implies that *all* Germans, not just "German individuals," are guilty of the crime. I humbly suggest that you carefully rethink your position. It appears to be internally inconsistent. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:57:44 -0500 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <38A0C983.5B273765@erols.com> References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: yzsYKYLzso5vB7NycFhgWIT8D8UsLvDeGM4KWQhJT0I= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2000 01:59:21 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14064 the softrat wrote: > >>I consider the crime of the Nazi era > >>German people to be so heinous The *entire* German people? You admitted that some opposed Hitler, so you must mean *some* German people. > I am specifically condemning the German individuals who > created, allowed, and even aided the Nazis and the remanent of the > Nazis themselves. When these individuals and their immediate offspring > are gone, the Germans may be absolved. I'm afraid you're being horribly inconsistent here. You claim to be condemning only specific Germans, but you keep referring to "the Germans" and "the German people" as a whole. You keep veering back and forth between the guilty individuals and the entire people, to whom you ascribe the crime. Your reference to "the crime of the Nazi era German people" implies that *all* Germans, not just "German individuals," are guilty of the crime. I humbly suggest that you carefully rethink your position. It appears to be internally inconsistent. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:57:59 -0500 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <38A0C991.952E85CB@erols.com> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zG4Oiqr+bqThNgEL1AOnXIXHK7lpKJDAcucFuy2bgYQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2000 01:59:35 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14016 the softrat wrote: > However children are very much affected by the > attitudes of their parents, and I consider the crime of the Nazi era > German people to be so heinous that I believe that at least one > unspotted generation should pass before absolution is proclaimed. Are you passing on to your children your attitudes on collective guilt of entire nations of people? -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:58:18 -0500 Lines: 35 Message-ID: <38A0C9A4.C2D5FD4C@erols.com> References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zG4Oiqr+bqSxsmhrl5b1I7IbsLnVRGwQcl+J56b9Cxc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2000 01:59:54 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14018 the softrat wrote: > >>I believe that at least one unspotted generation > >>should pass before absolution is proclaimed. > When these individuals and their immediate offspring > are gone, the Germans may be absolved. Absolution implies guilt. Only guilty Germans need be absolved. The last of them will soon be dead. News flash: the Germans have moved on. I know some younger Germans. They are very nice people who refer to the Nazi era in the same way that I would refer to the U.S. history of slavery, as a criminal act perpetrated by one's country in a past era. They do not walk around stooped by the burden of shame and guilt. And why should they? Now, I am aware that slavery and the Holocaust are crimes of very different magnitudes, and the latter is much more recent. But nevertheless, the reaction is the same: one acknowledges that one's nation was guilty of crimes in the past, and one tries to learn the lessons that one can. But one does not assume a share of collective guilt for the actions of people now dead. That would be psychologically unhealthy, for them or for me. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: 9 Feb 2000 02:26:05 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <87qj7t$boq$1@news.asu.edu> References: <389f661d.4165595@news.primary.net> <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.ne Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ncar!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14027 In a previous article, joe@primary.net (Joe Bader) says: >Gee - now if only I could remember more of the song, i might be able >to writhe more lyrics. The line in that song that has always given me a sad laugh is this one: "They took away our way of life, The tomohak and the Bowie knife." Neither of which existed before the white man. It could be argued that the tomohak did, in the form of the stone war club or stone ax. The Bowie knife was the special invention for or by Jim Bowie. It had nothing to with the Cherokee nation or culture at all. -- ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:11:39 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com> <38A0C160.CD11FF86@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14065 On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:23:01 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: >Your >reference to "the crime of the Nazi era German people" >implies that *all* Germans, not just "German individuals," are >guilty of the crime. In your mind only. The 'German people' in normal speech means the vast majority of the people of German nationality, language, culture, and Germany, not every last soul ever touch by 'Germanitude'. I explicitly excepted certain people. I was not and will not be exhaustive. Merely exhausting. Now that you are splitting hairs, reasonable discussion is impossible. I refuse to play. Good day! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James T. Kirk ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:12:19 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <38A0C991.952E85CB@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14058 On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:57:59 -0500, Flame of the West wrote: >the softrat wrote: > >> However children are very much affected by the >> attitudes of their parents, and I consider the crime of the Nazi era >> German people to be so heinous that I believe that at least one >> unspotted generation should pass before absolution is proclaimed. > >Are you passing on to your children your attitudes on >collective guilt of entire nations of people? I hope so. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James T. Kirk ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000207011932.02582.00000432@nso-bh.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 05:01:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 950072470 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:01:10 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:01:10 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14055 "Nystulc" wrote in message > > Where do you get this definition from? A "revisionist historian" is a > historian who advocates a "revision" of history, or a revised perspective on a > particular historical event. There is nothing about the concept that implies > his motive, methods, or mindset is in anyway inferior to his opponents. There > is nothing about the concept that implies he is less objective than his > opponents. He might be either right or wrong to so advocate, depending on the > merits of his argument when compared to those in favor of the traditional view. The definition of Holocaust was from the dictionary. Just so we all know what exactly were talking about when we use that term. I never said that "revisionism" is inferior. I said it's unfair (at times) to the facts of History. However, when revision of History involves one's own political views (or whatever) it's not always a good thing. > > >but none of them Holocaust Revisionists and I in no > >way meant to imply that you were one either. Haider (sp?) in Austria is a > >psuedo-Holocaust Revisionist. > > What exactly is a "pseudo-Holocaust Revisionist"? I'm not familiar with Haider > or his/her views, but I imagine that if he/she advocates a revision in the > history of the Holocaust, (as I presume he/she does), then he/she is a genuine > "Holocaust revisionist". Haider (still not sure I'm spelling it right) is a neo-facist who's party just got into power in Austria. Gorthaur ###### From: "Gorthaur" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000207011927.02582.00000429@nso-bh.news.cs.com> <389F0895.EF2D397C@tu-clausthal.de> <389f638b.3507494@news.primary.net> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 05:02:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.194.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.il.home.com 950072542 24.9.194.107 (Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:02:22 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:02:22 PST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.il.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14054 Well, there are Luftbalrogs and waffenbalrogs.... Gort "Joe Bader" wrote in message news:389f638b.3507494@news.primary.net... > Sooooh. > > What you're saying, then, is that the SS were all Balrogs! > > So - wings, or no? > > On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:01:57 +0100, Florian Voigts > wrote: > > >"Öjevind Lång" schrieb: > > > >> The also faced powerful German anti-aircraft units and fighter planes. Your > >> arguments are pathetic. > > > >A the end of WWII, when allied bombers killed thousands of civilians in Dresden > >or Hamburg, there was no German air-defence any more. Nearly all German planes > >had been destroyed, and the few flaks was no real danger for allied bombers, > >flying high and in the night. > >During these nights, many defenceless civilians died. This was one of the great > >war-crimes of the allies. > > > >But I agree that this is no real comparsion to what the German SS did behind > >front lines. By the way: No German will understand "Einsatsgrupen". Better call > >it the "Einsatzgruppen der SS". > > > >Florian > > > > _ > > joe@primary.net > Joe Bader ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:14:33 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 60 Message-ID: <87r7jt$9hs$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <87pjg8$2dn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-167.hogfish.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 950084029 9788 62.137.29.167 (9 Feb 2000 08:13:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2000 08:13:49 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14040 the softrat wrote in message <87l0as8d07egpg6ujb9v65cb7h6efnd1l4@4ax.com>... >On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:25:07 -0000, "Alan Graham" > wrote: >>the softrat wrote in message ... >>>I am not 'condemning' the children and I hope that my critics note >>>that I have not advocated (and will not advocate) the prosecution of >>>any individual German. However children are very much affected by the >>>attitudes of their parents, and I consider the crime of the Nazi era >>>German people to be so heinous that I believe that at least one >>>unspotted generation should pass before absolution is proclaimed. >>>Current events in Austria suggest that I am correct. (The Austrians >>>are part of the German People by history, culture, and language. >>>Hitler was an Austrian and germinated his ideas in Vienna.) In any >>>case I am being less severe than those who advocated punishment unto >>>the seventh generation... > >>That said, I have seen British and American people brandishing swatikas and >>giving the Nazi salute. Do these cultures need to seek "absolution"? > >No, because Nazism is not (apparently) a major and vital part of their >culture. However there are some (very) sick individuals. Nazism is not a major or a vital part of modern German culture. Why are "the German people" to blame as a nation for their sick people, but the UK and the US exempt? >>I think if you stop thinking about the guilty/stupid individuals and start >>condemning on grounds of "tainted" race or even culture, you are on the road >>to becoming part of the problem. >> >I agree. I do not believe in any 'German race' nor am I 'condemning' >the great and fruitful German culture of which I am happy to have >partaken. I am specifically condemning the German individuals who >created, allowed, and even aided the Nazis and the remanent of the >Nazis themselves. When these individuals and their immediate offspring >are gone, the Germans may be absolved. I don't understand why you can condemn a people because of the current abhorrent beliefs of a few, or of the terrible actions of their ancestors. Again, I don't see how by these criteria the USA and the UK are exempt, but the entire German nation still needs to be absolved? > Hopefully the Germans will >return to nourishing and extending their culture. We need more >Goethe's and Mozart's and even Salten's. And if they produce less quality footballers so we can finally beat them, I'll be very happt indeed. Al ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 08:27:46 GMT References: <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000209032746.21292.00002030@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14045 In article <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de>, Florian Voigts writes: >> Excuse me, Florian, but I believe that if you checked with a reliable >> source you would discover that there are more Native Americans living >> today in the territory of the United States (approx. 4 million) than >> when Columbus arrived in the New World (approx. 1 million). That is >> not genocide. The person who wrote this has very poor understanding of demographics. Since the time of Columbus, the world population has increased by a factor of about 12. If the Native Americans have increased ONLY by a factor of 4 since that time, that is 100% consistent with a population that has experienced MAJOR catastrophes. It could mean that 2/3rds of them were whiped out before the population explosion caused them to grow at the same rate as everyone else. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 08:27:46 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000209032746.21292.00002029@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14050 In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >jbwhelan@my-deja.com hath written: >>My appologies. I meant to say the reverse: The Axis powers (Germany >>and Japan) probably gained more than they lost as a result of the Allied >>bombings. > >Albert Speer, the German Minister for Armaments and Munitions, disagrees >with you. In one of his books he declares that by 1944, German war >production was seriously impeded by the allied bombings. He does not disagree with me at all. The statements are entirely consistent (even without the consideration that I was discussing civilian-targetted massacres, and not bombing missions generally). Please think about it. I'm sure you can figure this out without me explaining it to you.. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 206 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 08:27:49 GMT References: <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000209032749.21292.00002031@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14048 In article <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" writes: >I think your history of WWII is slightly flawed. I won't deny that. My knowledge is extremely inadequate in a whole host of areas. In this case, we are discussing a side issue not central to my main argument, so I will not find it painful if I have to concede a point. >The mass aeriel bombardment >of German civilians was not taking place during the Battle of Britain, nor >while hope of a negotiated settlement remained. I won't contest any of this. But I have a question for you (and I honestly don't know the answer). Did the German's have an actual policy of targeting civilians specifically during the Battle of Britain, or did this develop much later? I know that there was much civilian death, but this can easily occur even when the planned target is a military one. I'll accept the evidence either way. I have absolutely no reason to suspect the Nazis of moral scruples. >>>The justification was not the same. >> >>The justifications were not identical, no. I have pointed out a few >>similarities, but never with the intend of implying that distinctions could not >>be drawn. >> >>The essential similarity that I pointed out (and this remains my main point) is >>that NEITHER of the justifications QUALIFY as justifications. Neither are >>adequate to excuse the behaviors in question. Therefore, it is my position >>that both the Allied aerial massacres and the Einsatsgruppen eastern massacres >>consititute the premeditated, large-scale MURDER of civilians. I do not >>believe that any distinctions can be drawn that are relevant to contradicting >>this judgment. >> >>I'm still unclear as to whether you are taking issue with this main point. Is >>it your position that the Allied aerial massacres *were* justified ... that >>they were *not* murder? > >I'm not saying they were justified at all, Glad to hear it. > just that there is a degree of >moral relitivism concerning why the Allies did what they did and why the >Nazis did what they did. I'm not sure what you mean by "moral relativism" in this context. Can you point out a consideration in favor of the Allied massacres that cannot be equally applied to the Einsatzgruppen? >>>and, this being a war where losing was perceived by both sides >>>as meaning the anihilation of the state - and in the case of the western >>>Allies - democracy, the air force felt it had to do something. >> >>Since this fear of "anihilation" existed on both sides, I'm not sure why >you >>envision it as excusing Allied atrocities only. If anything, this fear of >>anihilation was far more reasonable on the side of the Germans (who did in >fact >>ultimately face the dismantling of their state), and far less reasonable on >the >>part of the United States or even Britain, who never seriously faced the >>prospect of foreign invasion. In particular, the Germans had a most deadly >>fear of Stalinist Russia, which is one strong reason why the war on that >front >>was so devastatingly brutal. Let me add, once again, that none of these >>considerations even remotely excuse the civilian massacres that occurred. >I am >>merely pointing out that your destinctions do not favor your case. > >I don't think the above stands at all. Had Britain lost the war, Hitler >planned to completely destroy even the notion of the British nation state, >and the cultures/languages of Scotland, England and Wales - in addition to >the institutions that were, to some degree, democratic. Hmm. Sounds kinda like what England did to Ireland. Sounds kinda like what the Soviets did to any territory they got their hands on. I'm not sure how realistic this worst case nightmare fantasy is, but it is certainly no worse than what most Germans expected to suffer if they were over-run by Stalin. Remember, it was in the context of the war with Stalin that these Eastern massacres were commited (The US had not even entered the War yet). The Nazis totally demonized the Soviets and were in total terror of them as well (not without reason). In the final stages of the war, after Hitler's suicide, his successor (Admiral Doenitz, I believe) did his best to ensure that the inevitable surrender brought as many troops as possible into Western rather than Soviet hands. He was only partially successful, because the Allied "Unconditional Surrender" policy required that he surrender to all 3 Allied powers simultaneously, but he did his best. >Had Germany lost what was intended, and what happened, was the dismantling >of the Nazi state. It has been my understanding that the callous practices of the advancing Soviet Army resulted in the deaths of about 2 million German civilians. Stalin's plans for his portion of defeated Germany were extremely draconian, and resulted in additional widespread starvation that was even worse than that suffered in the Western sections. Allied plans were draconian as well, but Stalin's was far worse. Cold war considerations caused both sides to be far less draconian than they had originally intended, in order to gain at least some support from the populace so it could serve as a bullwark against the opposing superpower. As far as the SS are concerned (and it is them we are talking about) they could be expected to be treated far worse than the general population. It was by no means unreasonable for them to expect they would be summarily executed in the event of defeat, particularly by the Soviets. Your arguments also make a very odd assumption. You assume that the Germans knew that we were the Good guys (and that they were the Bad guys), and that therefore had confidence that we would treat them with equanimity and justice on their defeat. A little thought and consideration should show how unrealistic this assumption is. [I have an opportunity to mention Tokien at this point: I thought it was a very realistic touch when, at the end of the battle of Helm's Deep, the opposing humans are shocked and surprised by the mercy shown them by the forces of Rohan. Tolkien had enough imagination to realize that perspectives vary wildly.] >Faced with such anhilliation, the actions of the British air-force are >better understood, but NOT excusable. I want to point out once again what I have said elsewhere. The "fear of anihilation" defense is totally inapplicable to the Allied aerial massacres, the worst of which took place extremely late in the war at a point when there was absolutely no chance whatsoever of victory by Germany or Japan. If it can be stretched this far, it can be stretched more easily to cover German fear of Stalin at the time of Operation Barbarossa. It is, of course, a stretch in either case. >>I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, >>because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we >>wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at >>all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against >>"fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. > >Again, I think though, that you are allowing no relativism into this. >Britain's actions in the war can be seen as akin to the temptation given to >Boromir. for fear of anhilliation, he was willing to use the power of the >one Ring. This does not mean that Boromir equates with Sauron. I do not want to underestimate the forces of temptation, the pressures or madness, or the limits of the human will when dealing with these forces. It is well known that the pressures and horrors of war can drive one to madness (even if one is not mad already), so they can certainly drive one to murder. My concern is with condemning the sin. Judging the sinner is a task I leave to God. What I don't understand is why you feel such considerations are more applicable to British than they are to Germans. >The danger Tolkien proposed was that in using such methods, we would win the >war but emerge as another "Nazi" state in all but name (as in the Soviet >Union). I hope this does not create another huge debate, but I suspect that this has already happened to a certain degree. I believe that the United States damaged itself morally and became significantly more corrupt in the process of winning World War II. I am deeply afraid that this process will continue, particularly now that the US is unchallanged as the only Superpower. It is the nature of unopposed power to result in tyrrany. [snip something where we "agree to disagree"] >>Murder is always easier if you can delude yourself into believing that your >>victims are not truly human. That is why racism is so dangerous, and why it >>deserves to be abhorred and rejected. It does not therefore follow that it is >>more moral to murder people if you do so without such delusions. I would guess >>that, if anything, that only increases your guilt. > >That's true. but not all those who murder are comparably evil, and to draw >major dinstinction does not remove the evil of murder. Right. But as I said before, my intent is to condemn the sin, not the sinner. As a Christian, I consider it myself bound NOT to judge the souls of others, and this applies as much to those responsible for the Eastern massacres as it does to the Allied firebombings. And you still have not drawn a consideration in favor of the Bombings that could not be equally applied to the Einsatzgruppen. Let me paraphrase Tolkien: We may not judge the souls of others, because we do not know their limits or their breaking point. At the same time, we must hold ourselves to the highest standards, for we do not know our own limits, and if we hold ourselves to anything less, we will surely fall short. [Can anyone find the letter, and the exact words?] Let us not now equivocate about the allied bombings, while we are sit safely at our computer screens in time of peace. Let us condemn those crimes utterly (but not the criminal), so that we may have a clear moral compass. If we cannot do that now, from the safety of our armchairs, then how can we possibly hope to hold firm when our souls are seared by the fires of war, or minds maddened by fear, and our perspective warped by propaganda and misinformation? Let us not equivocate about the fact that it is wrong to murder innocent civilians. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 08:27:49 GMT References: <389F0895.EF2D397C@tu-clausthal.de> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000209032749.21292.00002032@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14049 In article <389F0895.EF2D397C@tu-clausthal.de>, Florian Voigts writes: >But I agree that this is no real comparsion to what the German SS did behind >front lines. Everyone seems to agree with this, but no-one has successfully answered my challenge to come up with a morally significant distinction. The massacres were approximately equivalent in scale, so how are the Eastern massacres worse? I am not saying no such distinctions are possible (I can actually think of one or two minor ones myself), but so far no-one has produced. > By the way: No German will understand "Einsatsgrupen". Better >call it the "Einsatzgruppen der SS". Correction noted. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 128 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 08:27:52 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000209032752.21292.00002035@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!newsmaster-03.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14046 In article , "Öjevind Lång" writes: >>>No they didn't damnit! The Allied bombers faced going into enemy territory, >> >>So did the Einsatsgrupen. The Jewish villages they slaughtered were considered >>enemy population in enemy territory. [NOTE: THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A >>JUSTIFICATION] > >Then why the devil do you mention it? I am sorry that you have been having such trouble following the arguments in this thread. I will try to do a brief recap for you. I started by maintaining that the Einsatzgruppen's Eastern massacres and the Allied aerial massacres were morally comparable in the sense that BOTH were large-scale mass murders and BOTH were totally unjustifiable. A number of people then took offense. The counter-position was not clearly stated, but it was obviously felt that the Allied bombings were at least somewhat justifiable, and therefore did not belong in the same category as the Eastern massacres. I then challenged my detractors to come up with a distinction that would be considered MORALLY significant. Several alleged distinctions were then pointed out by my opponents. These took the form of justifications applied to the Allied mass-killings.. I then argued that these alleged justifications could be applied equally to the Einsatzgruppen mass-killings. My purpose was not to justify those killings (which would have contradicted my initial position). but to show that they did not qualify as distinctions, and could not be used to morally separate the two events. (This is the direct answer to your question "Why the devil did you mention it?"). ------ Now I knew that shooting down all my opponents' distinctions might put them in a tough psychological position. The logical and honorable thing to do (if they could not come up with better distinctions) would have been to concede that there was no moral distinction between the two events. This would lead them to two possible conclusions: A) Both are (equally) justifiable killings, or B) Both are (equally) unjustifiable mass murders. I knew they would rule out Option A because it would involve "justifying the Holocaust" which is one of the most despised thought-crimes one can commit in Western society. Option B, however, would scarcely be preferable, for accepting it would involve admitting that they themselves had tried to justify an equivalent atrocity, implying an equivalent thought crime. They might feel as though they were being accused (though I had accused them of nothing). It seemed to be quite likely that, feeling thus trapped, they would strike out irrationally and try to point the finger at me instead, arguing that it was *I* (not they) who had tried to justify mass-murder. I was determined not to give anyone this opportunity. So, when I argued that certain "distinctions" could be applied equally to Einsatzgruppen, I made a point of noting that "THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A JUSTIFICATION!" >>I don't know as much about the activities of the Einsatsgrupen, but I strongly >>suspect that you are wrong to assume they faced no danger whatsoever. They >>were, after all, ground troops, operating close to the front lines among >>potentially hostile populations. Sure, they cowardly stayed away from the real >>fighting, and focussed as much as possible on defenseless civilians, but the >>danger cannot have been entirely non-existent. I would like to think that >>there were at least a few brave villagers with guns who managed to take out an >>SS officer or two before they died. It is quite possible (though I do not know >>for sure) that the members of the Einsatsgrupen faced far greater danger than >>the Allied bomber pilots. {NOTE: THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A JUSTIFICATION!] > >Then why do you post this shit? See above, and try not to be rude and offensive.. >And the Einsatzgruppen faced unarmed >civilians, not German flak and fighter planes. They risked nothing as they >exterminated defenceless men, women and children. The SS Einsatzgruppen faced fierce partisan resistance. IOW, not only did they risk possible encounters with the Soviet Military, but faced significant danger from the "defenseless civilians" themselves. Look it up if you don't believe me. The Allied bombings that targetted civilians faced almost no resistence or opposition whatsoever, particularly in the worst massacres late in the war. Look it up if you don't believe me. [Once again: I am merely trying to shoot down your destinctions. None of this is intended as justification for the cowardly Einsatzgruppen massacres.] >>Of course, none of these distinctions have any real MORAL significance. The >>level of danger faced in no way alters the essential immorality of the goal >>being attempted. > >Bombing for the purpose of winning a war against a vicious enemy is on the >same moral level as the planned extermination of whole popuations? Notice >the word "whole". That means *everybody*.They gassed children. Do you think that the "vicious enemy" excuse (unacceptable though it is) cannot be applied equally to those fighting against Stalinist Russia? He was the devil incarnate in Nazi ideology, and pretty bad in reality as well. The stated purpose of the massacres was to protect the German army from terror/guerilla/partisan attacks from the rear as they moved through Soviet territory. [And I remind everyone again that none of this is intended as justification -- I am merely shooting down inapplicable distinctions]. And how many times must I clarify that I am discussing the Einsatzgruppen massacres, and not the Holocaust as a whole? No gassing whatsoever was involved, and no "final solution" was yet clearly planned (this was all before the Wannsee conference). The stated purpose of the massacres was not the extermination of the "whole" Jewish race (see above paragraph). >>> The Nazis faced...defenseless civilians. >> >>So did the Allied bombers. > >The also faced powerful German anti-aircraft units and fighter planes. Do some reading. I think you will find that the facts are otherwise. >Your arguments are pathetic. That really hurts. Your opinion is SO important to me.. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 08:27:52 GMT References: <389EC373.EF480BA8@tu-clausthal.de> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000209032752.21292.00002036@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14047 In article <389EC373.EF480BA8@tu-clausthal.de>, Florian Voigts writes: >Jörg Haider is a Austrian politican and the leader of the "Freiheitliche >Partei >Österreichs (FPÖ)", which means something like "free party of Austria" Thank you for the explanation. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 09 Feb 2000 12:45:27 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000209074527.12642.00002653@nso-ck.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14051 In article , the softrat writes: >In my opinion, the guilt of the German People will not be assuaged >until every last German born before 1946 (parents and children of >Nazis) has passed on. The guilt will never be atoned. Germany may only >be absolved by God, and He hasn't said much on the issue. I think that Softrat's opinions on German collective guilt and moral taint lack a certain amount of perspective. I also think that moral people should be more concerned with motes in their own eyes than with motes (or even logs) in the eyes of others. The usual practice is to look at the motes of others while ignoring one's own logs. It is interesting to note that over 70% of the United States population believe that the Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified. I doubt that you would find nearly this proportion of Germans who would currently be willing to endorse the notion that mass-murder of civilians is justified in wartime. The next nation to commit crimes that rival those of the Nazis is far more likely to be the United States than Germany. For one thing, the United States stands as the most powerful nation in the world. Power corrupts, and unopposed power is almost always abused. Since World War II, the United States has been directly or indirectly responsible for much atrocity and tyranny worldwide. The mainstream media glosses over and justifies everything, and vast bulk of the population remains ignorant, unconcerned, and even approving. Meanwhile we congratulate ourselves on being morally superior to everyone else. The smugness of our moral complacency is so great that I shudder to think what we would be capable of if we ever came to experience real horror, hardship, and desperation. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000209032749.21292.00002031@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 276 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:24:12 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.34.20 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 950109646 212.151.34.20 (Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:20:46 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:20:46 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!uucp.muenster.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14053 Nystulc hath written: >In article <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" writes: > [snip] >I won't contest any of this. But I have a question for you (and I honestly >don't know the answer). Did the German's have an actual policy of targeting >civilians specifically during the Battle of Britain, or did this develop much >later? I know that there was much civilian death, but this can easily occur >even when the planned target is a military one. During the Spanish Civil War, the German Condor Legion annihilated Guernica, the historical centre of Basque culture. They bombed a city that had no military value or installations or industries of any kind. This strategy - terror bombing - was repeated against Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry and a great number of other cities and towns from the very outset. The Germans even had a triumphant song including the words "Bomben, Bomben, Bomben über Engeland" ("Bombs, Bombs, Bombs Over England"). At a meeting in the Sportpalast, Joseph Goebbels asked the people assembled: "Do you want the total war?" They all screamed: "Yes! Yes! Yes!" Öjevind > >I'll accept the evidence either way. I have absolutely no reason to suspect >the Nazis of moral scruples. > >>>>The justification was not the same. >>> >>>The justifications were not identical, no. I have pointed out a few >>>similarities, but never with the intend of implying that distinctions could >not >>>be drawn. >>> >>>The essential similarity that I pointed out (and this remains my main point) >is >>>that NEITHER of the justifications QUALIFY as justifications. Neither are >>>adequate to excuse the behaviors in question. Therefore, it is my position >>>that both the Allied aerial massacres and the Einsatsgruppen eastern >massacres >>>consititute the premeditated, large-scale MURDER of civilians. I do not >>>believe that any distinctions can be drawn that are relevant to contradicting >>>this judgment. >>> >>>I'm still unclear as to whether you are taking issue with this main point. >Is >>>it your position that the Allied aerial massacres *were* justified ... that >>>they were *not* murder? >> >>I'm not saying they were justified at all, > >Glad to hear it. > >> just that there is a degree of >>moral relitivism concerning why the Allies did what they did and why the >>Nazis did what they did. > >I'm not sure what you mean by "moral relativism" in this context. Can you >point out a consideration in favor of the Allied massacres that cannot be >equally applied to the Einsatzgruppen? > >>>>and, this being a war where losing was perceived by both sides >>>>as meaning the anihilation of the state - and in the case of the western >>>>Allies - democracy, the air force felt it had to do something. >>> >>>Since this fear of "anihilation" existed on both sides, I'm not sure why >>you >>>envision it as excusing Allied atrocities only. If anything, this fear of >>>anihilation was far more reasonable on the side of the Germans (who did in >>fact >>>ultimately face the dismantling of their state), and far less reasonable on >>the >>>part of the United States or even Britain, who never seriously faced the >>>prospect of foreign invasion. In particular, the Germans had a most deadly >>>fear of Stalinist Russia, which is one strong reason why the war on that >>front >>>was so devastatingly brutal. Let me add, once again, that none of these >>>considerations even remotely excuse the civilian massacres that occurred. >>I am >>>merely pointing out that your destinctions do not favor your case. >> >>I don't think the above stands at all. Had Britain lost the war, Hitler >>planned to completely destroy even the notion of the British nation state, >>and the cultures/languages of Scotland, England and Wales - in addition to >>the institutions that were, to some degree, democratic. > >Hmm. Sounds kinda like what England did to Ireland. Sounds kinda like what >the Soviets did to any territory they got their hands on. > >I'm not sure how realistic this worst case nightmare fantasy is, but it is >certainly no worse than what most Germans expected to suffer if they were >over-run by Stalin. Remember, it was in the context of the war with Stalin >that these Eastern massacres were commited (The US had not even entered the >War yet). The Nazis totally demonized the Soviets and were in total terror of >them as well (not without reason). In the final stages of the war, after >Hitler's suicide, his successor (Admiral Doenitz, I believe) did his best to >ensure that the inevitable surrender brought as many troops as possible into >Western rather than Soviet hands. He was only partially successful, because >the Allied "Unconditional Surrender" policy required that he surrender to all 3 >Allied powers simultaneously, but he did his best. > >>Had Germany lost what was intended, and what happened, was the dismantling >>of the Nazi state. > >It has been my understanding that the callous practices of the advancing Soviet >Army resulted in the deaths of about 2 million German civilians. Stalin's >plans for his portion of defeated Germany were extremely draconian, and >resulted in additional widespread starvation that was even worse than that >suffered in the Western sections. Allied plans were draconian as well, but >Stalin's was far worse. Cold war considerations caused both sides to be far >less draconian than they had originally intended, in order to gain at least >some support from the populace so it could serve as a bullwark against the >opposing superpower. > >As far as the SS are concerned (and it is them we are talking about) they could >be expected to be treated far worse than the general population. It was by no >means unreasonable for them to expect they would be summarily executed in the >event of defeat, particularly by the Soviets. > >Your arguments also make a very odd assumption. You assume that the Germans >knew that we were the Good guys (and that they were the Bad guys), and that >therefore had confidence that we would treat them with equanimity and justice >on their defeat. A little thought and consideration should show how >unrealistic this assumption is. > >[I have an opportunity to mention Tokien at this point: I thought it was a >very realistic touch when, at the end of the battle of Helm's Deep, the >opposing humans are shocked and surprised by the mercy shown them by the forces >of Rohan. Tolkien had enough imagination to realize that perspectives vary >wildly.] > >>Faced with such anhilliation, the actions of the British air-force are >>better understood, but NOT excusable. > >I want to point out once again what I have said elsewhere. The "fear of >anihilation" defense is totally inapplicable to the Allied aerial massacres, >the worst of which took place extremely late in the war at a point when there >was absolutely no chance whatsoever of victory by Germany or Japan. If it can >be stretched this far, it can be stretched more easily to cover German fear of >Stalin at the time of Operation Barbarossa. It is, of course, a stretch in >either case. > >>>I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, >>>because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we >>>wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at >>>all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against >>>"fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. >> >>Again, I think though, that you are allowing no relativism into this. >>Britain's actions in the war can be seen as akin to the temptation given to >>Boromir. for fear of anhilliation, he was willing to use the power of the >>one Ring. This does not mean that Boromir equates with Sauron. > >I do not want to underestimate the forces of temptation, the pressures or >madness, or the limits of the human will when dealing with these forces. It is >well known that the pressures and horrors of war can drive one to madness (even >if one is not mad already), so they can certainly drive one to murder. My >concern is with condemning the sin. Judging the sinner is a task I leave to >God. > >What I don't understand is why you feel such considerations are more applicable >to British than they are to Germans. > >>The danger Tolkien proposed was that in using such methods, we would win the >>war but emerge as another "Nazi" state in all but name (as in the Soviet >>Union). > >I hope this does not create another huge debate, but I suspect that this has >already happened to a certain degree. I believe that the United States damaged >itself morally and became significantly more corrupt in the process of winning >World War II. I am deeply afraid that this process will continue, particularly >now that the US is unchallanged as the only Superpower. It is the nature of >unopposed power to result in tyrrany. > >[snip something where we "agree to disagree"] > >>>Murder is always easier if you can delude yourself into believing that your >>>victims are not truly human. That is why racism is so dangerous, and why it >>>deserves to be abhorred and rejected. It does not therefore follow that it >is >>>more moral to murder people if you do so without such delusions. I would >guess >>>that, if anything, that only increases your guilt. >> >>That's true. but not all those who murder are comparably evil, and to draw >>major dinstinction does not remove the evil of murder. > >Right. But as I said before, my intent is to condemn the sin, not the sinner. >As a Christian, I consider it myself bound NOT to judge the souls of others, >and this applies as much to those responsible for the Eastern massacres as it >does to the Allied firebombings. > >And you still have not drawn a consideration in favor of the Bombings that >could not be equally applied to the Einsatzgruppen. > >Let me paraphrase Tolkien: We may not judge the souls of others, because we >do not know their limits or their breaking point. At the same time, we must >hold ourselves to the highest standards, for we do not know our own limits, and > if we hold ourselves to anything less, we will surely fall short. [Can anyone >find the letter, and the exact words?] > >Let us not now equivocate about the allied bombings, while we are sit safely at >our computer screens in time of peace. Let us condemn those crimes utterly >(but not the criminal), so that we may have a clear moral compass. If we >cannot do that now, from the safety of our armchairs, then how can we possibly >hope to hold firm when our souls are seared by the fires of war, or minds >maddened by fear, and our perspective warped by propaganda and misinformation? >Let us not equivocate about the fact that it is wrong to murder innocent >civilians. > >-- John Whelan ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:44:32 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 182 Message-ID: <87s253$fab$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000209032749.21292.00002031@nso-fj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-27.depacon.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 950111203 15691 62.136.88.27 (9 Feb 2000 15:46:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2000 15:46:43 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14038 (major snippage indulged in - do feel free to bring back anything taken out) Nystulc wrote in message <20000209032749.21292.00002031@nso-fj.news.cs.com>... >In article <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" > writes: > >>I think your history of WWII is slightly flawed. > >I won't deny that. My knowledge is extremely inadequate in a whole host of >areas. In this case, we are discussing a side issue not central to my main >argument, so I will not find it painful if I have to concede a point. > >I won't contest any of this. But I have a question for you (and I honestly >don't know the answer). Did the German's have an actual policy of targeting >civilians specifically during the Battle of Britain, or did this develop much >later? I know that there was much civilian death, but this can easily occur >even when the planned target is a military one. > >I'll accept the evidence either way. I have absolutely no reason to suspect >the Nazis of moral scruples. Sadly no evidence to hand. from what I remember from Alan Bullocks "Hitler: A Study In Tyranny" it details that the Battle of Britain was intended by Hitler to galvanise existing support against a war - and major cities were targetted for major impact. the intention being to invoke fear in civilians. It was a major tactical blunder by Hitler, it united the UK against him in a way it just wasn't before. >>I don't think the above stands at all. Had Britain lost the war, Hitler >>planned to completely destroy even the notion of the British nation state, >>and the cultures/languages of Scotland, England and Wales - in addition to >>the institutions that were, to some degree, democratic. > >Hmm. Sounds kinda like what England did to Ireland. England? At least get it half-right and say Britain. Moreover, even that isn't wholly caparable. > Sounds kinda like what >the Soviets did to any territory they got their hands on. Hardly. Read what hitler intended to do to the defeated slav people. See what happened in occupied Eastern Germany. I'm not saying Eastern Germany was a bed of Roses but there is no comparison. >>Had Germany lost what was intended, and what happened, was the dismantling >>of the Nazi state. >Your arguments also make a very odd assumption. You assume that the Germans >knew that we were the Good guys (and that they were the Bad guys), and that >therefore had confidence that we would treat them with equanimity and justice >on their defeat. A little thought and consideration should show how >unrealistic this assumption is. Germany started and was fighting a war of anhilliation. the central credo of Hitlers doctrine was you started a war, you won, and you destroyed the culture and state of the loser as a sign you had won. These ideas are advocated by Hitler as far back as Mein Kampf - well before the war. As a notion, even then, it was seen as morally repugnant by many Germans - and actually admired in many other countries, although thankfully not by the people who were in charge. Germans working, even fighting for Germany are no less capable of understanding the immoral heart of Nazi philosphy then people in the UK were. That a desperate Nazi command made frequent (and to many Germans unconvincing) attempts to tell the Germans if they lost they would be anhilliated - does not mean it was widely believed - after all many Germans knew what the allied nations had been like before the war. >[I have an opportunity to mention Tokien at this point: I thought it was a >very realistic touch when, at the end of the battle of Helm's Deep, the >opposing humans are shocked and surprised by the mercy shown them by the forces >of Rohan. Tolkien had enough imagination to realize that perspectives vary >wildly.] This is also touched upon in the way some of the eastern men fought on after Saurons fall. not because they were wicked, but they had been so convinced by Sauron of Gondors wickedness (not least by past Numernorean transgressions) that they fought as heroically as many of the main characters are shown as doing. >>Faced with such anhilliation, the actions of the British air-force are >>better understood, but NOT excusable. > >I want to point out once again what I have said elsewhere. The "fear of >anihilation" defense is totally inapplicable to the Allied aerial massacres, >the worst of which took place extremely late in the war at a point when there >was absolutely no chance whatsoever of victory by Germany or Japan. If it can >be stretched this far, it can be stretched more easily to cover German fear of >Stalin at the time of Operation Barbarossa. It is, of course, a stretch in >either case. you are looking, again, with the benefit of hindsight. It is wrong to say people knew there was no chance of Germany winning the War at this point. Many believed that the soviet union were bound to lose after Hitlers initial blitzkrieg. >>>I don't understand your point about "democracy". You seem to be saying that, >>>because we are the "good guys" we are therefore entitled to do anything we >>>wish. To my mind, such thinking only proves that we are not "good guys" at >>>all. It would be good to once again call to mind Tolkien's warning against >>>"fighting Hitler with Hitler's Ring", and all that that implies. >> >>Again, I think though, that you are allowing no relativism into this. >>Britain's actions in the war can be seen as akin to the temptation given to >>Boromir. for fear of anhilliation, he was willing to use the power of the >>one Ring. This does not mean that Boromir equates with Sauron. > >I do not want to underestimate the forces of temptation, the pressures or >madness, or the limits of the human will when dealing with these forces. It is >well known that the pressures and horrors of war can drive one to madness (even >if one is not mad already), so they can certainly drive one to murder. My >concern is with condemning the sin. Judging the sinner is a task I leave to >God. But, you give ground if you believe a judgement CAN be made - even if you do not believe you are in a position to make it. I am merely saying that part of that judgement is a moral relativism - that those who murdered to defend a Nazi state from anhilliation are not the same as those who murdered to defend a democracy from anhilliation. >What I don't understand is why you feel such considerations are more applicable >to British than they are to Germans. There is no racist angle to this. But you seem incapable of allowing Germans the right to see Nazism and Hitlers Nazi state as morally bankrupt. >Let us not now equivocate about the allied bombings, while we are sit safely at >our computer screens in time of peace. Let us condemn those crimes utterly >(but not the criminal), so that we may have a clear moral compass. If we >cannot do that now, from the safety of our armchairs, then how can we possibly >hope to hold firm when our souls are seared by the fires of war, or minds >maddened by fear, and our perspective warped by propaganda and misinformation? >Let us not equivocate about the fact that it is wrong to murder innocent >civilians. Conversely though, I believe it dangerous to assert too much from peacetime that was not obvious to many of the people making decisions then. The carpet-bombing of German cities was a terrible crime, but I do not envy the people who in war time have to make decisions relating to murder. Al ###### From: Florian Voigts Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:18:24 +0100 Organization: University of Clausthal-Zellerfeld / Institute for Physiks Lines: 59 Message-ID: <38A1AF6F.C1DADBDE@tu-clausthal.de> References: <20000209032752.21292.00002035@nso-fj.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: florian.heim7.tu-clausthal.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!uucp.muenster.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.rz.tu-clausthal.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14085 Yes, thank you! That is a really good recap of our discussion. Let me add some notes: I think we all agree, that the killing of thousands of civilians is mass-murder, even during wartime. And mass-murder is massmurder, whatever the reason is. And there is no justification for mass-murder. So both the aerial massacres of the Allies in Dresden or Hamburg and the murder of millions of Jews, Slaws etc. by the SS were mass-murders. But I think there is one distinction and something to be aware of: The bombing of German cities had the aim of winning a war aigainst a criminal regime and resulted in the rescue of Europe, specially of Germany and Austria, from the Nazis. The Nazi murders had the aim of eradicating a whole nation. No one in history has tried this before. And THIS is it, what makes the Holocaust a very special crime, the "crime of the century". And this it what puts a heavy guilt on German shoulders. But be careful: Murder is murder and so both some German people and some people from the Allies are guilty. Guilt is always individual, so you can´t blame a whole nation for this, especially as so many years and two generations have passed. But it is a strong responsibility for further German politics. And Germany is very careful about this historical responsibility, believe me. Someone said, he though that 70% of the Germans would justify the massacres of the SS. This really isn´t true. For example, the German constituiton is very exactly about this. Nationalism and the justifying of the Holocaust etc. are put unter heavy punishment. A special federal authority, the "Verfassungsschutz" only deals with this. The Germans have learned their lesson from history and we all only can hope that evereybody did also (just look at Austria and Haider!). But you are right, whem you say that many Germans were guilty of murder and that the big majority of the Germans was guilty of supporting a criminal regime and of betraying the democratic order of the Republic of Germany, as they elected Hitler. But these poeple have died to 90% by now. And the Allies? Many people think, that the bombing of German cities and the mass-murder on German civilians was justified. But murder is murder and having a "reason" for it doesn´t justify it. Morally, and only morally, the bombing of Germany and the Holocaust is the same bad, criminal thing. I have made clear the big distinction above. What is interesting is, that only very few people talk about this guilt of some poeple from the Allies. Someone said, history is written by victor´s. In this case, this is surely true. That doesn´t mean, that the history should we written new, at least I´m no revisionist. But is is a fact, that some event´s in WWII are discussed very often, and some are kept away. I´m sure, some people will refuse to believe what I said in the last paragraph. If you ask me, I think the bombing of German civilians was a crime, but I´m grateful to every Allied soldier for what he did. I wouldn´t want to live under a Nazi regime now. Germany is now a democratic republic and it´s time to accept it as an equal member of world community (at least, most people do that already). But the time, that Germany forgets his historical crimes will come never. Florian Florian Voigts • Germany • florian.voigts@heim7.tu-clausthal.de • http://www.heim7.tu-clausthal.de/~fvoigts/ ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <87kd12$to5$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <20000209032749.21292.00002031@nso-fj.news.cs.com> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:14:20 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.223.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 950134741 195.82.223.162 (Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:19:01 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 23:19:01 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14089 Nystulc skrev i en nyhedsmeddelelse:20000209032749.21292.00002031@nso-fj.news.cs.com... > I won't contest any of this. But I have a question for you (and I > honestly don't know the answer). Did the German's have an > actual policy of targeting civilians specifically during the Battle > of Britain, or did this develop much later? I know that there > was much civilian death, but this can easily occur even when > the planned target is a military one. As for the Battle of Britain, the targets chosen by the Luftwaffe were initially purely military. Hitler, possibly hoping for a separate peace with Britain, ordered no 'bombing of civilian targets'. Quite unlike the terror bombings already perpetrated by the Luftwaffe elsewhere, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread: Guernica, Warsaw. But especially the bombings of RAF airfields were wearing the RAF Fighter Command down. Then some German bombers misnavigated, dropping some bombs over London. Churchill ordered a retaliatory strike against Berlin, and a small number of Berliners died. I may be wrong, but I think that there were two such retaliatory strikes. Hitler had a fit, because the Nazi top had assured the German people that no bombs could possibly fall on German cities. So he ordered that the focus be shifted to civilian targets, in revenge (Hitler seemed very keen on revenge) and to bomb the fight out of the British. The result was twofold. First off the bombing galvanized the British resolve to fight. Second off the *military* targets got a respite, and as autumn fell, Operation Sealion ceased to be an option, and Britain was saved - for the time being. The Battle of the Atlantic threatened again to bring Britain down. I have seen speculation that Churchill, knowing the strain that the Fighter Command was labouring under, foresaw that Hitler would order the Luftwaffe to focus on civilian targets in the case of a British bombing of civilian targets in Berlin. And that this was precisely why he ordered those strikes. But if this were so, he could never have admitted it, then or later. Jon L. Beck. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:50:09 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8864asogksi4p581fjdba3u3pife1t49pm@4ax.com> References: <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389EA9B9.2BA4A2F4@erols.com> <389FDEA2.527763F3@cable.A2000.nl> <38A1265E.E5B3F920@cable.A2000.nl> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.netcrusader.net!209.249.97.47!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!rQdQ!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14101 On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:33:34 +0100, "Renée Vink" wrote: >Generally speaking, even if what you say is valid, the year 1946 doesn't make much >sense to me. Many Nazi's had children after 1946. Children who were members of the >Hitlerjugend (and therefore most likely affected by propaganda) may have married >in the fifties, etc. etc. The German `Vergangenheitsbewältigung', the >confrontation and coming to terms with the past did not start immediately after >WWII but much later - and there's no telling whether it was succesful. in any >individual case. So you can't know who was adversely affected and who wasn't. My God! You're right! Let's, in our mercy, move the date to 1964! Or 2064!!! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Question _your own_ authority. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:01:42 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6irdassuce4hcpiv7nd22idblvl6l0e5il@4ax.com> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.21.3a Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 13 Feb 2000 17:55:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14294 the softrat wrote: >Many, many of Native Americans were killed by diseases for which they >had no tolerance. Others starved as their way of life proved >economically unable to compete. Some died in warfare with the people >and government of the United States. The United States did act like a >bully, and the Native Americans were not wanted. This in no way >compares with the deliberate slaughter, sanctioned by German >government policy and conducted with the financial aid of the German >government, of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and 'mental >defectives'. At no time were 'experiments', medical or otherwise >conducted upon the Native American people. There is no comparison! I suggest that giving the Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox (to which they had no resistance) must be counted as "medical experimentation". ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:01:44 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.21.3a Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 13 Feb 2000 17:55:35 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14290 Florian Voigts wrote: >What I wanted to say: The USA killed many Indians to get their land. It was of >course not the primary aim to kill most of them or something like that. But fakt >is, that all Indians lost their culture and their way of life as free nations. >Some of the now live in the US-society, some live in reservations. But the native >Indian nations are gone. >I just tried to make clear the dimensions. It might help to consider the difference in available technology. No, the USA never did industrial-scale mass murder of Native Americans, but most of the warfare and conflict occurred before such mass murder was technologically feasible. Just as, for example, Nero's Rome occurred before technology allowed for a totalitarian regime over an extended area. The spirit was willing, but the technology did not exist. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:02:37 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3cqdas8sd7nsnfndihrofjtd6shtoupo2s@4ax.com> References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.21.3a Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 13 Feb 2000 17:56:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14238 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >Said pperson@ix.netcom.com (Paul S. Person) in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>If the Axis had won, such Slavs might have found that, having outlived >>their usefulness, their time in the camps had come. >> >>Not to mention the Italians and the Japanese. > >You might want to look up the novella "Two Dooms" by C.M. >Kornbluth, in which the main character travels to a time a few >decades after the Axis won the war. > >I don't think it's a book on its own, but it was anthologized in >/The Best of C.M. Kornbluth/ and others. Or _The Man in the High Castle_ (Phillip D. Dick), which is about an author of alternative fiction living in a world where the Axis won but writing about a world where the Axis lost. That is probably what I was thinking of, although it's been decades since I read it. ###### From: "db" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de> Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:25:44 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.189.244.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 950605423 212.189.244.5 (Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:03:43 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:03:43 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!windy.ip.versatel.net!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14336 Paul S. Person wrote in message > It might help to consider the difference in available technology. No, > the USA never did industrial-scale mass murder of Native Americans, > but most of the warfare and conflict occurred before such mass murder > was technologically feasible. Just as, for example, Nero's Rome > occurred before technology allowed for a totalitarian regime over an > extended area. The spirit was willing, but the technology did not > exist. I tend to agree with this. Attacking entire communities with artillery, sending whole peoples to area's where only amoeba manage to scratch together an existence, it shows a definite willingness to be rid of the native Americans at any cost. db ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: "Fighting Hitler with Hitler's ring"? Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:17:09 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <48Fj4.1050$5o3.3000@nntpserver.swip.net> <20000130030305.19826.00000284@nso-fp.news.cs.com> <3895303F.53C3@theonering.net> <2tcr9s8c33d0r90fuac8athifnvn3pispv@4ax.com> <389E0FE7.4DEB188E@tu-clausthal.de> <389E836C.89FB325E@tu-clausthal.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.20.8b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 20 Feb 2000 17:11:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:14590 "db" wrote: > >Paul S. Person wrote in message > It might help to >consider the difference in available technology. No, >> the USA never did industrial-scale mass murder of Native Americans, >> but most of the warfare and conflict occurred before such mass murder >> was technologically feasible. Just as, for example, Nero's Rome >> occurred before technology allowed for a totalitarian regime over an >> extended area. The spirit was willing, but the technology did not >> exist. > >I tend to agree with this. Attacking entire communities with artillery, >sending whole peoples to area's where only amoeba manage to scratch together >an existence, it shows a definite willingness to be rid of the native >Americans at any cost. I just want to add something I should have made clear for our German friend: This does not mean that Germany should stop guarding itself against a repetition of the Nazi horror. It means, rather, that _every nation_ must guard itself against recreating it.