From: jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: NT: So what are you? Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Dec 1999 02:51:52 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Here's my question... Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to those on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, why? Human? Wizard? Elf? Dwarf? Hobbit? Ent? Beorning? Gollum?? Orc??? Troll???? Balrog????? Balrog with w****????? I'll start it off. I'm a hobbit. I am clearly not human, because human ways seem a bit strange to me. I am no wizard, nor an elf nor dwarf, though I would be proud to have friends amongst any of them. My family is very down to earth. We like to laugh and enjoy a good meal as much as anybody. Everyone in my family appears to me to be friendly, however we are somewhat private, keeping amongst ourselves, and we are shy of the big people. For the most part my family are very Hobbit-like, Fallohydes if you like. However we must have some Took blood throughout, because on all sides we have the occasional Tookish person. I am proud to wave my Took flag high. My brother, though we have the same parents, is much more of a normal Hobbit, though he is also taller than average (we both enjoy the occasional pipeweed). My parents are quite Hobbit-like. However my first cousins and their mother, and her family, seem to be quite Tookish (and thus highly regarded by me, but less-so by my immediate family). For what its worth, if I do get my hands on a magic ring, I do not think I would abuse it, and I would if I must safely deposit in the cracks of doom. And, in case you were wondering, I do have fur on my toes : ) Mike D. "I said find yourself first and then your tool. Find yourself first, don't you be no fool." - J. Hendrix "Message to the Universe" ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: NT: So what are you? Message-ID: References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 16 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 18:53:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.183 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 946147999 208.170.95.183 (Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:53:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:53:19 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnews.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com>, jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) wrote: > For the most part my family are very Hobbit-like, Fallohydes if you like. > However we must have some Took blood throughout, because on all sides we have > the occasional Tookish person. I am proud to wave my Took flag high. But it's the Tooks which are about the most Fallohidish family in the Shire, all of these crazy Tooks going off on adventures and never returning, like as not. The good, steady, typically hobbitish hobbits are found in the old Harfoot families like the Bagginses and the Bolgers; honest, stay-at-home types who know how to turn a penny into a pound, as the saying is, if you take my meaning. DS ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> Subject: Re: So what are you? Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:29:25 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.38.215 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 946146478 212.151.38.215 (Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:27:58 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:27:58 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-MUC.ecrc.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Jiminut hath written: >Here's my question... > Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to those >on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, why? > Human? Wizard? Elf? Dwarf? Hobbit? Ent? Beorning? Gollum?? Orc??? >Troll???? Balrog????? Balrog with w****????? I have been considering this question for several hours, and I can still not come up with anything more original than a Hobbit either. I am rather comfortable, like good food, can put in good day's work, usually prefer the everyday to what the Gaffer called "trapessing in foreign parts", though a moderate amount of trapessing without any great dangers can be nice at times - and I, too have some hairs on my toes. Öjevind ”The marriage between Chewbacca and Leia is off because they discovered Leia is Chewbacca’s mom. I don’t get it.” (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 20:53:42 -0500 Organization: Shire YuleLogs, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38657520.262DE962@erols.com> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> <3865B539.2491@yahoo.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: qL893sZh+6giUA9C5DuWCw1urW5Tp8PuySjfZRc7bAo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Dec 1999 02:49:27 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail > > > Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to > > those > > >on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, > > why? > > > Human? Wizard? Elf? Dwarf? Hobbit? Ent? Beorning? Gollum?? Orc??? > > >Troll???? Balrog????? Balrog with w****????? I had no idea this list was so full of Hobbits! I myself am a Wizard. I am old, grumpy, smoke a pipe, and possess great wisdom as well as power enough to battle Balrogs. I also possess a staff (but it's just a prop). I haven't mentioned any of this before out of modesty. Now you know. So I hope all you silly Hobbits treat me with the proper respect. I'm good for much more than fireworks! -- -- FotW the Grey Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Jereeza Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 22:27:05 -0800 Organization: HiNet Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3865B539.2491@yahoo.com> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar3-p28-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 946156887 19188 195.29.237.28 (25 Dec 1999 21:21:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Dec 1999 21:21:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Öjevind Lång wrote: > > Jiminut hath written: > > >Here's my question... > > Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to > those > >on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, > why? > > Human? Wizard? Elf? Dwarf? Hobbit? Ent? Beorning? Gollum?? Orc??? > >Troll???? Balrog????? Balrog with w****????? > > I have been considering this question for several hours, and I can still not > come up with anything more original than a Hobbit either. I am rather > comfortable, like good food, can put in good day's work, usually prefer the > everyday to what the Gaffer called "trapessing in foreign parts", though a > moderate amount of trapessing without any great dangers can be nice at > times - and I, too have some hairs on my toes. Definitely a hobbit, me. So maybe my foot hairs have gone by eons of evolution, but I can't be mistaken for anything else if Tolkien's description of the race at the beginning of the books is anything near the truth. -- jereeza(at)yahoo.com http://www.angelfire.com/ri/jereeza "Human actions do not merit hell or heaven." - J. L. Borges ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: 26 Dec 1999 23:27:37 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 52 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6ur9g9nxra.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> <3865B539.2491@yahoo.com> <38657520.262DE962@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Flame of the West writes: > > > > > Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to > > > those > > > >on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, > > > why? Interesting challenge. > I had no idea this list was so full of Hobbits! I am not at all surprosed at this. Just look at the pro-Frodo/Sam response in threads such as "Who is the Hero" type. We have a lot of hobbit lovers here. And love comes often from likelyness. Actually there have been a few "I like the hobbits the best" posts. > I myself am a Wizard. I am old, grumpy, smoke a pipe, and possess great That one fits you as far as I know you from here. > of modesty. Now you know. So I hope all you silly Hobbits treat me with > the proper respect. I'm good for much more than fireworks! Well as an Elf myself I doubt I will get much respect (we seem to be strongly disliked here). Why an Elf? Fairly quiet type. A bit "above earth" mentality. Strongly interested in metaphysical stuff. Never really at home with the material world (particularly the economics bit). Like all that is nice and long-lasting. A bit conservative (when coming to daring and new stuff, not to political views). Generally socialist attitudes. Like history (including "fake" history like Silmarillion). Like do-it-yourself. Play an Elf in RPG and LARP. Given like for technology and lack of aggression I am most likely an Noldo Avari. Actually fairly large (both height and unfortunately width). Long hair on head an little hair anywhere else. Actually slightly pointed ears. > Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. Great sig. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:07:35 -0500 Organization: Rohan OnLine Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3866ADBC.B6224A5C@erols.com> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: hdoBS9QqDmCBk5QdmAnou3tJFvwzk2FCxMbJwftfyAg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 1999 02:50:08 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Jiminut wrote: > Here's my question... > Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to > those > on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, > why? > Human? Wizard? Elf? Dwarf? Hobbit? Ent? Beorning? Gollum?? Orc??? > Troll???? Balrog????? Balrog with w****????? Elf, maybe. A Noldo-Teleri, perhaps. I love music, am sort-of learning to play the piano, and like making up my own dances, but I dance when nobody's watching, and only to music I like, preferably Celticish. I am somewhat inventive, like making things. I have a good memory for things that I enjoy. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Ewoks are Hobbits! ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 22:21:54 -0500 Organization: Valinorean Embassy Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3866DB42.FBF9BF30@erols.com> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> <3865B539.2491@yahoo.com> <38657520.262DE962@erols.com> <6ur9g9nxra.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ISBZbMpi0ua2nTmF1vCc5DGwIZrzc3PP0A/T4BU2/8w= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 1999 04:54:27 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > > I had no idea this list was so full of Hobbits! > > I am not at all surprosed at this. Just look at the pro-Frodo/Sam > response in threads such as "Who is the Hero" type. We have a lot of > hobbit lovers here. And love comes often from likelyness. And of course, that's the way JRRT meant it to be. His "Men" were heroic and/or tragic men and women as in the legends of old; the ordinary folk he portrayed as Hobbits. > Given like for technology and lack of aggression I am most likely an > Noldo Avari. I didn't know there was such a thing as a Noldo Avari. Didn't all the Noldo go West (of course some coming back)? > Great sig. Thank you. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: 27 Dec 1999 23:19:04 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 33 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uvh5k6n8n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> <3865B539.2491@yahoo.com> <38657520.262DE962@erols.com> <6ur9g9nxra.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3866DB42.FBF9BF30@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Flame of the West writes: > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > Given like for technology and lack of aggression I am most likely an > > Noldo Avari. > > I didn't know there was such a thing as a Noldo Avari. Didn't > all the Noldo go West (of course some coming back)? I remember reading an text claiming that only the Vanyar went to 100% to Aman, and that both the Noldor and the Teleri split themselves (with over 50% Noldor and below 50% Teleri going to Aman IIRC). IIRC that was in the Karen Fonstad atlas (which I once borrowed, so I do not have it any more and cannot look up the passage), mentioned alongside one map of the migration of the Elves. Ah, here is something: Silmarillion, chapter "Of the coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor": Then befell the first sundering of the Elves. For the kindred of Ingwe, and most part of the kindreds of Finwe and Elwe, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart ... known ever after as Eldar... . But many refused the summons ... and these are the Avari... . So the Avari were Noldor (Finwes kindred) and Teleri (Elwes kindred). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: oscwr@emory.edu (Cal Rice) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: 28 Dec 1999 18:43:53 -0500 Organization: Emory University Lines: 5 Message-ID: <84bhvp$j4l$1@jet.cc.emory.edu> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> <3866ADBC.B6224A5C@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jet.cc.emory.edu X-Trace: lendl.cc.emory.edu 946424634 16035 170.140.1.27 (28 Dec 1999 23:43:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@emory.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 1999 23:43:54 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.atl!lendl.cc.emory.edu!emory.edu!not-for-mail I'm Deagol. I find things and then others take them away from me. -cr -- ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: So what are you? Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:47:26 -0500 Organization: Eriador OnLine Lines: 34 Message-ID: <38695A1B.8B4C89AE@erols.com> References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> <3865B539.2491@yahoo.com> <38657520.262DE962@erols.com> <6ur9g9nxra.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3866DB42.FBF9BF30@erols.com> <6uvh5k6n8n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: seMgOoQ3RnUSI6bqtr/BxMGtOsnj3NwjYLFygvOcdQA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 1999 01:26:29 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.atl!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > > I didn't know there was such a thing as a Noldo Avari. Didn't > > all the Noldo go West (of course some coming back)? > > Then befell the first sundering of the Elves. For the kindred of > Ingwe, and most part of the kindreds of Finwe and Elwe, were swayed > by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart ... known > ever after as Eldar... . But many refused the summons ... and these > are the Avari... . > > So the Avari were Noldor (Finwes kindred) and Teleri (Elwes kindred). Ah. Thanx for the clarification. Looking over that chapter, I see why I was confused. In one paragraph, Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë are chosen as ambassadors by Oromë, and it is mentioned that they thereafter became kings; the next paragraph, *all* the Elves in the world belong to the "kindred" of one of the three. At first glance, that makes no sense: how can all of the Elves suddenly become related to those three just because they visited Valinor? But the answer, I think, is found in the Cuivienyarna legend at the end of WotJ. In light of that legend, it appears that there were three tribes ("kindreds") even before the summons of the Valar, and that Oromë quite logically selected one ambassador from each tribe. After they returned from their visit to Valinor, each was accepted as king of his tribe. This, of course, is not obvious from the SIlm. alone. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com> Subject: Re: So what are you? Lines: 74 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 22:03:41 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.49.68 X-Trace: news3.mia 946436715 209.214.49.68 (Tue, 28 Dec 1999 22:05:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 22:05:15 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.mia.POSTED!not-for-mail I do not now, nor have I understood anyone's fascination with Hobbits. To me, there was nothing even remotely interesting about them as a "race". The problem, for me, with identifying myself with a race in Tolkien's world (besides the fact that we are all quite clearly humans) is that he had so many outstanding individuals that represented some of the best, and worst of the races. If I'm an elf, please let me be Fingolfin, Finrod, Ecthelion, or Beleg. If I'm a dwarf, let me be Dain Ironfoot, Gimli, Telchar, or Balin. If I'm a hobbit, I guess I would settle for Sam or Pippin, but the preference would be the Old Took. If I'm a man, then I want to be Hurin, or possibly Isildur. Or a guy from Tennessee who just got lucky and walked between the right trees in the woods and ended up in another world. A group of elves, the Noldor or the Sindar. A group of men, definetly of Dor-Lomin. A house of dwarves, Durin, who else? "Jiminut" wrote in message news:19991224215152.24542.00000973@ng-fw1.aol.com... > Here's my question... > Limiting yourself to the known types of creatures in LOTR, perhaps to those > on the Ent's list, which do you think you most resemble... and of course, why? > Human? Wizard? Elf? Dwarf? Hobbit? Ent? Beorning? Gollum?? Orc??? > Troll???? Balrog????? Balrog with w****????? > > > I'll start it off. I'm a hobbit. I am clearly not human, because human ways > seem a bit strange to me. I am no wizard, nor an elf nor dwarf, though I would > be proud to have friends amongst any of them. > > My family is very down to earth. We like to laugh and enjoy a good meal as > much as anybody. Everyone in my family appears to me to be friendly, however > we are somewhat private, keeping amongst ourselves, and we are shy of the big > people. > > For the most part my family are very Hobbit-like, Fallohydes if you like. > However we must have some Took blood throughout, because on all sides we have > the occasional Tookish person. I am proud to wave my Took flag high. My > brother, though we have the same parents, is much more of a normal Hobbit, > though he is also taller than average (we both enjoy the occasional pipeweed). > My parents are quite Hobbit-like. However my first cousins and their mother, > and her family, seem to be quite Tookish (and thus highly regarded by me, but > less-so by my immediate family). > > For what its worth, if I do get my hands on a magic ring, I do not think I > would abuse it, and I would if I must safely deposit in the cracks of doom. > > And, in case you were wondering, I do have fur on my toes : ) > > Mike D. > > > "I said find yourself first and then your tool. > Find yourself first, don't you be no fool." > - J. Hendrix "Message to the Universe"