From: g.buurman@hccnet.nl (Freaksaus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Hobbits vs Halflings Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:46:51 GMT Organization: Hobby Computer Club News Network Lines: 12 Message-ID: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: uds79-116.dial.hccnet.nl X-Trace: news.hccnet.nl 945784221 18089 193.173.116.79 (21 Dec 1999 13:50:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hccnet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1999 13:50:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news.hccnet.nl!not-for-mail Because I still haven't quite figured out how to use Deja I don't know if this is been duscussed here before. I didn't find anything about it in a FAQ. Oh well, here goes: What exactly is the difference between the hobbits from Tolkien and the halflings used in roleplay and other fantasy books. Are they larger, furrier, do they have w*ngs?? Freek ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 20 Date: 21 Dec 1999 12:30:26 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945808230 198.172.26.10 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:30:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:30:30 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:46:51 GMT, Freaksaus wrote: >Because I still haven't quite figured out how to use Deja I don't know >if this is been duscussed here before. > >I didn't find anything about it in a FAQ. >Oh well, here goes: > >What exactly is the difference between the hobbits from Tolkien and >the halflings used in roleplay and other fantasy books. The name 'halfling' isn't subject to copyright. The original edition of D&D (or maybe it was AD&D) used the term 'hobbit' for a race that happened to be exactly like Tolkien's Hobbits. One of Christopher Tolkien's lawyers apparently found out about this (and several other legally questionable things in the manuals, such as, IIRC, 'Balrogs') and got really irritated. The Tolkien Estate pressured TSR to remove most of the really blatant copyright violations. In later editions, the hobbit-like creatures were renamed 'halflings'. (The Balrogs were renamed 'Class VI Demons'.) ###### From: urban@netcom.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Date: 21 Dec 1999 14:46:38 GMT Organization: NETCOM / MindSpring Enterprises, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <83o3se$nvt$1@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net> References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.73 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!urban In article <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl>, Freaksaus wrote: >Because I still haven't quite figured out how to use Deja I don't know >if this is been duscussed here before. > >I didn't find anything about it in a FAQ. >Oh well, here goes: > >What exactly is the difference between the hobbits from Tolkien and >the halflings used in roleplay and other fantasy books. > >Are they larger, furrier, do they have w*ngs?? > >Freek If you publish something about "hobbits", you need permission from the Tolkien estate. If you publish something about "halflings", you do not. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 26 Date: 21 Dec 1999 15:13:47 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945818032 198.172.26.10 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:13:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:13:52 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:12:37 GMT, David Salo wrote: > Individual words and names are not "subject to copyright". Again, I ITIM 'trademark', though I don't think Tolkien ever trademarked any of his names. The thought of seeing "Frodo(TM)" written on anything is really quite horrifying. >have to recommend that anyone who is legally interested in copyright >questions consult a lawyer. If you are an American you may also consider >examining the text of U.S. copyright law I will not attempt to interpret >that law here. I may however point out that "halfling" is just as much >J.R.R. Tolkien's creation as "hobbit" is. Since the dispute between TSR Yes, but as you say, this was a private settlement, not a court decision. The Estate may have been less offended by the use of 'halfling' because - It's a strictly descriptive term, and thus not really a 'name'. - It's less recognizable. - Tolkien didn't really like the term anyway; the Hobbits never refer to themselves as 'halflings'. - Or whatever else. They didn't need a legal basis for being more flexible about 'halfling' than about 'hobbit'. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Message-ID: References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:12:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945814357 208.170.95.187 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:12:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:12:37 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > The name 'halfling' isn't subject to copyright. > > The original edition of D&D (or maybe it was AD&D) used the term 'hobbit' > for a race that happened to be exactly like Tolkien's Hobbits. One of > Christopher Tolkien's lawyers apparently found out about this (and several > other legally questionable things in the manuals, such as, IIRC, > 'Balrogs') and got really irritated. The Tolkien Estate pressured TSR to > remove most of the really blatant copyright violations. In later > editions, the hobbit-like creatures were renamed 'halflings'. (The > Balrogs were renamed 'Class VI Demons'.) Individual words and names are not "subject to copyright". Again, I have to recommend that anyone who is legally interested in copyright questions consult a lawyer. If you are an American you may also consider examining the text of U.S. copyright law I will not attempt to interpret that law here. I may however point out that "halfling" is just as much J.R.R. Tolkien's creation as "hobbit" is. Since the dispute between TSR and the Tolkien Estate was never adjudicated, it does not constitute legal precedent. DS ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83p5ii$k4_004@news.uswest.net> References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:21:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.181 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945821838 207.224.147.181 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:17:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:17:18 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > Individual words and names are not "subject to copyright". Again, I >have to recommend that anyone who is legally interested in copyright >questions consult a lawyer. If you are an American you may also consider >examining the text of U.S. copyright law I will not attempt to interpret >that law here. I may however point out that "halfling" is just as much >J.R.R. Tolkien's creation as "hobbit" is. Since the dispute between TSR >and the Tolkien Estate was never adjudicated, it does not constitute legal >precedent. Tolkien Enterprises, not the Tolkien Estate, has TRADEMARKED many names from Tolkien, including "hobbit", but not including "halfling". -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Dec 1999 03:01:13 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991221220113.01167.00000754@nso-ba.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) writes: > Individual words and names are not "subject to copyright". But couldn't "hobbit" be an exception as it was not only a term but the actual title of a book as well? (which I'm sure is copyrightable) Halflings as a mere term would not be and therefore no (legal) argument could be seen to arise from that. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83pjna$230_004@news.uswest.net> References: <19991221220113.01167.00000754@nso-ba.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:23:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.197 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945836327 207.224.149.197 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:18:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:18:47 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991221220113.01167.00000754@nso-ba.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote: >In article , dsalo@usa.net >(David Salo) writes: > >> Individual words and names are not "subject to copyright". > >But couldn't "hobbit" be an exception as it was not only a term but the actual >title of a book as well? (which I'm sure is copyrightable) Halflings as a mere >term would not be and therefore no (legal) argument could be seen to arise from >that. Expressions of ideas are copyrightable, but not names. The word "hobbit" has been trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises (which is wholly separate from the Tolkien Estate), and it is Tolkien Enterprises which has enforced trademark restrictions in the RPG community. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38609b88.139468944@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19991221220113.01167.00000754@nso-ba.aol.com> <83pjna$230_004@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 191-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:38:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945855338 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:35:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:35:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!191-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:23:06 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Expressions of ideas are copyrightable, but not names. The word "hobbit" has >been trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises (which is wholly separate from the Well, I suppose that means I can expect "Frodo(TM)" to start appearing on things slightly after the movies come out. >Tolkien Estate), and it is Tolkien Enterprises which has enforced trademark >restrictions in the RPG community. Was Tolkien Enterprises around at the time of the original D&D dispute (i.e. since TSR was founded)? I thought they were a bit more recent than that. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83q6ku$1vo_002@news.usenetserver.com> References: <19991221220113.01167.00000754@nso-ba.aol.com> <83pjna$230_004@news.uswest.net> <38609b88.139468944@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 35 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:41:03 EST Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:46:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone-l3!cyclone-l3.usenetserver.com!news4.usenetserver.com.POSTED!xenite1 In article <38609b88.139468944@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:23:06 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>Expressions of ideas are copyrightable, but not names. The word "hobbit" has >>been trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises (which is wholly separate from the > >Well, I suppose that means I can expect "Frodo(TM)" to start appearing >on things slightly after the movies come out. Frodo is a historical name. I don't believe it can be trademarked any more than Michael or Mark can be. Certainly the academic community would probably try to mount a challenge to any attempt to trademark such names. If such a trademark were issued, historians everywhere would have to pay fees for use of names in their books and papers (or at least they'd have to put in a lot of trademark notices and disclaimers). >>Tolkien Estate), and it is Tolkien Enterprises which has enforced trademark >>restrictions in the RPG community. > >Was Tolkien Enterprises around at the time of the original D&D dispute >(i.e. since TSR was founded)? I thought they were a bit more recent >than that. I don't know exactly when all this stuff happened, but Tolkien Enterprises was set up in the early 1970s. Or so I've been told. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jonmeltzer@mindspring.com (Jon Meltzer) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:28:03 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3860b5b6.2011506@news.mindspring.com> References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.0c.96 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 22 Dec 1999 11:28:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:46:51 GMT, g.buurman@hccnet.nl (Freaksaus) wrote: >Because I still haven't quite figured out how to use Deja I don't know >if this is been duscussed here before. > >I didn't find anything about it in a FAQ. >Oh well, here goes: > >What exactly is the difference between the hobbits from Tolkien and >the halflings used in roleplay and other fantasy books. > Copyright law. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:33:50 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b3.cb X-Server-Date: 23 Dec 1999 04:31:53 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsrouter.chello.at!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail With just over 12 months remaining in the millennium, dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > Individual words and names are not "subject to copyright". It is true that *titles* of works cannot be copyrighted, but distinctive characters' names are different from book titles. Under some circumstances, reusing a distinctive character name is a violation of some sort of intellectual-property law, whether it's copyright or something else. >I may however point out that "halfling" is just as much >J.R.R. Tolkien's creation as "hobbit" is. The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees with you. My copy cites "halfling", noun and adjective, as early as 1794, with the sense "not fully grown, a stripling". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: Morgion666 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Hobbits vs Halflings Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:20:06 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <83s4d3$mfq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.228.64.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Dec 23 03:20:06 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x33.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.228.64.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmorgion666 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <385eb966.21124836@news.hccnet.nl>, g.buurman@hccnet.nl (Freaksaus) wrote: > Because I still haven't quite figured out how to use Deja I don't know > if this is been duscussed here before. > > I didn't find anything about it in a FAQ. > Oh well, here goes: > > What exactly is the difference between the hobbits from Tolkien and > the halflings used in roleplay and other fantasy books. > > Are they larger, furrier, do they have w*ngs?? Lol. That's a stupid question, how the hell would the r*produce? I just wanna mention a race that is a million times better than either, but still small and funny and not taken too seriously or thought of being important: !!! K E N D E R !!! -- "There is something coming forth, a vision from the ancient times. They rape my mind as I try to resist, but I can't because I am just like them" Galder Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.