From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elven Vision Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:25:15 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.228 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 945826214 28742 12.79.56.228 (22 Dec 1999 01:30:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 1999 01:30:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail "It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly remote and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of flame." TT, The King of the Golden Hall This seems to imply that from the steps of Edoras Legolas could see Mount Doom approximately 450 miles away on the far side of the Ephel Duath. This seems like it ought to be impossible for any number of reasons (intervening barrier, curvature of the earth (which it had at that point), atmospheric interference, et cetera). Is it possible that elvish distance vision contained an element of true 'clairvoyance'? There are other examples of people in Middle Earth being able to see things 'from afar'... even without bringing the palantir and suchlike into it. It is possible that JRRT just didn't consider the obstacles to such a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' he saw these things because he was looking for them. Any comments? ###### From: gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Dec 1999 04:25:15 GMT References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991221232515.13178.00000668@ng-fa1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!portc05.blue.aol.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail My question about Elven vision is different. In the Hobbit, Bilbo and by extention Hobbits have better vision than elves. Bilbo could see the Eagles before the Elves who could just hear them. In LOTR the Elves have superior vision. Has any one else noticed this inconsistancy? Feanole aka DrWhoFru ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elven Vision Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83pled$230_010@news.uswest.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991221232515.13178.00000668@ng-fa1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 04:52:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.197 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945838090 207.224.149.197 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:48:10 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:48:10 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991221232515.13178.00000668@ng-fa1.aol.com>, gordonlew@aol.com (Gordon Nash) wrote: >My question about Elven vision is different. In the Hobbit, Bilbo and by >extention Hobbits have better vision than elves. Bilbo could see the Eagles >before the Elves who could just hear them. In LOTR the Elves have superior >vision. Has any one else noticed this inconsistancy? >Feanole aka DrWhoFru Bilbo was standing on Ravenhill when he saw the Eagles. Most of the Elves were engaged in the battle at the time, further down in the valley. The narrative does not say that the Elves near Bilbo didn't see the Eagles. The narrative says the Elves near Bilbo took up his cry and that it was carried across the valley. The many people who looked up were (apparently) down in the valley fighting the valley. They couldn't see the Eagles coming because the Lonely Mountain was in the way. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:51:32 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Message-ID: <5822-386066E4-1@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <83pled$230_010@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAp9d5pFG8IPSdSZ0Ase5FElTDpi8CFCZvNXHUvaU90vwaVU6jMdmg2oL/ Content-Disposition: Inline Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >They couldn't see the Eagles coming >because the Lonely Mountain was in the >way. Let's not forget the circumstances either. They're in the middle of a battle. In such a situation, watching the sky isn't exactly conducive to one's health. --Dave ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:33:43 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <83qk91$clb$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991221232515.13178.00000668@ng-fa1.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.235 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 945869921 12971 12.79.22.235 (22 Dec 1999 13:38:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 1999 13:38:41 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Gordon Nash wrote in message news:19991221232515.13178.00000668@ng-fa1.aol.com... > My question about Elven vision is different. In the Hobbit, Bilbo > and by extention Hobbits have better vision than elves. Bilbo > could see the Eagles before the Elves who could just hear them. I don't think this neccessarily means Bilbo could see better than the Elves, just that he was the one who saw the Eagles first... likely because he wasn't busy fighting for his life at the time. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:16:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <83r829$283$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Dec 22 19:16:30 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x40.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-x.support.nl!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Mr. Dunkerson's thought: "This seems to imply that from the steps of Edoras Legolas could see Mount Doom approximately 450 miles away on the far side of the Ephel Duath. This seems like it ought to be impossible for any number of reasons (intervening barrier, curvature of the earth (which it had at that point), atmospheric interference, et cetera). Is it possible that elvish distance vision contained an element of true 'clairvoyance'? There are other examples of people in Middle Earth being able to see things 'from afar'... even without bringing the palantir and suchlike into it. It is possible that JRRT just didn't consider the obstacles to such a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' he saw these things because he was looking for them. Any comments?" Dear Conrad, My thoughts here (for what they're worth :) ) was that Legolas saw some kind of atmospheric anomaly that 'seemed' to him to resemble Minas Tirith and Mt. Doom. I don't believe that Elves could see 400 odd miles and discern detail. Maybe Mr. Tolkien didn't think about the distances involved, as you surmised. Anyway, good question. Happy Holidays! Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Message-ID: References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:17:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945893850 208.170.95.194 (Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:17:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:17:30 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > Is it > possible that elvish distance vision contained an element of true > 'clairvoyance'? There are other examples of people in Middle Earth > being able to see things 'from afar'... even without bringing the > palantir and suchlike into it. > > It is possible that JRRT just didn't consider the obstacles to such > a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' he saw these things because > he was looking for them. Any comments? Maybe the elves, just as they could travel the "straight road" to the West, could also see the earth's surface as it was (or would have been) before the remaking of the world? I don't actually believe that, but I thought I'd toss it out... DS ###### Message-ID: <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:31:17 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.151 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 945902024 194.125.145.151 (Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:33:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:33:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > "It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he > caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a > pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly remote > and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of flame." > TT, The King of the Golden Hall > > This seems to imply that from the steps of Edoras Legolas could see > Mount Doom approximately 450 miles away on the far side of the Ephel > Duath. This seems like it ought to be impossible for any number of > reasons (intervening barrier, curvature of the earth (which it had > at that point), atmospheric interference, et cetera). Is it > possible that elvish distance vision contained an element of true > 'clairvoyance'? There are other examples of people in Middle Earth > being able to see things 'from afar'... even without bringing the > palantir and suchlike into it. > > It is possible that JRRT just didn't consider the obstacles to such > a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' he saw these things because > he was looking for them. Any comments? The "farseeing eyes" of the ELves were IIRC meant to be as a direct result of them being born beside Lake Cuivenen [sp?] before the first Rising of the Sun. The theory seems to have been, "if they could find their way around in the dark they must have good eyes". I understood this to have been a pohysical ability, not psychic. Thus the ability of Legolas must be based on this physical ability. It follow that the world of Middle-Earth therefore had to have several different characteristics than our world. 1. Either it was still flat or it had an atmosphere which allowed light to bend parallel to the surface of the "planet". 2. Either the allowed some form of preservation of light images by minimising diffusion with distance or it was far less dense and dusty than ours. This latter option flatly contradicts point 1. above, where only a very dense atmosphere can llow light to bend back on itself - similar to the way projected studies of the lensing effect of the dense Venusian atmosphere have suggested. Personally I think Tolkien didn't have a clue about physics or the round earth theory, since atmospheric diffusion on a sunny day gives a "clear visibilty" of around 8 to 12 miles, while IIRC the horizon cut off for a tall thips mast is about 12 miles. :-) M. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elven Vision Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 01:26:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.137 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945911790 207.224.147.137 (Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:16:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:16:30 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> >> "It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he >> caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a >> pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly remote >> and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of flame." >> TT, The King of the Golden Hall Well, so much for an Elf being able to use his imagination in Middle-earth. Nope, once again a more knowledgeable reader has pointed out one of the author's failings. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: oneprincea@aol.complicated (Amanda) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Dec 1999 01:37:28 GMT References: <83r829$283$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991222203728.24456.00000270@nso-fe.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <83r829$283$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > Mr. Dunkerson's thought: "This seems to imply that from the steps of >Edoras Legolas could see Mount Doom approximately 450 miles away on the >far side of the Ephel Duath. This seems like it ought to be impossible >for any number of reasons (intervening barrier, curvature of the earth >(which it had at that point), atmospheric interference, et cetera). Is >it possible that elvish distance vision contained an element of >true 'clairvoyance'? There are other examples of people in Middle Earth > being able to see things 'from afar'... even without bringing the >palantir and suchlike into it. It is possible that JRRT just didn't >consider the obstacles to such a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' >he saw these things because he was looking for them. Any comments?" > > Dear Conrad, > > My thoughts here (for what they're worth :) ) was that Legolas saw >some kind of atmospheric anomaly that 'seemed' to him to resemble Minas >Tirith and Mt. Doom. I don't believe that Elves could see 400 odd >miles and discern detail. Maybe Mr. Tolkien didn't think about the >distances involved, as you surmised. > My parents live on Lake Michigan. When I was a kid, I observed a phenomenon that could occur on very calm nights. We looked outside one night, and we saw the city lights of Port Washington and Milwaukee as clear as anything! Obviously we couldn't see the actual lights. I don't know anything about meteorology, but somehow the lights were reflected, or projected somehow above the lake. Weird, huh? If it doesn't have anything to do with Lake Michigan, maybe this condition helped Legolas? Any meteorologists here? :-) -- "'Off with his head!' cried a rat. 'Give me rice and plenty of it!' shouted a confused old man who'd been waiting too long for service." The Oneprince ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 15:19:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <83tehm$imf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <83r829$283$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19991222203728.24456.00000270@nso-fe.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Dec 23 15:19:53 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Amanda's comment: "My parents live on Lake Michigan. When I was a kid, I observed a phenomenon that could occur on very calm nights. We looked outside one night, and we saw the city lights of Port Washington and Milwaukee as clear as anything! Obviously we couldn't see the actual lights. I don't know anything about meteorology, but somehow the lights were reflected, or projected somehow above the lake. Weird, huh?" Dear Amanda, That's pretty cool what you saw as a kid. I've heard of that happening, in fact a mirage in the desert is a reflected image from many miles away. How far away was Port Washington from your cabin? This phenomena may not occur over the span of 400 miles. I don't know, myself. Happy Holidays! Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:05:14 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 36 Message-ID: <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.144 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 945983417 11991 12.79.29.144 (23 Dec 1999 21:10:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Dec 1999 21:10:17 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> "It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he >> caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a >> pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly >> remote and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of >> flame." >> TT, The King of the Golden Hall > Well, so much for an Elf being able to use his imagination in > Middle-earth. Nope, once again a more knowledgeable reader has > pointed out one of the author's failings. I now restore here a portion of the text Michael snipped; >> It is possible that JRRT just didn't consider the obstacles to >> such a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' he saw these things >> because he was looking for them. Any comments? So, the idea that Legolas may have used his imagination was very much present in the original post.... and in Michael O'Neill's response to that message that MM responded to. Yet it was strangely absent from Michael Martinez's own follow-up. I'd be charitable and suggest that he merely overlooked it in his haste to interject a flame into a thread which dared to be entirely on topic and non- abusive, but I don't have such faith in Michael's character any longer... and thus suspect that he snipped it out deliberately to give credence to his lies. And yeah... this is me losing all patience with the man. ###### Message-ID: <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:20:16 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.152 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 945987765 194.125.145.152 (Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:22:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:22:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Michael Martinez wrote in message > news:83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net... > > > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > >> "It seemed to Legolas, as he strained his farseeing eyes, that he > >> caught a glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a > >> pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly > >> remote and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of > >> flame." > >> TT, The King of the Golden Hall > > > Well, so much for an Elf being able to use his imagination in > > Middle-earth. Nope, once again a more knowledgeable reader has > > pointed out one of the author's failings. > > I now restore here a portion of the text Michael snipped; > > >> It is possible that JRRT just didn't consider the obstacles to > >> such a feat... or that Legolas only 'thought' he saw these things > >> because he was looking for them. Any comments? > > So, the idea that Legolas may have used his imagination was very > much present in the original post.... and in Michael O'Neill's > response to that message that MM responded to. Yet it was strangely > absent from Michael Martinez's own follow-up. I'd be charitable and > suggest that he merely overlooked it in his haste to interject a > flame into a thread which dared to be entirely on topic and non- > abusive, but I don't have such faith in Michael's character any > longer... and thus suspect that he snipped it out deliberately to > give credence to his lies. > > And yeah... this is me losing all patience with the man. Mind you, to be fair to MM, who was following my post, I had dismissed the idea of psychic seeing [and by implication, any kind of "vision" seeing] by my below comment;- "I understood this to have been a pohysical ability, not psychic. Thus the ability of Legolas must be based on this physical ability." So while I take your comment, there may well have been a valid reason for snippage. Like saving bandwidth... So don't lose your patience. Pass them on to the nearest GP :-) M. M. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:50:45 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 24 Message-ID: <83u99l$bg1$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.144 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 945989749 11777 12.79.29.144 (23 Dec 1999 22:55:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Dec 1999 22:55:49 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.netcrusader.net!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Michael O'Neill wrote in message news:3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie... > Mind you, to be fair to MM, who was following my post, I had > dismissed the idea of psychic seeing [and by implication, any kind > of "vision" seeing] by my below comment;- I've been pondering this, trying to figure how it might cast a different light on Michael's post and all I could come up with was that you might be suggesting that he was flaming >you< rather than me? This could be the case (as you did not include the possibility that Legolas was imagining things) except that ALL of the text Michael quoted came from my original message... not your response. If you meant something else, I'm missing it. It seems clear to me that Michael M. was claiming I disallowed the possibility of Legolas imagining things by snipping the text where I said he could have been. Ah... were you suggesting that because you had written other material in there MM was trimming things down and just missed the relevant portion of my message? If so... well, that reverts back to my 'benefit of the doubt' position where he was merely too eager to flame to note that he was incorrect. ###### From: "Conrad B. Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <83r829$283$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19991222203728.24456.00000270@nso-fe.aol.com> Subject: Re: Elven Vision Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <7_x84.7$zf7.589@reader1.interactive.net> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:09:08 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.107.140.40 X-Trace: reader1.interactive.net 945990659 216.107.140.40 (Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:10:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:10:59 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.online.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!cyclone.interactive.net!reader1.interactive.net!not-for-mail Amanda wrote in message news:19991222203728.24456.00000270@nso-fe.aol.com... > My parents live on Lake Michigan. When I was a kid, I observed a > phenomenon that could occur on very calm nights. We looked > outside one night, and we saw the city lights of Port Washington > and Milwaukee as clear as anything! Interesting. I believe this is an example of a specific kind of mirage which I vaguely recall having heard about, but am almost completely ignorant of the physics behind. It certainly seems possible that what Legolas saw in this case was some sort of reflection... though at that point it could be a campfire somewhere as easily as Amon Amarth. :) ###### From: oneprincea@aol.complicated (Amanda) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Dec 1999 23:36:14 GMT References: <83tehm$imf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991223183614.24456.00000405@nso-fe.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <83tehm$imf$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > Amanda's comment: "My parents live on Lake Michigan. When I was a >kid, I observed a phenomenon that could occur on very calm nights. We >looked outside one night, and we saw the city lights of Port Washington >and Milwaukee as clear as anything! Obviously we couldn't see the >actual lights. I don't know anything about meteorology, but somehow >the lights were reflected, or projected somehow above the lake. Weird, >huh?" > That's pretty cool what you saw as a kid. I've heard of that >happening, in fact a mirage in the desert is a reflected image from >many miles away. How far away was Port Washington from your cabin? >This phenomena may not occur over the span of 400 miles. I don't know, >myself. > I just consulted the atlases at hand. The Michigan map did not extend across the entire lake at that latitude. Neither did the Wisconsin map. There is a line on the map showing the Ludington to Manitowoc car ferry route, and according to the scale it is roughly 58 miles. It could be about 60 miles from White Lake channel to Port Washington. So that is not much compared to 400 miles of Middle Earth. But I don't know anything about the atmospheric condition that caused the image. -- "'Off with his head!' cried a rat. 'Give me rice and plenty of it!' shouted a confused old man who'd been waiting too long for service." The Oneprince ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elven Vision Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83ud36$31s_002@news.uswest.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:00:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.225 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945993372 207.224.149.225 (Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:56:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:56:12 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie>, Michael O'Neill wrote: >Mind you, to be fair to MM, who was following my post, I had dismissed >the idea of psychic seeing [and by implication, any kind of "vision" >seeing] by my below comment;- Conrad? Be fair? Of course not. >So while I take your comment, there may well have been a valid reason >for snippage. Like saving bandwidth... Brevity in the face of an onslought of "Tolkien must not have been thinking" messages. I grabbed the first one that was convenient, snipped out everything but the point I wished to address, and posted my observation that people weren't being fair to the author (once again) in their superior wisdom. Let those wear the shoes whom they fit. Everyone else can giggle at the emperor's new clothes. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:09:22 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 35 Message-ID: <83uku3$la7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie> <83ud36$31s_002@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.168 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 946001667 21831 12.79.24.168 (24 Dec 1999 02:14:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Dec 1999 02:14:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:83ud36$31s_002@news.uswest.net... > Brevity in the face of an onslought of "Tolkien must not have been > thinking" messages. Onslaught? There weren't ANY. Only you could create an 'onslaught' out of ZERO examples. That 'quotation' does not appear in a single message that I am aware of, certainly none that I've posted. Nor has anything even substantially similar in meaning been posted by me (or anyone that I know of) anytime in recent history. No onslaught, just Michael lying some more to cover up his last lie. > I grabbed the first one that was convenient, snipped out > everything but the point I wished to address Including the text which proved that point to be false. > and posted my observation that people weren't being fair to the > author (once again) in their superior wisdom. Michael, you took a perfectly on topic post discussing what the author may have intended by a particular passage, snipped it down, and then mischaracterized it (directly contradicting the portion you had snipped) to create this fictional 'unfairness to the author' and claims of 'superior wisdom'. It doesn't exist. I'd suggest you post quotations to support your claims, but you've already posted two inaccurate ones (one edited, the other completely fabricated) so what would be the point? This attempt to paint me as launching an 'onslaught' against JRR Tolkien is your typical sort of character assassination. It is unfounded, untrue, and indefensible behaviour. This continuing campaign of blatantly false claims about me is really starting to wear thin. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision References: <83r829$283$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19991222203728.24456.00000270@nso-fe.aol.com> <7_x84.7$zf7.589@reader1.interactive.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 30 Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:39:25 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 946003167 198.172.26.10 (Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:39:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:39:27 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:09:08 -0500, Conrad B. Dunkerson wrote: >Amanda wrote in message >news:19991222203728.24456.00000270@nso-fe.aol.com... > >> My parents live on Lake Michigan. When I was a kid, I observed a >> phenomenon that could occur on very calm nights. We looked >> outside one night, and we saw the city lights of Port Washington >> and Milwaukee as clear as anything! > >Interesting. I believe this is an example of a specific kind of >mirage which I vaguely recall having heard about, but am almost >completely ignorant of the physics behind. It certainly seems If you're driving on a hot day, you can often see what look like pools of water in the road ahead of you. This is a mirage caused by, IIRC, heating of the air close to the ground. It's at a higher temperature than the air above, so it's less optically dense, and the light entering it at a steep angle curves upward toward horizontal. Since it appears to be coming from the road, it looks like it's reflecting from a pool of water in the road. (Except that a real reflection is horizontally polarized, while this mirage isn't polarized at all. Hence the point of polarized sunglasses.) In theory, I suppose this could also cause light coming up through the temperature gradient to be refracted downward, which might cause it to curve over the horizon to some extent. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:11:14 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie> <83ud36$31s_002@news.uswest.net> <83uku3$la7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c0.24 X-Server-Date: 24 Dec 1999 16:09:12 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail With just over 12 months remaining in the millennium, conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Michael, you took a perfectly on topic post discussing what the >author may have intended by a particular passage, snipped it down, >and then mischaracterized it [...] > It is unfounded, untrue, and indefensible behaviour. >This continuing campaign of blatantly false claims about me is >really starting to wear thin. Granted that all of that is true, wouldn't it do your blood pressure some good if you simply killfiled him? I know it helped mine when I did. It's only my opinion, but to me your multiple-times-a-day corrections of his misstatements are also starting to wear thin. We all know that the truth is not in him, despite his better-than-average knowledge of Tolkien's works. How many times is it truly necessary to point that out in crushing detail? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Vision Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:25:31 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 46 Message-ID: <840ak3$ouo$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <83p9j6$s26$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <38615135.CC4F00CF@indigo.ie> <83rtol$174_006@news.uswest.net> <83u33p$bmn$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <3862A020.551986C6@indigo.ie> <83ud36$31s_002@news.uswest.net> <83uku3$la7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.153 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 946056643 25560 12.79.56.153 (24 Dec 1999 17:30:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Dec 1999 17:30:43 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.12cd653121b470d598a861@news.mindspring.com... > It's only my opinion, but to me your multiple-times-a-day > corrections of his misstatements are also starting to wear thin. Hmm... ok, but which is worse; 1: Correcting various misstatements 2: Not correcting them and allowing them to spread I still see people repeating his claims that the two references to elven ears being pointed came in the absurdly distant past and thus had no relevance to the published stories... when a quick check of the actual dates shows that they were both written after The Hobbit was published during the time JRRT was starting work on LotR. I did not correct that one when it first came out, and now it is all over the place (including most web-sites which carry essays on the subject). > We all know that the truth is not in him, despite his better-than- > average knowledge of Tolkien's works. How many times is it truly > necessary to point that out in crushing detail? Hrrrmm. Well, what if I were to do so less often? As it is I let more than half the personal attacks/untruths go unanswered and only correct the on-topic inaccuracies (generally opinions stated as facts) once every few times he makes them. I passed on that bit about the Silent Watchers and other things being inhabited by enslaved elvish spirits entirely (interesting theory, no proof to support saying that it WAS the case). Yes, I correct him alot... but I pipe up at other people when they make assumptions too. I know it has to be annoying from time to time, but providing quotations and alternate possibilities is rather what I consider my 'purpose' here. I just responded to a lengthy analysis of the number of Elves in Middle Earth and felt rather ogrish in having to point out that the whole thing was founded on an idea (Elves being reborn to their own descendants) which JRRT had eventually decided against. We all like to see our ideas discussed and considered (part of the reason I was so annoyed with Michael's flaming intrusion into one of the VERY few speculative threads I have started), but I feel that inclusion of quotations and alternate possibilities broadens and strengthens the discussion if addressed honestly.