From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: A Question of Language and Time Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Dec 1999 22:26:34 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail As I have always understood it, Tolkien created his world as an outgrowth of his invented languages. The point for Tolkien being, what sort of culture would develop this sort of language. But the elvish tongues read left to right, while the elves start their days at sunset/moonrise (I can't remember which exactly) Most cultures I can think of which start their day at sunset read right to left. (Hebrew, Arabic for instance, although I believe the Chinese have a moon based calendar, but read top to bottom.) This is actually how I remember to distinguish waxing and waning moons. The moon grows full starting from the right and the last sliver is on the left, before a new moon comes. Did Tolkien ever consider this, or is it just another anachronism which he did not get to? Or, am I just not aware of any cultures that would give a precedent? Thanks for any input in advance. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Message-ID: References: <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 46 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:46:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945733566 208.170.95.207 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:46:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:46:06 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote: > As I have always understood it, Tolkien created his world as an outgrowth of > his invented languages. Tolkien did say something to this effect, but it's very hard to understand in what sense it was true. On the one hand, writing his mythologies did require a certain amount of language development, enough for him to create a consistent nomenclature, which was always very important for him; on the other hand, the earliest writings of his which concern his elvish languages already presuppose the existence of the mythology in a developed form, and are full of names that derive from it. I also believe that I can detect cases in which the development of the mythology drove the development of a language; e.g., the need for a new name, or for a new explanation for an existing (unexplained or inadequately explained) name would motivate the development of new words, roots, word families, grammatical points, and other features of language history and structure. So I think that the two elements were symbiotic: Tolkien created worlds for his (inchoate) languages to live in, but the worlds prompted change and growth in the languages, and the changes could lead to subsequent changes in the mythologies. > The point for Tolkien being, what sort of culture > would develop this sort of language. But the elvish tongues read left to > right, while the elves start their days at sunset/moonrise (I can't remember > which exactly) Most cultures I can think of which start their day at sunset > read right to left. (Hebrew, Arabic for instance, although I believe the > Chinese have a moon based calendar, but read top to bottom.) The elvish day was supposed to start at sunset; however, the Sindarin name for morning twilight was minuial "first twilight", and for evening aduial "second twilight". Go figure. Maybe the new day did not actually start until the aduial had faded to night. I don't see any reason to associate it with the direction of writing, which is a pretty much arbitrary habit, possibly related to ease of writing with pens, styluses, wedge-shaped reeds and so on in long-extinct scripts. Egyptian hieroglyphs were usually written from right to left, but very often left to right when symmetry demanded it. Early Greek writing can go either way, or both at the same time (the so-called boustrophedon ; (gnitirw fo elyts Etruscan goes from right to left, but the Roman alphabet, closely related to the Etruscan, goes from left to right. Day-reckoning is another, and I think quite distinct, arbitrary cultural artifact. David Salo ###### Message-ID: <385EC2AF.7D7C454A@gofree.indigo.ie> From: Jones & McAuley Reply-To: jonmca@gofree.indigo.ie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time References: <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:58:40 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.172.197 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 945734360 194.125.172.197 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:59:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:59:20 GMT Organization: Indigo Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail PaulB wrote: > As I have always understood it, Tolkien created his world as an outgrowth of > his invented languages. The point for Tolkien being, what sort of culture > would develop this sort of language. But the elvish tongues read left to > right, while the elves start their days at sunset/moonrise (I can't remember > which exactly) Most cultures I can think of which start their day at sunset > read right to left. (Hebrew, Arabic for instance, although I believe the > Chinese have a moon based calendar, but read top to bottom.) This is actually > how I remember to distinguish waxing and waning moons. The moon grows full > starting from the right and the last sliver is on the left, before a new moon > comes. Did Tolkien ever consider this, or is it just another anachronism which > he did not get to? Or, am I just not aware of any cultures that would give a > precedent? > > Thanks for any input in advance. > > PB > > "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that > die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal > out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT Terry Pratchett's trolls have a lovely saying, "since the dusk of time". Trolls are night-time creatures and would of course start the day at sunset. Eoin ###### From: jsavard@domain.ctry (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:39:56 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 29 Message-ID: <385f4a06.705003@news.prosurfr.com> References: <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: burn.ab.videon.ca 945794334 27236 24.108.21.103 (21 Dec 1999 16:38:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1999 16:38:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote, in part: >But the elvish tongues read left to >right, while the elves start their days at sunset/moonrise (I can't remember >which exactly) Moonrise, of course, can take place at *any* time of day, depending on the phase of the moon. >Most cultures I can think of which start their day at sunset >read right to left. (Hebrew, Arabic for instance, although I believe the >Chinese have a moon based calendar, but read top to bottom.) I don't think there was cause for Tolkien to think of a causal relationship. Chinese, when written from top to bottom, reads next from right to left; and Egyptian hieroglyphics also are normally written in that fashion. (Yet the components of a Chinese character are best read from left to right, then down.) Apparently, for some reason, it was natural for the earliest cultures to write from right to left, and there was an eventual changeover which may have been due to the fact that writing from left to right is easier to do neatly - the hand doesn't have to pass over what has just been written. John Savard (jsavardecnabca) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: Felix Reuthner Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:53:28 +0100 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <385FB088.83E077EA@gmx.de> References: <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com> <385EC2AF.7D7C454A@gofree.indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: frodo.inet.dkfz-heidelberg.de (192.55.188.222) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 945795210 131634 192.55.188.222 (16 [9058]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [de] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!frodo.inet.dkfz-heidelberg.DE!not-for-mail Jones & McAuley wrote: > Terry Pratchett's trolls have a lovely saying, "since the dusk of time". Trolls are night-time creatures and would of course start the day at sunset. There is also annother nice bit of troll-philosophy in one of Pratchett's books: Since we know what lies behind us, but not what is comming towards us, it is clear that we walk backwards through the time. -- "To those who understand, no explanation is necessary, to those who will not understand, no explanation is possible" ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:19:39 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <5818-38606D7B-8@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <385f4a06.705003@news.prosurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQ2wTQOTAXlFKK8iWNVTevg1v0U8QIVAJUgowGw+7o6dQHbjusDKhLHyhMV Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail John Savard wrote: >writing from left to right is easier to do >neatly - the hand doesn't have to pass >over what has just been written. Not for me it isn't. --Dave ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:07:09 GMT Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3860dae7.1432299@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <385f4a06.705003@news.prosurfr.com> <5818-38606D7B-8@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: newsfeed.sas.ab.ca 945871772 17569 198.161.206.2 (22 Dec 1999 14:09:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Dec 1999 14:09:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!clarke.sasknet.sk.ca!tribune.usask.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!198.161.206.165 On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:19:39 -0500 (EST), orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >John Savard wrote: >>writing from left to right is easier to do >>neatly - the hand doesn't have to pass >>over what has just been written. >Not for me it isn't. You are correct: I forgot to mention that this is generally true because right-handed people are more common than left-handed people. ###### From: Morgion666 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:16:44 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <83s46s$mdf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.228.64.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Dec 23 03:16:44 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x30.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.228.64.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmorgion666 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <19991220172634.20436.00000390@nso-bh.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote: > As I have always understood it, Tolkien created his world as an outgrowth of > his invented languages. The point for Tolkien being, what sort of culture > would develop this sort of language. But the elvish tongues read left to > right, while the elves start their days at sunset/moonrise (I can't remember > which exactly) Most cultures I can think of which start their day at sunset > read right to left. (Hebrew, Arabic for instance, although I believe the > Chinese have a moon based calendar, but read top to bottom.) This is actually > how I remember to distinguish waxing and waning moons. The moon grows full > starting from the right and the last sliver is on the left, before a new moon > comes. Did Tolkien ever consider this, or is it just another anachronism which > he did not get to? Or, am I just not aware of any cultures that would give a > precedent? > > Thanks for any input in advance. No, I don't think he even cared. Why would he give a rat's ass about how Chinese day count is different/same from elven. He just made the whole thing up and can't be criticized because none of it even exists. -- "There is something coming forth, a vision from the ancient times. They rape my mind as I try to resist, but I can't because I am just like them" Galder Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: A Question of Language and Time Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Dec 1999 02:42:27 GMT References: <83s46s$mdf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991223214227.20163.00000950@nso-bk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <83s46s$mdf$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Morgion666 writes: >No, I don't think he even cared. Why would he give a rat's ass about how >Chinese day count is different/same from elven. He just made the whole >thing up and can't be criticized because none of it even exists. Because he was a philologist? Because he was particularly interested in how languages reflect their cultures of origins? Because this type of thing was near the root of why he started creating an alternative mythos? That's why he might have cared. I was just wondering if he did give these things any consideration. (Besides, the Hebrew and Arabic calendars were closer if he did, I only mention Chinese to make you aware of my degree of sceptisim and/or lack of knowledge of other language culture parings from the outset.) PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT