From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 15 Dec 1999 06:04:12 GMT Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Does anyone suppose that perhaps Tolkien had in mind a specific connection between Arthurian legend and his tales of Middle Earth. I always imagined that Arthur was likely a descendent of Aragorn, and Excalibur perhaps none other than Narsil/Anduril renamed yet again. He has much in common with Aragorn besides a magic sword: specifically his connection with elves. Arthur apparently had both elvish blood and elvish relatives, specifically his sister, Morgan le Fay. And it is interesting that so many of Aragorns line start with "Ar-" And then, i have always imagined that Merlin might be none other than Radagast, still hanging out in his beloved Middle Earth after 6 thousand years. Certainly Tolkien makes specific reference, in his legends to the island of Avalon, (This is where the mortally wounded Arthur is ultimately taken by Morgan and two other elvish queens). It is mentioned as an island that lies west of Numenor on the outskirts of Aman. In referring to Morgan as "elvish" I am of course referring to the more ancient versions of the tale. It is only later that she came to be regarded merely as an evil sorceress whose beauty was preserved by dark magic rather than natural immortality. -- John Whelan ###### Message-ID: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> From: Chris Csernica X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 82 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:36:42 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.20.86.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: nuq-read.news.verio.net 945243179 207.20.86.117 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:32:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:32:59 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nuq-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Nystulc wrote: > > Does anyone suppose that perhaps Tolkien had in mind > a specific connection between Arthurian legend and > his tales of Middle Earth. No. > I always imagined that Arthur > was likely a descendent of Aragorn, and Excalibur > perhaps none other than Narsil/Anduril renamed yet > again. Renamed more than once. "Excalibur" is ultimately derived from the Welsh "Caledfwlch," or "hard one" IIRC. Semantically and phonetically unconnected with Anduril "Flame of the West", but we would expect to find such a relation had Tolkien intended any such thing. Also, if he intended your imagined genaeology, he likely have provided somewhere in his copious notes and drafts some kind of line of descent for Arthur where his line might be traceable to pre-Roman British chieftains, themselves decended from Numenorean royalty. But he did not do so, and the line of Pendragons of which Arthur was supposed to be a bastard son has no such antecedents in legend. There is no connection, either explicit or implied. It ought to be remembered here, perhaps, that Tolkien set out at first to create a mythology for the English people. In Arthurian legend, one of the ancestor groups of the English - the Saxons - are the main enemy. > He has much in common with Aragorn besides > a magic sword: specifically his connection with elves. > Arthur apparently had both elvish blood and elvish > relatives, specifically his sister, Morgan le Fay. And it > is interesting that so many of Aragorns line start with > "Ar-" This is just an Adunaic word-element meaning "King". Do any of the Tolkien linguists out there know if "-thur" corresponds to anything in that language? I want to say it doesn't, but I have only a passing familiarity with Adunaic and no deep knowlege. You cannot identify Tolkien's Eldar with the Faeries, Sidhe, and the rest of the otherworldy folk of British legend. There is no correspondence whatsoever. The latter are never even called "elves" in their original matrix. "Elf" is of Germanic origin and not Celtic at all. The identification of the two is strictly a modern construction. > And then, i have always imagined that Merlin might be > none other than Radagast, still hanging out in his > beloved Middle Earth after 6 thousand years. Radagast was a friend of the Eagles... A merlin is a kind of eagle... Hmm... Naah. > Certainly Tolkien makes specific reference, in his > legends to the island of Avalon, (This is where the > mortally wounded Arthur is ultimately taken by Morgan > and two other elvish queens). It is mentioned as an > island that lies west of Numenor on the outskirts of Aman. Tol Eressea is the name of the island. Avallone is the haven on it. > In referring to Morgan as "elvish" I am of course referring > to the more ancient versions of the tale. It is only later > that she came to be regarded merely as an evil sorceress > whose beauty was preserved by dark magic rather than > natural immortality. It is perhaps an error to assume that the more otherworldly Welsh Arthurian tales are in fact the oldest versions of the story. The bardic tradition appears to have survived in Wales for a rather long while. As professional storytellers, bards were less interested in preserving a tradition than in telling a ripping good story, such as would induce silver to flow from his audience in his direction. I could cite specific examples of instances where common Indo-European themes were melded into various traditional histories via this process, but I'm too lazy to consult my references just now. -- Chris Csernica ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 03:25:05 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 13 Message-ID: <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQm4FX3gnjLKeMT6UIfojhd8R2oagIUONwp48YWFuAxyx4TQbAarM1LE7Q= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed01.btx.dtag.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: >it is interesting that so many of Aragorns >line start with "Ar-" That is because in this case, "ar-" is a Sindarin root meaning "noble". Not surpirsing, considering that these men were the kings of Arnor/Arthedain and then later the chieftains of the Dunedain of the North. The "ar-" root btw is also part of the name Arnor as well, which means (I think) "Land of Kings" (or something like that). --Dave ###### Message-ID: <3857A86C.7A01F761@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:40:44 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 945269147 24.128.99.214 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:45:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:45:47 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Chris Csernica wrote: > [snip] > Radagast was a friend of the Eagles... A merlin is a kind of eagle... > Hmm... Naah. Actually, a merlin is a pigeon hawk. To compare names: Welsh 'Myrddin'-- 'sea-hill' (N.Tolstoy gives 'Mer/lin' 'Sea fortress') 'Aiwendil', Radagast's name in the West, means 'friend/lover of birds' 'Tolkien first gives the form 'Radagast' as 'Tender of beasts' then later writes that it was a name derived from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, and 'not now clearly interpretable'. Though I know our eminent linguist David Salo has given it a plausible interpretation in archaic German and Gothic. :) -- Cian ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 15 Date: 15 Dec 1999 12:00:25 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945288030 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:00:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:00:30 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 03:25:05 -0500 (EST), David Sulger wrote: >That is because in this case, "ar-" is a Sindarin root meaning "noble". >Not surpirsing, considering that these men were the kings of >Arnor/Arthedain and then later the chieftains of the Dunedain of the >North. The "ar-" root btw is also part of the name Arnor as well, which >means (I think) "Land of Kings" (or something like that). That's unlikely, as 'Arnor' is Sindarin. (As are 'Gondor' and 'Mordor'.) The 'ar-' root in Sindarin means, AFAICT, 'noble' (as in 'Aredhel'). Hence 'Arnor' = "noble land" or "noble people", depending on whether this is 'nor' as in Quenya 'ndor' or as in Quenya 'nore'. ('Numenor' is both. Properly, the land of Numenor is called Numendor (though Quenya ND and NG frequently get reduced to just N, as in 'Rohan', 'Noldor') and the people who live there are called, collectively, Numenore.) ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Message-ID: References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 41 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:41:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945463318 208.170.95.6 (Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:41:58 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:41:58 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 03:25:05 -0500 (EST), David Sulger wrote: > > >That is because in this case, "ar-" is a Sindarin root meaning "noble". > >Not surpirsing, considering that these men were the kings of > >Arnor/Arthedain and then later the chieftains of the Dunedain of the > >North. The "ar-" root btw is also part of the name Arnor as well, which > >means (I think) "Land of Kings" (or something like that). > > That's unlikely, as 'Arnor' is Sindarin. (As are 'Gondor' and 'Mordor'.) > The 'ar-' root in Sindarin means, AFAICT, 'noble' (as in 'Aredhel'). > Hence 'Arnor' = "noble land" or "noble people", depending on whether this > is 'nor' as in Quenya 'ndor' or as in Quenya 'nore'. ('Numenor' is both. > Properly, the land of Numenor is called Numendor (though Quenya ND and NG > frequently get reduced to just N, as in 'Rohan', 'Noldor') and the people > who live there are called, collectively, Numenore.) Arnor is a Sindarin (in form) _borrowing_ from Quenya Arna-noore (which by "haplology", or loss of a syllable in a sequence of two similar syllables, in this case na-no) becomes Arnoore; in Sindarin, in which final vowels are rare, and long final syllables even rarer, it becomes Arnor. Arna (S Arn) means "royal", and is related to Aran "king". Why this complicated origin? Well, because Tolkien in this case cheated. He wanted a name that mean "royal land", but since Arn+dor (the usual Sindarin suffix for "land") would give "Ardor", with unsuitable suggestions of fire and passion, he decided to make it Arnor, and justify it as a Quenya borrowing! Arthur could be explained as a Sindarin derivative of *Artuuro "High Master" or *Artuure "High Mastery"; these would naturally evolve to Arthur in Sindarin. But the name Arthur appears to derive, in fact, from a Latin name Artorius (with long o) > Arturius > Arthur in Welsh. It is odd, in fact, that Arthur is known by the Welsh form of his name in the English legends, which are mostly derived from French versions in which the name is Artus, Artu; the name must have been re-formed by persons with at least a passing knowledge of the Welsh Arthur. David Salo ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:28:24 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <385A165B.81E1F178@ihwy.com> <83dq7j$jo$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ70!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:01:48 -0000, "Alan Graham" wrote: >Tolkien did say several times he disliked Celtic myths Hol'Dit! I want references. I don't believe that he ever said such a thing! He did say that the Sil. was not Celtic, but that's not the same thing. (He also wrote a fragment of an Arthurian poem.) the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- God? I'm no God! God has MERCY! ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Lines: 353 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 18 Dec 1999 03:11:27 GMT References: <385A165B.81E1F178@ihwy.com> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991217221127.23924.00000104@nso-ck.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail In article <385A165B.81E1F178@ihwy.com>, Chris Csernica writes: >I was grasping at straws, more or less looking for any reasonable >support for your theory. If the sole connection you can draw between >Anduril and Excalibur is that they were both "magic" swords, "you'll >have to do better than that!" Magic swords are a dime a dozen in >Faerie. I could use the same criterion to suggest that Roland (of Le >Chanson de) and little Johnny's D&D character Throg the Barbarian are >related because they both had magic swords. My mention of the Magic Sword was an afterthought, and a logical corollary to the idea that Arthur might be of the line of Elendil. It could easily be a different sword, whether he is of the line of Elendil or not. Besides, my question was, whether it is possible that Tolkien imagined a connection between Arthurian legend and his Middle Earth history. I never claimed much evidence. I find it amusing to imagine such a connection, and it seems to me at least plausible that Tolkien might have as well. Your response is no, (it is not possible), and I do not find your objections convincing . >The fact is that Tolkien made no connection between the two blades. A >name in common (such as Avalon/Avallone; Atlantis/Atalante) might have >provided just such a connection. It doesn't. >> > Also, if he intended your imagined genaeology, he likely have provided >> > somewhere in his copious notes and drafts some kind of line of descent >> > for Arthur where his line might be traceable to pre-Roman British >> > chieftains, themselves decended from Numenorean royalty. >> >> You say that very flippantly, as though it were an easy thing. Tell you >> what! Why don't you give Tolkien 10 years of your life so he can come >> back to finish the Silmarilion, and I'll give him 10 years of mine so that >> when he is done with that he can work out the history of the 4th, 5th, >> and 6th ages, and work into them the genealogies connecting Aragorn >> with Arthur. > >What, I'm supposed to think he didn't do it because it was too hard? >Writing LOTR was hard. Making up a single line of descent within the >context of legends that were extremely well known to him, either because >they were a focus of his study or because he made them up himself - >that's relatively easy. He did it numerous times just for LOTR. Look >at the appendices sometime. Right. I notice that he failed to write a line of descent for the descendents of Aragorn, though the line presumably survived for a long time into the Fourth age, and perhaps beyond. Why did he not do this if it was so easy (whether it ends in Arthur of not). Your objection seems scarcely relevant.. And I think you underestimate the creative energy required to make a meaningful line of descent that is anything more than a silly list of names. >> There are many reasons why he would not have chosen to devote >> time to such a project. > >But there is ample reason to think he would have devoted a moment or two >of thought to it, Of course. > and had he done so he almost certainly would have >jotted down a note or mentioned it to someone at some point in his >voluminous correspondence. Total non-sequitur. You seem to assume that if someone has time to walk a step, he therefore has time to walk 20 steps. Why should the subject be addressed in his "voluminous correspondence" unless someone asked him specifically about the subject (and why should he tell them, even if they asked). You vastly overestimate the thoroughness of Tolkien's published correspondence. They touch on a thousant subjects, but there are a million subjects they do not touch on. Nowhere, for instance, does he address the question of whether Frodo or the Ring spoke on Mount Doom, or whether Elves have pointed ears, etc. >> One, of course, is the fact that, the closer you >> get to modern times, the harder it is to "invent" things without >> contradicting known historical facts that you personally are unaware >> of (thus spoiling ths suspension of disbelief). This is one of the reasons >> Tolkien set his histories so far back in the first place. And such lore >> of course, could not have been worked into the Red Book as a >> framing device. > >I think you need to give Tolkien a bit more credit. He knew quite a bit >of history as it related to his linguistic researches, and all the >history he would have needed to construct - or merely suggest - such a >line of descent. In fact, he did just this in the earliest version of >his mythology, when Tol Eressea was meant to be England, and the town of >Kortirion corresponded to Warwick. A traveller named Eriol (later in >the story renamed Aelfwine = Elf-Friend = Elendil) who comes to the >island later becomes the father of Hengist and Horsa, and receives >himself a genaeology going back to Woden. (Significantly for this >discussion, the word elements "Kor-" and "War-" are intended to be >etymologically related.) > >> Tolkien suggested that the Blue Wizards might have been the founders >> of eastern magic traditions. I presume he was referring to real >> magical/mystical traditions that surivive today (at least in myth). > >That presumption may be, as Tolkien often put it, "impertinent." Impertinent to who, Tolkien or the Eastern Traditions? He appears to have had something in mind, and it is not like he had invented fictional Eastern cults of his own that the was referring to. He suggests that these cults "outlasted the fall of Sauron", which seems to me a clear attempt to draw an association to later times. What later times do you suppose he had in mind, if not our own ancient history and legend? >> And yet he merely suggested this, without writing a 3 volume >> history of the development. >And a connection between Arthur and Aragorn could have been similarly >suggested, at some point, to someone. It was not. I'm sure there are s zillion things of which we have no recorded comment. >[snip] > >> Even within the early ages, he never >> wrote a genealogy connecting the various famous dragons >> "of royal lineage" like Glaurung, Ancalagon, Scatha, Smaug, and >> Chrysophilax. > >In the history of the Little Kingdom, Tolkien produced a tale that was >entirely unconnected with his larger mythology. Fine. Leave out Chrysophilax if you do not find his "royal lineage" suggestive of a connection. Explain why he never wrote a genealogy connecting the rest of them. > It was a herculean >effort for him to do so, and it is quite inconsiderate of you to drag >them together in spite of that. I'm sure he is rolling in his grave at the insult. Actually, I think he liked to imagine all his stories as though they were true, and all set within *this* same world. Applying "suspension of disbelief" to both tales leads automatically to the conclusion that Chrysophylax is descended from the flying "uruloki" of the third age. I suspect, rather, that Tolkien would be flattered by the connection, for it would mean that the stories had had there intended effect. > True, he did feel certain that it would > have inevitably become connected had he written a sequel or two, simply > because everything he wrote seemed to connect itself one way or > another. Even _The Hobbit_ was not supposed to have anything to do with > _The Silmarillion_ at first. Thus, there is no need to produce a > precise geneaology for dragons from Glaurung (the father of all dragons) > to Chrysophylax (who, it should be noted, was not of royal lineage, but > of ancient and imperial lineage, a much grander thing.) > But none of Morgoth's dragons are ever described as "royal". Smaug is, I believe, decribed in such terms, though I don't have the Hobbit in front of me to check. I always assumed this referred to the fact that he was a fire-breathing winged dragon, descended from the ones that were bred by Morgoth, and specifically from the most powerful and famous of them (such as Ancalagon). > It is no >more reasonable to believe that Tolkien would have developed a >genaeology for them than he would have for, say, the Orcs. You say it is not reasonable because he did not do it. Had he done it, there would have been nothing unreasonable about it. The point is, one can imagine, or imply, or suggest, a line of descent without documenting it fully, as was done in the case of Smaug. I never argued that Tolkien should be obliged or expected to do such things, though that did appear to be your assumption. > On the other hand, he did develop genaeologies for the royal houses of > Gondor and Arnor, Rohan, the Dwarves of Durin's folk, and some of the > more prominent families of the Shire, all as an afterthought to LOTR for > the benefit of the appendices, and fairly quickly. It would not have > taxed his powers significantly to outline (or even mention!) a descent > from Elessar to Arthur. > > [snip] > >> To my knowledge, the "line of Pendragons" does not go back beyond Uther, >> Arthur's father. The legends leave much about Arthur unexplained, >especially >> if one goes back to the older legends that Tolkien evidently preferred. >This >> does not prevent the imagination from working. > >So the historical associations you were so worried about as being >difficult to reconcile with invented legends don't really seem do exist, >do they? Tolkien was deliberately vague about the precise time-period in which the War of the Ring took place. He was not sure if it was 6000 or 7000 or 8000 years ago. He did not wish to be specific, because he felt that was perilous to suspension of disbelief, perhaps allowing his tales to seem unconvincing to readers with geological or archaeological knowledge of past ages. Writing a line of descent that directly connects the Third Age to our own would not at all be consistent witht his deliberate vagueness, and would have been problematic for a whole host of other reasons. Tolkien would not have done it. My suggestions may be silly, but your objections are even sillier.. >> I have already mentioned some "implied" connections: Both are member of a >> mysterious line of Kings with both "fairy" blood and "fairy" relatives, which >> line, due to such "elvish" connections, has a way of returning, even after >> long absences. > >The same is true of half the kings of Ireland. So what? You yourself stated he was interested in a specifically English mythology. >And there was nothing mysterous about Aragorn's ancestry, merely >obscure. You're being silly. It was "mysterious" to the same people to whom it was "obscure". Those who did not find it "obscure" did not find it "mysterious" either. > But it was well documented, even if not well known. His >line's "elvish connections" didn't have a way of returning; in all the >5000+ years of the Second and Third Ages it happened exactly once, at >the end of the Third. The family connection between Elrond an the line of Elendil existed during the entire period, and were at least one of the reasons for the support given by Elrond to the Dunedain kings. It was renewed by the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn (who were already distant relatives). > It was fairly clear that it wouldn't happen >again. The Eldar would soon all depart. I'm not clear that Tolkien ever stated that ALL the Eldar departed at the beginning of the fourth age. I'm sure there were, as always, some who tarried. In any event, many dark elves remained. >> Of course, I would not assume that Arthur's connection (if any) to the line of >> Elendil comes through Uther Pendragon. My impression from the legends >> is that Arthur was special in a way that Uther was not, and this mystical >> connection comes more from Igraine's side of the family than from >> Uther's. I also get the impression that the union of Igraine and Uther was >> part of a plot by Merlin to raise one of Igraine's ancestry to the local >> throne. > > Did Tolkien see this the same way? Should he have? I thought it possible he could have imagined a connection with Arthurian legend, though I have no idea how he would have done it. My own ideas are my own ideas, which I put forth because they amuse me. I did not ascribe the above ideas to Tolkien. I was interested to find out if anyone else on this NG had thoughts on the subject, or knew if Tolkien had had any. > Are your > impressions colored by modern writers such as Marion Zimmer Bradley, > whom Tolkien never would have read? I have not read Marion Zimmer Bradley. I am not surprised that she came up with this notion, though, because it is not an radical or wierd one. I find birth-legends interesting, and particularly in that they are, in origen, often an excuse for denying someones apparent heritage and giving them an different one. Take Moses, for example. The point of his birth-legend is to make him a Hebrew, but perhaps a more interesting and certain aspect of his heritage is what the legend was trying to deny -- that he was an Egyptian nobleman. Similar logic applied to Arthur would lead one to conclude that his descent from Igraine might be a more significant fact than his descent from Uther. That his mother's side is the supernatural side of the family only adds to the tendency to emphasise its importance for anyone who wishes to rewrite the story (as modern writers are less likely to be impressed by the importance of establishing "royal blood"). If there was a real Arthur, then one thing about him is almost certainly true: He was most definitely NOT the son of Uther Pendragon. Otherwise, there would be no need to invent a host of tall tales to pretend that he actually was. > And can you demonstrate that he saw > things the same way you do? You're not even attempting to here. You > ought, in any event, be careful of ascribing your subjective impressions > to others. Oh, stop preaching! Sheesh! >> > It ought to be remembered here, perhaps, that Tolkien set out at first >> > to create a mythology for the English people. In Arthurian legend, one >> > of the ancestor groups of the English - the Saxons - are the main enemy. >> >> OK, but does that point work against this idea? > > Arthur wasn't English. Tolkien's mindset was, as is clear from HoME, > that the modern descendents of the Elf-friends were English. This was > explicitly true as late as the composition of "The Lost Road," which was > the first version of the Akallabeth. He never involved Celts in his > stories in any way. I have not read HoME, so I cannot comment. I still do not see much relevance here. I suspect that Tolkien's imaginary "English" mythology is set before the Saxon invasion. Therefore, I doubt that they were "English" in the precise sense of being Anglo-Saxon. Anyway, we are not talking about Middle Earth, but another abandoned project. >[snip the only thing that makes sense] ? >> I doubt the legends are entirely unrelated, but.... > >You ought not. There's no similarity at all. One can always find similarities if one is imaginative, and that's what we are talking about. Tolkien's works are not scientific treatises on mythology. The Atlantis legend is unconnected to the Avalon legend. So what? Tolkien connected them in his fiction. If Tolkien (or one of his admireres) were to write fiction about the latter-day events on Tol Erissea and its dealing with mortal lands such as Britain, one could just as easily relate Tolkien's Elves with the Fairies (or at least, those "Fairies" that were associated with Avalon) -- which seems an inevitably logical thing to do. I don't at all see why one "ought not" or why this is inconsistent with the sort of stuff Tolkien himself did. >> Who cares if it is a modern construction or not? Does it matter that >> the identification of "Thames" with "Tame Dragon" is >> "strictly a modern construction" entirely invented by >> Tolkien? > > If you were to make the point that Tolkien meant for "Thames" to be > derived from a confusion of "Tame" and "Ham", in the context of "Farmer > Giles", then I'd have to agree. He said so explicitly. He never said > anything to even suggest that Morgan le Fay (for example) ought to be > thought of as one of his Eldar. He did (explicitly) associate Avalon with his mythology. Morgan le Fay is definitely associated with Avalon. Therefore, if one were to suspend disbelief, and assume Tol Erissea is a real island that still exists and is the source of the Avalon legend, one would naturally tend to suspect that legends of Morgan were derived from an Elf (or Maia?) associated with Tol Erissea. If "elves" and "fairies" are really totally unrelated, as you claim, then I guess the local Celts must have just gotten confused about her, and wrongly ascribed her to a category more familiar to them. Whatever. [snip] >> his invented "truth". He made the connection himself >> when he associated the Fairy isle of Avalon with the >> Elvish isle of Erissea.. > >This is the sole point of contact and it means nothing in the context of >existing legend, no more than Greek history or legend is to be conflated >with the history of Numenor, which is similarly identified with >Atlantis. Actually, the Atlantis legend has almost no points of connection with other aspects of Greek mythology. It is not really part of Greek mythology at all. Hercules never visited Atlantis. Morgan did visit Avalon. -- John Whelan ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 18 Dec 1999 03:11:28 GMT References: <83dq7j$jo$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991217221128.23924.00000105@nso-ck.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.cs.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail In article <83dq7j$jo$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" writes: >I think the fundamental point has been mentioned here - Merlin and Arthur >are fundamentally Celtic (and more specifically Welsh) myths - they are not >specifically English myths. > >Tolkien did say several times he disliked Celtic myths, so I'm not sure he >would have wanted to take from celtic mythology to create his myth for >England I cannot see how any myth can possibly considered "specifically English" without including Celtic elements. Like it or not, the Celts remain an important part of England's cultural makeup regardless of who conquered and supplanted them. -- John Whelan ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 20 Date: 18 Dec 1999 11:22:57 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945544980 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:23:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:23:00 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:41:58 GMT, David Salo wrote: > Arnor is a Sindarin (in form) _borrowing_ from Quenya Arna-noore (which >by "haplology", or loss of a syllable in a sequence of two similar >syllables, in this case na-no) becomes Arnoore; in Sindarin, in which final >vowels are rare, and long final syllables even rarer, it becomes Arnor. >Arna (S Arn) means "royal", and is related to Aran "king". > Why this complicated origin? Well, because Tolkien in this case >cheated. He wanted a name that mean "royal land", but since Arn+dor (the >usual Sindarin suffix for "land") would give "Ardor", with unsuitable >suggestions of fire and passion, he decided to make it Arnor, and justify >it as a Quenya borrowing! Did he say that somewhere? I find it a pretty tenuous explanation, as he could have justified it by saying that Arn+dor becomes 'Arnor'. The usual sound pattern in Quenya, at least, is for RND to become RD rather than RN, but that appears somewhat flexible (as in names like 'Numenor' or 'Rohan'). The sounds aren't that distinct. (Neither are the letters. A D-tengwa is just an N-tengwa with a slightly longer stem. I think there's a reason for that.) ###### From: "JM" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:40:35 +0100 Organization: CyberCity Internet Lines: 28 Message-ID: <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: msx-ode-14-8.ppp.cybercity.dk X-Trace: news.cybercity.dk 945542588 69982 212.242.6.200 (18 Dec 1999 18:43:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cybercity.dk NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 1999 18:43:08 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.cybercity.dk!not-for-mail Nystulc wrote in message news:19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com... > In article <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com>, Chris Csernica > writes: > > >Nystulc wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone suppose that perhaps Tolkien had in mind > >> a specific connection between Arthurian legend and > >> his tales of Middle Earth. > > > >No. > > OK. Even though he did not have Arthurian legend in mind when writing his books, it would be strange if he hadn't been influenced by Arthurian legends - or more specifically romances, as he was a romance scholar and did translate _Gawain and the Green Night_ and _Pearl_ into modern English. The plot in both LOTR and The Hobbit are clearly influenced by romance - which explains the difficulty many critics have had in accepting the books as proper novels - thy are not novels, they are romances! Nex ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Message-ID: References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 44 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:52:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.47 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945625947 208.170.95.47 (Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:52:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:52:27 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:41:58 GMT, David Salo wrote: > > > Arnor is a Sindarin (in form) _borrowing_ from Quenya Arna-noore (which > >by "haplology", or loss of a syllable in a sequence of two similar > >syllables, in this case na-no) becomes Arnoore; in Sindarin, in which final > >vowels are rare, and long final syllables even rarer, it becomes Arnor. > >Arna (S Arn) means "royal", and is related to Aran "king". > > Why this complicated origin? Well, because Tolkien in this case > >cheated. He wanted a name that mean "royal land", but since Arn+dor (the > >usual Sindarin suffix for "land") would give "Ardor", with unsuitable > >suggestions of fire and passion, he decided to make it Arnor, and justify > >it as a Quenya borrowing! > > Did he say that somewhere? I find it a pretty tenuous explanation, as he > could have justified it by saying that Arn+dor becomes 'Arnor'. The usual > sound pattern in Quenya, at least, is for RND to become RD rather than RN, > but that appears somewhat flexible (as in names like 'Numenor' or > 'Rohan'). The sounds aren't that distinct. (Neither are the letters. A > D-tengwa is just an N-tengwa with a slightly longer stem. I think there's > a reason for that.) Yes, he did; see Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #347, p. 428 "For instance we have Arnor and Gondor, which [the author] has retained because he desired to avoid _Ardor_. But it can now only (though reasonably) be explained after invention as due to a blending of Q. arnanóre/arnanor with S. arn(a)dor > ardor. The name was in any case given to mean 'royal land' as being the realm of Elendil and so taking precedence of the southern realm." It is a "tenuous" explanation, but only because Tolkien's construction of names was (or became) very exacting and _not_ "flexible"; the names Númenor, Rohan, do not show "flexibility"; the first is Quenya, a short form of Númenóre = núme(n)+nóre "west country"; the latter is Sindarin, *Rochand > Rohan, with a usual reduction of final -nd to -n(n) when completely unstressed; both quite different instances from the syllable-initial d of -dor! The sound rules governing the construction of Tolkien's Sindarin names are certainly elaborate, but they have very few exceptions. The letters ando, númen are of course similar because they represent similar sounds, both being voiced dentals. This is part of the construction of the tengwar system. David Salo ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Message-ID: References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 53 Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:19:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.47 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945627582 208.170.95.47 (Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:19:42 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:19:42 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "JM" wrote: > > >Nystulc wrote: > > >> > > >> Does anyone suppose that perhaps Tolkien had in mind > > >> a specific connection between Arthurian legend and > > >> his tales of Middle Earth. > > Even though he did not have Arthurian legend in mind when writing his books, > it would be strange if he hadn't been influenced by Arthurian legends\ Consider this, from Letter #154, pp. 198-9: "But in this story [The Lord of the Rings] it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations....; and so certain 'mortals' who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen_ and Bilbo, and eventually Sam.... and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. "I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed forever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)" Here Tolkien makes an explicit parallel between Arthur's voyage to Avalon and the voyages of Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli to Tol Eressea - *as if* they were part of the same mythology, or could be part of the same mythology; i.e., _if_ we were to put King Arthur into the universe of Middle-earth, then his Avalonian destination would be Tol Eressea, but one could not expect him to return. Tolkien also discusses Arthurian legend (rather sympathetically) in The Notion Club Papers (published in Sauron Defeated), p. 228-30, etc.; in one place a character, discussing "re-viewing" stories and myths through dreaming, says "I think I could go back to Camelot, _if_ the conditions of my mind and the chances of travel were favourable. The chances are not, as I told you, more than very slightly affected by waking desire. An adventure of that sort would _not_ be the same thing as re-viewing what you'ld call Fifth-century Britain. Neither would it be like making a dream-drama of my own. It would be more like the first, but it would be more active. It would be much less free than the second. It would probably be more difficult than either. I fancy it might be the sort of thing best done by one or two people in concert." Later on in the story, two people succeed (or were intended to succeed, in unwritten parts) in "re-viewing" (as participants) the Fall of Númenor, which I understand is conceived of as having the same borderline mythical and historical character as Camelot. David Salo ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 14:52:59 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <83jdc1$d6g$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.241 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 945633473 13520 12.79.29.241 (19 Dec 1999 19:57:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 1999 19:57:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Öjevind Lång wrote in message news:aX974.2846$W33.6481@nntpserver.swip.net... > How does that fit together with the statement that Tuor was the > only mortal man to become numbered among the Eldar? Is this > another example of Tolkien stitching together things later on to > make them more compatible with his religious beliefs? I don't see why. The passage in question specifically states that they will remain mortal and die... and thus are not numbered amongst the Eldar. Where is the contradiction? ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 20:01:39 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.38.56 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 945630022 212.151.38.56 (Sun, 19 Dec 1999 20:00:22 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 20:00:22 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail David Salo hath writen: [snip] > > Consider this, from Letter #154, pp. 198-9: > > "But in this story [The Lord of the Rings] it is supposed that there may >be certain rare exceptions or accommodations....; and so certain 'mortals' >who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves >to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen_ and Bilbo, and >eventually Sam.... and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of >Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. > "I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea >underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed >forever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of >suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to >mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world. >(In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain >imagining.)" How does that fit together with the statement that Tuor was the only mortal man to become numbered among the Eldar? Is this another example of Tolkien stitching together things later on to make them more compatible with his religious beliefs? Öjevind ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 211-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 39 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 00:06:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945648223 198.172.26.10 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 00:03:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 00:03:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!211-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:52:27 GMT, dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > Yes, he did; see Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #347, p. 428 "For instance we >have Arnor and Gondor, which [the author] has retained because he desired >to avoid _Ardor_. But it can now only (though reasonably) be explained >after invention as due to a blending of Q. arnanóre/arnanor with S. >arn(a)dor > ardor. The name was in any case given to mean 'royal land' as >being the realm of Elendil and so taking precedence of the southern realm." So it's not so much a direct borrowing from Quenya as an alteration of the Sindarin word under the influence of Quenya. >It is a "tenuous" explanation, but only because Tolkien's construction of >names was (or became) very exacting and _not_ "flexible"; the names >Númenor, Rohan, do not show "flexibility"; the first is Quenya, a short >form of Númenóre = núme(n)+nóre "west country"; the latter is Sindarin, >*Rochand > Rohan, with a usual reduction of final -nd to -n(n) when >completely unstressed; both quite different instances from the >syllable-initial d of -dor! The sound rules governing the construction of >Tolkien's Sindarin names are certainly elaborate, but they have very few >exceptions. Why should 'arn(a)dor' necessarily become 'ardor'? Why not 'arnor'? > The letters ando, númen are of course similar because they represent >similar sounds, both being voiced dentals. This is part of the >construction of the tengwar system. There's little difference between 'arnor' and 'ardor' when spoken. There's also very little difference between them when written. So why bother choosing between them at all? Because, as Tolkien explained, 'ardor', when written in the Roman alphabet, has connotations that he wanted to avoid, even though it's a completely unrelated word. But that becomes relevant only when we consider writing a Sindarin word in an alphabet that doesn't handle Sindarin properly. Within the context of the Sindarin language, there's no reason to distinguish between 'arnor' and 'ardor' at all. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 40 Date: 20 Dec 1999 15:51:57 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945733920 198.172.26.10 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:52:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:52:00 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:50:01 GMT, David Salo wrote: >> Why should 'arn(a)dor' necessarily become 'ardor'? Why not 'arnor'? > > Because this is Sindarin and not some other language, and that is just >the way Sindarin works! I realize that, but I'd be a lot more comfortable with it if you had some examples of rn+d becoming 'rd' rather than 'rn'. >> There's little difference between 'arnor' and 'ardor' when spoken. >> There's also very little difference between them when written. So why >> bother choosing between them at all? > > I don't think that a difference of a single phoneme is little, in the >context of language; "she was born on July 3, 1883" and "she was bored on >July 3, 1883" only differ by a single phoneme, but the significance is >entirely changed! There's a significant difference between 'rn' and 'rd' as final sounds, but it's much less noticeable (and can be totally inaudible) when they're followed by a vowel. Of course, in a language in which 'bored' and 'born' mean different things, it's natural to _make_ the difference audible. >> But that becomes relevant only when we consider writing a Sindarin >> word in an alphabet that doesn't handle Sindarin properly. Within the >> context of the Sindarin language, there's no reason to distinguish >> between 'arnor' and 'ardor' at all. > > I can't agree. If you were a student in Fornost Erain, and you wrote >"Ardor" for "Arnor" in one of your papers on national history, you'd be >graded down for spelling errors no matter how obvious your meaning was! I disagree. The 'spelling error' consists only of making the stem a bit too long, which can easily be justified as a normal part of one's handwriting style. And again, I think there's a reason for this. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> <83jdc1$d6g$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:51:13 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.92.40 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 945719391 212.151.92.40 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:49:51 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:49:51 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson hath written: >Öjevind Lång wrote in message > >> How does that fit together with the statement that Tuor was the >> only mortal man to become numbered among the Eldar? Is this >> another example of Tolkien stitching together things later on to >> make them more compatible with his religious beliefs? > >I don't see why. The passage in question specifically states that >they will remain mortal and die... and thus are not numbered amongst >the Eldar. Where is the contradiction? I was thinking of this quote from one of Tolkien's "Letters" in David Salo's post: "I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed forever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)" If mortal "kind" cannot be changed forever, how was it possible for Tuor to be counted among the Eldar, that is to say, become immortal after their fashion? Öjevind "Sheriff Hankins says Ewoks are a protected species. He's full of it. My cousin Leroy impregnated one of them a half year go." (From "The Diary of a Redneck Jedi") ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Message-ID: References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 47 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:50:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 945730201 208.170.95.207 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:50:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:50:01 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:52:27 GMT, dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > > > Yes, he did; see Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #347, p. 428 "For instance we > >have Arnor and Gondor, which [the author] has retained because he desired > >to avoid _Ardor_. But it can now only (though reasonably) be explained > >after invention as due to a blending of Q. arnanóre/arnanor with S. > >arn(a)dor > ardor. The name was in any case given to mean 'royal land' as > >being the realm of Elendil and so taking precedence of the southern realm." > > So it's not so much a direct borrowing from Quenya as an alteration of > the Sindarin word under the influence of Quenya. That's assuming that there was a Sindarin name "ardor" -- but within the historical context of Middle-earth, the name was constructed by the Dúnedain and (unless there is history we don't know about) was _Arnor_ from the beginning -- when writing in Sindarin, anyway. (The Quenya name may have been Arnanóre.) Exactly how or when the "blending" took place is unclear from the passage itself; I find it easiest to suppose that it occurred in the mind of the Dúnadan who invented the name "Arnor". > Why should 'arn(a)dor' necessarily become 'ardor'? Why not 'arnor'? Because this is Sindarin and not some other language, and that is just the way Sindarin works! > There's little difference between 'arnor' and 'ardor' when spoken. > There's also very little difference between them when written. So why > bother choosing between them at all? I don't think that a difference of a single phoneme is little, in the context of language; "she was born on July 3, 1883" and "she was bored on July 3, 1883" only differ by a single phoneme, but the significance is entirely changed! > But that becomes relevant only when we consider writing a Sindarin > word in an alphabet that doesn't handle Sindarin properly. Within the > context of the Sindarin language, there's no reason to distinguish > between 'arnor' and 'ardor' at all. I can't agree. If you were a student in Fornost Erain, and you wrote "Ardor" for "Arnor" in one of your papers on national history, you'd be graded down for spelling errors no matter how obvious your meaning was! David Salo ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:57:56 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 44 Message-ID: <385F4114.21940B48@cable.A2000.nl> References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> <83jdc1$d6g$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 945766684 19210 62.108.12.92 (21 Dec 1999 08:58:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1999 08:58:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Öjevind Lång wrote: > Conrad Dunkerson hath written: > > >Öjevind Lång wrote in message > > > >> How does that fit together with the statement that Tuor was the > >> only mortal man to become numbered among the Eldar? Is this > >> another example of Tolkien stitching together things later on to > >> make them more compatible with his religious beliefs? > > > >I don't see why. The passage in question specifically states that > >they will remain mortal and die... and thus are not numbered amongst > >the Eldar. Where is the contradiction? > > I was thinking of this quote from one of Tolkien's "Letters" in David Salo's > post: > > "I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea > underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed > forever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of > suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to > mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world. > (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain > imagining.)" > > If mortal "kind" cannot be changed forever, how was it possible for Tuor to > be counted among the Eldar, that is to say, become immortal after their > fashion? > > Öjevind The only One able to do so would be Ilúvatar. Occasionally, Ilúvatar did interfere in the affairs of Arda - e.g. when the Númenóreans attacked the Blessed Realm and he changed the face of the earth. So why not in Tuor's case? Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:02:16 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 60 Message-ID: <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 945766953 19210 62.108.12.92 (21 Dec 1999 09:02:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1999 09:02:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: > In article <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com > (Mark Wells) wrote: > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:52:27 GMT, dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > > > > > Yes, he did; see Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #347, p. 428 "For instance we > > >have Arnor and Gondor, which [the author] has retained because he desired > > >to avoid _Ardor_. But it can now only (though reasonably) be explained > > >after invention as due to a blending of Q. arnanóre/arnanor with S. > > >arn(a)dor > ardor. The name was in any case given to mean 'royal land' as > > >being the realm of Elendil and so taking precedence of the southern realm." > > > > So it's not so much a direct borrowing from Quenya as an alteration of > > the Sindarin word under the influence of Quenya. > > That's assuming that there was a Sindarin name "ardor" -- but within the > historical context of Middle-earth, the name was constructed by the > Dúnedain and (unless there is history we don't know about) was _Arnor_ from > the beginning -- when writing in Sindarin, anyway. (The Quenya name may > have been Arnanóre.) Exactly how or when the "blending" took place is > unclear from the passage itself; I find it easiest to suppose that it > occurred in the mind of the Dúnadan who invented the name "Arnor". > > > Why should 'arn(a)dor' necessarily become 'ardor'? Why not 'arnor'? > > Because this is Sindarin and not some other language, and that is just > the way Sindarin works! > > > There's little difference between 'arnor' and 'ardor' when spoken. > > There's also very little difference between them when written. So why > > bother choosing between them at all? > > I don't think that a difference of a single phoneme is little, in the > context of language; "she was born on July 3, 1883" and "she was bored on > July 3, 1883" only differ by a single phoneme, but the significance is > entirely changed! > > > But that becomes relevant only when we consider writing a Sindarin > > word in an alphabet that doesn't handle Sindarin properly. Within the > > context of the Sindarin language, there's no reason to distinguish > > between 'arnor' and 'ardor' at all. > > I can't agree. If you were a student in Fornost Erain, and you wrote > "Ardor" for "Arnor" in one of your papers on national history, you'd be > graded down for spelling errors no matter how obvious your meaning was! > > David Salo And if you wrote Quenya and used the `ando'? Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> <83jdc1$d6g$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <385F4114.21940B48@cable.A2000.nl> Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:15:53 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.87.119 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 945792871 212.151.87.119 (Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:14:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:14:31 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail R. Vink hath written: >Öjevind Lång wrote: > [snip] >> >> I was thinking of this quote from one of Tolkien's "Letters" in David Salo's >> post: >> >> "I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea >> underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed >> forever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of >> suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to >> mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world. >> (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain >> imagining.)" >> >> If mortal "kind" cannot be changed forever, how was it possible for Tuor to >> be counted among the Eldar, that is to say, become immortal after their >> fashion? >> >> Öjevind > >The only One able to do so would be Ilúvatar. Occasionally, Ilúvatar did >interfere in the affairs of Arda - e.g. when the Númenóreans attacked the >Blessed Realm and he changed the face of the earth. So why not in Tuor's case? That makes sense. Öjevind ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:01:06 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <83p14s$2i8$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <3857450A.D3F702C3@ihwy.com> <19991217004844.28209.00000631@ngol02.news.cs.com> <83gkjs$24au$1@news.cybercity.dk> <83jdc1$d6g$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.74 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 945817564 2632 12.79.56.74 (21 Dec 1999 23:06:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Dec 1999 23:06:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Öjevind Lång wrote in message news:zLv74.3530$W33.7161@nntpserver.swip.net... > If mortal "kind" cannot be changed forever, how was it possible > for Tuor to be counted among the Eldar, that is to say, become > immortal after their fashion? Ooops. Color me dense. I'd assumed your were referring to Frodo and the other mortals listed as examples of others becoming Eldar because they went to elvenhome. As to what you actually meant (which makes a great deal more sense than what you didn't mean)... hmmm, good question. I consider it an exception. Eru makes the rules... and he can change them when he wants to. Luthien for instance. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 191-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 62 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:31:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945854936 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!191-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:02:16 +0100, "R. Vink" wrote: >> I can't agree. If you were a student in Fornost Erain, and you wrote >> "Ardor" for "Arnor" in one of your papers on national history, you'd be >> graded down for spelling errors no matter how obvious your meaning was! >> >> David Salo > >And if you wrote Quenya and used the `ando'? You _wouldn't_ write in Quenya; that would be roughly equivalent to a student in a Spanish-speaking country turning in an exam in Latin. Not precisely equivalent; a student at Fornost Erain might very well receive instruction from a native speaker of Quenya, or maybe a co-inventor of Quenya. (There aren't too many ancient Romans left in Spanish-speaking countries.) The Quenya name of the place is probably 'Arnórë'. I think an 'ando' would be entirely correct here, as 'nórë' comes from the root NDOR (just as we use the 'ungwë' to represent the N in 'Noldor', because it comes from NGOL, right?) but I Could Be Wrong As Usual. According to a strict reading of Appendix E, Sindarin should represents /nd/ as 'ando numen', but /nd/ doesn't occur very often in Sindarin. (See below.) I think it would make sense to use 'ando' for /nd/ in Sindarin, even when it's reduced to /n/. Among other things, it maintains compatibility with Quenya for what is essentially the same sound. (Of course, as I've said, there's not much difference between an 'ando' and a 'numen' when written either. I'd be willing to say that the difference between 'Arnor' and 'Ardor' would go completely unnoticed by a speaker of Sindarin, and thus Tolkien's decision hinged entirely on how a reader might misinterpret 'Ardor' as a borrowing from English.) While I was looking this up, I thought I'd take a break from my usual Uninformed Speculations and look up the From LOTR, Appendix E (p. 489 in my edition): "In Sindarin the combinations /ng/, /nd/, /mb/, which were specially favoured in the Eldarin languages at an earlier stage, suffered various changes. /mb/ became /m/ in all cases, but still counted as a long consonant for purposes of stress (see below), and is thus written /mm/ in cases where otherwise the stress might be in doubt.[1] /ng/ remained unchanged except finally where it became the simple nasal (as in English /sing/). /nd/ became /nn/ usually, as /Ennor/ 'Middle-earth', Q. /Endóre/; but remained /nd/ at the end of fully accented monosyllables such as /thond/ 'root' (cf. /Morthond/ 'Blackroot'), and also before /r/, as /Andros/ 'long-foam'. This /nd/ is also seen in some ancient names derived from an older period, such as /Nargothrond/, /Gondolin/, /Beleriand/. In the Third Age final /nd/ in long words had become /n/ from /nn/, as in /Ithilien/, /Rohan/, /Anórien/." So, now that we have Tolkien's statement that /nd/ usually becomes /nn/ in Sindarin, for which he uses en + dor -> 'Ennor' as an example, _why_ would we expect arn + dor -> 'Ardor'? ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Message-ID: References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> <3861EB6B.5DF47171@cable.A2000.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 46 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:55:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 946065312 208.170.95.77 (Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:55:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:55:12 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo > Mark Wells wrote: > > > From LOTR, Appendix E (p. 489 in my edition): > > > > "In Sindarin the combinations /ng/, /nd/, /mb/, which were specially > > favoured in the Eldarin languages at an earlier stage, suffered > > various changes. /mb/ became /m/ in all cases, but still counted as a > > long consonant for purposes of stress (see below), and is thus written > > /mm/ in cases where otherwise the stress might be in doubt.[1] /ng/ > > remained unchanged except finally where it became the simple nasal (as > > in English /sing/). /nd/ became /nn/ usually, as /Ennor/ > > 'Middle-earth', Q. /Endóre/; but remained /nd/ at the end of fully > > accented monosyllables such as /thond/ 'root' (cf. /Morthond/ > > 'Blackroot'), and also before /r/, as /Andros/ 'long-foam'. This /nd/ > > is also seen in some ancient names derived from an older period, such > > as /Nargothrond/, /Gondolin/, /Beleriand/. In the Third Age final > > /nd/ in long words had become /n/ from /nn/, as in /Ithilien/, > > /Rohan/, /Anórien/." > > > > So, now that we have Tolkien's statement that /nd/ usually becomes > > /nn/ in Sindarin, for which he uses en + dor -> 'Ennor' as an example, > > _why_ would we expect arn + dor -> 'Ardor'? Because this is a different case. Here the n is sandwiched between two different consonants, and falls out, as it does in the following examples: pel+arn+ci^r (enclosure (of) royal ships) = pelargir morn+pen (dark person) = morben arn+gonath (royal stones) = argonath morn+megil (black sword) = mormegil morn+ndor (black land) = mordor born+ngil (red-hot star) = borgil Also compare what happens to elements beginning in nd, ng, when following r, l: mor+ngoth (black enemy) = morgoth gil+ndis (star lady) = gildis her+ndir (master man) = herdir This is a very regular rule. Just as in these cases, we must expect arn+ndor (royal land) = ardor .... and not "arnor", or else we'd have Gilnis, Hernir, Mornor, Morn~oth, Born~il (with n~ = ng in "sing"), etc. David Salo ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 15:41:05 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 64 Message-ID: <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> <3861EB6B.5DF47171@cable.A2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: weber.a2000.nl 946132881 18992 62.108.12.92 (25 Dec 1999 14:41:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Dec 1999 14:41:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsgate.cistron.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: > > Mark Wells wrote: > > > > > From LOTR, Appendix E (p. 489 in my edition): > > > > > > "In Sindarin the combinations /ng/, /nd/, /mb/, which were specially > > > favoured in the Eldarin languages at an earlier stage, suffered > > > various changes. /mb/ became /m/ in all cases, but still counted as a > > > long consonant for purposes of stress (see below), and is thus written > > > /mm/ in cases where otherwise the stress might be in doubt.[1] /ng/ > > > remained unchanged except finally where it became the simple nasal (as > > > in English /sing/). /nd/ became /nn/ usually, as /Ennor/ > > > 'Middle-earth', Q. /Endóre/; but remained /nd/ at the end of fully > > > accented monosyllables such as /thond/ 'root' (cf. /Morthond/ > > > 'Blackroot'), and also before /r/, as /Andros/ 'long-foam'. This /nd/ > > > is also seen in some ancient names derived from an older period, such > > > as /Nargothrond/, /Gondolin/, /Beleriand/. In the Third Age final > > > /nd/ in long words had become /n/ from /nn/, as in /Ithilien/, > > > /Rohan/, /Anórien/." > > > > > > So, now that we have Tolkien's statement that /nd/ usually becomes > > > /nn/ in Sindarin, for which he uses en + dor -> 'Ennor' as an example, > > > _why_ would we expect arn + dor -> 'Ardor'? > > Because this is a different case. Here the n is sandwiched between two > different consonants, and falls out, as it does in the following examples: > > pel+arn+ci^r (enclosure (of) royal ships) = pelargir > morn+pen (dark person) = morben > arn+gonath (royal stones) = argonath > morn+megil (black sword) = mormegil > morn+ndor (black land) = mordor > born+ngil (red-hot star) = borgil > > Also compare what happens to elements beginning in nd, ng, when following > r, l: > > mor+ngoth (black enemy) = morgoth > gil+ndis (star lady) = gildis > her+ndir (master man) = herdir > > This is a very regular rule. Just as in these cases, we must expect > > arn+ndor (royal land) = ardor .... and not "arnor", or else we'd have > Gilnis, Hernir, Mornor, Morn~oth, Born~il (with n~ = ng in "sing"), etc. > > David Salo You got me thinking instead of merely nodding. I tend to be swayed, except that the rule doesn't seem to work in Eärnil and Eärnur, nor, for a different reason, in Valandil and Valandur. Are these the notorious exceptions, is the rule less regular than it seems, or what? Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Message-ID: References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> <3861EB6B.5DF47171@cable.A2000.nl> <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 18:48:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.183 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 946147733 208.170.95.183 (Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:48:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:48:53 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl>, "R. Vink" wrote: > You got me thinking instead of merely nodding. I tend to be swayed, except that > the rule doesn't seem to work in Eärnil and Eärnur, nor, for a different > reason, in Valandil and Valandur. Are these the notorious exceptions, is the > rule less regular than it seems, or what? It's a regular rule for Sindarin: it doesn't work at all in Quenya! In Quenya, -nd- remains intact between vowels, so Vala+ndil = Valandil, Vala+ndur = Valandur. The n can drop out between consonants, just as in Sindarin, e.g. Mar+ndil = Mardil, Anar+ndil = Anardil, Isil+ndur = Isildur; however, in some compounds, probably for the most part later ones, the nd- element was treated as if it were absolutely initial. When initial, nd-, mb- became n-, m-; e.g. *ndúmen > númen "west" *mbar > mar "home" So *ndil > nil and *ndur > nur; and Eär+nil = Eärnil, Eär+nur = Earnur, next to Eärendil, Eärendur. Cf. also Valimar, Eldamar rather than Valimbar, Eldambar; all of these instances of nd > n, mb > m non-initially are however somewhat unusual in Quenya. David Salo ###### Message-ID: <38679F61.1028DDC8@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> <3861EB6B.5DF47171@cable.A2000.nl> <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl> <38674C25.6F467F4E@cable.A2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:18:25 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 946315429 24.128.99.214 (Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:23:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:23:49 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail "R. Vink" wrote: > David Salo wrote: > > It's a regular rule for Sindarin: it doesn't work at all in Quenya! > > In Quenya, -nd- remains intact between vowels, so Vala+ndil = Valandil, > > Vala+ndur = Valandur. > > I thought it was Valar+ndil, Lover of the Valar, plural, in which case one would > expect Valardil. Could you give a source for Vala+ndil? I wasn't able to find > one. In the Lost Road 'Valandil' > 'God-friend' (*Vala-friend). Here's a hazy word which relates somewhat to this thread, consider 'Eriador': both Ed Kloczko and someone, hey David Salo I think it was, :) give Eriador a possible etymology* that ends the 'eria-' element with a consonant to likely explain why we don't see 'Eriannor' instead of 'Eriador' in the land of 'Pelennor' and 'Mordor'. [*only one of such, back in the mists of 1996 anyway; er, and I hope I haven't misrepresented David's or EK's thoughts here] Earlier in this thread the association of the falcon word 'Merlin' drew a parallel to the bird associations of the Istar Radagast/Aiwendil. But there's more to the case with 'Merlin', (ooh, back on topic even), in that the name Merlin likely derived from a place name in Wales, and was further possibly altered to avoid a 'foul smelling' French word. The Galfridian 'Merlinus' is most often said to come from a slightly skewed translation of Welsh 'Myrddin' (Caer Fyrddin) <> Moridunum meaning 'Sea-fortress' -- in this case a consonant change for, ahem, coincidental reasons, and no bird associations -- and then we have prof. Jean Markale adding his theory of 'Merle' 'Blackbird' into the cauldron! (um, but I tend to go with the place name theory personally though) Just an example of the variable associations, or alterations even, of a name wound up in both a 'mythic fog' and history. And what I'm trying to blither out is that sometimes these type of little 'complications' can lend a 'realer' feel to Myth -- or maybe a mythic feel to reality? :) I think the Arnor 'reasoning' only lends more reality to JRRT's invented languages (in story reason of course), as it mimics those confusing results in 'real' languages due to real history. Tolkien knew this, and the Quenya 'blend' could have occurred in the history of Middle-earth after all, a believable way to circumvent those pesky Sindarin consonant patterns. -- Cian And a 'Merlin' is also a kind of Welsh pony! ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:23:17 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 47 Message-ID: <38674C25.6F467F4E@cable.A2000.nl> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> <3861EB6B.5DF47171@cable.A2000.nl> <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 946293820 3559 62.108.12.92 (27 Dec 1999 11:23:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 1999 11:23:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: > In article <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl>, "R. Vink" > wrote: > > > You got me thinking instead of merely nodding. I tend to be swayed, > except that > > the rule doesn't seem to work in Eärnil and Eärnur, nor, for a different > > reason, in Valandil and Valandur. Are these the notorious exceptions, is the > > rule less regular than it seems, or what? > > It's a regular rule for Sindarin: it doesn't work at all in Quenya! > > In Quenya, -nd- remains intact between vowels, so Vala+ndil = Valandil, > Vala+ndur = Valandur. I thought it was Valar+ndil, Lover of the Valar, plural, in which case one would expect Valardil. Could you give a source for Vala+ndil? I wasn't able to find one. > The n can drop out between consonants, just as in > Sindarin, e.g. Mar+ndil = Mardil, Anar+ndil = Anardil, Isil+ndur = Isildur; > however, in some compounds, probably for the most part later ones, the nd- > element was treated as if it were absolutely initial. When initial, nd-, > mb- became n-, m-; > > e.g. *ndúmen > númen "west" > *mbar > mar "home" > > So *ndil > nil and *ndur > nur; and Eär+nil = Eärnil, Eär+nur = Earnur, > next to Eärendil, Eärendur. Cf. also Valimar, Eldamar rather than > Valimbar, Eldambar; all of these instances of nd > n, mb > m non-initially > are however somewhat unusual in Quenya. > > David Salo A later development, then, if I understand it correctly . Such things do serve to make the language seem all the more real. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:19:21 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 36 Message-ID: <38688EA9.70FD8CF1@cable.A2000.nl> References: <19991215010412.04715.00000083@ngol08.news.cs.com> <16834-38575061-1@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <385d6ed3.1597707@news.pc-intouch.com> <385F4218.7FB63E84@cable.A2000.nl> <38608f81.136389508@news.pc-intouch.com> <3861EB6B.5DF47171@cable.A2000.nl> <3864D780.A48AD86B@cable.A2000.nl> <38674C25.6F467F4E@cable.A2000.nl> <38679F61.1028DDC8@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 946376386 15533 62.108.12.92 (28 Dec 1999 10:19:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 1999 10:19:46 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.flash.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsgate.cistron.nl!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Cian wrote: > "R. Vink" wrote: > > > David Salo wrote: > > > It's a regular rule for Sindarin: it doesn't work at all in Quenya! > > > In Quenya, -nd- remains intact between vowels, so Vala+ndil = Valandil, > > > Vala+ndur = Valandur. > > > > I thought it was Valar+ndil, Lover of the Valar, plural, in which case one would > > expect Valardil. Could you give a source for Vala+ndil? I wasn't able to find > > one. > > In the Lost Road 'Valandil' > 'God-friend' (*Vala-friend). > > Here's a hazy word which relates somewhat to this thread, consider 'Eriador': both > Ed Kloczko and someone, hey David Salo I think it was, :) give Eriador a possible > etymology* that ends the 'eria-' element with a consonant to likely explain why we > don't see 'Eriannor' instead of 'Eriador' in the land of 'Pelennor' and 'Mordor'. > [*only one of such, back in the mists of 1996 anyway; er, and I hope I haven't > misrepresented David's or EK's thoughts here] > I could have guessed it was somewhere in the HoMe series! Thank you. Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html