From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Why does Cirdin look so old? Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:14:24 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 5 Message-ID: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-254.honey-damsel.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 945105189 2170 62.137.30.254 (13 Dec 1999 17:13:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 1999 17:13:09 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Is it ever explained why cirdin looks so old and haggard, while many of his fellow elves from a similar generation don't age? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:23:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.176 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945109206 207.224.147.176 (Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:20:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:20:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" wrote: >Is it ever explained why cirdin looks so old and haggard, while many of his >fellow elves from a similar generation don't age? Cirdan was either born during the Great Journey or prior to it (although he does not appear to be one of the first 144 Elves). I can't think of any other Elf in THE LORD OF THE RINGS whose age even begins to approach Cirdan's. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:02:23 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8341n1$7$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.68 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 945130017 7 12.79.56.68 (14 Dec 1999 00:06:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1999 00:06:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Alan Graham wrote in message news:8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk... > Is it ever explained why cirdin looks so old and haggard, while > many of his fellow elves from a similar generation don't age? Not definitively. However, we do not encounter any elves who we know to be of similar generation to Cirdan in the Third Age. They might all be as old. JRRT also indicates in some passages that the land of Aman arrests aging, such that plants and animals continue unchanged there for many long years. However, he contradicts this in other areas saying that the Numenoreans would have burned out and died the faster in Aman. Anyway, it is possible that Elves do not age in part because of whatever 'spiritual' power is inborn within them and which Aman (and the two trees) seemed to strengthen. Cirdan, being vastly older than most elves and never having been to Aman, may simply have been the only elf around long enough to begin showing his age. Though... there is one other elf who is old in appearance, but from a very early version of JRRT's stories; "There he wandered breathing the airs and watching the sun rise above the strange roofs of the town, when behold the aged door-ward was before him ... 'Nay sir, may Tevildo Prince of Cats harry him for daring to perch in a garden that is in the care of Rumil. Know you that the Noldoli grow old astounding slow, and yet I have grey hairs in the study of all the tongues of the Valar and of Eldar." BoLT, The Music of the Ainur ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:40:40 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 24 Message-ID: <833i1d$9kn$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-52.hytrin.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 945113965 9879 62.136.72.52 (13 Dec 1999 19:39:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 1999 19:39:25 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!peerbox.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net>... >In article <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" wrote: >>Is it ever explained why cirdin looks so old and haggard, while many of his >>fellow elves from a similar generation don't age? > >Cirdan was either born during the Great Journey or prior to it (although he >does not appear to be one of the first 144 Elves). I can't think of any other >Elf in THE LORD OF THE RINGS whose age even begins to approach Cirdan's. But isn't it a given about elves that they do not age in such an obviously mortal way? Otherwise all the elves in Middle Earth or the undying lands will one day look so old. Al ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <833k6u$1ck_002@news.uswest.net> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net> <833i1d$9kn$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:16:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.133 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945115956 209.181.118.133 (Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:12:36 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:12:36 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <833i1d$9kn$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net>... >>In article <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" > wrote: >>>Is it ever explained why cirdin looks so old and haggard, while many of >>>his fellow elves from a similar generation don't age? >> >>Cirdan was either born during the Great Journey or prior to it (although he >>does not appear to be one of the first 144 Elves). I can't think of any >>other Elf in THE LORD OF THE RINGS whose age even begins to approach Cirdan's. > > >But isn't it a given about elves that they do not age in such an obviously >mortal way? Is looking old after the equivalent of 10-11,000 years really aging "in such an obviously mortal way"? Actually, Cirdan, being of the kin of Thingol, had grey hair to begin with. Celeborn also had grey hair (silver hair -- whatever), and he was another of Thingol's relatives. >Otherwise all the elves in Middle Earth or the undying lands will one day >look so old. They may. They may not. It's hard to say. -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:03:12 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 6 Message-ID: <9589-3855CF90-7@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQnf60VhO/xcnQ+aagOtXhIHy1m6QIVAK86DZqgYqAUL9JxlXbEjlfozEXM Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail "When 7000 years old you reach, look as good you will not..." Sorry about that. I just had to say it.... --Dave ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3855e037.192601570@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net> <833i1d$9kn$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <833k6u$1ck_002@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 136-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:17:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945152072 198.172.26.10 (Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:14:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:14:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!136-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:16:30 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>But isn't it a given about elves that they do not age in such an obviously >>mortal way? > >Is looking old after the equivalent of 10-11,000 years really aging "in such >an obviously mortal way"? Actually, Cirdan, being of the kin of Thingol, had >grey hair to begin with. Celeborn also had grey hair (silver hair -- >whatever), and he was another of Thingol's relatives. I'm not sure it's relevant, but Cirdan (as the oldest Elf in Middle-earth) had seen most of the tragic history of the Elves play out during his lifetime. Ten thousand years of the typical Elven sorrow about the changing and decaying mortal world might give the guy some wrinkles. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:11:27 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <836fj4$a1b$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> <833djv$28o_004@news.uswest.net> <833i1d$9kn$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <833k6u$1ck_002@news.uswest.net> <3855e037.192601570@news.pc-intouch.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.212 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 945209764 10283 12.79.29.212 (14 Dec 1999 22:16:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 1999 22:16:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:3855e037.192601570@news.pc-intouch.com... > I'm not sure it's relevant, but Cirdan (as the oldest Elf in > Middle-earth) had seen most of the tragic history of the Elves > play out during his lifetime. Ten thousand years of the typical > Elven sorrow about the changing and decaying mortal world might > give the guy some wrinkles. The ~10,000 years figure doesn't really work for Cirdan. Even taking the older calculations Cirdan was at least 13,000 years old. However, by those calculations Galadriel would be around 10,000 years old and yet NOT visibly aged in LotR. This is one of many reasons I tend to prefer JRRT's final conception of Valian Years; which makes Cirdan well more than 50,000 years old while Galadriel is 'only' in the neighborhood of 15,000 years. ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 15 Dec 1999 05:11:12 GMT References: <836fj4$a1b$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991215001112.06042.00000114@ngol03.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail I do not think that Elvish "aging" is a function of time only, but rather of stress and other factors. I suspect that in the Blessed Realm, for instance, any damage inflicted by "aging" would actually heal, and this might even occur to some degree for Elves in Middle Earth, provided they kept themselves adequately comfortable, and ate high-quality elvish cooking, etc. I believe that the Silmarillion does document a case of an elf who appeared extremely aged after being tormented by Morgoth. I assumed that he would have recovered given adequate time.. Another factor might be reproduction. I know elves lose a part of their spiritual energy when they have children. Perhaps Cirdan knocked off one too many, and lost the energy needed to maintain his body at the highest levels. Or perhaps he gave alot of spiritual energy to other creative efforts. Or perhaps Cirdan just liked looking like an old guy, and did not devote as much of his spiritual energy to his physical maintenance. Just some random thoughts. I'm not even quite sure how it is that we know that Cirdan looked aged. -- John Whelan In article <836fj4$a1b$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >Mark Wells wrote in message >news:3855e037.192601570@news.pc-intouch.com... > >> I'm not sure it's relevant, but Cirdan (as the oldest Elf in >> Middle-earth) had seen most of the tragic history of the Elves >> play out during his lifetime. Ten thousand years of the typical >> Elven sorrow about the changing and decaying mortal world might >> give the guy some wrinkles. > >The ~10,000 years figure doesn't really work for Cirdan. Even >taking the older calculations Cirdan was at least 13,000 years old. >However, by those calculations Galadriel would be around 10,000 >years old and yet NOT visibly aged in LotR. This is one of many >reasons I tend to prefer JRRT's final conception of Valian Years; >which makes Cirdan well more than 50,000 years old while Galadriel >is 'only' in the neighborhood of 15,000 years. > ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Dec 1999 05:16:20 GMT References: <836fj4$a1b$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991215001620.27845.00000177@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!portc05.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Hi there, I haven't checked in for a couple of days, but reading the postings I've noticed that nobody has mentioned the idea that how Cirdan, (or Galadriel or Elrond for that matter,) might look the way he does because it reflects his _spirit_ Given that the elves are immortal, but _not_ Ainu, maybe their looks start reflecting that spirit in the same way the Ainu can, in a more dramatic fashion don a physical aspect appropriate to their being. So for us, and in LotR at least I think Tolkien writes with a mortal's perception of detail, Cirdan will look old and wise to the hobbits, Ellesar & us. We see it as age because those attributes seem to be associated with age to mortals, but to an elf he would simply look wise as opposed to warrior-like (although he did fight wit Gil-Galad) or craft-wise. Just a thought, 'cause I can't imagine otherwise why an adult immortal would ever show signs of aging. Wait, another option: what if that is the elven spirit show a physical manifistation a weariness with the world. Couldn't they just wither and their spirits depart to dwell for a while in Mando's halls? Cirdan had been through a lot and maybe he was sticking around only to pilot that last ship West. Have you ever seen a dying person who willed themselves to stay long enough for a particular event to occur? Sometimes they look worse toward the end than the disease they had could ever have done on it's own. Food for thought. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Dec 1999 05:20:09 GMT References: <19991215001112.06042.00000114@ngol03.news.cs.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991215002009.18491.00001298@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail <> That's what I'm wondering. Do we have the actual description handy? Just because Cirdan has silver hair and a long beard does not necessarily mean his face and body looked wrinkled and aged like a Man's body. -King " I know what fakery looks like" -James Randi ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8380cm$1lo_010@news.uswest.net> References: <19991215001112.06042.00000114@ngol03.news.cs.com> <19991215002009.18491.00001298@ng-fv1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:08:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.72 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 945259571 209.181.118.72 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:06:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:06:11 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991215002009.18491.00001298@ng-fv1.aol.com>, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote: ><is that we know that Cirdan looked aged. > >-- John Whelan>> > >That's what I'm wondering. Do we have the actual description handy? Just >because Cirdan has silver hair and a long beard does not necessarily mean his >face and body looked wrinkled and aged like a Man's body. As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars, and he looked at them and bowed, and said: 'All is now ready.' -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why does Cirdin look so old? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 18:25:53 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <8339f5$23q$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> <8341n1$7$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.ab X-Server-Date: 17 Dec 1999 23:17:28 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-MUC.ecrc.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail With 12½ months remaining in the millennium, conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > JRRT also indicates in some passages that the >land of Aman arrests aging, such that plants and animals continue >unchanged there for many long years. However, he contradicts this >in other areas saying that the Numenoreans would have burned out and >died the faster in Aman. I think those two can be reconciled, in the following way: The plants and animals of Valinor belonged there, and the Numenoreans would not have. Remember the bit in /UT/ about the Palantiri, where it mattered greatly whether the user had the right to use the stone? Perhaps it was the same sort of thing with aging of mortals in Valinor. I think we can also reconcile this with Frodo and Bilbo going there for healing, because again they were going there as invited by Gandalf and/or Arwen, presumably with permission of the Valar either explicitly or through delegated discretion of Gandalf. Also, they were going *not* to try to seize immortality but for healing before they died. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) Inklings site list: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GregorArlt/inklings_sites.html more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm