From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:29:55 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQnbqzn/D3WtRadFOuFXMU0otDgWAIUCFVrK5gJtS+zvYBEpFt5QGNBWjc= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Mark Welles wrote: >these swords had some nasty side >effects, like their tendency to end up in >the chests of their own wielders. LOL Actually, it was only Anglachel/Gurthang that did this, and it was due more to the curse of Morgoth than any malice of the blade's own. I don't think Anguirel ended up inside Maeglin, unless Tuor gutted him with it before hurling him over the wall. --Dave ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:01:45 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.142 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 944964373 3924 12.79.56.142 (12 Dec 1999 02:06:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1999 02:06:13 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote in message news:5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > Actually, it was only Anglachel/Gurthang that did this, and it was > due more to the curse of Morgoth than any malice of the blade's > own. Possibly, though there was also; "But as Thingol turned the hilt of Anglachel towards Beleg, Melian looked at the blade; and she said: 'There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'" Silm, Of Turin Turambar Another point from this section of the text relevant to the overall discussion is that when Beleg asked for a "sword of worth" (as his blade was no match for Orcish armor) Thingol offered him any blade he wished except Aranruth. Beleg chose Anglachel, implying that it might have been the best available, but similarly Thingol's one limitation suggests that Aranruth was a better blade still. Very much based on assumption in both cases (Beleg might not have been a very good judge of swords), but it speaks to the whole question of whether Anguirel would really have been a better weapon than Glamdring. If the blade of the King of Doriath were a better weapon then the blade of the King of Gondolin might well be assumed so too. Overall I don't think we have much to actually go on here, there isn't exactly a precise set of rankings. :) ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) References: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 31 Date: 11 Dec 1999 21:59:28 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944978370 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:59:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:59:30 CST Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:01:45 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >"But as Thingol turned the hilt of Anglachel towards Beleg, Melian >looked at the blade; and she said: 'There is malice in this sword. >The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love >the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'" >Silm, Of Turin Turambar That's why I suspect Anguirel would be similarly treacherous. >Another point from this section of the text relevant to the overall >discussion is that when Beleg asked for a "sword of worth" (as his >blade was no match for Orcish armor) Thingol offered him any blade >he wished except Aranruth. Beleg chose Anglachel, implying that it >might have been the best available, but similarly Thingol's one >limitation suggests that Aranruth was a better blade still. Very Thingol had hundreds of swords in his armories. I wouldn't expect him to keep track of the quality of each of them relative to his own. >much based on assumption in both cases (Beleg might not have been a >very good judge of swords), but it speaks to the whole question of >whether Anguirel would really have been a better weapon than >Glamdring. If the blade of the King of Doriath were a better Unless whoever made Aranruth or Glamdring found another metallic meteorite and processed it into steel, Eol's swords were made of better material. (I suppose the quality of workmanship might have offset this, but Eol was reasonably competent. He learned his craft from the Dwarves.) ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:48:46 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8442-3853292E-81@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhNeG2bIWWNDW03LB9CKCRcVlMwFAhUAmXjkdmgjbij5itCZ5T0fi0eQw20= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >Possibly, though there was also; I admit that I did overlook this, although the malice seems more to me a reflection of Eol's dislike and resentment for practically every other elf that lived in Beleriand than a direct curse, like that of Morgoth (which I think had far more to do with the death of Beleg and Turin). However, this sword does have a personality all its own. As for Aranruth being off-limits, that's not surprising given that it _was_ Thingol's personal sword. He just didn't want anyone else playing with his toys. --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 01:17:12 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8441-38533DE8-257@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAgUCHv7DhiBvwitT67yLFfAPqVokCFQCPsUjjqrv+oXTmVB81jUGKsCGmxg== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Mark Welles wrote: >He learned his craft from the Dwarves. But didn't _all_ of the elves of ME who knew how to forge weapons before the return of the Noldor learn it from the dwarves? --Dave ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:05:15 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <82vvpn$2gf$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.23.2 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 944996983 2575 12.79.23.2 (12 Dec 1999 11:09:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1999 11:09:43 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:slrn856eb7.1jo.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > Unless whoever made Aranruth or Glamdring found another metallic > meteorite and processed it into steel, Eol's swords were made of > better material. My understanding is that historically speaking the value of meteoric iron was that it was readily available on the surface prior to the days when iron mining made the stuff more abundant. There was also of course a certain 'mystical significance' attached to it, and that certainly seems to be JRRT's intent as well. However, where is it written that it must be a better material than any other available? I suspect Mithril was of better quality, though likely completely unknown in Beleriand at that time. There is also the whole question of 'magic'... as both Eol's swords and those of the other Elves in Beleriand seem clearly to have been more than simple metal. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) References: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <82vvpn$2gf$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 49 Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:42:35 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 945034959 198.172.26.10 (Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:42:39 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:42:39 CST Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:05:15 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> Unless whoever made Aranruth or Glamdring found another metallic >> meteorite and processed it into steel, Eol's swords were made of >> better material. > >My understanding is that historically speaking the value of meteoric >iron was that it was readily available on the surface prior to the >days when iron mining made the stuff more abundant. There was also You're probably right, but meteorites also contain other materials (such as heavy metals) that might give a sword made of meteoric iron special properties. This appears to be Tolkien's intent. As I posted above, Eol's swords would "cleave all earth-delved iron." This implies, BTW, that much of the iron used in Beleriand at the time _was_ earth-delved; the Dwarves, the Noldor, and Morgoth all engaged in iron mining. >of course a certain 'mystical significance' attached to it, and that >certainly seems to be JRRT's intent as well. However, where is it >written that it must be a better material than any other available? >I suspect Mithril was of better quality, though likely completely Sure, mithril isn't "earth-delved iron", but as you say, they didn't have it in Beleriand. The only deposit of mithril in Middle-earth was in the area of Khazad-dum. (I suppose some mithril artifacts might have found their way into Beleriand, since the Dwarves were pretty active traders, but they were also pretty secretive and wouldn't have told anyone what it is. I suppose the Noldor might have brought some mithril from Aman, since it was apparently quite abundant there. It was a major constituent of Earendil's ship. But I still don't know why anyone would make a sword out of mithril. The major advantages of it over steel are that (1) it's harder, (2) it doesn't rust or tarnish, and (3) it's lighter. (Hence the common speculation that mithril is what we know as titanium.) These qualities make it really useful for shields, armor, and other things that need to be tough and wear-resistant but light enough to carry around. It doesn't make sense for swords, because a sword needs to be fairly heavy, or it won't carry enough momentum to hack off body parts or anything. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:26:03 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 49 Message-ID: <8317ma$7mu$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <82vvpn$2gf$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.145 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 945037834 7902 12.79.28.145 (12 Dec 1999 22:30:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 1999 22:30:34 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:slrn8585k8.28q.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > Sure, mithril isn't "earth-delved iron", but as you say, they > didn't have it in Beleriand. The only deposit of mithril in > Middle-earth was in the area of Khazad-dum. Actually, there are references to mithril being found in Aglarond and even Numenor as well. Once JRRT came up with the metal (while writing the Moria section of LotR) it began to find its way into the older stories slowly. > (I suppose some mithril artifacts might have found their way into > Beleriand, since the Dwarves were pretty active traders, but they > were also pretty secretive and wouldn't have told anyone what it > is. Probably not. Most references seem to indicate that it wasn't found until the Second Age. > I suppose the Noldor might have brought some mithril from Aman, > since it was apparently quite abundant there. It was a major > constituent of Earendil's ship. One of those later emmendations which wasn't fully explained. > But I still don't know why anyone would make a sword out of > mithril. ... > It doesn't make sense for swords, because a sword needs to be > fairly heavy, or it won't carry enough momentum to hack off body > parts or anything. Actually, most swords aren't very heavy. A stabbing or slashing sword would not need the weight at all... and hacking swords are generally quite crude by comparison. I've generally pictured Eol's blades as great heavy monstrosities that would go through the enemy sword, through their armor, and then right through them... but requiring great strength to use and not being built for swift fencing - something like a large hand and a half sword. In contrast I generally think of the Noldorin blades as more similar to slender longswords or very heavy rapiers... fast and agile with a point for stabbing through the enemy's armor and into their vitals. A mithril rapier would be a horrific thing. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <83168l$25g_002@news.usenetserver.com> References: <5264-3852DE73-255@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82uvul$3qk$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <82vvpn$2gf$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 46 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:01:49 EST Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:06:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!news.itconsult.net!cyclone-l3!cyclone-l3.usenetserver.com!news4.usenetserver.com.POSTED!xenite1 In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >You're probably right, but meteorites also contain other materials (such >as heavy metals) that might give a sword made of meteoric iron special >properties. This appears to be Tolkien's intent. As I posted above, >Eol's swords would "cleave all earth-delved iron." This implies, BTW, >that much of the iron used in Beleriand at the time _was_ >earth-delved; the Dwarves, the Noldor, and Morgoth all engaged in iron >mining. Meteoric iron was usually closer to steel, and often content some nickel content. It was definitely better than what people could get out of the ground for a long time. >>of course a certain 'mystical significance' attached to it, and that >>certainly seems to be JRRT's intent as well. However, where is it >>written that it must be a better material than any other available? >>I suspect Mithril was of better quality, though likely completely > >Sure, mithril isn't "earth-delved iron", but as you say, they didn't have >it in Beleriand. The only deposit of mithril in Middle-earth was in the >area of Khazad-dum. (I suppose some mithril artifacts might have found >their way into Beleriand, since the Dwarves were pretty active traders, >but they were also pretty secretive and wouldn't have told anyone what it >is. They did not discover Mithril until the second age. >These qualities make it really useful for shields, armor, and other things >that need to be tough and wear-resistant but light enough to carry >around. It doesn't make sense for swords, because a sword needs to be >fairly heavy, or it won't carry enough momentum to hack off body parts or >anything. Not necessarily. Lighter swords can be sharpened to achieve a good cutting effect, but then if the metal is not strong, the blade must be sharpened frequently (and there wouldn't be that much hacking anyway -- it's not good for an edged weapon to hit armor and shields even if it does cut them through force and/or weight). -- \\ // Science Fiction and Fantasy info@xenite.org \\// Looking for Web-based discussion forums? //\\ Check out the Message Board Directory! // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The swords of Eol (was: Re: Weaponry and medievalism) Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 14 Dec 1999 02:55:26 GMT References: <16734-3854722E-36@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991213215526.25662.00000504@ngol01.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail In article <16734-3854722E-36@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) writes: >Actually, the word mithril is found in the Hobbit: > >"With that he put on Bilbo a small coat of mail...It was of >silver-steel, which the elves call mithril..." > >Though maybe this was added in the revised edition; I don't have the >original version of the Hobbit. That is from one of the revisions, though I do not remember if it was the 1951 or 1966 revisions. The original version simply referred to it as made of "silvered steel", which implies steel coated with silver, or mixed with silver. Silver-steel, by contrast, implies a totally different material. -- John Whelan