From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Michael Martinez wrote:

>I've heard from several people who have
>seen swords made for the movie. They
>all said the swords were very realistic in
>appearance and not fanciful at all. 

That's good.  Goofy-looking overfantasized weapons will just end up
looking stupid.  The best way to go, even for fantasy in general, is to
use functional weaponry.  Medieval and ancient warriors didn't usually
put all that extra crap we sometimes see in fantasy on their weapons.

><snip>I am guessing that the swords of
>the Rohirrim and perhaps the Dunedain
>will be more-or-less broadswords, or
>some sort of medieval stuff (although
>Tolkien said all the swords were long,
>and not one broad sword occurs in the
>book). With John Howe involved, there is
>no knowing what travesties will be put
>into the hands of the actors and extras,
>but I don't expect them to be ornately
>decorated beyond what a medieval
>sword might look like (and some
>medieval swords, and renaissance
>swords, were works of art).

While I know that ME isn't a medieval world, I think that in terms of
weaponry and armor that is the best way to go.  As you pointed out,
Tolkien said that the swords were long, and we know from the text that
chain mail was in fairly prevalent use.  That combination is probably
best approximated by arms that were in use about 1000 years ago.  IMO,
most of the non-medieval elements seem to be more along the lines of
culture rather than warfare.  A purely medieval culture would require a
strong feudal system, as well as a powerful central religious authority,
neither of which is readily apparent in ME. I'm not overly bothered by a
medieval look to the weapons myself.  However, as a side note, the
swords of the orcs were described in the books as being curved, and were
referred to as scimitars, so I would expect to see that myself; straight
swords would be out of place.
   In general, fantasy, and heroic fantasy in general, always have a
sort of pseudo-medieval feel to them.  I would say that this is due to
the fact that modern fantasy fiction is in a large part based on
elements one would find in medieval romances such as the stories of King
Arthur, Charlemagne, etc..  The problem for here is much the same as
portraying LotR and ME as medieval -- that many of the worlds of modern
fantasy fiction are not really all that much like the European Middle
Ages; and while some are closer than others, I would say that on the
whole they are not.  I think that the medievalism present in the genre
primarily serves to provide a familiar frame of reference.

>But our discussions of the Elvish swords
>did get into the height of the Elves and
>Dunedain, and how that should affect the
>length and design of swords. 

I think I recall reading somewhere that Elendil was about seven feet
tall, which would certainly make Narsil a fairly substantial sword, if
it were forged to match his height.

--Dave

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote:
>While I know that ME isn't a medieval world, I think that in terms of
>weaponry and armor that is the best way to go.  As you pointed out,
>Tolkien said that the swords were long, and we know from the text that
>chain mail was in fairly prevalent use.  That combination is probably
>best approximated by arms that were in use about 1000 years ago...

It would definitely be a departure from the text if we saw Roman legionnaires 
massing to defend Minas Tirith, armed with gladius-sized swords and such.  But 
the Celts used very long swords in the classical period.  They had some very 
beautiful designs, and I told Jackson's people I felt (but could not prove) 
that Tolkien may have had Celtic swords in mind when he was thinking of the 
Elvish weapons.

>...IMO, most of the non-medieval elements seem to be more along the lines of
>culture rather than warfare.  A purely medieval culture would require a
>strong feudal system, as well as a powerful central religious authority,
>neither of which is readily apparent in ME. I'm not overly bothered by a
>medieval look to the weapons myself.  However, as a side note, the
>swords of the orcs were described in the books as being curved, and were
>referred to as scimitars, so I would expect to see that myself; straight
>swords would be out of place.

Agreed on the scimitars.

>   In general, fantasy, and heroic fantasy in general, always have a
>sort of pseudo-medieval feel to them.  I would say that this is due to
>the fact that modern fantasy fiction is in a large part based on
>elements one would find in medieval romances such as the stories of King
>Arthur, Charlemagne, etc..  The problem for here is much the same as
>portraying LotR and ME as medieval -- that many of the worlds of modern
>fantasy fiction are not really all that much like the European Middle
>Ages; and while some are closer than others, I would say that on the
>whole they are not.  I think that the medievalism present in the genre
>primarily serves to provide a familiar frame of reference.

THE LORD OF THE RINGS, however, was not written to today's conventions and 
standards.  Nor did it really set those standards, which are much lower than 
its own.  Tolkien's story is not about a quest.  It's about "death and the 
search for deathlessness", in his words.  He was telling a story about motive, 
not action, and all the fantasy I've read which was written over the past 30 
or so years is about action, not motive.

>>But our discussions of the Elvish swords
>>did get into the height of the Elves and
>>Dunedain, and how that should affect the
>>length and design of swords. 
>
>I think I recall reading somewhere that Elendil was about seven feet
>tall, which would certainly make Narsil a fairly substantial sword, if
>it were forged to match his height.

Elendil was 8 feet tall.  That presents some problems for the movie folks, 
because Aragorn was not that tall.  I pointed out that Narsil was made by a 
Dwarf, probably for an Elven lord, and that its possessors down to Elendil may 
all have been quite tall on average.  Hence, the sword would seem a little 
overlong for Aragorn.  On the other hand, if they represent Elendil in the 
prologue (and I do not know whether they shall), then they will need to scale 
the sword down to the actor's size.


-- 
  \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, 
orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote:
>While I know that ME isn't a medieval world, I think that in terms of
>weaponry and armor that is the best way to go.  As you pointed out,
>Tolkien said that the swords were long, and we know from the text that
>chain mail was in fairly prevalent use.  That combination is probably
>best approximated by arms that were in use about 1000 years ago...

It would definitely be a departure from the text if we saw Roman legionnaires
massing to defend Minas Tirith, armed with gladius-sized swords and such.  But
the Celts used very long swords in the classical period.  They had some very
beautiful designs, and I told Jackson's people I felt (but could not prove)
that Tolkien may have had Celtic swords in mind when he was thinking of the
Elvish weapons.

>...IMO, most of the non-medieval elements seem to be more along the lines of
>culture rather than warfare.  A purely medieval culture would require a
>strong feudal system, as well as a powerful central religious authority,
>neither of which is readily apparent in ME. I'm not overly bothered by a
>medieval look to the weapons myself.  However, as a side note, the
>swords of the orcs were described in the books as being curved, and were
>referred to as scimitars, so I would expect to see that myself; straight
>swords would be out of place.

Agreed on the scimitars.

>   In general, fantasy, and heroic fantasy in general, always have a
>sort of pseudo-medieval feel to them.  I would say that this is due to
>the fact that modern fantasy fiction is in a large part based on
>elements one would find in medieval romances such as the stories of King
>Arthur, Charlemagne, etc..  The problem for here is much the same as
>portraying LotR and ME as medieval -- that many of the worlds of modern
>fantasy fiction are not really all that much like the European Middle
>Ages; and while some are closer than others, I would say that on the
>whole they are not.  I think that the medievalism present in the genre
>primarily serves to provide a familiar frame of reference.

THE LORD OF THE RINGS, however, was not written to today's conventions and
standards.  Nor did it really set those standards, which are much lower
than its own.  Tolkien's story is not about a quest.  It's about "death
and the search for deathlessness", in his words.  He was telling a story
about motive, not action, and all the fantasy I've read which was written
over the past 30 or so years is about action, not motive.

>>But our discussions of the Elvish swords
>>did get into the height of the Elves and
>>Dunedain, and how that should affect the
>>length and design of swords. 
>
>I think I recall reading somewhere that Elendil was about seven feet
>tall, which would certainly make Narsil a fairly substantial sword, if
>it were forged to match his height.

Elendil was 8 feet tall.  That presents some problems for the movie folks,
because Aragorn was not that tall.  I pointed out that Narsil was made by
a Dwarf, probably for an Elven lord, and that its possessors down to
Elendil may all have been quite tall on average.  Hence, the sword would
seem a little overlong for Aragorn.  On the other hand, if they represent
Elendil in the prologue (and I do not know whether they shall), then they
will need to scale the sword down to the actor's size.


-- 
  \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
   \\//    FREE!  Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org!
   //\\                        [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
  //  \\ENITE.org...............................................

######

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From: Cian <waldhari@mediaone.net>
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David Sulger wrote:

> [snip]
> I think I recall reading somewhere that Elendil was about seven feet
> tall, which  would certainly make Narsil a fairly substantial sword, if
> it were forged to match his height.

Elendil was indeed a tallish chap, said to be about two and a half 'rangar',
which puts him at about 7' 11" (a 'ranga' was an approximate measure
however) Galadriel was said to be about two rangar, about 6' 4". And do I
remember a Margaret Dean post offering Aragorn at about 6'9"? I'm not sure
of that.

Though Michael Martinez' discussion with the WETA designer makes sense with
regard to the proportions of Narsil, I'm really not expecting the detail to
be accounted for in the film, and assume Anduril will simply be 'fit' to the
actor playing Aragorn. Though when the time comes, if Anduril seems a tad
longer than one might expect ... anyway, I'll be interested too in Legolas'
long knife, as I've considered (read 'changed') that proportion in drawings
of my own.

Might as well add my preference regarding the 'Evil blades' too -- a
profusion of skulls, bones, misshapen faces and the like, do not for me,
make an otherwise much simpler weapon appear more terrifying. Hmm, will we
see tLotNazgul brandishing a 'Flamberge' :)
--
Cian

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <384FF40D.F06FCD5C@mediaone.net>, Cian <waldhari@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Might as well add my preference regarding the 'Evil blades' too -- a
>profusion of skulls, bones, misshapen faces and the like, do not for me,
>make an otherwise much simpler weapon appear more terrifying. Hmm, will we
>see tLotNazgul brandishing a 'Flamberge' :)

Well, assuming the barrow blades somehow make it into the movies, they SHOULD 
be ornamental in appearance.


-- 
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######

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Michael Martinez wrote:

> >Might as well add my preference regarding the 'Evil blades' too -- a
> >profusion of skulls, bones, misshapen faces and the like, do not for me,
> >make an otherwise much simpler weapon appear more terrifying. Hmm, will we see
> tLotNazgul brandishing a 'Flamberge' :)
>
> Well, assuming the barrow blades somehow make it into the movies, they SHOULD be
> ornamental in appearance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I prefer no ornamental design
at all in every case, in the evil or 'good' blades. '... damasked in
serpent forms of red and gold' can be beautiful, and as I said earlier,
some 'beast' head pommels and leaf and branch designs are fine with me
for Elvish ornamentation. I'm just hoping for a little reserve in the
general design; some of the 'Fantasy' weapons on film/tv these days
(or on some shopping channels) just take X motif and go nuts, and the
result frequently comes off too goofy looking for my taste. I believe the
Hobbit's barrow blades will make it in; it's the 'how' that might get
altered. (er, not the 'Howe' :)
--
Cian

######

From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <82nfsh$2q4_006@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

>Elendil was 8 feet tall.  That presents some problems for the movie folks, 
>because Aragorn was not that tall.  I pointed out that Narsil was made by a 
>Dwarf, probably for an Elven lord, and that its possessors down to Elendil may

>all have been quite tall on average.  Hence, the sword would seem a little 
>overlong for Aragorn.  On the other hand, if they represent Elendil in the 
>prologue (and I do not know whether they shall), then they will need to scale
>the sword down to the actor's size.

I'm curious as to where you got these figures for the heights of characters
Are there alot of other characters who are given precise heights?

I'm not entirely sure that elven swords need to be regarded as extraordinarily
long.  Thorin was under 5 feet in height (I assume), yet he could effectively
wield a blade of Gondolin.  Gandalf, who is relatively short and often walks
with knees bent, could hang one from his waist-belt without its tip dragging
on the ground.  But I agree that Narsil was probably longer than this pair.

-- John Whelan

######

From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc)
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In article <82nfsh$2q4_006@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

>THE LORD OF THE RINGS, however, was not written to today's conventions and 
>standards.  Nor did it really set those standards, which are much lower than 
>its own.  Tolkien's story is not about a quest.  It's about "death and the 
>search for deathlessness", in his words.  He was telling a story about
>motive, not action, and all the fantasy I've read which was written over the
past 30 
>or so years is about action, not motive.

Tolkien was actually very reluctant to say that the tale was "about" anything. 
I'm not
sure what is the source of your quote, but in letter 211 he says something very
similar:  "It ismainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the
'escapes':  serial 
longevity and, and hoarding memory."  But he only mentions this reluctantly, in
order
to deny that the story is primarily about Power, "*if* the tale is 'about'
anything, (other
than itself)..."  (emphasis mine).

If the tale is about itself, it is about a great many things, including a
quest, including
action.  It is about Frodo and Sam, about Shagrat and Gorbag too.  I would
suggest
that the quality of the story has less to do with emphasis on 'motive' rather
than
'action' but rather with his devotion to the story as story.  

Indeed the account of the quest *is* in fact the bulk of the story.  So if the
story is
about itself, it is therefore very much about the quest, far more so than it is
'about' any theme, including death and deathlessness..

-- John Whelan

######

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In article <82q04k$1fc_004@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

> There is a great deal of soul-searching in the book.  
>The characters all eventually face some sort of personal crisis, except maybe
>
>Legolas.  He seems a bit above it all.

Even he gets drawn to the sea.  One might imagine that this desire, seemingly
so great in him as he recounts the actions at Pelegir, could have caused a
moment of doubt as to whether he continue with Aragorn or go directly West
right then.  Probably not a _great_ crisis, but one nonetheless.

Breathe
Peace

PB

"Deserves it!  I daresay he does.  Many that live deserve death.  And some that
die deserve life.  Can you give it to them?  Then do not be too eager to deal
out death in judgement.  For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT

######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 04:27:11 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:

>>I'm not entirely sure that elven swords need to be regarded as extraordinarily
>>long.  Thorin was under 5 feet in height (I assume), yet he could effectively
>>wield a blade of Gondolin.  Gandalf, who is relatively short and often walks
>>with knees bent, could hang one from his waist-belt without its tip dragging
>>on the ground.  But I agree that Narsil was probably longer than this pair.
>
>Thorin's blade, however, comes from THE HOBBIT.  Narsil was broken about a 

We're not told much about what purpose Orcrist served in Gondolin.  It
might have been Idril's pocketknife for all we know.  (OK, it's unlikely
that Idril's pocketknife would be named "Goblin-cleaver".  My point is
that it wouldn't have to be a full-scale sword.)

Glamdring, OTOH, was Turgon's Own Personal Sword.  I don't remember if
Orcrist and Glamdring are ever identified as a matching pair (like
Anglachel and Anguirel apparently were[1]), but Glamdring was 

>The barrow blades, I think, are about a foot long.  They would have been the 
>equivalent of daggers or parrying weapons for Dunedain.

Bombadil comments that "old knives are long enough to serve as swords for
hobbits" or something.  This definitely suggests that the barrow blades
were designed as daggers.


[1] Didn't Anguirel end up in Gondolin?  If so, Gandalf should have gone
back at some point to look for it among the other treasure stolen from the
trolls.  It was a much better sword than what he had.

######

From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <82q04k$1fc_004@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

> But you've missed my point, which I suppose is not very clear.  I was not 
> speaking of plot, but of mode.  

OK.  But to be clear, I was not speaking of "plot" either, which is a story 
summary or story plan.  I was speaking of the story itself -- all 1400
pages of it.  This is (I suspect) what Tolkien was referring to as well.

> The story is one of motive and the
> examination 
> of personal values and doubts. 

Agreed.

> It is not an action story, intended to start 
> at a logical point and move the characters through a sequence of events which
> teach them something.  

 I think it is about this too.  It certainly has action, and I think Tolkien
would
consider the internal logic of the story to be something of primary importance,
 much more so than any moral or theme.  Nonetheless the characters do learn 
from, or are changed by,  their experiences, and the reader may also draw 
such lessons as he chooses.  Though I would agree that one should not
emphasise the story as teaching a lesson, for this damages the tale's
credibility
and can make it seem contrived.  The story should seem true in its own right, 
and not contrived for teaching a lesson (hence, Tolkien's distaste for
allegory)..

> There is a great deal of soul-searching in the book.  
> The characters all eventually face some sort of personal crisis, except maybe
> Legolas.  He seems a bit above it all.

Agreed.  The story had many, many facets.  It's damn good stuff!

-- John Whelan

######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
References: <82nfsh$2q4_006@news.uswest.net> <19991209222326.23911.00000155@ngol02.news.cs.com> <82pvev$1fc_002@news.uswest.net> <slrn8535q0.f5.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <82ttb9$ajs$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
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On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:11:12 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson 
<conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Well, the pocket-knife possibility also seems to run against
>Elrond's statement that "it was a famous blade".  Also, as Sting
>specifically >was< referred to as being like a pocket-knife (though
>for trolls) it might be reasonable to expect that mention would
>have been made if Orcrist were of similar size.

Ah.  Forgot about that.  But then it still might have been some sort of
dagger.  I'm sure the knife that Legolas used became pretty famous.

>> [1] Didn't Anguirel end up in Gondolin?  If so, Gandalf should
>> have gone back at some point to look for it among the other
>> treasure stolen from the trolls.  It was a much better sword than
>> what he had.
>
>Eh... well, having been the personal sword of Eol and Maeglin is not
>exactly the greatest of recommendations.  Considering the dark aura

Say what you will about Eol, but he _was_ one of the greatest smiths of
the First Age.  These swords were made of a metal that he extracted from a
meteorite, and they could easily cut through ordinary steel.

>which seemed to be wrapped around Anglachel (Gurthang) which was
>said to have come from Eol's own 'malice' and 'dark heart' it seems
>likely that Anguirel would be just as unpleasant a blade to own.

Yes, these swords had some nasty side effects, like their tendency to end
up in the chests of their own wielders.  But they were still better
swords, and I think that if anyone would be able to control one of them,
it would be Gandalf.  Anyway, he wouldn't need to keep it for very long.

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:11:12 -0500
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Mark Wells <mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> wrote in message
news:slrn8535q0.f5.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com...

> We're not told much about what purpose Orcrist served in
> Gondolin.  It might have been Idril's pocketknife for all we
> know.  (OK, it's unlikely that Idril's pocketknife would be named
> "Goblin-cleaver".  My point is that it wouldn't have to be a full-
> scale sword.)

Well, the pocket-knife possibility also seems to run against
Elrond's statement that "it was a famous blade".  Also, as Sting
specifically >was< referred to as being like a pocket-knife (though
for trolls) it might be reasonable to expect that mention would
have been made if Orcrist were of similar size.

> Glamdring, OTOH, was Turgon's Own Personal Sword.

Well, strictly speaking we have only Elrond's statement that the
King of Gondolin once wore it.  Taken literally this could mean that
Turgon tried it on once and then never touched it again.  :)
However, I think the reading you suggest above is more likely,
especially as the goblins were said to hate Glamdring even more than
Orcrist (if possible).

> I don't remember if Orcrist and Glamdring are ever identified as a
> matching pair

Not that I can think of, though they were both described as having
jewelled hilts.  The names 'beater' and 'biter' from the goblins
might imply some further relation between them - and they are both
identified as having been made by the folk of Gondolin for the
'Goblin wars'... as such it seems reasonable to assume that they
were of very similar design and appearance.

> [1] Didn't Anguirel end up in Gondolin?  If so, Gandalf should
> have gone back at some point to look for it among the other
> treasure stolen from the trolls.  It was a much better sword than
> what he had.

Eh... well, having been the personal sword of Eol and Maeglin is not
exactly the greatest of recommendations.  Considering the dark aura
which seemed to be wrapped around Anglachel (Gurthang) which was
said to have come from Eol's own 'malice' and 'dark heart' it seems
likely that Anguirel would be just as unpleasant a blade to own.
There is also no indication that these blades had the same effect
upon orcs as the swords of Gondolin.  In any case, it seems unlikely
that it would have wound up in the same treasure after all those
years... if it survived the fall of Gondolin at all.

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Mark Wells <mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> wrote in message
news:slrn8557tj.12n.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com...

> Ah.  Forgot about that.  But then it still might have been some
> sort of dagger.

Theoretically, but I don't think so.  It was always referred to as a
sword... and one made for the wars of Gondolin at that.  An elf's
"sword" would presumably not be a dagger, and again 'Sting' was
identified as a knife in contrast to the swords.

> Say what you will about Eol, but he _was_ one of the greatest
> smiths of the First Age.

Sure.  He was still one messed up elf and his swords had a bad
reputation.

> These swords were made of a metal that he extracted from a
> meteorite, and they could easily cut through ordinary steel.

As could Glamdring;

"He [Gandalf] took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the
dark by itself.  It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins
were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the
killing of the great lord of the cave.  It made no trouble whatever
of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all the prisoners
free as quickly as possible."
The Hobbit, Over Hill and Under Hill

######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:09:16 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson 
<conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Theoretically, but I don't think so.  It was always referred to as a
>sword... and one made for the wars of Gondolin at that.  An elf's
>"sword" would presumably not be a dagger, and again 'Sting' was
>identified as a knife in contrast to the swords.

I suppose you're right.

>> Say what you will about Eol, but he _was_ one of the greatest
>> smiths of the First Age.
>
>Sure.  He was still one messed up elf and his swords had a bad
>reputation.

But they were really good swords.

>> These swords were made of a metal that he extracted from a
>> meteorite, and they could easily cut through ordinary steel.
>
>As could Glamdring;

I just checked on this, because I thought I might have been confusing
Eol's swords with Angrist, but Eol's swords are described as being able to
"cleave all earth-delved iron."  (Angrist, by contrast, could "cleave iron
as if it were green wood."  You see how I could get those confused,
right?  If I had to guess which one could cleave iron, I'd pick Angrist,
because of the name.)  It sounds like if Fred, armed with Glamdring,
attacked Barney, armed with Anglachel, Glamdring would break right in
half the first time Barney parried.  (After which Anglachel would betray
Barney and he'd die a horrible death, but that's not the point.)

######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
References: <82nfsh$2q4_006@news.uswest.net> <19991209222326.23911.00000155@ngol02.news.cs.com> <82pvev$1fc_002@news.uswest.net> <slrn8535q0.f5.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <82ttb9$ajs$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <slrn8557tj.12n.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <82ulr9$1ck$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <slrn8584j8.28q.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <8317ie$25g_004@news.usenetserver.com>
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On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:28:30 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:
>In article <slrn8584j8.28q.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>>> These swords were made of a metal that he extracted from a
>>>> meteorite, and they could easily cut through ordinary steel.
>>>
>>>As could Glamdring;
>
>Glamdring was not any better than the average Elven sword, and it did not cut 
>thruogh steel.  It did cut through the iron chains forged by the goblins.

I'd expect Turgon's own sword to be a little better than the average Elven
sword, but the difference is probably negligible.

>Angrist, made by Telchar of Nogrod, was probably the most dangerous blade ever 
>forged, even if it was only a knife.  The name means "iron cleaver", and it 
>was apparently designed to do just that (though we know nothing of its history 
>except that Beren took it from Curufin and that Telchar made it).  Curufin did 
>not wear a sheathe with the blade, and yet it apparently didn't cut him.

I'd guess that he kept it in a belt loop, or maybe stuck to a magnet.

>Eol made Anguirel and Anglachel from the same batch of meteoric iron, but the 
>Noldor of Nargothrond reforged Anglachel so that its edges shown with pale 
>fire.  Tolkien doesn't say whether the sword lost its ability to cleave iron.  

You're right.  In fact, he's not very clear about this 'reforging'
business, which we see with Anglachel and again with Narsil.  What exactly
does 'reforging' entail?  With Narsil it makes sense: it was broken, so
they heated it and hammered the pieces back together until they fused, and
then smoothed it out and reapplied the heat treatment.  But Anglachel
wasn't broken.  It was just dull.  (And in mourning for the loss of its
master.)  Did they just reapply the heat treatment?

>Turin did claim it was longer and sharper than Azaghal's blade, when he 
>rallied the woodmen of Brethil against Glaurung.

In that case, I'd guess that it was one of the best swords around even
after it was reforged.  The leader of a tribe of Dwarves would have an
excellent blade.  It was just a knife, but it would be a really good
knife.

######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:8317ie$25g_004@news.usenetserver.com...

> Glamdring was not any better than the average Elven sword

Eh... this seems unlikely given the fame of the blade, the hatred
the Goblins had for it (even greater than for Orcrist), and the fact
that it was once worn by the King of Gondolin.  Unless ALL Elven
swords were near identical (and thus "average") Glamdring would
almost certainly have to be exceptional.  Such a uniform averageness
also seems to be belied by Beleg's need for a "sword of worth" to
replace his own blade.

> and it did not cut thruogh steel.  It did cut through the iron
> chains forged by the goblins.

Glamdring cut through the goblin chains.  Whether these were Copper
or Bronze or Iron or Steel or Mithril or something else entirely we
are not told that I am aware of.  Iron and steel seem the most
likely guesses to me, but they are only guesses.  If Glamdring could
easily cut through iron (assuming that is what the chains were) then
it likely could cut through >common< steel as well.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <slrn8584j8.28q.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>> These swords were made of a metal that he extracted from a
>>> meteorite, and they could easily cut through ordinary steel.
>>
>>As could Glamdring;

Glamdring was not any better than the average Elven sword, and it did not cut 
thruogh steel.  It did cut through the iron chains forged by the goblins.

>I just checked on this, because I thought I might have been confusing
>Eol's swords with Angrist, but Eol's swords are described as being able to
>"cleave all earth-delved iron."  (Angrist, by contrast, could "cleave iron
>as if it were green wood."  You see how I could get those confused,
>right?  If I had to guess which one could cleave iron, I'd pick Angrist,
>because of the name.)  It sounds like if Fred, armed with Glamdring,
>attacked Barney, armed with Anglachel, Glamdring would break right in
>half the first time Barney parried.  (After which Anglachel would betray
>Barney and he'd die a horrible death, but that's not the point.)

Angrist, made by Telchar of Nogrod, was probably the most dangerous blade ever 
forged, even if it was only a knife.  The name means "iron cleaver", and it 
was apparently designed to do just that (though we know nothing of its history 
except that Beren took it from Curufin and that Telchar made it).  Curufin did 
not wear a sheathe with the blade, and yet it apparently didn't cut him.

Eol made Anguirel and Anglachel from the same batch of meteoric iron, but the 
Noldor of Nargothrond reforged Anglachel so that its edges shown with pale 
fire.  Tolkien doesn't say whether the sword lost its ability to cleave iron.  
Turin did claim it was longer and sharper than Azaghal's blade, when he 
rallied the woodmen of Brethil against Glaurung.




-- 
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <slrn858e67.2c5.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:28:30 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:
>>In article <slrn8584j8.28q.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>,
> mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>>>> These swords were made of a metal that he extracted from a
>>>>> meteorite, and they could easily cut through ordinary steel.
>>>>
>>>>As could Glamdring;
>>
>>Glamdring was not any better than the average Elven sword, and it did not cut 
>>through steel.  It did cut through the iron chains forged by the goblins.
>
>I'd expect Turgon's own sword to be a little better than the average Elven
>sword, but the difference is probably negligible.

I suppose it's possible, but Turgon is not said to have been a smith.  He 
would not have made his own sword.  He strikes me more as a grand architect, a 
Frank Lloyd Wright of the Noldor.


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######

From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <82q04k$1fc_004@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

> But you've missed my point, which I suppose is not very clear.  I was not 
> speaking of plot, but of mode.  

OK.  But to be clear, I was not speaking of "plot" either, which is a story 
summary or story plan.  I was speaking of the story itself -- all 1400
pages of it.  This is (I suspect) what Tolkien was referring to as well.

> The story is one of motive and the
> examination 
> of personal values and doubts. 

Agreed.

> It is not an action story, intended to start 
> at a logical point and move the characters through a sequence of events which
> teach them something.  

 I think it is about this too.  It certainly has action, and I think Tolkien
would
consider the internal logic of the story to be something of primary importance,
 much more so than any moral or theme.  Nonetheless the characters do learn 
from, or are changed by,  their experiences, and the reader may also draw 
such lessons as he chooses.  Though I would agree that one should not
emphasise the story as teaching a lesson, for this damages the tale's
credibility
and can make it seem contrived.  The story should seem true in its own right, 
and not contrived for teaching a lesson (hence, Tolkien's distaste for
allegory)..

> There is a great deal of soul-searching in the book.  
> The characters all eventually face some sort of personal crisis, except maybe
> Legolas.  He seems a bit above it all.

Agreed.  The story had many, many facets.  It's damn good stuff!

-- John Whelan

######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
References: <82nfsh$2q4_006@news.uswest.net> <19991209222326.23911.00000155@ngol02.news.cs.com> <82pvev$1fc_002@news.uswest.net> <slrn8535q0.f5.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <82ttb9$ajs$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <slrn8557tj.12n.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <82ulr9$1ck$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <slrn8584j8.28q.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <8317ie$25g_004@news.usenetserver.com> <slrn858e67.2c5.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <831m6m$39o_008@news.uswest.net>
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On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 02:38:14 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:

>>I'd expect Turgon's own sword to be a little better than the average Elven
>>sword, but the difference is probably negligible.
>
>I suppose it's possible, but Turgon is not said to have been a smith.  He 
>would not have made his own sword.  He strikes me more as a grand architect, a 
>Frank Lloyd Wright of the Noldor.

I'm not saying he made his own.  I don't know where he got it, but since
virtually nobody outside Gondolin knew about Gondolin, it must have been
either made within Gondolin or brought in from Nevrast, which means it was
probably (though not certainly) made by a Noldorin smith.

######

From: "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Medievalism?  Did somebody mention Medievalism?  My university degree is in
Medieval studies...

Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com...
> In article <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote:
> >While I know that ME isn't a medieval world, I think that in terms of
> >weaponry and armor that is the best way to go.  As you pointed out,
> >Tolkien said that the swords were long, and we know from the text that
> >chain mail was in fairly prevalent use.  That combination is probably
> >best approximated by arms that were in use about 1000 years ago...

Actually, you might want to go even earlier than that.  The feeling that I
get is that Middle-earth (with the exception of the Shire, which seems to be
rather Victorian) would fit best into the time period between the fall of
the Roman Empire and the Norman conquest of England (so about 500-1066 AD).

> It would definitely be a departure from the text if we saw Roman
legionnaires
> massing to defend Minas Tirith, armed with gladius-sized swords and such.

My memory might be slightly off here, but wasn't Tolkien thinking somewhat
Egyptian for Minas Tirith?  At any rate, I'd expect to see them, from the
description in the book, using arms and armour circa 1066.

But
> the Celts used very long swords in the classical period.  They had some
very
> beautiful designs, and I told Jackson's people I felt (but could not
prove)
> that Tolkien may have had Celtic swords in mind when he was thinking of
the
> Elvish weapons.

Either that or the pattern-welded swords of the Sutton Hoo burial (which
come in before the Viking era, I guess between 450-700 AD; they show up
later, but a lot of sword blades ended up being reused in different swords,
literally as refills at times).  I'd be a bit disappointed if the Barrow
Wight sword turned out to be something other than a pattern-welded broad
sword.

(Aside, for those that don't know what a pattern-welded sword is: your usual
Viking and later period sword is made of a single bar of metal, pounded and
forged into the shape everybody knows.  However, what used to be done is the
sword would be made of three bars of metal, and the outer two would be
shaped into edges and wrapped around the middle bar.  The area where the
bars met would be decorated with intricate patterns.  In Beowulf it is
referred to as a "wavy patterned sword".  These swords were very beautiful,
but unfortunately not as sturdy as the later Viking swords.  For more
information, look at Ewart Oakeshott's "Archaeology of Weapons".)

> >   In general, fantasy, and heroic fantasy in general, always have a
> >sort of pseudo-medieval feel to them.  I would say that this is due to
> >the fact that modern fantasy fiction is in a large part based on
> >elements one would find in medieval romances such as the stories of King
> >Arthur, Charlemagne, etc..  The problem for here is much the same as
> >portraying LotR and ME as medieval -- that many of the worlds of modern
> >fantasy fiction are not really all that much like the European Middle
> >Ages; and while some are closer than others, I would say that on the
> >whole they are not.  I think that the medievalism present in the genre
> >primarily serves to provide a familiar frame of reference.

It has seemed to me that another reason for this was that the major
influences on the genre (namely Tolkien and Robert E. Howard) tended to use
a Medieval context for their work.  Let's face it: most fantasy has been
derivitive of those two authors.

> THE LORD OF THE RINGS, however, was not written to today's conventions and
> standards.  Nor did it really set those standards, which are much lower
> than its own.  Tolkien's story is not about a quest.  It's about "death
> and the search for deathlessness", in his words.  He was telling a story
> about motive, not action, and all the fantasy I've read which was written
> over the past 30 or so years is about action, not motive.

LotR was about many things, and to descern all the parts in their proper
measure would take a PhD thesis.  That is definitely one of the major
themes, though.

Robert Marks

--
The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone,
And I am but a lonely wanderer, / With time my only home.
                                                     -- From Magus Draconum

######

From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Michael Martinez wrote:

>They could have been made of bronze,
>copper, or aluminum for all we know.

Aluminum is highly unlikely.  The cost of extracting aluminum from ores
was very high until  electricity was used to facilitate the process.
Before that, aluminum was expensive.

--Dave

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
>Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com...
>> It would definitely be a departure from the text if we saw Roman
>> legionnaires massing to defend Minas Tirith, armed with
>> gladius-sized swords and such.
>
>My memory might be slightly off here, but wasn't Tolkien thinking somewhat
>Egyptian for Minas Tirith?  At any rate, I'd expect to see them, from the
>description in the book, using arms and armour circa 1066.

He had Egyptian architecture and culture in mind for the Numenoreans (and the 
Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor), but you risk getting flamed for pointing out 
the facts.

>> But the Celts used very long swords in the classical period.  They had
>> some very beautiful designs, and I told Jackson's people I felt (but
>> could not prove) that Tolkien may have had Celtic swords in mind when
>> he was thinking of the Elvish weapons.
>
>Either that or the pattern-welded swords of the Sutton Hoo burial (which
>come in before the Viking era, I guess between 450-700 AD; they show up
>later, but a lot of sword blades ended up being reused in different swords,
>literally as refills at times).  I'd be a bit disappointed if the Barrow
>Wight sword turned out to be something other than a pattern-welded broad
>sword.

Tolkien did not model any of his weapons on the pattern-welded blades.

[snip]

>It has seemed to me that another reason for this was that the major
>influences on the genre (namely Tolkien and Robert E. Howard) tended to use
>a Medieval context for their work.  Let's face it: most fantasy has been
>derivitive of those two authors.

There's really very little medieval influence in Middle-earth.  There are many 
aspects of Middle-earth which can be called "generic" because you find them in 
many different periods going back thousands of years.  Swords and mail are 
just two of them.  Mounted warfare is another.  These are the three most 
often-cited examples of so-called "medieval influence" in Tolkien.  And let's 
not even get into feudalism, of which there are no examples in LOTR.

The medieval customs I've found (or accepted when pointed out by others) are 
more subtle, such as the way Celeborn and Galadriel stand to meet their 
guests, or the use of stirrups by the Rohirrim, or the "hands of the king are 
the hands of a healer" bit from Ioreth.

The contract between Pippin and Denethor, I have come to concede, is probably 
feudal in one sense, though Pippin also swore service to Gondor and did not 
have to swear a new oath to Aragorn, but his oath is not an exchange of land 
for service, as most people associate feudalism with such exchanges.


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
   \\//                 Looking for Web-based discussion forums?
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######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy
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On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:59:50 -0500 (EST), orius@webtv.net (David
Sulger) wrote:

>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>>They could have been made of bronze,
>>copper, or aluminum for all we know.
>
>Aluminum is highly unlikely.  The cost of extracting aluminum from ores
>was very high until  electricity was used to facilitate the process.
>Before that, aluminum was expensive.

Actually, it was (and still is) expensive even with electricity, as
most of the methods for refining aluminum involve brute-forcing it
into a higher energy state.

Without electricity it's virtually impossible.  There are probably
chemical methods for making small quantities of aluminum, but they
would require reducing agents that have to be manufactured through
brute-force electrolysis.  (For example, you could probably get
aluminum oxide to react with calcium or sodium, but calcium and sodium
are even harder to refine.)

######

From: jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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<<He had Egyptian architecture and culture in mind for the Numenoreans (and the

Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor), but you risk getting flamed for pointing out 
the facts.>>

No flames here. What he actually said was that the Numenoreans were like the
Egyptians in that they had a penchant for building massive structures and
monuments on a grand scale. That doesn't mean that Numenorean architecture (or
artefacts) resembled the Egyptian in its shapes and details. The winged crown
of Gondor being an obvious exception.

-King
" I know what fakery looks like" -James Randi

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <9588-3855C0B6-28@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote:
>Michael Martinez wrote:
>
>>They could have been made of bronze,
>>copper, or aluminum for all we know.
>
>Aluminum is highly unlikely.  The cost of extracting aluminum from ores
>was very high until  electricity was used to facilitate the process.
>Before that, aluminum was expensive.

So?


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Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <834sq4$1qc_012@news.uswest.net>
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In article <19991214011833.01615.00000643@ng-ca1.aol.com>, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote:
><<He had Egyptian architecture and culture in mind for the Numenoreans
>>(and the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor), but you risk getting flamed
>>for pointing out the facts.>>
>
>No flames here. What he actually said was that the Numenoreans were like the
>Egyptians in that they had a penchant for building massive structures and
>monuments on a grand scale. That doesn't mean that Numenorean architecture (or
>artefacts) resembled the Egyptian in its shapes and details. The winged crown
>of Gondor being an obvious exception.

  The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and
  I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms.  In many ways
  they resembled 'Egyptians' -- the love of, and power to construct,
  the gigantic and massive.  And in their great interest in ancestry
  and in tombs.  (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect
  they were Hebraic and even more puritan -- but this would take
  long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no
  overt 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies
  among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in THE LORD OF THE RINGS.)
  I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like
  that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but
  at an angle.

  The N. Kingdom had only a DIADEM (III 323).  Cf. the difference
  between teh N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt.
  (From Letter 211, THE LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN)


  'Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans stoll, as they
  had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless
  life unchanging.  Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of
  the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent
  dearer than the names of sons.  Childless lords sat in aged
  halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men
  compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions
  of the stars.  And the last king of the line of Anarion had
  no heir.'
  (From "The Window on the West" in THE TWO TOWERS)


  In Numenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for
  in riding the Numenoreans, both men and women, took delight,
  and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them
  honourably and housing them nobly.  They were trained to hear
  and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old
  tales that where there was love between men and women and their
  favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought
  alone.  Therefore the roads of Numenor were for the most part
  unpaved, made and tended for riding, since coaches and
  carriages were little used in the earlier centuries, and
  heavy cargoes were borne by sea.
  (From "A Description of Numenor" in UNFINISHED TALES)


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From: jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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  <<The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and
  I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms.  In many ways
  they resembled 'Egyptians' -- the love of, and power to construct,
  the gigantic and massive.  And in their great interest in ancestry
  and in tombs.  (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect
  they were Hebraic and even more puritan -- but this would take
  long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no
  overt 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies
  among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in THE LORD OF THE RINGS.)
  I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like
  that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but
  at an angle.>>

Yes, but nothing in this statement indicates that the architecture or cultural
artefacts of Numenor should resemble the Egyptian in appearance. The crown, as
I said, being an exception. Nowhere does Tolkien ever say that Numenoreans
resemble Egyptians in any way other than what he specifically described: The
penchant for building massive monuments and the obsession with tombs and
ancestors. He goes out of his way to indicate the differences in theology in
the same statement.

It doesn't mean Numenorean dress looked like Egyptian dress.
It doesn't mean Numenorean weapons looked like Egyptian weapons.
It doesn't mean Numenorean monuments looked like Egyptian monuments in anything
other than size and scale.

Just because Tolkien finds it useful to illustrate some similarities between
Numenor and Egypt to help clarify what the culture of Numenor was like, does
not mean that Numenor resembled Egypt CLOSELY in any type of overarching
fashion.

-King
" I know what fakery looks like" -James Randi

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <19991214114807.25901.00000902@ng-cf1.aol.com>, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote:
>
>  <<The Numenoreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and
>  I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms.  In many ways
>  they resembled 'Egyptians' -- the love of, and power to construct,
>  the gigantic and massive.  And in their great interest in ancestry
>  and in tombs.  (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect
>  they were Hebraic and even more puritan -- but this would take
>  long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no
>  overt 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies
>  among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in THE LORD OF THE RINGS.)
>  I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like
>  that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but
>  at an angle.>>
>
>Yes, but nothing in this statement indicates that the architecture or cultural
>artefacts of Numenor should resemble the Egyptian in appearance.

"...should resemble the Egyptian in appearance."  How did you arrive at THAT 
from what I wrote?

  "He had Egyptian architecture and culture in mind for the Numenoreans
 (and the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor)"

>...The crown, as I said, being an exception. Nowhere does Tolkien ever
>say that Numenoreans resemble Egyptians in any way other than what he
>specifically described: The penchant for building massive monuments
>and the obsession with tombs and ancestors. He goes out of his way to
>indicate the differences in theology in the same statement.

See above.  "Many ways", division of the Realms-in-Exile into North and South 
kingdoms (as the Egyptians had at one time).

The Egyptians' love of animals and the Numenoreans' love of animals is another 
example of the parallels he envisioned, as well as the transporting of cargo 
over water instead of by land, the interest in astrology, etc.


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######

From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:05:27 -0500
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Kingasaurus <jeoppete@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991214114807.25901.00000902@ng-cf1.aol.com...

> Nowhere does Tolkien ever say that Numenoreans resemble Egyptians
> in any way other than what he specifically described: The penchant
> for building massive monuments and the obsession with tombs and
> ancestors.

> It doesn't mean Numenorean monuments looked like Egyptian
> monuments in anything other than size and scale.

True, though the Numenoreans did apparently build obelisks like the
Egyptians, so that is one specific structure in common.  Still,
there is about as much evidence of 'Egyptian' influence as there is
of 'medeival' influence.

######

From: "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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That's right...send me back to the books... :-)

Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net...
> >> But the Celts used very long swords in the classical period.  They had
> >> some very beautiful designs, and I told Jackson's people I felt (but
> >> could not prove) that Tolkien may have had Celtic swords in mind when
> >> he was thinking of the Elvish weapons.
> >
> >Either that or the pattern-welded swords of the Sutton Hoo burial (which
> >come in before the Viking era, I guess between 450-700 AD; they show up
> >later, but a lot of sword blades ended up being reused in different
swords,
> >literally as refills at times).  I'd be a bit disappointed if the Barrow
> >Wight sword turned out to be something other than a pattern-welded broad
> >sword.
>
> Tolkien did not model any of his weapons on the pattern-welded blades.

I think it might be difficult to prove that either way.  Unfortunately (and
I may be wrong; I am coming up to my bi-annual reading of LotR, and some
details are not as fresh in my mind as I would like), I can't recall many
real descriptions of what the sword blades look like, aside from "long,"
"shiny," or "naked."  I have, however, found on page 269 a description of
Anduril: "...and on its blade was traced a device of seven starts set
between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many
runes".  This may (or may not) describe a pattern-welded blade; Tolkien
writes that it is reforged, but not HOW.  For all we know, the Elven smiths
wove the runes into the pattern of the blade, or they could have just been
carved into a Viking-style sword.

I find it hard to believe, though, considering Tolkien's inspirations, that
he could have completely neglected the pattern-welded sword from his vision
of LotR.  The scene in the barrow, for example, has definite shades of
Beowulf in it, and that poem made reference exclusively to pattern-welded
swords (LotR, however, calls the wight's sword "long" and "naked", and thus
isn't much help here).  Considering how widespread the technique of
pattern-welding was, though, anything Celtic or "Dark Ages" (as a
Medievalist, I must point out that this term is virtually meaningless, but
more people will think of 450-800 AD than if I use "Migration period")
involving swords would have to involve pattern-welded blades.  Oakeshott
writes:

"We know that the Celts were the first great workers in iron, the
originators of the intricate and beautiful art of making pattern-welded
blades.  It is reasonable to suppose, and there are some scraps of
supporting evidence, that the Celtic smiths continued to make swords for
their Teutonic conquerors in the early part of the Migration Period.  Some
of the names found stamped on blades of the first two centuries have a
Celtic origin, though the later ones of the Viking period are purely
Teutonic." (Archaeology of Weapons, page 87)

It is always possible that Tolkien was just thinking of the common Medieval
broadsword (Viking style, not pattern-welded), and didn't give a great deal
of thought to how the swords in LotR were made.  I think it is unlikely
though; however, unless there is a description of a "wavy-patterned" or
"serpent-patterned" sword which we can definitely say was pattern-welded,
there is no way to make a truly conclusive argument either way.

> [snip]
>
> >It has seemed to me that another reason for this was that the major
> >influences on the genre (namely Tolkien and Robert E. Howard) tended to
use
> >a Medieval context for their work.  Let's face it: most fantasy has been
> >derivitive of those two authors.
>
> There's really very little medieval influence in Middle-earth.  There are
many
> aspects of Middle-earth which can be called "generic" because you find
them in
> many different periods going back thousands of years.  Swords and mail are
> just two of them.  Mounted warfare is another.  These are the three most
> often-cited examples of so-called "medieval influence" in Tolkien.  And
let's
> not even get into feudalism, of which there are no examples in LOTR.
>
> The medieval customs I've found (or accepted when pointed out by others)
are
> more subtle, such as the way Celeborn and Galadriel stand to meet their
> guests, or the use of stirrups by the Rohirrim, or the "hands of the king
are
> the hands of a healer" bit from Ioreth.
>
> The contract between Pippin and Denethor, I have come to concede, is
probably
> feudal in one sense, though Pippin also swore service to Gondor and did
not
> have to swear a new oath to Aragorn, but his oath is not an exchange of
land
> for service, as most people associate feudalism with such exchanges.

You've actually fallen into a common misconception about the Middle Ages,
which is that the entire time was marked with a Feudal system.  While indeed
the latter half of the period was, the first half was not.  Feudalism
appears in Western Europe for the first time around the 9th century, as the
Carolingian Empire was falling to pieces, and various landowners were forced
to become independent powers.  The question of what exactly Feudalism is has
been debated for years and will continue to be debated by better minds than
me, and thus I will not say much more about it.

The Riders of Rohan are definitely a society of the early Middle Ages,
patterned after the Germanic tribes of the Migration era (from 400-800 AD,
approximately).  Besides their language (which can be put down to creative
license), the riders also have a system of halls and thegns/retainers and
familial relationships that were the hallmarks of the Germanic tribes in
this period.

Gondor could also be compared to the structure of the Carolingian Empire,
but I am saying this with great caution, as not only is it late here, but
(again), I also haven't read the book in about two years.  I think the
Egyptian model might suit them better for archetecture, but I do recall
something Carolingian/Merovingian about them (especially their structure
with the Steward; the Carolingian empire was formed by Charles Martel, who
was a Steward of the Merovingian kings).

Many of the structures, however, could be rather generically "mythic".  For
example, the high number of swordsmen/orcs.  Throughout history, the sword
has been an incredibly important, but fairly rare weapon, usually the weapon
of the nobility.  The most common weapon was the pike/spear or axe, which
was easier to make in vast numbers, and did not carry the import of the
sword.  However, most mythical heroes tend to be of noble blood, and swords
are more common than axes or spears in most of the sagas I've read (but I am
just beginning, so I might be wrong).

I guess, to conclude what has become a long and rambling contribution, I can
suggest that Tolkien was using the structures he knew best, being mythology
and the early Middle Ages (he was, after all, one of the foremost
Anglo-Saxonists of his day).  But, you are right; it is not the "Middle
Ages", but a fantasy world (after all, where else but in fantasy would you
have warriors out of a Norse saga showing up beside pipe-smoking Hobbits?),
and we should be cautious about trying to say that it is based in year X.

Robert Marks

--
The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone,
And I am but a lonely wanderer, / With time my only home.
                                                     -- From Magus Draconum

######

From: jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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<<See above.  "Many ways", division of the Realms-in-Exile into North and South

kingdoms (as the Egyptians had at one time).>>

The Hebrews had the same division (Israel and Judah), and the Roman Empire had
the East-West split. It's not unique to Egypt.

<<The Egyptians' love of animals and the Numenoreans' love of animals is
another 
example of the parallels he envisioned,>>

The love of animals is hardly specific to one culture. It's sort of like saying
both Numenor and Egypt had a King, so that qualifies as a similarity.

<< as well as the transporting of cargo 
over water instead of by land, >>

The Numenoreans hardly had any choice in the matter, considering they lived on
an island smack in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It's simply more efficient
to transport by sea in such a case, even if you're transporting cargo from one
side of Numenor to the other.

<<the interest in astrology, etc.>>

Again, this is evident in many, if not most, cultures. Ask the Babylonians and
the Chinese. In any case, the Numenoreans were a seafaring people. For them NOT
to show interest in the study of the stars would have been suicidal at the
outset.

Look, I'm just trying to nip-in-the-bud the idea that Numenor resembled Egypt
in any ways other than the very specific and limited ways that Tolkien
describes. If you agree with me about that already, then we're on the same
page. I'm not necessarily looking for an argument.

I'm simply trying to clarify what the word "similar" specifically means, in the
statement "Numenor and Egypt were similar". That's all.

-King
" I know what fakery looks like" -James Randi

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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On 15 Dec 1999 05:00:48 GMT, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote:

>Look, I'm just trying to nip-in-the-bud the idea that Numenor resembled Egypt
>in any ways other than the very specific and limited ways that Tolkien
>describes. If you agree with me about that already, then we're on the same
>page. I'm not necessarily looking for an argument.

I wouldn't describe them as "specific and limited ways".  I'd call
them "vague and abstract ways".  The Numenorean culture didn't _look_
like the Egyptian culture.  Superficially (and even substantively) it
was totally different.  The similarities were at a deeper level.  What
the cultures had in common were some general overarching themes, such
as the fascination with ancestry[0], death, and the afterlife, the
immense military and industrial power, the tendency to dominate
neighboring lands (even if they were on a different continent), and
the love of great massive monuments.  They had some common attitudes,
but the Numenorean fascination with tombs and enormous structures
didn't mean that they were likely to go out and build Egyptian-style
pyramids.


[0] This is particularly relevant in the Numenorean culture, because
quite a few of them had genuine Elven ancestry.  The Egyptians
believed their kings were descended from the gods; for the Numenoreans
it was very nearly true.

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:23:40 -0500, "Robert B. Marks"
<Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:

>It is always possible that Tolkien was just thinking of the common Medieval
>broadsword (Viking style, not pattern-welded), and didn't give a great deal
>of thought to how the swords in LotR were made.  I think it is unlikely
>though; however, unless there is a description of a "wavy-patterned" or
>"serpent-patterned" sword which we can definitely say was pattern-welded,
>there is no way to make a truly conclusive argument either way.

Let's get back to the barrow for a moment--specifically, the blades
that the Hobbits took from the barrow.  They're ornamental daggers,
"damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold".  Hmm, does that suggest
pattern-welding?

>The Riders of Rohan are definitely a society of the early Middle Ages,
>patterned after the Germanic tribes of the Migration era (from 400-800 AD,
>approximately).  Besides their language (which can be put down to creative
>license), the riders also have a system of halls and thegns/retainers and
>familial relationships that were the hallmarks of the Germanic tribes in
>this period.

Well, Tolkien said they're not specifically patterned after the
Anglo-Saxon tribes, but I suppose there are plenty of other Germanic
tribes to choose from.

>Many of the structures, however, could be rather generically "mythic".  For
>example, the high number of swordsmen/orcs.  Throughout history, the sword
>has been an incredibly important, but fairly rare weapon, usually the weapon
>of the nobility.  The most common weapon was the pike/spear or axe, which
>was easier to make in vast numbers, and did not carry the import of the

The other great advantage of spears, of course, is that they hold up
fairly well against mounted soldiers.  Swordsmen will get completely
run over by a cavalry charge, but the cavalry would think twice about
charging into four layers of 19' pikes.

I'd guess axes were also popular because they had more non-military
uses, but I'm not an expert on this stuff.

>sword.  However, most mythical heroes tend to be of noble blood, and swords
>are more common than axes or spears in most of the sagas I've read (but I am
>just beginning, so I might be wrong).

The Silmarillion mentions that the Sindar used a lot of axes, which is
surprising as they're one of the better-equipped tribes of the First
Age (as opposed to being a bunch of woodcutters with axes who spent a
week learning to march in a basically straight line before being sent
to the front), but at this point we're getting so far from actual
history that the comparison might not be worth much.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
>That's right...send me back to the books... :-)
>
>Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net...
>> Tolkien did not model any of his weapons on the pattern-welded blades.
>
>I think it might be difficult to prove that either way.  Unfortunately (and
>I may be wrong; I am coming up to my bi-annual reading of LotR, and some
>details are not as fresh in my mind as I would like), I can't recall many
>real descriptions of what the sword blades look like, aside from "long,"
>"shiny," or "naked."  I have, however, found on page 269 a description of
>Anduril: "...and on its blade was traced a device of seven starts set
>between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many
>runes".  This may (or may not) describe a pattern-welded blade; Tolkien
>writes that it is reforged, but not HOW.  For all we know, the Elven smiths
>wove the runes into the pattern of the blade, or they could have just been
>carved into a Viking-style sword.

A pattern-welded blade could not contain such intricate tracings.  Historical 
pattern welded blades got their patterns from the twisted bars.  A modern 
swordsmith shows his technique for creating pattern-welded weapons with 
intricate designs here [http://www.meiersteel.com/imade.html].  He put the 
designs of American flags on a bar and then made a knife from it.  Anduril 
could not have been so reforged.

A description of the pattern-welding process can be found here 
[http://www.atar.com/index6.html].  They provide images of their pattern 
blades here [http://www.atar.com/F-catalog-frames.htm].  The patterns result 
from the natural blending of the metals in the forging process.

[http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/pat06.html] provides a history of 
pattern-welding, and they point out that repetitive lettering technique were 
not developed until the 19th century.  This page also provides pictures of 
Viking pattern-welded swords.

Another good resource is Serpent in the Sword 
[http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html], which provides more graphical 
examples.  This page includes front and back shots of a 10th century sword 
with crude designs inscribed on the blade which don't begin to approach what 
Tolkien described.

>I find it hard to believe, though, considering Tolkien's inspirations, that
>he could have completely neglected the pattern-welded sword from his vision
>of LotR.  The scene in the barrow, for example, has definite shades of
>Beowulf in it, and that poem made reference exclusively to pattern-welded
>swords (LotR, however, calls the wight's sword "long" and "naked", and thus
>isn't much help here).  Considering how widespread the technique of
>pattern-welding was, though, anything Celtic or "Dark Ages" (as a
>Medievalist, I must point out that this term is virtually meaningless, but
>more people will think of 450-800 AD than if I use "Migration period")
>involving swords would have to involve pattern-welded blades.  Oakeshott
>writes:

"Beowulf" is a much overrated source of inspiration for Tolkien (and most of 
the comparisons I've seen between Tolkien's work and the poem show a certain 
stretch of imagination goes into identifying alleged borrowings).

>> There's really very little medieval influence in Middle-earth.  There are
>> many aspects of Middle-earth which can be called "generic" because you
>> find them in many different periods going back thousands of years.
>> Swords and mail are just two of them.  Mounted warfare is another.  These
>> are the three most often-cited examples of so-called "medieval influence"
>> in Tolkien.  And let's not even get into feudalism, of which there are no
>> examples in LOTR.
>>
>> The medieval customs I've found (or accepted when pointed out by others)
>> are more subtle, such as the way Celeborn and Galadriel stand to meet
>> their guests, or the use of stirrups by the Rohirrim, or the "hands of
>> the king are the hands of a healer" bit from Ioreth.
>>
>> The contract between Pippin and Denethor, I have come to concede, is
>> probably feudal in one sense, though Pippin also swore service to Gondor
>> and did not have to swear a new oath to Aragorn, but his oath is not an
>> exchange of land for service, as most people associate feudalism with
>> such exchanges.
>
>You've actually fallen into a common misconception about the Middle Ages,
>which is that the entire time was marked with a Feudal system.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that because I address the concerns raised 
by others I share those perceptions.

>The Riders of Rohan are definitely a society of the early Middle Ages,
>patterned after the Germanic tribes of the Migration era (from 400-800 AD,
>approximately). 

Not even closely.  They are an idealized society sharing no parallels with any 
historical peoples in such detail.

>...Besides their language (which can be put down to creative
>license), the riders also have a system of halls and thegns/retainers and
>familial relationships that were the hallmarks of the Germanic tribes in
>this period.

You're inferring much which is not stipulated by Tolkien.  We have precisely 
one hall in all of Rohan, and only the king had knights (his household 
knights) to serve him.  Eomer's Eored were Riders of Rohan, drawn from the 
Muster of the East-Mark.  They were not his personal retainers.  There is 
nothing like the army of Rohan even among the Goths, who arguably had the most 
advanced military tradition because of their long association with the empire.

>Gondor could also be compared to the structure of the Carolingian Empire,
>but I am saying this with great caution, as not only is it late here, but
>(again), I also haven't read the book in about two years.

There is nothing even remotely Carolingian in Gondor.  Certainly the kings 
didn't travel about from estate to estate or city to city eating up the local 
supplies.  And the Gondorians were not only literate, they were the remnant of 
their own ancient empire, not late-comers trying to piece together a previous 
empire out of some romantic or political ideal.

>...I think the
>Egyptian model might suit them better for archetecture, but I do recall
>something Carolingian/Merovingian about them (especially their structure
>with the Steward; the Carolingian empire was formed by Charles Martel, who
>was a Steward of the Merovingian kings).

The Stewards of Gondor did not arise from major domo status.  Their office was 
fully formed when it appeared.  The Sindarin word for "steward" was Arandur, 
"King's Servant" (according to note 25 to "Cirion and Eorl" in UNFINISHED 
TALES).  The word "steward" comes from the Anglo-Saxon "stigweard", the keeper 
of a hall.  The Dunedain Kings didn't live in halls, they lived in palaces or 
citadels.  The Stewards of Gondor were members of the royal council, 
apparently appointed to a formal office to fulfill a role which had been 
established in Numenor through tradition developed at need.  Hallatan of 
Hyarsastorni served as regent in the absence of Tar-Aldarion and the 
appointment was the first such since no King of Numenor had ever before left 
the island.

Dunadan stewards thus were envisioned as regents and advisors from the very 
beginning of the office.  Anglo-Saxon Stewards were probably originally 
retained to look after the animals on an estate, and their duties gradually 
extended.  A majordomo was someone who ran a household for a lord or king.  
Among the early Frankish kings of Austrasia the majordomos gained power when 
they took responsibility for managing the affairs of underaged rulers, and the 
nobles eventually forced the kings to withdraw their counts from the provinces 
and to vest greater authority in the majordomos, whose selections were 
influenced or decided by the nobles.  There is nothing in Gondorian politics 
or history like this process.

The majordomos assumed control when the kings forsook their duties, but the 
only similar occurrence in Gondorian history was when Minalcar, nephew of King 
Narmacil I (1226-94), was appointed Regent (no Steward existed yet).  
Minalcar's regency probably eventually led to the creation of the office.  The 
earliest named Steward was Hurin of Emyn Arnen, who served King Minardil 
(1621-34) and King Telemnar (1634-6).  Hurin "laboured greatly for the 
ordering of the realm during the disastrous days of the plague" (PEOPLES OF 
MIDDLE-EARTH), so he was no domestic servant watching over the king's pigs and 
horses.  No King of Gondor ever ascended the throne during his minority.  In 
fact, the only Dunadan king to do so was Valandil, son of Isildur, and Arnor 
was governed by some unnamed servant or relative -- probably with the status 
of Regent -- until he reached his majority.

Hence, there is no correspondence between the appearance of the office of 
Steward in Gondor and the rise of the Major Domus of the Frankish kings or the 
Stigweard of the Anglo-Saxon kings.

>Many of the structures, however, could be rather generically "mythic".  For
>example, the high number of swordsmen/orcs.  Throughout history, the sword
>has been an incredibly important, but fairly rare weapon, usually the weapon
>of the nobility.  The most common weapon was the pike/spear or axe, which
>was easier to make in vast numbers, and did not carry the import of the
>sword.  However, most mythical heroes tend to be of noble blood, and swords
>are more common than axes or spears in most of the sagas I've read (but I am
>just beginning, so I might be wrong).

Swords were common enough weapons among the ancient Celts who invaded Greece 
and Italy, and the Greek and Roman soldiers normally carried swords as well 
(not to mention other classical peoples).

>I guess, to conclude what has become a long and rambling contribution, I can
>suggest that Tolkien was using the structures he knew best, being mythology
>and the early Middle Ages (he was, after all, one of the foremost
>Anglo-Saxonists of his day)....

This is ridiculous.  Tolkien was trained in the classics and he knew them 
quite well, having read them in the original Greek and Latin.  He often 
alluded to classical leaders in his letters (including Alexander, more than 
once).  The man saw far more than medieval history when he looked at the past, 
and he certainly devoted a lot time and attention to appreciating the 
classical period.  The first ancient Germanic language he learned was Gothic, 
a classical language.

Tolkien is all too often given short shrift by modern fans who see him as 
nothing more than a medieval Anglo-Saxon expert.  He was a linguist, not a 
medievalist.  He certainly didn't call himself a medievalist.  He viewed 
himself as a philologist.  There is a very great difference between the two.  
What he knew best were languages, and they were the heart and soul of his 
academic and professional careers.

>....But, you are right; it is not the "Middle
>Ages", but a fantasy world (after all, where else but in fantasy would you
>have warriors out of a Norse saga showing up beside pipe-smoking Hobbits?),
>and we should be cautious about trying to say that it is based in year X.


-- 
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <83808q$1lo_008@news.uswest.net>
References: <836iob$k08$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19991215000048.18510.00000988@ng-fv1.aol.com>
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In article <19991215000048.18510.00000988@ng-fv1.aol.com>, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote:
><<See above.  "Many ways", division of the Realms-in-Exile into North and South
>kingdoms (as the Egyptians had at one time).>>
>
>The Hebrews had the same division (Israel and Judah), and the Roman Empire had
>the East-West split. It's not unique to Egypt.

Those divisions arose for different purposes (in fact, the North and South 
Kingdoms of Egypt arose separately, as did Arnor and Gondor).  Tolkien was 
very specific in referring to the Egyptians.  He should be taken seriously for 
that reason as well as the fact that he is the only authority on what models 
he used.

><<The Egyptians' love of animals and the Numenoreans' love of animals is
>another example of the parallels he envisioned,>>
>
>The love of animals is hardly specific to one culture. It's sort of
>like saying both Numenor and Egypt had a King, so that qualifies as a
>similarity.

No.  The ancient Romans, Persians, Jews, Greeks, and Hittites are not closely 
associated with animals on a cultural level.  The Huns were, but they were a 
steppe people, and the Numenoreans were not a steppe people.

><< as well as the transporting of cargo 
>over water instead of by land, >>
>
>The Numenoreans hardly had any choice in the matter, considering they lived on
>an island smack in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It's simply more efficient
>to transport by sea in such a case, even if you're transporting cargo from
>one side of Numenor to the other.

Incorrect about whether the Numenoreans had a choice.  They could have 
transported the goods overland, but chose instead to transport them by water.  
The Egyptians, on the other hand, pretty much lived along the Nile.  The 
Numenoreans mostly lived along the coastlands, so there is another parallel 
there, too.

><<the interest in astrology, etc.>>
>
>Again, this is evident in many, if not most, cultures. Ask the Babylonians and
>the Chinese. In any case, the Numenoreans were a seafaring people. For them NOT
>to show interest in the study of the stars would have been suicidal at the
>outset.

And the Egyptian Pharaohs were priest-kings, like the Numenoreans.  But the 
Numenoreans were intensely interested in the stars before they became great 
seafarers, and the Gondorians did not travel as far as the Numenoreans.

>Look, I'm just trying to nip-in-the-bud the idea that Numenor resembled Egypt
>in any ways other than the very specific and limited ways that Tolkien
>describes.

You won't be able to do that.  The other parallels are clear, and the fact 
that Tolkien said there were many similarities nips in the bud all attempts to 
distract us away from the similarities.


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
   \\//                 Looking for Web-based discussion forums?
   //\\                   Check out the Message Board Directory!
  //  \\ENITE.org...............................................

######

From: jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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>The Numenoreans hardly had any choice in the matter, considering they lived on
>an island smack in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It's simply more
efficient
>to transport by sea in such a case, even if you're transporting cargo from
>one side of Numenor to the other.

<<Incorrect about whether the Numenoreans had a choice.  They could have 
transported the goods overland,>> 

And I have a choice to cut my foot off with a butcher knife. I simply choose
not to do so because I'd be a fool if I did.

<<...but chose instead to transport them by water. >>

Sigh.....It's more EFFICIENT to do so. They had no PRACTICAL choice. You'd be a
fool to transport goods overland when transporting them by ship is easier for
them. That's what I mean by "no choice".  And I'm specifically talking about
Numenor itself in this case. 

<<The Egyptians, on the other hand, pretty much lived along the Nile.  The 
Numenoreans mostly lived along the coastlands, so there is another parallel 
there, too.>>

Hardly. The Egyptians depended on The Nile Delta for their livelihood. The
Egyptian civilization basically "grew up" around (and because of) the river. A
river, mind you. Not a great Ocean with vast distances to navigate. Numenor was
an isolated island with a population of great seafarers who would naturally
have an affinity for the coastlands of Middle-earth after their home island was
destroyed. I could just as easily talk about how the great Empires of Greece
and Rome were essentially dependent on the Mediterranean Sea. Any parallels in
this specific case can be applied to great cultures other than Egypt.

By the way, give me a direct quote where Tolkien specifically states that his
decision to use the device of the North-South kingdoms is influenced directly
by Egypt, and I'll change my mind.

<<And the Egyptian Pharaohs were priest-kings, like the Numenoreans.  But the 
Numenoreans were intensely interested in the stars before they became great 
seafarers,>>

Most cultures are. Name me a great civilization that does not have a great
interest in the stars. Most cultures teach themselves astronomy through
necessity, and astrology becomes a cultural outgrowth of that. People need to
know the ebb and flow of the seasons; when to sow, when to harvest. How to
navigate by sea in many cases. The Aztecs knew jack-squat about seafaring, but
astronomy and astrology were extremely important to them. It was part of their
identity as a culture. Again, it's suicidal for a culture NOT to know these
things.

<<There is still no reason to presume that and the Gondorians did not travel as
far as the Numenoreans.->>

Whether the Men of Gondor traveled is irrelevant. They retained many of the
cultural traditions of Numenor in exile. That's a perfectly natural and
reasonable expectation.

-King


" I know what fakery looks like" -James Randi

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <838id6$174_006@news.uswest.net>
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In article <19991215113944.18489.00001485@ng-fv1.aol.com>, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote:
><<Incorrect about whether the Numenoreans had a choice.  They could have 
>transported the goods overland,>> 
>
>And I have a choice to cut my foot off with a butcher knife. I simply choose
>not to do so because I'd be a fool if I did.
>
><<...but chose instead to transport them by water. >>
>
>Sigh.....It's more EFFICIENT to do so. They had no PRACTICAL choice. You'd be a
>fool to transport goods overland when transporting them by ship is easier for
>them. That's what I mean by "no choice".  And I'm specifically talking about
>Numenor itself in this case.

They did transport the stone used for building overland from the north, and 
the passage says that the roads were unpaved in the earlier centuries.  They 
paved them later on and used the roads more often for coaches and carriages in 
the later centuries.

><<The Egyptians, on the other hand, pretty much lived along the Nile.  The 
>Numenoreans mostly lived along the coastlands, so there is another parallel 
>there, too.>>
>
>Hardly. The Egyptians depended on The Nile Delta for their livelihood. The
>Egyptian civilization basically "grew up" around (and because of) the river. A
>river, mind you...

Water is the bringer of life.

>...Not a great Ocean with vast distances to navigate...

They didn't have vast distances to navigate in the early centuries.  It was 
almost 600 years before the Numenoreans dared venture out into the open seas, 
and about another 600 years before they began colonizing Middle-earth.

>...Numenor was an isolated island with a population of great seafarers who
>would naturally have an affinity for the coastlands of Middle-earth after
>their home island was destroyed. I could just as easily talk about how the
>great Empires of Greece and Rome were essentially dependent on the
>Mediterranean Sea.

But most of their peoples did not live on the coastlands.  Rivers played a big 
part in determining where their colonies went, but they had strong land-bound 
traditions.  The Athenians had the fleet, the Spartans had the army.  Once the 
Romans cleared the Mediterranean of pirates they didn't have much need for a 
navy (though they maintained one in the English Channel).  They were not like 
Numenor.

>...Any parallels in this specific case can be applied to great cultures other
>than Egypt.

Hardly.  Egypt's close identification with the Nile as a source for food, 
transport, and defense is similar to the Dunedain's dependence on the 
coastlands.  Arnor broke the mold.

>By the way, give me a direct quote where Tolkien specifically states that his
>decision to use the device of the North-South kingdoms is influenced directly
>by Egypt, and I'll change my mind.

His letter comparing Arnor and Gondor to the Egyptian kingdoms is the quote 
you're asking for.  But if what the author uses as a basis for comparison to 
illustrate his point (that they were best pictured in 'Egyptian' terms) isn't 
sufficient, then I doubt anything else he could have written will suffice, 
either.

><<And the Egyptian Pharaohs were priest-kings, like the Numenoreans.  But the 
>Numenoreans were intensely interested in the stars before they became great 
>seafarers,>>
>
>Most cultures are. Name me a great civilization that does not have a great
>interest in the stars...

Rome.  Greece.  Astrology didn't figure prominently in their cultures.  Nor in 
Carthage.

>...Most cultures teach themselves astronomy through necessity, and astrology
>becomes a cultural outgrowth of that. People need to know the ebb and flow of
>the seasons; when to sow, when to harvest...

Watching the sun takes care of that.

>...How to navigate by sea in many cases...

Mediterranean navigation wasn't depended on star constellations.  The ships 
mostly stayed close to land as they travelled around.

>...The Aztecs knew jack-squat about seafaring, but astronomy and astrology
>were extremely important to them. It was part of their identity as a culture.
>Again, it's suicidal for a culture NOT to know these things.

Hardly.  And the Aztecs, Olmecs, and Maya were not like the Numenoreans (nor 
compared to them by Tolkien).

><<There is still no reason to presume that and the Gondorians did not travel as
>far as the Numenoreans.->>
>
>Whether the Men of Gondor traveled is irrelevant.

It's quite relevant.

>...They retained many of the cultural traditions of Numenor in exile. That's
>a perfectly natural and reasonable expectation.

Yes, and Tolkien felt they were best pictured in 'Egyptian' terms, because 
they resembled the Egyptians in MANY ways.


-- 
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   \\//                 Looking for Web-based discussion forums?
   //\\                   Check out the Message Board Directory!
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######

From: "Thomas Coles" <cazel@cazel.f9.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <384FF40D.F06FCD5C@mediaone.net> <82ourh$2a8_004@news.uswest.net>
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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I believ that the weapons of all the common warriors should be simple and
functional; while the more ornate should be reserved for the kings and
leaders

Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:82ourh$2a8_004@news.uswest.net...
> In article <384FF40D.F06FCD5C@mediaone.net>, Cian <waldhari@mediaone.net>
wrote:
> >Might as well add my preference regarding the 'Evil blades' too -- a
> >profusion of skulls, bones, misshapen faces and the like, do not for me,
> >make an otherwise much simpler weapon appear more terrifying. Hmm, will
we
> >see tLotNazgul brandishing a 'Flamberge' :)
>
> Well, assuming the barrow blades somehow make it into the movies, they
SHOULD
> be ornamental in appearance.
>
>
> --
>   \\  //   Worlds of Imagination on the Web      info@xenite.org
>    \\//    FREE!  Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org!
>    //\\                        [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
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######

From: jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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<< ><<The Egyptians, on the other hand, pretty much lived along the Nile.  The 
>Numenoreans mostly lived along the coastlands, so there is another parallel 
>there, too.>>
>
>Hardly. The Egyptians depended on The Nile Delta for their livelihood. The
>Egyptian civilization basically "grew up" around (and because of) the river. A
>river, mind you...

Water is the bringer of life. >>

No kidding. That's why comparisons of this nature can be made to many cultures,
not just Egypt. Of the 100 greatest cities ever constructed by human beings,
how many do you think were NOT either direct ports on the Sea or on the banks
of a river. You could name a handful, but not many more than that.

 << >...Numenor was an isolated island with a population of great seafarers who
>would naturally have an affinity for the coastlands of Middle-earth after
>their home island was destroyed. I could just as easily talk about how the
>great Empires of Greece and Rome were essentially dependent on the
>Mediterranean Sea.

<<But most of their peoples did not live on the coastlands.>>

I didn't say they did.

<< Once the 
Romans cleared the Mediterranean...They were not like 
Numenor. >>

In this context, neither were the Egyptians. Depending on a river for
subsistence is not the same as being a great seafaring people.

>...Most cultures teach themselves astronomy through necessity, and astrology
>becomes a cultural outgrowth of that. People need to know the ebb and flow of
>the seasons; when to sow, when to harvest...

<<Watching the sun takes care of that.>>

No, it doesn't. Teaching yourself basic astronomy is the first step to coming
up with a workable calendar that you can depend on. The phases of the moon, the
fact that the constellations and star positions usually differ in different
seasons and the length of the day are all important considerations. Saying
"watching the sun takes care of that" is simplistic and just plain wrong. Do
you think the Chinese, Babylonians and Meso-Americans (to name a few) were just
doing it for kicks?

>...How to navigate by sea in many cases...

Mediterranean navigation wasn't depended on star constellations.  The ships 
mostly stayed close to land as they travelled around. >>

I'm not talking about the Mediterraneans in this case. Use the Polynesians for
a better analogy if you like. (and please don't respond with "But the
Polynesians weren't like Numenor". You know that's not the point).

<< >...The Aztecs knew jack-squat about seafaring, but astronomy and astrology
>were extremely important to them. It was part of their identity as a culture.
>Again, it's suicidal for a culture NOT to know these things.

Hardly.  And the Aztecs, Olmecs, and Maya were not like the Numenoreans (nor 
compared to them by Tolkien). >>

I'm sorry, but you seem to be more obstinate than usual today. I never SAID the
Aztecs were like Numenor. I used them to illustrate the point that a land-based
culture would have plenty of good reasons for developing an astronomical and
astrological tradition apart from seafaring. The fact that both Numenor and
Egypt had an interest in astronomy/astrology is not an indication that this
connection was in JRR's mind when he created Numenor. Other cultures have
similar traditions.

<< >...Any parallels in this specific case can be applied to great cultures
other
>than Egypt.

Hardly.  Egypt's close identification with the Nile as a source for food, 
transport, and defense is similar to the Dunedain's dependence on the 
coastlands.>>

That's really stretching it in my view.

<< >By the way, give me a direct quote where Tolkien specifically states that
his
>decision to use the device of the North-South kingdoms is influenced directly
>by Egypt, and I'll change my mind.

His letter comparing Arnor and Gondor to the Egyptian kingdoms is the quote 
you're asking for.  But if what the author uses as a basis for comparison to 
illustrate his point (that they were best pictured in 'Egyptian' terms) isn't 
sufficient, then I doubt anything else he could have written will suffice, 
either. >>

Thank you. I'll take that as a "No".  He could have just as easily hearkened
back to his own religious traditions and could have been thinking of Israel and
Judah instead. My point being that just because Tolkien says Egypt and Numenor
are similar in "many" ways, does not mean than any potential shared
characteristics that we can think of were connected in Tolkien's mind. It
doesn't give us a license to think up even tenuous, coincidental connections
between the two societies and presume Tolkien wanted us to draw that
connection. He's not explicit enough on this issue for that.

<< ><<There is still no reason to presume that and the Gondorians did not
travel as
>far as the Numenoreans.->>
>
>Whether the Men of Gondor traveled is irrelevant.

<<It's quite relevant.>>

Not to this discussion.

>...They retained many of the cultural traditions of Numenor in exile. That's
>a perfectly natural and reasonable expectation.

<<Yes, and Tolkien felt they were best pictured in 'Egyptian' terms, because 
they resembled the Egyptians in MANY ways. >>

Yes, and that doesn't give us the right to speculate and determine which facts
are collected under the umbrella of "many", and which aren't. I consider the
penchant for building large and massive monuments a direct connection that can
be made without argument, because Tolkien talks about it. It's worth mentioning
again that Tolkien goes out of his way to talk about how the theologies of the
two societies were quite different. It's as if he's bending over backwards to
indicate that Numenor was kind of like Egypt, but not TOO much like it. Which
is what I've been saying.

I consider the obsession with tombs and the dead to be a direct parallel with
Egypt that can be strongly made. I consider the interest in astronomy/astrology
to be a coincidental connection that is weak at best, because so many other
cultures had the same interest. That's the point.

-King



" I know what fakery looks like" -James Randi

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <836iob$k08$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19991215000048.18510.00000988@ng-fv1.aol.com>
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Kingasaurus hath written:

[snip]
>
><<The Egyptians' love of animals and the Numenoreans' love of animals is
>another
>example of the parallels he envisioned,>>
>
>The love of animals is hardly specific to one culture. It's sort of like
saying
>both Numenor and Egypt had a King, so that qualifies as a similarity.


In which way are we told that the Númenoreans loved animals?

Öjevind

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <384FF40D.F06FCD5C@mediaone.net> <82ourh$2a8_004@news.uswest.net> <eMQ54.40101$N5.150732@wards>
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In article <eMQ54.40101$N5.150732@wards>, "Thomas Coles" <cazel@cazel.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:82ourh$2a8_004@news.uswest.net...
>> In article <384FF40D.F06FCD5C@mediaone.net>, Cian <waldhari@mediaone.net>
>wrote:
>> >Might as well add my preference regarding the 'Evil blades' too -- a
>> >profusion of skulls, bones, misshapen faces and the like, do not for me,
>> >make an otherwise much simpler weapon appear more terrifying. Hmm, will
>> >we see tLotNazgul brandishing a 'Flamberge' :)
>>
>> Well, assuming the barrow blades somehow make it into the movies, they
>> SHOULD be ornamental in appearance.
>
>I believ that the weapons of all the common warriors should be simple and
>functional; while the more ornate should be reserved for the kings and
>leaders

Absolutely, but the barrow blades came from the tomb of a dead Dunadan prince 
(supposedly -- Tolkien only strongly implies this, but he usually means that 
is the case with such strong implications).


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <838qpm$28g_012@news.uswest.net>
References: <838id6$174_006@news.uswest.net> <19991215132729.18496.00001204@ng-fv1.aol.com>
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In article <19991215132729.18496.00001204@ng-fv1.aol.com>, jeoppete@aol.com (Kingasaurus) wrote:
><< ><<The Egyptians, on the other hand, pretty much lived along the Nile.  The 
>>Numenoreans mostly lived along the coastlands, so there is another parallel 
>>there, too.>>
>>
>>Hardly. The Egyptians depended on The Nile Delta for their livelihood. The
>>Egyptian civilization basically "grew up" around (and because of) the river. A
>>river, mind you...
>
>Water is the bringer of life. >>
>
>No kidding. That's why comparisons of this nature can be made to many cultures,
>not just Egypt. Of the 100 greatest cities ever constructed by human beings,
>how many do you think were NOT either direct ports on the Sea or on the banks
>of a river. You could name a handful, but not many more than that.

You're really missing the point.  I think Mark Wells made it better than me.

Big snippage.  There seems to be no point in continuing this further.


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <838qr0$28g_014@news.uswest.net>
References: <836iob$k08$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19991215000048.18510.00000988@ng-fv1.aol.com> <pUQ54.753$W33.1197@nntpserver.swip.net>
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In article <pUQ54.753$W33.1197@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>In which way are we told that the Númenoreans loved animals?

The business about the Numenoreans and their horses (in Numenor).  They 
developed a truly close rapport with them.


-- 
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######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net> <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net> <839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net>
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On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:51:24 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:

>>The issue isn't that simple, however.  These are Elves, after all, and if
>>they can make a sword that will glow in the dark at ten paces away from an
>>Orc, they might be able to make a pattern-welded sword with a definite
>>sigil.  Mark Wells (in another reply to the previous post) was actually able
>>to find a reference to the barrow knives which suggests pattern-welding.

Just for the record, these are two separate issues.  The 'reforging' of
Narsil/Anduril probably didn't involve pattern-welding, or at least there
are no indications that it did.  The description of the barrow blades
strongly suggests that they were pattern-welded, but this would indicate
the state of the art among the Dunedain of the time, not the Elves.

>I gave that some thought before posting what I said.  I agree that the Elves, 
>being who and what they were, should be capable of producing some interesting 
>effects.  Of course, we could probably take any pattern-welded sword today to 
>a machine shop and get it inscribed with all sorts of stuff.  But think about 
>what goes into engraving metal.  It's far easier to create a mold and cast the 
>metal into the molded shape (with inscriptions made for you) than to carve 
>stuff into it.

I'm not sure about that.  With modern technology, of course, you can make
a mold out of something like aluminum oxide or even diamond, melt the
steel in an oxygen furnace, and pour it into the mold to reproduce a form
in exact detail.  But with the technology of a thousand years ago, it's
quite a bit harder to make a precise mold.  Most casting at the time was
done with sand, which doesn't give you much precision for pre-inscribing
markings of any kind.

>My feeling is that if the sword was simply reheated, they could have used 
>some sort of mold to implant the designs (but I don't know enough about 
>metallurgy or smithing to make a case for that -- and I didn't find anything 
>on the Web which discussed the possibility, though I only glanced at the tip 
>of the iceberg).

The sword was said to be 'reforged', not recast.  'Forging' specifically
refers to a process that doesn't melt the metal.  It softens it, which
would make it easier to engrave and less likely to be damaged during the
engraving process, but it doesn't melt it.

Here's a thought on 'reforging' (as with Narsil and Anglachel).  A forge
typically heats steel to a high enough temperature that its microstructure
changes, so that it's possible to heat-treat it and get a different
microstructure than what you started with.  Typically, the object is to
create a phase called 'martensite'.  The faster you cool it, the more
martensite and the less other stuff you get.  Martensite is harder and
more brittle than the other stuff, so some martensite is good but too much
is bad, which is why heat-treatment is sort of tricky.

Well, martensite isn't stable.  Over time (especially if it's at a high
temperature), it breaks down into the other stuff and the steel becomes
softer and more malleable.  This isn't a good thing for a sword.  So it's
possible that every few years or so it would be a good idea to put the
blade back on the forge and reapply the heat treatment.  Hence
'reforging'.

Does this sound plausible?

######

From: "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net>
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net...
> In article <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks"
<Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
> >That's right...send me back to the books... :-)
> >
> >Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
> >news:834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net...
> >> Tolkien did not model any of his weapons on the pattern-welded blades.
> >
> >I think it might be difficult to prove that either way.  Unfortunately
(and
> >I may be wrong; I am coming up to my bi-annual reading of LotR, and some
> >details are not as fresh in my mind as I would like), I can't recall many
> >real descriptions of what the sword blades look like, aside from "long,"
> >"shiny," or "naked."  I have, however, found on page 269 a description of
> >Anduril: "...and on its blade was traced a device of seven starts set
> >between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written
many
> >runes".  This may (or may not) describe a pattern-welded blade; Tolkien
> >writes that it is reforged, but not HOW.  For all we know, the Elven
smiths
> >wove the runes into the pattern of the blade, or they could have just
been
> >carved into a Viking-style sword.
>
> A pattern-welded blade could not contain such intricate tracings.
Historical
> pattern welded blades got their patterns from the twisted bars.

The issue isn't that simple, however.  These are Elves, after all, and if
they can make a sword that will glow in the dark at ten paces away from an
Orc, they might be able to make a pattern-welded sword with a definite
sigil.  Mark Wells (in another reply to the previous post) was actually able
to find a reference to the barrow knives which suggests pattern-welding.

[Snip what seems to be some very good sources for pattern-welding.]

> >I find it hard to believe, though, considering Tolkien's inspirations,
that
> >he could have completely neglected the pattern-welded sword from his
vision
> >of LotR.  The scene in the barrow, for example, has definite shades of
> >Beowulf in it, and that poem made reference exclusively to pattern-welded
> >swords (LotR, however, calls the wight's sword "long" and "naked", and
thus
> >isn't much help here).  Considering how widespread the technique of
> >pattern-welding was, though, anything Celtic or "Dark Ages" (as a
> >Medievalist, I must point out that this term is virtually meaningless,
but
> >more people will think of 450-800 AD than if I use "Migration period")
> >involving swords would have to involve pattern-welded blades.  Oakeshott
> >writes:
>
> "Beowulf" is a much overrated source of inspiration for Tolkien (and most
of
> the comparisons I've seen between Tolkien's work and the poem show a
certain
> stretch of imagination goes into identifying alleged borrowings).

Ah...I fear you misread me here as I misread you later in the post.  I did
not say that the barrow scene had been lifted part and parcel from Beowulf,
but that there were definite shades of it in the scene.  I am thinking
mainly of the bit in Beowulf when Wiglaf goes into the Dragon's cave as
Beowulf is dying and discovers the treasure, which is of a similar nature (I
don't think there's a golden banner in the barrow in LotR, though).

> >You've actually fallen into a common misconception about the Middle Ages,
> >which is that the entire time was marked with a Feudal system.
>
> Don't make the mistake of assuming that because I address the concerns
raised
> by others I share those perceptions.

Ah...I must have misread you.  Please accept my apologies for it.

> >The Riders of Rohan are definitely a society of the early Middle Ages,
> >patterned after the Germanic tribes of the Migration era (from 400-800
AD,
> >approximately).
>
> Not even closely.  They are an idealized society sharing no parallels with
any
> historical peoples in such detail.
>
> >...Besides their language (which can be put down to creative
> >license), the riders also have a system of halls and thegns/retainers and
> >familial relationships that were the hallmarks of the Germanic tribes in
> >this period.
>
> You're inferring much which is not stipulated by Tolkien.  We have
precisely
> one hall in all of Rohan, and only the king had knights (his household
> knights) to serve him.  Eomer's Eored were Riders of Rohan, drawn from the
> Muster of the East-Mark.  They were not his personal retainers.  There is
> nothing like the army of Rohan even among the Goths, who arguably had the
most
> advanced military tradition because of their long association with the
empire.

Well, Tolkien doesn't actually tell us a great deal about the lay of the
land in Rohan.  The terminology he uses, however, is what I would consider
to be definitely Germanic.  Eodoras is a "hall" rather than a palace or
castle, and his familial relations (Eomer as Theoden's "sister-son") and the
terminologies used remind me of the Germanic tribes more than anything else.
The greeting of Gandalf in Eodoras is very similar to the greeting of
Beowulf by Hrothgar (leaving the weapons in the care of a retainer, the
greetings passed: "Waes thu Theoden hal!" from LotR and "Waes thu Hrothgar
hal!" from Beowulf, etc.).  You are definitely right about the Riders; they
resemble something much closer to the late Middle Ages or early Modern
period.  However, much of the non-military is Germanic.

> >Gondor could also be compared to the structure of the Carolingian Empire,
> >but I am saying this with great caution, as not only is it late here, but
> >(again), I also haven't read the book in about two years.
>
> There is nothing even remotely Carolingian in Gondor.  Certainly the kings
> didn't travel about from estate to estate or city to city eating up the
local
> supplies.  And the Gondorians were not only literate, they were the
remnant of
> their own ancient empire, not late-comers trying to piece together a
previous
> empire out of some romantic or political ideal.

[Snip some excellent historical comparisons]

> Hence, there is no correspondence between the appearance of the office of
> Steward in Gondor and the rise of the Major Domus of the Frankish kings or
the
> Stigweard of the Anglo-Saxon kings.

I stand corrected.  Out of curiosity, do you have a degree in this subject
matter too?  You are remarkably well informed.

> >Many of the structures, however, could be rather generically "mythic".
For
> >example, the high number of swordsmen/orcs.  Throughout history, the
sword
> >has been an incredibly important, but fairly rare weapon, usually the
weapon
> >of the nobility.  The most common weapon was the pike/spear or axe, which
> >was easier to make in vast numbers, and did not carry the import of the
> >sword.  However, most mythical heroes tend to be of noble blood, and
swords
> >are more common than axes or spears in most of the sagas I've read (but I
am
> >just beginning, so I might be wrong).
>
> Swords were common enough weapons among the ancient Celts who invaded
Greece
> and Italy, and the Greek and Roman soldiers normally carried swords as
well
> (not to mention other classical peoples).

Well, swords do get the most press (so to speak; I have a feeling I just
cracked a horrible pun there).  However, I think it is worth pointing out
that the main military unit of the Classical Greek world was the phalanx,
which was a unit of spears.

> >I guess, to conclude what has become a long and rambling contribution, I
can
> >suggest that Tolkien was using the structures he knew best, being
mythology
> >and the early Middle Ages (he was, after all, one of the foremost
> >Anglo-Saxonists of his day)....
>
> This is ridiculous.  Tolkien was trained in the classics and he knew them
> quite well, having read them in the original Greek and Latin.  He often
> alluded to classical leaders in his letters (including Alexander, more
than
> once).  The man saw far more than medieval history when he looked at the
past,
> and he certainly devoted a lot time and attention to appreciating the
> classical period.  The first ancient Germanic language he learned was
Gothic,
> a classical language.

Er...I hate to point this out, but I think in Tolkien's time everybody who
went through the English university system in the Liberal Arts ended up well
versed in the classical period.  In fact, as I recall, the field of
philology and early Medieval history was a new field.

> Tolkien is all too often given short shrift by modern fans who see him as
> nothing more than a medieval Anglo-Saxon expert.  He was a linguist, not a
> medievalist.  He certainly didn't call himself a medievalist.  He viewed
> himself as a philologist.  There is a very great difference between the
two.
> What he knew best were languages, and they were the heart and soul of his
> academic and professional careers.

He was more than an Anglo-Saxonist.  But, he was also primarily defined as
one.  His positions at the university were positions pertaining to Old
English and Old Norse, with some work in Middle English literature, and in
one lecture (Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics) he set the entire
critical stance on Beowulf studies.  The position that Tom Shippey took over
when Tolkien retired was as an Anglo-Saxonist (I can double-check that with
Professor Shippey if you wish; he's a contributer in my Beowulf anthology).
He was much more than an Anglo-Saxonist, but as an Anglo-Saxonist he was the
best in his field.

Robert Marks

--
The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone,
And I am but a lonely wanderer, / With time my only home.
                                                     -- From Magus Draconum

######

From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:06:29 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:

>What in the barrow-blade descriptions could possibly indicate they were 
>pattern-welded?   Tolkien's use of the word "damasked"?  Tolkien had a habit 
>of using old words in new ways.  "serpent-forms in red and gold" is pretty 
>sophisticated pattern-welding.

Yes, both of those.  The description sounds pretty ornate for
pattern-welding, but the 'serpent-forms' are about the clearest signal
anyone could possibly give to indicate that these are supposed to be
pattern-welded.  As for _how_ they made such sophisticated blades, they
were in contact with the Elves, who, as you say, had very advanced methods
of manipulating matter.  If the Dunedain were able to empower these blades
with curses against the forces of Angmar, making them look pretty doesn't
seem very difficult.

>>I'm not sure about that.  With modern technology, of course, you can make
>>a mold out of something like aluminum oxide or even diamond, melt the
>>steel in an oxygen furnace, and pour it into the mold to reproduce a form
>>in exact detail.  But with the technology of a thousand years ago, it's
>>quite a bit harder to make a precise mold.  Most casting at the time was
>>done with sand, which doesn't give you much precision for pre-inscribing
>>markings of any kind.
>
>But the Elves wouldn't have had a technology from a thousand years ago.  They 
>were very advanced, and quite capable of manipulating matter.  Don't forget 
>the Silmarils, Elessar, Palantiri, and other Elvish delights.

In that case, I suppose Narsil might have been a better blade after it was
broken and reforged than when it was first made.  Or maybe not.

[snip stuff about re-austenitizing the blade for better heat treatment]

>>Does this sound plausible?
>
>I think that's a little too drastic.  I suspect some good old Noldorin 
>subcreational ingenuity was applied.

So they heated the blade up and then thought at it.  I guess that works.

######

From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Robert B. Marks wrote:

>Well, Tolkien doesn't actually tell us a
>great deal about the lay of the land in
>Rohan. The terminology he uses,
>however, is what I would consider to be
>definitely Germanic. Eodoras is a "hall"
>rather than a palace or castle, and his
>familial relations (Eomer as Theoden's
>"sister-son") and the terminologies used
>remind me of the Germanic tribes more
>than anything else. The greeting of
>Gandalf in Eodoras is very similar to the
>greeting of Beowulf by Hrothgar (leaving
>the weapons in the care of a retainer, the
>greetings passed: "Waes thu Theoden
>hal!" from LotR and "Waes thu Hrothgar
>hal!" from Beowulf, etc.). You are
>definitely right about the Riders; they
>resemble something much closer to the
>late Middle Ages or early Modern period.
>However, much of the non-military is
>Germanic.

For what it's worth, there are some comments on the political and
military organization of Rohan in the notes to "The Battle of the Fords
of Isen" in UT.
As for  the use of Old English as the language of the Rohirrim, this is
simply a matter of "translation".  As Tolkien explains in Appendix F to
LotR, the language of the Rohirrim was related to Westron in a manner
similar to how Old English is related to modern English.  Thus, the
words that are supposed to be "Westron" in the "original text" of the
Red Book are translated into English, while the words in the language of
the people of Rohan is translated into Old English.  I believe that
Tolkien stated that this was the only parallel between the Rohirrim and
the Anglo-Saxons. 

--Dave

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
>Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net...
>> A pattern-welded blade could not contain such intricate tracings.
>> Historical pattern welded blades got their patterns from the
>> twisted bars.
>
>The issue isn't that simple, however.  These are Elves, after all, and if
>they can make a sword that will glow in the dark at ten paces away from an
>Orc, they might be able to make a pattern-welded sword with a definite
>sigil.  Mark Wells (in another reply to the previous post) was actually able
>to find a reference to the barrow knives which suggests pattern-welding.

I gave that some thought before posting what I said.  I agree that the Elves, 
being who and what they were, should be capable of producing some interesting 
effects.  Of course, we could probably take any pattern-welded sword today to 
a machine shop and get it inscribed with all sorts of stuff.  But think about 
what goes into engraving metal.  It's far easier to create a mold and cast the 
metal into the molded shape (with inscriptions made for you) than to carve 
stuff into it.

My feeling is that if the sword was simply reheated, they could have used 
some sort of mold to implant the designs (but I don't know enough about 
metallurgy or smithing to make a case for that -- and I didn't find anything 
on the Web which discussed the possibility, though I only glanced at the tip 
of the iceberg).

>> "Beowulf" is a much overrated source of inspiration for Tolkien (and most
>> of the comparisons I've seen between Tolkien's work and the poem show a
>> certain stretch of imagination goes into identifying alleged borrowings).
>
>Ah...I fear you misread me here as I misread you later in the post.  I did
>not say that the barrow scene had been lifted part and parcel from Beowulf,
>but that there were definite shades of it in the scene.  I am thinking
>mainly of the bit in Beowulf when Wiglaf goes into the Dragon's cave as
>Beowulf is dying and discovers the treasure, which is of a similar nature (I
>don't think there's a golden banner in the barrow in LotR, though).

Oh.  Sorry.

>> >...Besides their language (which can be put down to creative
>> >license), the riders also have a system of halls and thegns/retainers and
>> >familial relationships that were the hallmarks of the Germanic tribes in
>> >this period.
>>
>> You're inferring much which is not stipulated by Tolkien.  We have
>> precisely one hall in all of Rohan, and only the king had knights
>> (his household knights) to serve him.  Eomer's Eored were Riders of
>> Rohan, drawn from the Muster of the East-Mark.  They were not his
>> personal retainers.  There is nothing like the army of Rohan even
>> among the Goths, who arguably had the most advanced military tradition
>> because of their long association with the empire.
>
>Well, Tolkien doesn't actually tell us a great deal about the lay of the
>land in Rohan.  The terminology he uses, however, is what I would consider
>to be definitely Germanic.  Eodoras is a "hall" rather than a palace or
>castle, and his familial relations (Eomer as Theoden's "sister-son") and the
>terminologies used remind me of the Germanic tribes more than anything else.
>The greeting of Gandalf in Eodoras is very similar to the greeting of
>Beowulf by Hrothgar (leaving the weapons in the care of a retainer, the
>greetings passed: "Waes thu Theoden hal!" from LotR and "Waes thu Hrothgar
>hal!" from Beowulf, etc.).  You are definitely right about the Riders; they
>resemble something much closer to the late Middle Ages or early Modern
>period.  However, much of the non-military is Germanic.

Nonetheless, you're inferring things.  I infer things, too, but we tread on 
thin ice when we start extrapolating from our inferences (which is why I tend 
to confine most of mine to the White Council -- I can delete threads if things 
start to get out of hand).

>> Hence, there is no correspondence between the appearance of the office of
>> Steward in Gondor and the rise of the Major Domus of the Frankish kings or
>> the Stigweard of the Anglo-Saxon kings.
>
>I stand corrected.  Out of curiosity, do you have a degree in this subject
>matter too?  You are remarkably well informed.

I lacked 1 or 2 classes for getting a degree in History, and 1 class for 
getting a degree in English Literature when I graduated with my degree in 
Computer Science (I had already gotten a degree in Data Processing).

That doesn't make me a historian, but I feel I had some very good History 
professors, and they certainly encouraged me to continue my studies after 
college even though I finally decided NOT to major in History.

>> Swords were common enough weapons among the ancient Celts who invaded
>> Greece and Italy, and the Greek and Roman soldiers normally carried
>> swords as well (not to mention other classical peoples).
>
>Well, swords do get the most press (so to speak; I have a feeling I just
>cracked a horrible pun there).  However, I think it is worth pointing out
>that the main military unit of the Classical Greek world was the phalanx,
>which was a unit of spears.

But all the soldiers in the phalans were also armed with swords.  Of course, I 
didn't make too big a point of that because they tended to be wealthier 
members of society.  All their bronze/iron armor and weapons required 
considerable wealth, and the phalanxes were supported by other troops who got 
less press and were considerably less well-armed (so only threw rocks, though 
with deadly accuracy, I'm sure).

>> This is ridiculous.  Tolkien was trained in the classics and he knew them
>> quite well, having read them in the original Greek and Latin.  He often
>> alluded to classical leaders in his letters (including Alexander, more
>> than once).  The man saw far more than medieval history when he looked
>> at the past, and he certainly devoted a lot time and attention to
>> appreciating the classical period.  The first ancient Germanic language
>> he learned was Gothic, a classical language.
>
>Er...I hate to point this out, but I think in Tolkien's time everybody who
>went through the English university system in the Liberal Arts ended up well
>versed in the classical period.  In fact, as I recall, the field of
>philology and early Medieval history was a new field.

Tolkien's grounding in the classics began earlier than that, however.  Father 
Francis ensured that Ronald was prepared for university by sending him to a 
good school.  I don't know if Hilary benefitted from a similar education, but 
JRRT was definitely set on the path for achievement by his guardian at an 
early age.  In fact, that seems to have been the primary reason the good 
Father opposed Tolkien's relationship with Edith Bratt.  Carpenter gives the 
impression that Father Francis was afraid she'd derail the young man's 
academic career.

Philology, nonetheless, was not the discipline of medieval studies, and people 
often forget that Tolkien's professional work was not limited to Anglo-Saxon.

>> Tolkien is all too often given short shrift by modern fans who see him as
>> nothing more than a medieval Anglo-Saxon expert.  He was a linguist, not a
>> medievalist.  He certainly didn't call himself a medievalist.  He viewed
>> himself as a philologist.  There is a very great difference between the
>> two.  What he knew best were languages, and they were the heart and soul
>> of his academic and professional careers.
>
>He was more than an Anglo-Saxonist.  But, he was also primarily defined as
>one.  His positions at the university were positions pertaining to Old
>English and Old Norse, with some work in Middle English literature, and in
>one lecture (Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics) he set the entire
>critical stance on Beowulf studies.  The position that Tom Shippey took over
>when Tolkien retired was as an Anglo-Saxonist (I can double-check that with
>Professor Shippey if you wish; he's a contributer in my Beowulf anthology).
>He was much more than an Anglo-Saxonist, but as an Anglo-Saxonist he was the
>best in his field.

Nonetheless, it is misleading to characterize Tolkien as a medievalist.  I 
searched through his biography and letters before putting in the "ridiculous" 
remark.  I could find nothing which stated that Tolkien thought of or 
presented himself as a medievalist.  I could have missed something, but I've 
never seen any such passage that I can recall.

I hesitate to mention his Biblical work.  He himself made light of it, but he 
does list several books on which he worked and that he was asked to help at 
all is a credit to his reputation as a linguist in the classical languages.

And he tended to lump "Beowulf" in with the Greek and Roman classics anyway.  
I think he held a much larger view of the past than people give him credit 
for.

I would be interested, nonetheless, in hearing Shippey's opinion on whether 
Tolkien regarded himself as a medievalist.


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
   \\//                 Looking for Web-based discussion forums?
   //\\                   Check out the Message Board Directory!
  //  \\ENITE.org...............................................

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <slrn85gnvo.5k0.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:51:24 GMT, Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote:
>
>>>The issue isn't that simple, however.  These are Elves, after all, and if
>>>they can make a sword that will glow in the dark at ten paces away from an
>>>Orc, they might be able to make a pattern-welded sword with a definite
>>>sigil.  Mark Wells (in another reply to the previous post) was actually able
>>>to find a reference to the barrow knives which suggests pattern-welding.
>
>Just for the record, these are two separate issues.  The 'reforging' of
>Narsil/Anduril probably didn't involve pattern-welding, or at least there
>are no indications that it did.  The description of the barrow blades
>strongly suggests that they were pattern-welded, but this would indicate
>the state of the art among the Dunedain of the time, not the Elves.

What in the barrow-blade descriptions could possibly indicate they were 
pattern-welded?   Tolkien's use of the word "damasked"?  Tolkien had a habit 
of using old words in new ways.  "serpent-forms in red and gold" is pretty 
sophisticated pattern-welding.

Still, I thought it was Anduril that was being discussed here.  Your 
interpretation seems reasonable.

>>I gave that some thought before posting what I said.  I agree that the Elves, 
>>being who and what they were, should be capable of producing some interesting 
>>effects.  Of course, we could probably take any pattern-welded sword today to 
>>a machine shop and get it inscribed with all sorts of stuff.  But think about 
>>what goes into engraving metal.  It's far easier to create a mold and cast
>>the metal into the molded shape (with inscriptions made for you) than to
>>carve stuff into it.
>
>I'm not sure about that.  With modern technology, of course, you can make
>a mold out of something like aluminum oxide or even diamond, melt the
>steel in an oxygen furnace, and pour it into the mold to reproduce a form
>in exact detail.  But with the technology of a thousand years ago, it's
>quite a bit harder to make a precise mold.  Most casting at the time was
>done with sand, which doesn't give you much precision for pre-inscribing
>markings of any kind.

But the Elves wouldn't have had a technology from a thousand years ago.  They 
were very advanced, and quite capable of manipulating matter.  Don't forget 
the Silmarils, Elessar, Palantiri, and other Elvish delights.

>>My feeling is that if the sword was simply reheated, they could have used 
>>some sort of mold to implant the designs (but I don't know enough about 
>>metallurgy or smithing to make a case for that -- and I didn't find anything 
>>on the Web which discussed the possibility, though I only glanced at the tip 
>>of the iceberg).
>
>The sword was said to be 'reforged', not recast.  'Forging' specifically
>refers to a process that doesn't melt the metal.  It softens it, which
>would make it easier to engrave and less likely to be damaged during the
>engraving process, but it doesn't melt it.

I didn't say it had been recast.  I suggested it only needed to be reheated.  
You can impress a shape or pattern on heated metal.  I've done that much 
myself.  Forging does include that capability.

>Here's a thought on 'reforging' (as with Narsil and Anglachel).  A forge
>typically heats steel to a high enough temperature that its microstructure
>changes, so that it's possible to heat-treat it and get a different
>microstructure than what you started with.  Typically, the object is to
>create a phase called 'martensite'.  The faster you cool it, the more
>martensite and the less other stuff you get.  Martensite is harder and
>more brittle than the other stuff, so some martensite is good but too much
>is bad, which is why heat-treatment is sort of tricky.
>
>Well, martensite isn't stable.  Over time (especially if it's at a high
>temperature), it breaks down into the other stuff and the steel becomes
>softer and more malleable.  This isn't a good thing for a sword.  So it's
>possible that every few years or so it would be a good idea to put the
>blade back on the forge and reapply the heat treatment.  Hence
>'reforging'.
>
>Does this sound plausible?

I think that's a little too drastic.  I suspect some good old Noldorin 
subcreational ingenuity was applied.



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Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <83a2n8$po_002@news.uswest.net>
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net> <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net> <839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net> <slrn85gnvo.5k0.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <839s0l$394_002@news.uswest.net> <slrn85h0ve.5nu.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>
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In article <slrn85h0ve.5nu.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>I think that's a little too drastic.  I suspect some good old Noldorin 
>>subcreational ingenuity was applied.
>
>So they heated the blade up and then thought at it.  I guess that works.

I would say they sang as they heated it and beat it into shape.

Lead Elven Smith:  And now I'm heating the blade!
Chorus:  He's HEA-ting the blade!  He's HEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith:  And now I'm heating the blade!
Chorus:  He's HEA-ting the blade!  He's HEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith: And now I'm beating the blade!
Chorus:  He's BEA-ting the blade!  He's BEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith: And now I'm beating the blade!
Chorus:  He's BEA-ting the blade!  He's BEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith:  And now I'm heating the blade!
Chorus:  He's HEA-ting the blade!  He's HEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith:  And now I'm heating the blade!
Chorus:  He's HEA-ting the blade!  He's HEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith: And now I'm beating the blade!
Chorus:  He's BEA-ting the blade!  He's BEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith: And now I'm beating the blade!
Chorus:  He's BEA-ting the blade!  He's BEA-ting the blade!
Lead Elven Smith: And now I'm putting in the Sun and Moon!
Chorus:  He's putting in the Sun!  He's putting in the Moon!
         Gonna be a fancy sword very soo-oon!
Lead Elven Smith: And now I'm putting in the Sun and Moon!
Chorus:  He's putting in the Sun!  He's putting in the Moon!
         Gonna be a fancy sword very soo-oon!


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######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy
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On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:00:56 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) wrote:

>In article <slrn85h0ve.5nu.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>>>I think that's a little too drastic.  I suspect some good old Noldorin 
>>>subcreational ingenuity was applied.
>>
>>So they heated the blade up and then thought at it.  I guess that works.
>
>I would say they sang as they heated it and beat it into shape.

I still maintain that Elven magic can be expressed without song or
vocalization of any kind--in this case, that the smiths would produce
'magical' effects by what would appear to outsiders to be normal
forging techniques.  That's my pet theory and I'm sticking to it.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <83b1t9$16s_006@news.uswest.net>
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net> <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net> <839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net> <slrn85gnvo.5k0.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <839s0l$394_002@news.uswest.net> <slrn85h0ve.5nu.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <83a2n8$po_002@news.uswest.net> <3858a581.374206831@news.pc-intouch.com>
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In article <3858a581.374206831@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>
>I still maintain that Elven magic can be expressed without song or
>vocalization of any kind--in this case, that the smiths would produce
>'magical' effects by what would appear to outsiders to be normal
>forging techniques.  That's my pet theory and I'm sticking to it.

But it doesn't ROCK....


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######

From: "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net> <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net> <839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net> <slrn85gnvo.5k0.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <839s0l$394_002@news.uswest.net> <slrn85h0ve.5nu.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com> <83a2n8$po_002@news.uswest.net> <3858a581.374206831@news.pc-intouch.com>
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:41:14 -0500
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Mark Wells <mark@pc-intouch.com> wrote in message
news:3858a581.374206831@news.pc-intouch.com...
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:00:56 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
> Martinez) wrote:
>
> >In article <slrn85h0ve.5nu.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com>,
mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
> >>>I think that's a little too drastic.  I suspect some good old Noldorin
> >>>subcreational ingenuity was applied.
> >>
> >>So they heated the blade up and then thought at it.  I guess that works.
> >
> >I would say they sang as they heated it and beat it into shape.
>
> I still maintain that Elven magic can be expressed without song or
> vocalization of any kind--in this case, that the smiths would produce
> 'magical' effects by what would appear to outsiders to be normal
> forging techniques.  That's my pet theory and I'm sticking to it.

There is a novel by Stephen Grundy titled "Rhinegold" which has a magical
sword forged.  The magic is put into the sword by the use of logs carved
with runes which are burned under the blade as it is forged.

In Tolkienian terms, though, I suppose that would be more Dwarvish than
Elven.

I wonder, though...if the Elves were singing as they reforged Aragorn's
sword, were they singing to Wagner?

Robert Marks, ducking as a couple of magical swords get tossed his way...

--
The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone,
And I am but a lonely wanderer, / With time my only home.
                                                     -- From Magus Draconum

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <83bg4k$1bo_022@news.uswest.net>
References: <836iob$k08$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <19991215000048.18510.00000988@ng-fv1.aol.com> <pUQ54.753$W33.1197@nntpserver.swip.net> <838qr0$28g_014@news.uswest.net> <Beb64.1305$W33.2814@nntpserver.swip.net>
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In article <Beb64.1305$W33.2814@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>Michael Martinez hath written:
>
>>"Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>In which way are we told that the Númenoreans loved animals?
>>
>>The business about the Numenoreans and their horses (in Numenor).  They
>>developed a truly close rapport with them.
>
>
>Is there any indication at all that this love of horses was carried over to
>Middle-earth?

"The Paths of the Dead".


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From: "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net...
> >The issue isn't that simple, however.  These are Elves, after all, and if
> >they can make a sword that will glow in the dark at ten paces away from
an
> >Orc, they might be able to make a pattern-welded sword with a definite
> >sigil.  Mark Wells (in another reply to the previous post) was actually
able
> >to find a reference to the barrow knives which suggests pattern-welding.
>
> I gave that some thought before posting what I said.  I agree that the
Elves,
> being who and what they were, should be capable of producing some
interesting
> effects.  Of course, we could probably take any pattern-welded sword today
to
> a machine shop and get it inscribed with all sorts of stuff.  But think
about
> what goes into engraving metal.  It's far easier to create a mold and cast
the
> metal into the molded shape (with inscriptions made for you) than to carve
> stuff into it.

I remember hearing somewhere that a cast sword is not as strong as a forged
sword.  I do know, however, that if you actually want to buy a sword, a cast
blade is much less expensive (and considered to be of lower quality) than a
forged blade.  But those are modern blades, and I'm not quite sure how
relevant they are to all of this.

I guess if what I've said above is true, than it becomes a bit unlikely that
Aragorn's sword was recast.  If it hadn't been properly forged, than it
would probably snap on Orcish armour...

> My feeling is that if the sword was simply reheated, they could have used
> some sort of mold to implant the designs (but I don't know enough about
> metallurgy or smithing to make a case for that -- and I didn't find
anything
> on the Web which discussed the possibility, though I only glanced at the
tip
> of the iceberg).

The curator of the European department at the Royal Ontario Museum once
showed me a 14th century sword that had been found in two pieces at the
bottom of a river.  The sword had then been reforged into one piece.  I'm
suddenly fairly curious about whether he knows how it was done.  I'm pretty
sure it wasn't done in a cast, though.

> >Well, Tolkien doesn't actually tell us a great deal about the lay of the
> >land in Rohan.  The terminology he uses, however, is what I would
consider
> >to be definitely Germanic.  Eodoras is a "hall" rather than a palace or
> >castle, and his familial relations (Eomer as Theoden's "sister-son") and
the
> >terminologies used remind me of the Germanic tribes more than anything
else.
> >The greeting of Gandalf in Eodoras is very similar to the greeting of
> >Beowulf by Hrothgar (leaving the weapons in the care of a retainer, the
> >greetings passed: "Waes thu Theoden hal!" from LotR and "Waes thu
Hrothgar
> >hal!" from Beowulf, etc.).  You are definitely right about the Riders;
they
> >resemble something much closer to the late Middle Ages or early Modern
> >period.  However, much of the non-military is Germanic.
>
> Nonetheless, you're inferring things.  I infer things, too, but we tread
on
> thin ice when we start extrapolating from our inferences (which is why I
tend
> to confine most of mine to the White Council -- I can delete threads if
things
> start to get out of hand).

You're right.  Mind you, it is very hard to get away from inferring things.
For example, in the last two years of my degree, I ended up doing almost
exclusively work having to do with Anglo-Saxon history and literature (it
got to the point that even if I was writing a paper about marriage and the
family in the Middle Ages, it turned into a Beowulf paper), and so I
probably see a larger number of Anglo-Saxon/Germanic structures in Tolkien
than you do.

But, then again, isn't trying to prove that your bias is right part of the
fun? :-)

> >I stand corrected.  Out of curiosity, do you have a degree in this
subject
> >matter too?  You are remarkably well informed.
>
> I lacked 1 or 2 classes for getting a degree in History, and 1 class for
> getting a degree in English Literature when I graduated with my degree in
> Computer Science (I had already gotten a degree in Data Processing).
>
> That doesn't make me a historian, but I feel I had some very good History
> professors, and they certainly encouraged me to continue my studies after
> college even though I finally decided NOT to major in History.

You know, you'd make a good historian if you ever went back for an MA.

> >Well, swords do get the most press (so to speak; I have a feeling I just
> >cracked a horrible pun there).  However, I think it is worth pointing out
> >that the main military unit of the Classical Greek world was the phalanx,
> >which was a unit of spears.
>
> But all the soldiers in the phalans were also armed with swords.  Of
course, I
> didn't make too big a point of that because they tended to be wealthier
> members of society.  All their bronze/iron armor and weapons required
> considerable wealth, and the phalanxes were supported by other troops who
got
> less press and were considerably less well-armed (so only threw rocks,
though
> with deadly accuracy, I'm sure).

That just brought an interesting thought to mind:

"Hey, somebody just killed Achilles with that rock!  How are we every going
to explain this?!"

"We could say it was a poisoned arrow."

"That's not bad..."

I remember once hearing that the job of the infantryman in the latter Middle
Ages was to "run away" once the battle started, so that the knights could
fight one another.  While that's a bit simplified, it actually isn't too far
from the truth; there was a point where the knight began to actually take
over the army.  The longbow pretty much put a stop to that, though.

I guess the greatest extreme of being the "unknowns" in the Medieval army
would have been the bowmen, who didn't even get listed on the casualty rolls
(you know you're in trouble when even the catapults get better press than
you do...).

> >Er...I hate to point this out, but I think in Tolkien's time everybody wh
o
> >went through the English university system in the Liberal Arts ended up
well
> >versed in the classical period.  In fact, as I recall, the field of
> >philology and early Medieval history was a new field.
>
> Tolkien's grounding in the classics began earlier than that, however.
Father
> Francis ensured that Ronald was prepared for university by sending him to
a
> good school.  I don't know if Hilary benefitted from a similar education,
but
> JRRT was definitely set on the path for achievement by his guardian at an
> early age.  In fact, that seems to have been the primary reason the good
> Father opposed Tolkien's relationship with Edith Bratt.  Carpenter gives
the
> impression that Father Francis was afraid she'd derail the young man's
> academic career.

I stand corrected.

> I would be interested, nonetheless, in hearing Shippey's opinion on
whether
> Tolkien regarded himself as a medievalist.

I have emailed Prof. Shippey, and I'll post his answer as soon as I get it.

Robert Marks

--
The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone,
And I am but a lonely wanderer, / With time my only home.
                                                     -- From Magus Draconum

######

From: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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Michael Martinez hath written:

>"Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.lang@swipnet.se> wrote:
>>
>>In which way are we told that the Númenoreans loved animals?
>
>The business about the Numenoreans and their horses (in Numenor).  They
>developed a truly close rapport with them.


Is there any indication at all that this love of horses was carried over to
Middle-earth?

Öjevind

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <385986c5.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
>There is a novel by Stephen Grundy titled "Rhinegold" which has a magical
>sword forged.  The magic is put into the sword by the use of logs carved
>with runes which are burned under the blade as it is forged.
>
>In Tolkienian terms, though, I suppose that would be more Dwarvish than
>Elven.

Nope.  The Dwarves also seemed to use song.  And they probably would just use 
coal for their forges.

>I wonder, though...if the Elves were singing as they reforged Aragorn's
>sword, were they singing to Wagner?
>
>Robert Marks, ducking as a couple of magical swords get tossed his way...

It ain't over 'till the fat smith sings....


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
   \\//                 Looking for Web-based discussion forums?
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <38598b23.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
>Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>news:839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net...
>> I gave that some thought before posting what I said.  I agree that the
>> Elves, being who and what they were, should be capable of producing
>> some interesting effects.  Of course, we could probably take any
>> pattern-welded sword today to a machine shop and get it inscribed
>> with all sorts of stuff.  But think about what goes into engraving
>> metal.  It's far easier to create a mold and cast the metal into
>> the molded shape (with inscriptions made for you) than to carve
>> stuff into it.
>
>I remember hearing somewhere that a cast sword is not as strong as a forged
>sword.  I do know, however, that if you actually want to buy a sword, a cast
>blade is much less expensive (and considered to be of lower quality) than a
>forged blade.  But those are modern blades, and I'm not quite sure how
>relevant they are to all of this.

Pattern-welded and layered steel swords are stronger than cast blades, but the 
content of the cast weapons also determine strength to a certain degree (iron 
being stronger than bronze, bronze being stronger than copper, etc.).  There 
are accounts of ancient Celts charging into battle against Greeks and Romans 
where the Celts' swords were so poorly made that after they struck an opponent 
they would have to stop and unbend the blades.  The accounts are regarded with 
some dubiousness, I should note, as they are written by Greeks and Romans who 
were apparently trying to make fun of usually terrifying enemies....

>I guess if what I've said above is true, than it becomes a bit unlikely that
>Aragorn's sword was recast.  If it hadn't been properly forged, than it
>would probably snap on Orcish armour...

I wasn't suggesting they had melted the blade down and cast it in a mold.  
They should have been able to heat it enough that they could imprint the 
designs on the blade without destroying its basic composition.  But I was also 
under the impression that people thought Narsil might have been a 
pattern-welded blade.

>> My feeling is that if the sword was simply reheated, they could have used
>> some sort of mold to implant the designs (but I don't know enough about
>> metallurgy or smithing to make a case for that -- and I didn't find
>> anything on the Web which discussed the possibility, though I only
>> glanced at the tip of the iceberg).
>
>The curator of the European department at the Royal Ontario Museum once
>showed me a 14th century sword that had been found in two pieces at the
>bottom of a river.  The sword had then been reforged into one piece.  I'm
>suddenly fairly curious about whether he knows how it was done.  I'm pretty
>sure it wasn't done in a cast, though.

Don't even begin to associate the idea of casting with how I'm suggesting the 
sword was reforged.  That is way off the mark.

>> Nonetheless, you're inferring things.  I infer things, too, but we tread
>> on thin ice when we start extrapolating from our inferences (which is why
>> I tend to confine most of mine to the White Council -- I can delete
>> threads if things start to get out of hand).
>
>You're right.  Mind you, it is very hard to get away from inferring things.
>For example, in the last two years of my degree, I ended up doing almost
>exclusively work having to do with Anglo-Saxon history and literature (it
>got to the point that even if I was writing a paper about marriage and the
>family in the Middle Ages, it turned into a Beowulf paper), and so I
>probably see a larger number of Anglo-Saxon/Germanic structures in Tolkien
>than you do.
>
>But, then again, isn't trying to prove that your bias is right part of the
>fun? :-)

Maybe.  But I don't really have any biases in that respect.  I like the 
Anglo-Saxons a great deal.  I think they have a fascinating history.  They 
just don't fit Tolkien very well in most ways.  Not from a casual viewpoint.

Hobbits are English.  There's no doubt about that.  The Rohirrim's language 
was represented by Anglo-Saxon.  No doubting that.  Meduseld reminds some 
people of Heorot.  I think I can see why, though I've reread "Beowulf" a 
number of times and the immense disparities leap out at me from the pages 
every time.  A few ideas are borrowed from "Beowulf", such as the cup-theft, 
and the greetings of the wardens, but it's the ideas which have been borrowed, 
not the details.  And "Beowulf" is not about Anglo-Saxons anyway -- it's about 
Northmen, whom the Anglo-Saxons undoubtedly regarded as close cousins.

>> That doesn't make me a historian, but I feel I had some very good History
>> professors, and they certainly encouraged me to continue my studies after
>> college even though I finally decided NOT to major in History.
>
>You know, you'd make a good historian if you ever went back for an MA.

Thank you.  But I'm not sure I could withstand the academic environment a 
second time.  I dropped out of high school and nearly dropped out of college.  
I am not suited to that kind of process.

>"Hey, somebody just killed Achilles with that rock!  How are we every going
>to explain this?!"
>
>"We could say it was a poisoned arrow."
>
>"That's not bad..."

LOL!  Maybe the Amazons were just irate housewives who threw their boozing, 
gambling husbands out and wouldn't let them have sex until they cleaned up 
their lives....

>I remember once hearing that the job of the infantryman in the latter Middle
>Ages was to "run away" once the battle started, so that the knights could
>fight one another.  While that's a bit simplified, it actually isn't too far
>from the truth; there was a point where the knight began to actually take
>over the army.  The longbow pretty much put a stop to that, though.

I think ransoming captured knights would have become a more highly developed 
art had the longbow not interrupted the practice with actually KILLING the 
enemy.

>I guess the greatest extreme of being the "unknowns" in the Medieval army
>would have been the bowmen, who didn't even get listed on the casualty rolls
>(you know you're in trouble when even the catapults get better press than
>you do...).

In college I had a friend who traced her ancestry back to a Welsh archer who 
was knighted on the field of battle by one of the Henrys (I think it was a 
Henry).  I don't remember the details, but apparently he had done something 
extraordinary that not only merited attention but a knighthood.


-- 
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######

From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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In article <83808q$1lo_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) writes:

>.  The other parallels are clear, and the fact 
>that Tolkien said there were many similarities nips in the bud all attempts
>to distract us away from the similarities.
>
>
Question:  Do similarities neccessitate the one being based on the other? And
does the fact that certain similarities exist allow us to assume that other,
unmentioned similarities exist as well?  Can we truly extrapolate anything with
any degree of certitude that would disallow the borrowing from other traditions
(I dislike the term Civilizations) as well?  Are their any citations wich deny
other influnces?

PB

"Deserves it!  I daresay he does.  Many that live deserve death.  And some that
die deserve life.  Can you give it to them?  Then do not be too eager to deal
out death in judgement.  For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT

######

From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:46:40 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
Martinez) wrote:

>>I remember hearing somewhere that a cast sword is not as strong as a forged
>>sword.  I do know, however, that if you actually want to buy a sword, a cast
>>blade is much less expensive (and considered to be of lower quality) than a
>>forged blade.  But those are modern blades, and I'm not quite sure how
>>relevant they are to all of this.
>
>Pattern-welded and layered steel swords are stronger than cast blades, but the 
>content of the cast weapons also determine strength to a certain degree (iron 

You could forge a cast blade.  If it's cast, it's already shaped
properly (unlike a pattern-welded blade), but heating it up and
hammering on it for a while might make it stronger and less likely to
need to be bent back after you hit someone with it.  It's called
'strain-hardening'.  Hammering on it _without_ heating it would work
even better.

>I wasn't suggesting they had melted the blade down and cast it in a mold.  
>They should have been able to heat it enough that they could imprint the 
>designs on the blade without destroying its basic composition.  But I was also 
>under the impression that people thought Narsil might have been a 
>pattern-welded blade.

Isn't pattern-welding a fairly crude process?  Narsil was made in a
period when smithing was very advanced.  Telchar didn't make crude
swords.

>I think ransoming captured knights would have become a more highly developed 
>art had the longbow not interrupted the practice with actually KILLING the 
>enemy.

You'd think the fact that the knights were armed with swords would
have achieved that, but I guess a sword just isn't very lethal against
an armored opponent.

######

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"Robert B. Marks" wrote:

> [snip]
> There is a novel by Stephen Grundy titled "Rhinegold" which has a magical
> sword forged.  The magic is put into the sword by the use of logs carved
> with runes which are burned under the blade as it is forged.

A novel dedicated in part to Tolkien. I really enjoyed Grundy's forging scenes,
and the reforging of 'wyrm mottled' Gram, another star-iron blade, quenching it
in Sigifrith's (and mostly Grani's) blood. At the original forging that you
mention,  Loki himself was part of the rune-fire, and a further device of magic
appears in the seed stone of Woden to bind the sword to the 'soul of his
children'.

A certain 'Gand-Alf' appears (among others) to judge the smith Ragin.
[Well I needed that to keep some Tolkien in -- and as I'm fairly off topic here
with regards to Anduril, I'll join you in the ducking ...]

> Robert Marks, ducking as a couple of magical swords get tossed his way...

 'He's not Weland.'
'There was only one Weland. But he'll do.'
SGrundy

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <83cus9$3o4_008@news.uswest.net>
References: <83808q$1lo_008@news.uswest.net> <19991216220808.27191.00000452@ngol05.aol.com>
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In article <19991216220808.27191.00000452@ngol05.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote:
>In article <83808q$1lo_008@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) writes:
>
>>.  The other parallels are clear, and the fact 
>>that Tolkien said there were many similarities nips in the bud all attempts
>>to distract us away from the similarities.
>>
>>
>Question:  Do similarities neccessitate the one being based on the other? And
>does the fact that certain similarities exist allow us to assume that other,
>unmentioned similarities exist as well?  Can we truly extrapolate anything with
>any degree of certitude that would disallow the borrowing from other traditions
>(I dislike the term Civilizations) as well?  Are their any citations wich deny
>other influnces?

I don't think your question bears directly on my point, as I was trying to 
sidestep what I felt was an impending semantic argument (which things I 
detest).

If I were to concede something to what you say here, I feel certain someone 
would try to bring that back to bear on the original issue.  If I try to argue 
with what you say here, I'll be criticized for being inflexible and doubtless 
falsely accused once again of insisting that mine is the only valid 
interpretation.

I will, therefore, not answer you, but at least you have some reason for why I 
choose not to.


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
   \\//                 Looking for Web-based discussion forums?
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######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
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In article <3859f887.36159570@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:46:40 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
>Martinez) wrote:
>
>>Pattern-welded and layered steel swords are stronger than cast blades, but
>>the content of the cast weapons also determine strength to a certain degree
>>(iron 
>
>You could forge a cast blade.  If it's cast, it's already shaped
>properly (unlike a pattern-welded blade), but heating it up and
>hammering on it for a while might make it stronger and less likely to
>need to be bent back after you hit someone with it.  It's called
>'strain-hardening'.  Hammering on it _without_ heating it would work
>even better.

I'm vaguely familiar with the concept, now you point it out.  But I don't know 
how much strength that would add (and we're sort of getting away from the 
topic anyway -- are speculations about Narsil's reforging now exhausted?).

>>I wasn't suggesting they had melted the blade down and cast it in a mold.  
>>They should have been able to heat it enough that they could imprint the 
>>designs on the blade without destroying its basic composition.  But I was
>>also under the impression that people thought Narsil might have been a 
>>pattern-welded blade.
>
>Isn't pattern-welding a fairly crude process?  Narsil was made in a
>period when smithing was very advanced.  Telchar didn't make crude
>swords.

I would consider pattern-welding to be fairly advanced, if only because it 
requires a lot of work and is usually said to require expert skill.  But I 
don't know enough about smithing to know if that's true.

>>I think ransoming captured knights would have become a more highly developed 
>>art had the longbow not interrupted the practice with actually KILLING the 
>>enemy.
>
>You'd think the fact that the knights were armed with swords would
>have achieved that, but I guess a sword just isn't very lethal against
>an armored opponent.

The only battles I can think of off the top of my head where knights were 
slaughtered en masse usually involved lots of archers or lots of knights lying 
on the ground as their enemies trampelled them.


-- 
  \\  //   Science Fiction and Fantasy           info@xenite.org
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######

From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Message-ID: <dsalo-ya02408000R1712991508390001@news.terracom.net>
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   Another similarity between Gondor and Egypt: by the end of the Third Age
civilization in Gondor had been around for over 4000 years (4112, to be
precise); Egyptian civilization had also lasted more than 4000 years ---

   By the year 1000.

                                                            DS

######

From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
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References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net> <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net> <839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net> <38598b23.0@flint.sentex.net>
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In article <38598b23.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks"
<Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:

> I remember once hearing that the job of the infantryman in the latter Middle
> Ages was to "run away" once the battle started, so that the knights could
> fight one another.  While that's a bit simplified, it actually isn't too far
> from the truth; there was a point where the knight began to actually take
> over the army.  The longbow pretty much put a stop to that, though.
> 
> I guess the greatest extreme of being the "unknowns" in the Medieval army
> would have been the bowmen, who didn't even get listed on the casualty rolls
> (you know you're in trouble when even the catapults get better press than
> you do...).

   I have recently read that excavation and analysis of remains on a late
medieval battlefield (Towton, 1461) has shown that most fatalities were the
result of severe trauma to the head, namely being whacked over the head
with a polearm, causing ugly skull fractures.  This means that yes, the
infantry did fight (I've also read that by this time the primary job of a
horse was to get you to the battlefield; once there, you got off and waded
in; there wasn't much opportunity for real cavalry actions) and they did
produce a great number of casualties.  The literary _ideal_ of the late
medieval romance was the cavalryman armed with lance and sword; but the
reality of fighting may have been quite different.
    
                                                  David Salo

######

From: martins@tiger.cs.yorku.ca (Claude Martins)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Date: 17 Dec 1999 22:34:35 GMT
Organization: York University, North York
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In article <dsalo-ya02408000R1712991547260001@news.terracom.net>,
David Salo <dsalo@usa.net> wrote:
>In article <38598b23.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks"
><Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com> wrote:
>
>> I remember once hearing that the job of the infantryman in the latter Middle
>> Ages was to "run away" once the battle started, so that the knights could
>> fight one another.  While that's a bit simplified, it actually isn't too far
>> from the truth; there was a point where the knight began to actually take
>> over the army.  The longbow pretty much put a stop to that, though.
>> 
>> I guess the greatest extreme of being the "unknowns" in the Medieval army
>> would have been the bowmen, who didn't even get listed on the casualty rolls
>> (you know you're in trouble when even the catapults get better press than
>> you do...).
>
>   I have recently read that excavation and analysis of remains on a late
>medieval battlefield (Towton, 1461) has shown that most fatalities were the
>result of severe trauma to the head, namely being whacked over the head
>with a polearm, causing ugly skull fractures.  This means that yes, the
>infantry did fight (I've also read that by this time the primary job of a
>horse was to get you to the battlefield; once there, you got off and waded
>in; there wasn't much opportunity for real cavalry actions) and they did
>produce a great number of casualties.  The literary _ideal_ of the late
>medieval romance was the cavalryman armed with lance and sword; but the
>reality of fighting may have been quite different.
>    
>                                                  David Salo

You can find more information on the work done in excavating the
Towton site, as well as reconstructing the skeletal remains, at:

<http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depart/report97/towton.htm>

There was a UK Channel 4 programme on this.  Details at:

<http://194.129.77.60/listings/summary.cfm?program_id=252589>

- Claude.


-- 
-- 
Claude Martins / Timberwolf / ICQ: 5304950 / York U, Toronto, ON, CA
martins@cs.yorku.ca / The Wolf Lair http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~martins/
"You made a woman meow?"

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez)
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy
Message-ID: <83edtt$174_004@news.uswest.net>
References: <83808q$1lo_008@news.uswest.net> <19991215113944.18489.00001485@ng-fv1.aol.com> <dsalo-ya02408000R1712991508390001@news.terracom.net>
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In article <dsalo-ya02408000R1712991508390001@news.terracom.net>, dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote:
>   Another similarity between Gondor and Egypt: by the end of the Third Age
>civilization in Gondor had been around for over 4000 years (4112, to be
>precise); Egyptian civilization had also lasted more than 4000 years ---
>
>   By the year 1000.

Oh, well, there you have it.


-- 
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######

From: "Robert B. Marks" <Delric@Angelfire.*SPAMBLOCKER.HERE*.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <82m2u7$3bo_004@news.uswest.net> <3937-384F3373-53@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <82ngp4$178_008@news.usenetserver.com> <3855a3b2.0@flint.sentex.net> <834eke$2ts_010@news.uswest.net> <385717e9.0@flint.sentex.net> <837vsf$1lo_006@news.uswest.net> <38583fcc.0@flint.sentex.net> <839gis$16s_020@news.uswest.net> <38598b23.0@flint.sentex.net> <83c4m0$1ic_008@news.uswest.net> <3859f887.36159570@news.pc-intouch.com> <83cv3h$3o4_010@news.uswest.net>
Subject: Re: Weaponry and medievalism (was: Re: Swords)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:58:31 -0500
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Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
news:83cv3h$3o4_010@news.uswest.net...
> In article <3859f887.36159570@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com
(Mark Wells) wrote:
> >On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 01:46:40 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael
> >Martinez) wrote:
> >
> >>Pattern-welded and layered steel swords are stronger than cast blades,
but
> >>the content of the cast weapons also determine strength to a certain
degree
> >>(iron
> >
> >You could forge a cast blade.  If it's cast, it's already shaped
> >properly (unlike a pattern-welded blade), but heating it up and
> >hammering on it for a while might make it stronger and less likely to
> >need to be bent back after you hit someone with it.  It's called
> >'strain-hardening'.  Hammering on it _without_ heating it would work
> >even better.
>
> I'm vaguely familiar with the concept, now you point it out.  But I don't
know
> how much strength that would add (and we're sort of getting away from the
> topic anyway -- are speculations about Narsil's reforging now exhausted?).

I get the funny feeling they might be...unless somebody wants to go into the
rediculous (computer controlled reforging of Narsil).

> >Isn't pattern-welding a fairly crude process?  Narsil was made in a
> >period when smithing was very advanced.  Telchar didn't make crude
> >swords.
>
> I would consider pattern-welding to be fairly advanced, if only because it
> requires a lot of work and is usually said to require expert skill.  But I
> don't know enough about smithing to know if that's true.

Everything I've read about it suggests that it is an incredibly advanced
form of sword-making.  However, a sword made in a simpler fashion seems to
have been stronger.

> >You'd think the fact that the knights were armed with swords would
> >have achieved that, but I guess a sword just isn't very lethal against
> >an armored opponent.

Oh, it is.  But not when one is trying just to knock the opponent off his
horse for ransoming.

> The only battles I can think of off the top of my head where knights were
> slaughtered en masse usually involved lots of archers or lots of knights
lying
> on the ground as their enemies trampelled them.

I think most of Charlemagne's battles involved a great deal of death of both
the knights and infantry.  But this was while the knight was a weapon rather
than a social class, for all intents and purposes.  Towards the end, it is
possible that battlefields became mass jousting fields (but right now that
is speculation on my part).

Robert Marks

--
The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone,
And I am but a lonely wanderer, / With time my only home.
                                                     -- From Magus Draconum