From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 193-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 47 Date: 4 Dec 1999 11:48:27 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944336909 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 19:48:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 19:48:29 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:25:17 GMT, David Salo wrote: > > I'm not following this argument very well, but I'll do my best: That's understandable. We've been sidetracked into irrelevancies. > I don't see the difference between "change" and "time"; time, considered >in the abstract, _is_ change; chronological time is a mode of measuring >change via the change in one particular system (such as a clock). I have to agree with that. > Let's assume that change is slowed, on an overall basis, in Lothlorien. >That would mean indeed that a clock taken into Lothlorien would slow. You >might not notice it, if your perceptions were slowed as well. However, the Right. A region of slow time is only noticeable on the boundary, when you can compare it to the outside world. If there were a literal slowing of time going on in Lothlorien, the Elves wouldn't notice, because their brains would be slowed down also. They'd also have some problems when the Orcs raided them. > Clearly the seasons pass in Lorien. Are they just drastically slowed >seasons? Not possible, for then Legolas could not tell what season it >might be in Lorien; for all he knew, it could be spring or summer or fall. >Yet he knew that it was winter. "'Lothlorien!' cried Legolas. 'Lothlorien! >We have come to the eaves of the Golden Wood. Alas that it is winter!'" >And indeed the leaves are golden. The day was the 47th of Hrive, the >Winter season of the Elves. The cycle of seasons must operate in Lorien >just as it does in the outside world. Well, I'm not sure we can conclude that based on one data point. It could easily just happen to be winter in Lothlorien on the 47th (or, in this case, the 3Bth) of Hrive of that particular year. Hrive is a pretty big target, in terms of the chance of hitting it by accident. (Actually, since the only Elvish calendar described in the Appendices is the calendar of Imladris, they might not even have Hrive in Lothlorien. But they have some kind of winter season.) Seasons are one area in which I think Lothlorien could differ from the outside world even without a literal difference in the flow of time. The autumn season, in particular, is all about *fading*. In Lothlorien the rate of fading of any kind is much slower than on the outside. So I'd expect them to have, if nothing else, a much milder fall and winter than outside, and possibly a shorter fall and winter. ###### Message-ID: <38497521.AD8DD006@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 51 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:10:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944338488 24.128.99.214 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:14:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:14:48 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: > Clearly the seasons pass in Lorien. Are they just drastically slowed > seasons? Not possible, for then Legolas could not tell what season it > might be in Lorien; for all he knew, it could be spring or summer or fall. > Yet he knew that it was winter. "'Lothlorien!' cried Legolas. 'Lothlorien! > We have come to the eaves of the Golden Wood. Alas that it is winter!'" > And indeed the leaves are golden. The day was the 47th of Hrive, the > Winter season of the Elves. The cycle of seasons must operate in Lorien > just as it does in the outside world. > > What then? I think that what is meant is that things in Lorien, though > they continue their natural changes of thought, growth, and motion, are not > susceptible to decay; this would be most obvious in organic things, but > perhaps could also be seen in such things as metal which would not rust. > They are "preserved" -- like preserved foods; time passes for them the same > as for everyone else, but they don't show the effects, at least not as > quickly. No wonder Tolkien used the term "embalmed". Lorien is > effectively pickled. > > Which leads of course to the "Drinking Song of the Pickled Elves" > > Lift up your mug in the hall, dear, > Drink up your fill of wine! > Orophin, Rumil and Haldir, > Are pickled and soaked in brine -- > > Life rolls on, but here nothing changes > Decay and rot all left behind; > For living with mortals deranges > Our complacent elf state of mind -- > > So drink up with whiskey and liquor, > Forget about rust, dust and mold; > The glue in our veins will get thicker, > And never more shall we grow old! > > Farewell to mortality, stranger, > To the dimming and wandering star, > For elves all are quite out of danger, > When pickled and put in a jar! I agree with the above [and enjoyed the song] Lothlorien is bathed in Galadriel's light -- not Vása, the heart of fire, which both sustains and consumes. A nice analysis David. -- Cian ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Message-ID: References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 64 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:25:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944328317 208.170.95.5 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:25:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:25:17 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.be.easynet.net!newsfeed.online.be!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo I'm not following this argument very well, but I'll do my best: I don't see the difference between "change" and "time"; time, considered in the abstract, _is_ change; chronological time is a mode of measuring change via the change in one particular system (such as a clock). Let's assume that change is slowed, on an overall basis, in Lothlorien. That would mean indeed that a clock taken into Lothlorien would slow. You might not notice it, if your perceptions were slowed as well. However, the rest of the world outside Lothlorien continues on its way; so if you compared it to another clock when you emerged, the times would be different. Moreover, things like the passage of sun and moon, by which time is often measured, would continue on their courses. From the point of view of the slowed perceptions in Lothlorien, they'd be perceived to zip by at many times normal speed. But I don't think that's what's going on in Lothlorien at all. Legolas tells us that "'in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, ad then the boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the bark of the trees is smooth and grey. So still our songs in Mirkwood say. My heart would be glad if I were beneath the eaves of that wood, and it were springtime!'" to which Aragorn replied "My heart will be glad, even in the winter." Clearly the seasons pass in Lorien. Are they just drastically slowed seasons? Not possible, for then Legolas could not tell what season it might be in Lorien; for all he knew, it could be spring or summer or fall. Yet he knew that it was winter. "'Lothlorien!' cried Legolas. 'Lothlorien! We have come to the eaves of the Golden Wood. Alas that it is winter!'" And indeed the leaves are golden. The day was the 47th of Hrive, the Winter season of the Elves. The cycle of seasons must operate in Lorien just as it does in the outside world. What then? I think that what is meant is that things in Lorien, though they continue their natural changes of thought, growth, and motion, are not susceptible to decay; this would be most obvious in organic things, but perhaps could also be seen in such things as metal which would not rust. They are "preserved" -- like preserved foods; time passes for them the same as for everyone else, but they don't show the effects, at least not as quickly. No wonder Tolkien used the term "embalmed". Lorien is effectively pickled. Which leads of course to the "Drinking Song of the Pickled Elves" Lift up your mug in the hall, dear, Drink up your fill of wine! Orophin, Rumil and Haldir, Are pickled and soaked in brine -- Life rolls on, but here nothing changes Decay and rot all left behind; For living with mortals deranges Our complacent elf state of mind -- So drink up with whiskey and liquor, Forget about rust, dust and mold; The glue in our veins will get thicker, And never more shall we grow old! Farewell to mortality, stranger, To the dimming and wandering star, For elves all are quite out of danger, When pickled and put in a jar! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82bklh$168_030@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:57:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.230 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944330020 207.224.149.230 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:53:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:53:40 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > > What then? I think that what is meant is that things in Lorien, though >they continue their natural changes of thought, growth, and motion, are not >susceptible to decay; this would be most obvious in organic things, but >perhaps could also be seen in such things as metal which would not rust. >They are "preserved" -- like preserved foods; time passes for them the same >as for everyone else, but they don't show the effects, at least not as >quickly. No wonder Tolkien used the term "embalmed". Lorien is >effectively pickled. Pickled Elf Drinking songs aside, no one notices any moon in Lorien. Legolas' songs recall an ancient Lorien. How ancient? We don't know. The last communication between Lorien and Legolas' people that we can attest through textual evidence would be the beginning of the Third Age, when the armies of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men returned home. Tolkien didn't say the Elves wished to stop things from growing. They wanted to preserve the beuaty of Middle-earth, and that might be accomplished in more than one way, but they also wanted to prevent or delay their inevitable fading. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Message-ID: References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:07:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944338030 208.170.95.5 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:07:10 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:07:10 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > Seasons are one area in which I think Lothlorien could differ from the > outside world even without a literal difference in the flow of time. The > autumn season, in particular, is all about *fading*. In Lothlorien the > rate of fading of any kind is much slower than on the outside. So I'd > expect them to have, if nothing else, a much milder fall and winter than > outside, and possibly a shorter fall and winter. In fact they _do_ have a milder winter. "All the while that they [the company] dwelt there the sun shone clear, save for a gentler rain that fell at times, and passed away leaving all things fresh and clean. The air ws cool and soft, as if it were early spring, yet they felt about them the deep and thoughtful quiet of winter." Here's another data-point: when Aragorn came to Lothlorien in TA 2980, it was spring, because "he came walking towards [Arwen] under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold" (I believe it's the trees that are laden, not Aragorn!); Aragorn dwelt with Arwen "For a season"; and then they were troth-plight on the evening of Midsummer (i.e. about 32 Laire). David Salo ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Dec 1999 03:36:46 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991204223646.20505.00000090@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.kpnbelgium.be!news.worldonline.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: David Salo writes >> I don't see the difference between "change" and "time"; time, considered >>in the abstract, _is_ change; chronological time is a mode of measuring >>change via the change in one particular system (such as a clock). > > I respectfully disagree. I see a difference between "change" and "time." Time is the passage of entities through a particular dimension, (we refer to it as the fourth.) Change is the _difference_ between an object when observed at one time mark compared to another time mark. Example: Acceleration equals change in direction or speed divided by change in time. So, using change in the manner of a physicist, we can assume that any change in the rate of decay is very much not the function of a change in the speed of the clock as the steady movement of time is the constants against which that change is measured. I think I remember there being a physicist on this ng, though I appologize for not remembering who. If I could get some confirmation or correction from you I'd greatly appreciate it. Therefore, it would be my understanding that Lorien, the rings or both, affected the rate at which things aged, not the time in which that aging occured. Or to put it another way, when the Fellowship left Lorien, it did not get slingshotted back up to the same time as the outside world, but mearly went again into a world were times effects are more readily apparent because natural decay and change are much swifter. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 90 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 05:25:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944371557 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:25:57 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:25:57 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth dsalo@usa.net (David Salo): > I don't see the difference between "change" and "time"; time, > considered in the abstract, _is_ change; chronological time is a > mode of measuring change via the change in one particular system > (such as a clock). Hmm. I said earlier that I wasn't eager to get into the physics of this situation, but it seems relevant here. Forgive me in advance for bringing Einstein's relativity into this, but that's the way I think about such things. I do in fact believe that reasonably fundamental and straightforward aspects of the way our world works should be carried over into Middle-earth; relativity is certainly one of those. :) In relativity, time is _not_ in fact defined by the changes in some system. It is a dimension in its own right in addition to the three that we are familliar with (some refer to it as the fourth, I call it the zeroth, but really, all that's important is that it's perpendicular to all three others in a rather peculiar way... I won't get into details). Passing through time, then, is simply measured by one's "coordinate" on the "line" of time. Now, it's true that our measurements of time depend on changes in systems, but saying that time _is_ change would lead us deep into philosophy and away from the essence of the question. (Incidentally, in quantum mechanics we can easily talk about systems which are in "stationary states" in time: their phase changes with time, but physical measurements of the system at different times will always be the same.) We can sidestep the issue, happily, by talking about the Rings slowing _decay_; when Tolkien says that the Rings "slow change", we can guess that he means that they slow broad, global changes (as in language, rusting, etc.) rather than slowing individual processes like swinging pendulums or heartbeats. Someone has (elsewhere in this thread) suggested that the Rings acted to slow the increase of entropy (disorder); I am tentatively agreeing with this notion, though it requires more thought. > Moreover, things like the passage of sun and moon, by which time is > often measured, would continue on their courses. From the point of > view of the slowed perceptions in Lothlorien, they'd be perceived to > zip by at many times normal speed. I brought up a very similar point a few months ago in a similar thread. The sun, at least, was seen to rise and set in Lorien, but it certainly was not _in_ Lorien: it couldn't have been affected by a Slo-Time envelope(TM) created by Galadriel's Ring. As you point out, if time itself were slowed in Lorien, then each day-night cycle would take considerably less than 24 hours. Sam certainly comments on losing track of the Moon while in Lorien, but neither he nor anyone else suggests that each day was only four hours long (or whatever). Peoples' bodies just couldn't deal with that kind of change in rhythm, and it would certainly be noticed and commented on at the time! In other words, seasons are the least of our worried if time itself passes differently in Lorien (though they do seem to provide another good example; thanks for the idea!). The company lost track of the number of days that passed (probably because the days just didn't feel as different as they usually did, somehow); they certainly didn't just have more of them! On another note, I don't think that the Elves would really _want_ time to be literally slowed. As I understand it, they wanted to live in Middle-earth without having to deal with everything around them changing and decaying so fast. If both they and the decay of their homes were slowed by the same factor, they wouldn't notice any difference at all! One year of perceived time would still correspond to one year of perceived decay, so they'd gain nothing. Even worse, in that same year, the world _outside_ their homes would age a great deal more. (Two years? Five years? Fifty years? Who knows what the factor would be...) Any contact with that outside world would make them feel even worse, as they saw it changing and decaying _much_ faster. I find it much more reasonable to suppose that the Elves would make Rings that would slow change and decay in the Elves homes as seen by the Elves themselves. That is, in one year of perceived time, they would witness less than a year's worth of the effects of decay (Half a year's worth? A month's worth? A day's worth? Once again, who knows...) While it would be possible to suppose that their time was literally slowed but that the rate of decay was slowed even more, that seems unnecessarily complicated; also, it would run into the same problem of making the outside world appear to decay even faster as mentioned above. Humph. I wasn't planning on posting anything so long, but someone asked for a physicist to comment on this thread... and it's a very interesting topic, too. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 05:44:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.75 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944372448 207.224.147.75 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:40:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:40:48 CST Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: [snip] >Humph. I wasn't planning on posting anything so long, but someone >asked for a physicist to comment on this thread... and it's a very >interesting topic, too. THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:43:11 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <82em9f$5a5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.174.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Dec 05 21:43:11 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x31.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.174.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!u-2.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard > Jensen) wrote: > > [snip] > > >Humph. I wasn't planning on posting anything so long, but someone > >asked for a physicist to comment on this thread... and it's a very > >interesting topic, too. > > THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and > Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. Jensen's post had a sense of humour. Yours does not. Jensen also raised several interesting points that are valid regardless of whether Einstein's theories are invoked. Of course, if Einstein's theories do not interest you, no-one if forcing you to participate in the discussion. -- John Whelan > -- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:43:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <82ema3$5a8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.174.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Dec 05 21:43:31 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x31.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.174.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!u-2.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard > Jensen) wrote: > > [snip] > > >Humph. I wasn't planning on posting anything so long, but someone > >asked for a physicist to comment on this thread... and it's a very > >interesting topic, too. > > THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and > Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. Jensen's post had a sense of humour. Yours does not. Jensen also raised several interesting points that are valid regardless of whether Einstein's theories are invoked. Of course, if Einstein's theories do not interest you, no-one if forcing you to participate in the discussion. -- John Whelan > -- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 171-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 11 Date: 5 Dec 1999 21:33:59 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944458443 198.172.26.10 (Mon, 06 Dec 1999 05:34:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 05:34:03 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 05:44:14 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>Humph. I wasn't planning on posting anything so long, but someone >>asked for a physicist to comment on this thread... and it's a very >>interesting topic, too. > >THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and >Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. Tolkien said Middle-earth is our own world, so I'd say relativity *does* apply, seeing as it's been demonstrated to work in our own world. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82evr5$1as_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> <82em9f$5a5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 00:26:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.205 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944439765 209.181.118.205 (Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:22:45 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:22:45 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <82em9f$5a5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, jbwhelan@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net>, > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >> THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and >> Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. > >Jensen's post had a sense of humour. Humor. That's a concept you overlooked in the paradox post, isn't. I guess you've just decided to be a complete asshole today. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82fl49$1hs_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:29:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.93 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944461560 209.181.118.93 (Mon, 06 Dec 1999 00:26:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 00:26:00 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 05:44:14 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>Humph. I wasn't planning on posting anything so long, but someone >>>asked for a physicist to comment on this thread... and it's a very >>>interesting topic, too. >> >>THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and >>Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. > >Tolkien said Middle-earth is our own world, so I'd say relativity *does* >apply, seeing as it's been demonstrated to work in our own world. The story of Cinderella is set in our own world, and so are the stories of Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, and the Princess and the Pea. Relativity doesn't figure in any of them. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <384C3E4A.7C285BDB@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:52:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944521064 24.128.99.214 (Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:57:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:57:44 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote: > [snip] On another note, I don't think that the Elves would really _want_ > time > to be literally slowed. One year of perceived time would still > correspond to one year of perceived decay, so they'd gain nothing. > Any contact with that outside world would make them feel even > worse, as they saw it changing and decaying _much_ faster. Tolkien maybe thought along those lines too: Notice of those draft time-schemes [in ToI] that offer an actual different rate of time -- in each, when a person exits from Lothlorien he is astonished because _a lot less_ outside time has actually passed, not more. To put it another way, in those time schemes that 'play' with actual time differences, the company 'saves' on exterior days -- Tolkien seems not to have even considered the opposite in these drafts. Sam still thinks this is the case in the published text, but the Tale of Years knows better. The company 'felt' like they were on a shorter 'vacation' than they really were. A Pickled Lorien works humorously enough for me. My opinion on Pickles as food -- blech. -- Cian ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> <82fl49$1hs_010@news.uswest.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 14 Date: 6 Dec 1999 18:29:02 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944533744 198.172.26.10 (Tue, 07 Dec 1999 02:29:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 02:29:04 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.kpnbelgium.be!news.worldonline.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:29:29 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>Tolkien said Middle-earth is our own world, so I'd say relativity *does* >>apply, seeing as it's been demonstrated to work in our own world. > >The story of Cinderella is set in our own world, and so are the stories of >Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, and the Princess and the Pea. Relativity doesn't >figure in any of them. Nobody in any of those stories built a device that altered time. Most of the other manifestations of relativity are pretty miniscule. I wouldn't expect Cinderella to notice the slight contraction in the length of everything around her as she ran out of the ball at midnight. ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:27:01 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <82huq1$fia$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> <82em9f$5a5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <82evr5$1as_016@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.161.32 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Dec 07 03:27:01 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x21.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.161.32 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <82evr5$1as_016@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article <82em9f$5a5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, jbwhelan@my-deja.com wrote: > >In article <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net>, > > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > >> THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a work of FANTASY, not SCIENCE FICTION, and > >> Einstein's relativity really doesn't apply. > > > >Jensen's post had a sense of humour. > > Humor. That's a concept you overlooked in the paradox post, isn't. I guess > you've just decided to be a complete asshole today. I guess I must have missed the humor. All right then: I apologize for picking on your "paradox post". -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82hv46$2ks_006@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> <82fl49$1hs_010@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:32:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.161.46.234 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944537329 216.161.46.234 (Mon, 06 Dec 1999 21:28:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 21:28:49 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:29:29 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>Tolkien said Middle-earth is our own world, so I'd say relativity *does* >>>apply, seeing as it's been demonstrated to work in our own world. >> >>The story of Cinderella is set in our own world, and so are the stories of >>Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, and the Princess and the Pea. Relativity doesn't >>figure in any of them. > >Nobody in any of those stories built a device that altered time. Nor did anyone mess with mass and velocity in Middle-earth. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien in a pickle References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> <82cu3e$1b4_002@news.uswest.net> <82fl49$1hs_010@news.uswest.net> <82hv46$2ks_006@news.uswest.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 21 Date: 7 Dec 1999 13:15:28 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944601333 198.172.26.10 (Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:15:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:15:33 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:32:22 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >>On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 06:29:29 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >> >>>>Tolkien said Middle-earth is our own world, so I'd say relativity *does* >>>>apply, seeing as it's been demonstrated to work in our own world. >>> >>>The story of Cinderella is set in our own world, and so are the stories of >>>Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, and the Princess and the Pea. Relativity doesn't >>>figure in any of them. >> >>Nobody in any of those stories built a device that altered time. >Nor did anyone mess with mass and velocity in Middle-earth. That's not true, and if it were true it would still be irrelevant. I said relativity applies to Middle-earth, because it's our own world. You said that Cinderella is set in our own world, and it doesn't involve relativity. I said that relativity isn't a factor in Cinderella, because nobody's trying to alter time. Do you dispute that?