From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Uruks Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 60 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:23:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944169808 208.170.95.26 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:23:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:23:28 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo The word "uruk", though distantly related to Quenya and Sindarin words for "orc", does not refer to all orcs indiscriminately; see Appendix F, p. 409 "Related, no doubt, was the word _uruk_ of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." And The War of the Jewels, p. 390: "The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech... referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga." Uses of the term: FR 338: "There are Orcs, very many of them," [Gandalf] said. "And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor." TT 49: [Ugluk] "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners." (The Isengarders are described as "a grim dark band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs...") TT 145: [Orcs at Helm's Deep] "Come down! Come down!" they cried. "If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come. Bring out your skulking king!" "The king stays or comes at his own will," said Aragorn. "Then what are you doing here?" they answered. "Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai." "I looked out to see the dawn," said Aragorn. "What of the dawn?" they jeered. "We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?" TT 347: [Gorbag]: "And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks." RK 97: "No hours so dark had Pippin known, not even in the clutches of the Uruk-hai." RK 202: [soldier-Orc in Mordor]: "First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together." RK 209: A troop of heavy armed _uruks_ from Barad-du^r charged into the Durthang line and threw them into confusion. UT 357: [Battles of the Fords of Isen]: "Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles... The garrison of the east bank, surprised by the sudden assault of the massed Uruks, was swept away... they were drive from the Fords along the line of the Isen with the Uruks in pursuit." UT 358: "Elfhelm thus heard and saw nothing of the fighting between the retreating garrison and the Uruks south of the Fords." UT 359: "Later in the morning most of Theodred's Riders that had been driven south down the river by a battalion of black Uruks came back battle-worn but in good order... The Uruks had resisted any attempt to burst eastwards, and were driving them towards the now hostile country of the Dunlendish 'west-march'.... They thought that the Uruks had gone back to reinforce their hold on the Fords, and expected there to meet in battle again, and they wondered much to find the Rohirrim in command. It was not until later that they discoverd whither the Uruks had gone. UT 361: "At length, however, when both the forts were heavily engaged, a troop of Uruks forced the passage between them and began to cross the Fords." There is no difference I can see between "Uruks" and "Uruk-hai". According to the Index to Unfinished Tales: Uruks: Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength. David Salo ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Uruks References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 29 Date: 2 Dec 1999 19:09:15 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944190558 198.172.26.10 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 03:09:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 03:09:18 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.idt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:23:28 GMT, David Salo wrote: > The word "uruk", though distantly related to Quenya and Sindarin words It's not that distant. 'Urko' and 'orch' are both closer to 'uruk' than to each other, both phonetically and historically. >for "orc", does not refer to all orcs indiscriminately; see Appendix F, p. >409 "Related, no doubt, was the word _uruk_ of the Black Speech, though >this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time >issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially OK, I forgot about this. >by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." And The War of the Jewels, p. 390: "The This seems to suggest that the use of 'uruk' to refer only to the Uruk-Hai was most prevalent among the Orcs themselves, but I can see how it would come to be common usage among outsiders. > There is no difference I can see between "Uruks" and "Uruk-hai". >According to the Index to Unfinished Tales: Uruks: Anglicized form of >Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength. I'm sure you're aware of the etymology of 'uruk', but it's quite plausible that it became more restricted in scope over time (as the Uruk-Hai became increasingly proud of their Uruk-Hai-ness, maybe). AFAICT there were no Uruk-Hai in the First Age, so the word might have referred to Orcs in general at some point. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Uruks Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <826va1$1eg_048@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:28:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.178 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944177081 207.224.148.178 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:24:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:24:41 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > There is no difference I can see between "Uruks" and "Uruk-hai". >According to the Index to Unfinished Tales: Uruks: Anglicized form of >Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength. David, you leave me speechless. I honestly don't know what to say. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Uruks References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 12 Date: 3 Dec 1999 17:42:23 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944271746 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:42:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:42:26 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 19:37:37 GMT, David Salo wrote: > What do you mean by "distant"? I meant "separated by a very long period OK, I meant "look alike, are pronounced alike, and mean exactly the same thing". Yes, the Black Speech evolved pretty much in isolation from Quenya and Sindarin. Actually, if the Black Speech was invented by Sauron in an attempt to give the Orcs a common language, it didn't 'evolve' much at all. It was just created. What little evolution it went through was limited to being incorporated into the Orkish tribal dialects and falling into disuse. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Uruks Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 18 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 19:37:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944249857 208.170.95.90 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:37:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 13:37:37 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:23:28 GMT, David Salo wrote: > > The word "uruk", though distantly related to Quenya and Sindarin words > > It's not that distant. 'Urko' and 'orch' are both closer to 'uruk' than > to each other, both phonetically and historically. What do you mean by "distant"? I meant "separated by a very long period of separate evolution." I'd say that the English word "salt" and the Gothic word "salt" are "distantly related", even though they look alike, are pronounced alike, and mean exactly the same thing! At least English and Gothic belong to the same language family; Orkish/Black Speech and Elvish don't, and "uruk" (though a borrowing) isn't directly borrowed from either Quenya or Sindarin. That's what I meant. DS