Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Elessar in the Fourth Age X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 35 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 03:45:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944019937 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:45:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:45:37 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail So here's a question that's been on my mind for quite some time. In _Unfinished Tales_, in "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", we read that the (original) Elessar had great healing power: "the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt". Moreover, whichever version of the Elessar story you believe, the Elessar that Galadriel wielded and later passed on to Aragorn was what made "the land of [her] dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth" or that made "all things [grow] fair about [her]." In other words, the Elessar had some abilities not unlike those of the Rings (I don't have any idea just _how_ similar), at least to the point that it made Lorien a popular place for Elves to live amidst the fading world. She gave it to Aragorn (one version of the story indicates that passing it on when the time came was a condition of the gift), yes, but once he was established as King, would it not have been best for the remaining Elves if he had given it back? Perhaps it could have allowed those who remained to keep Rivendell or Lorien (or the Havens, for that matter) from fading and decaying as they were otherwise doomed to do. Perhaps keeping it for his own (mortal) realm was simply a way of encouraging the remaining Elves to submit to the inevitable and be on their way? On the other hand, it is possible that the Elessar may have lost its powers at the same time the Rings did. (The wording of the end of the second version of the story _could_ be seen to contradict this: when Galadriel received Nenya, "she needed [the Elessar] (as she thought) no more".) If so, this could be an important bit of information about both how it worked _and_ how the Rings worked... if we could figure it out. I don't know of any real evidence for or against this possibility, though. Why _didn't_ Aragorn return the Elessar to the remaining Elves so that their lives would be a little more bearable? (Or did he?) YOU be the judge! :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Elessar in the Fourth Age Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:53:06 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 11 Message-ID: <13872-3844A9B2-4@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhR1HRB5xrQ+ede2AGoUlB69v6MyiQIUW8pvYl6iOHAOLsV8FwdXoKrn0PM= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail You made some interesting points, and I'll have to check my copy of UT, before making a full reply, but one thing did occur to me: I recall that Celebrimbor was mentioned somewhere in the essay on the Elessar. I don't remember exactly how he was mentioned, but IIRC, he was supposedly involved in the making of the Elessar (like I said, I'll have to check, so go easy on me if I'm wrong here). If that's the case, it seems interesting that he was involved in the making of both the Rings of Power and the Elessar. --Dave ###### From: waljm2@iname.com (Walter Minne) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Lieutenant of Barad-Dur Message-ID: <384313bf.4611899@192.168.0.1> References: <19991117123833.01221.00000286@ng-da1.aol.com> <383d262f.4867523@192.168.0.1> <81kdjb$hk3$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <383fa69f.2269786@192.168.0.1> <81uod7$3d9$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-ad-10-117.camtech.net.au X-Trace: ozemail.com.au 943920620 203.28.1.245 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:10:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:10:20 EST Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:10:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Good day all, On 29 Nov 1999 21:41:11 +0100, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de wrote: >Walter Minne wrote: > >>The Mouth was a Black Numenorean first, and they were loyal to Sauron, >>or at least evil in their own way. Why would Sauron waste power >>brainwashing an individual who was already corrupted? > >Wasting power to dominate others is what being evil is all about >in Tolkien's universe. > YMMV, but I disagree. Wasting power doesn't make dominating others evil, just dominating itself done unjustly, is evil. Being wasteful becomes a secondary effect behind that. >Also, not a lot of Sauron's power would have been neded to brainwash >somebody who was more or less a willing victim. Possibly so, but I would think Sauron would rather use the power to keep another hundred or so fractious orcs pointed in the direction of my enemies than over control the Mouth, who is likely loyal anyway out of necessity. >-- >Thomas Koenig, Thomas.Koenig@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet. >The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double >logarithmic diagram. Catch you later, Walter Minne ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Lieutenant of Barad-Dur Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Nov 1999 03:58:28 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991129225828.13515.00000009@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , "Jonas Thorell" writes: >> You have pointed out the biggest flaw in my theory. For the Mouth to >> be 3000 odd years old there would have had to be some 'special' help. > >And why not? It wouldn't have been the first time. Gollum for instance. >Sure, he was "aided" by The One but I suspect that even a percent >of The Ones power could have accomplished that. I don't think Sauron >would have been foolish enough to instill some of his powers into mortals >after he had lost the ring but before? Maybe, if he found The Mouth >particulary useful. It would certainly be in his power to do so. Gollum was a hobbit who was therefore able to physically handle the effects of the Ring better than a Man. That type of power exerted over Men apparently turns them into wraiths such as the Nazgul. Russ ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <13872-3844A9B2-4@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: The Elessar in the Fourth Age Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:38:08 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.56.102.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 944243129 212.56.102.181 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:45:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:45:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote in message <13872-3844A9B2-4@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... >You made some interesting points, and I'll have to check my copy of UT, >before making a full reply, but one thing did occur to me: I recall that >Celebrimbor was mentioned somewhere in the essay on the Elessar. I >don't remember exactly how he was mentioned, but IIRC, he was supposedly >involved in the making of the Elessar (like I said, I'll have to check, so go >easy on me if I'm wrong here). If that's the case, it seems interesting that >he was involved in the making of both the Rings of Power and the Elessar. Unfinished Tales Part Two: The Second Age The History of Galadriel and Celeborn "Therefore he [Celebrimbor] took thought, and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only)." "Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest." Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net