From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:09:02 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3842d1b4.464130@enews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 16:01:42 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.tli.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net (Conrad B. Dunkerson) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is >not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a >permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The >indestructibility of *spirits* with free wills, even by the Creator >of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in >their existence, or feigns it in a story" >Letters #211 Hmm -- how do we reconcile that with the frequent statements that the Elves are immortal within Arda, and their life lasts as long as it does? (Men, by contrast, go outside of Arda after death, so they may well be truly immortal though I don't recall a definitive text.) Surely Elves are also spirits with free wills, yet the end of Arda is their end as well. I'm not disputing your main point, that the Ainur (including Sauron) can lose their embodiments but not their spirits. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Dec 1999 16:44:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991201114444.14387.00000353@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Hmm -- how do we reconcile that with the frequent statements that the >Elves are immortal within Arda, and their life lasts as long as it does? >(Men, by contrast, go outside of Arda after death, so they may well be >truly immortal though I don't recall a definitive text.) > >Surely Elves are also spirits with free wills, yet the end of Arda is >their end as well. > >I'm not disputing your main point, that the Ainur (including Sauron) can >lose their embodiments but not their spirits. > Ainur and Elves appear to operate in somewhat simila ways. Ainur are spiritual beings who have the power to take on physical forms. Destruction of the physical form does not mean destruction of the spirit. Elves are physical and spiritual beings from the outset; however, while their physical forms may be destroyed, their spirits may not. And, under the right circumstances, their spirits may be reembodied. Men are a third option. They are physical and spitual, like Elves and their spirits are indestructible. However, upon the destruction of their physical form, their spirits leave this universe (to parts unknown but perhaps to Illuvatar) and they are not able to be reembodied like Elves. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net> References: <19991201114444.14387.00000353@ngol01.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 40 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:57:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944067243 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:54:03 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:54:03 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991201114444.14387.00000353@ngol01.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article , >brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > >>Hmm -- how do we reconcile that with the frequent statements that the >>Elves are immortal within Arda, and their life lasts as long as it does? >>(Men, by contrast, go outside of Arda after death, so they may well be >>truly immortal though I don't recall a definitive text.) >> >>Surely Elves are also spirits with free wills, yet the end of Arda is >>their end as well. Tolkien does not say the end of Arda is the end of the Elves. >Ainur and Elves appear to operate in somewhat simila ways. Ainur are spiritual >beings who have the power to take on physical forms. Destruction of the >physical form does not mean destruction of the spirit. > >Elves are physical and spiritual beings from the outset; however, while their >physical forms may be destroyed, their spirits may not. And, under the right >circumstances, their spirits may be reembodied. Ainur are self-Incarnated (if they wish to be). Elves are not. Their physical lives are long but not eternal. As you say, their spirits are indestructible and will outlast their bodies. >Men are a third option. They are physical and spitual, like Elves and their >spirits are indestructible. However, upon the destruction of their physical >form, their spirits leave this universe (to parts unknown but perhaps to >Illuvatar) and they are not able to be reembodied like Elves. With some special exceptions (Beren was re-embodied, and Tolkien intended to bring Turin back for the end of the First Age). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:47:40 GMT References: <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991201154740.15434.00000061@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >and Tolkien intended to >bring Turin back for the end of the First Age). Just out of curiousity...IIRC, the return of Turin appeared only in a fairly early draft of the Silmarillion. I know Tolkien's later revisions didn't get to that portion of the work, but are there later writings that indicate Tolkien still accepted that idea in the years after the LOTR was published? Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <824447$1bc_018@news.uswest.net> References: <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net> <19991201154740.15434.00000061@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 103 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:31:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.232 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944083717 207.224.149.232 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:28:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:28:37 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991201154740.15434.00000061@ngol04.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > > > >>and Tolkien intended to >>bring Turin back for the end of the First Age). > > >Just out of curiousity...IIRC, the return of Turin appeared only in a fairly >early draft of the Silmarillion. I know Tolkien's later revisions didn't get >to that portion of the work, but are there later writings that indicate >Tolkien still accepted that idea in the years after the LOTR was published? THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, pages 374-5: $17 The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue ne heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke. [This remarkable saying has long roots, extending far back to the prophecy at the end of the old TALE OF TURAMBAR (II.115-16), where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur) would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and Maywin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their prayers came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their soorows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar shall indeed stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil. In the SKETCH OF THE MYTHOLOGY or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the 1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought, Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus shall the children of Hurin be avenged. The development of this in the QUENTA (IV.165) tells that in the days of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor, Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. And the final passage of the QUENTA, concerning the prophecy of the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (IBID.): But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods. These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the QUENTA that belongs with the QUENTA SILMARILLION of 1937 (see V.323-4, 333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be 'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentance concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In the cursor corrections that my father made much later to this conclusion (see XI. 245-7) he changed 'Turin...coming from the halls of Mandos' to 'Turin...returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world', and against the concluding passage (including the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he placed a large X. Another reference is found in the ANNALS OF AMAN (X. 71, 76), where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' In this last appearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text, p.371); but in all the early texts (the QUENTA, IV.160; the ANNALS OF BELERIAND, IV.309, V.144; the QUENTA SILMARILLION, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon.] -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:37:57 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3845a2a4.5285316@enews.newsguy.com> References: <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net> <19991201154740.15434.00000061@ngol04.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-734.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews5 On 01 Dec 1999 20:47:40 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) posted the following: >In article <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > > > >>and Tolkien intended to >>bring Turin back for the end of the First Age). > > >Just out of curiousity...IIRC, the return of Turin appeared only in a fairly >early draft of the Silmarillion. It appeared in LT, yes. >I know Tolkien's later revisions didn't get >to that portion of the work, but are there later writings that indicate >Tolkien still accepted that idea in the years after the LOTR was published? Not for Turin appearing at the end of the First Age, but the idea that Turin was to come back at the end of the world endured for a long time. War of the Jewels, p. 247, shows changes that Tolkien made to the final section. "Turin Turambar...coming from the halls of Mandos" was changed to "Turin Turambar...returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world." Also, Tolkien added "Beren Camlost" at the side, apparently indicating that he would come back as well. In Morgoth's Ring, CT concludes that because of the statements at the end of the Valaquenta that his father had eventually decided against the Second Prophecy of Mandos. -Chris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Lines: 102 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 04:48:14 GMT References: <824447$1bc_018@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991201234814.15515.00000011@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <824447$1bc_018@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Just out of curiousity...IIRC, the return of Turin appeared only in a fairly >>early draft of the Silmarillion. I know Tolkien's later revisions didn't >get >>to that portion of the work, but are there later writings that indicate >>Tolkien still accepted that idea in the years after the LOTR was published? > >THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, pages 374-5: > > $17 The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they > had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue > ne heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman > should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return > from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World > for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon > the Black, and deal him the death-stroke. > > [This remarkable saying has long roots, extending far back to > the prophecy at the end of the old TALE OF TURAMBAR (II.115-16), > where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur) > would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and > Maywin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their > prayers > > came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy > fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into > Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens > had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, > and so were all their soorows and stains washed away, and > they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now > the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but > Turambar shall indeed stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, > and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil. > > In the SKETCH OF THE MYTHOLOGY or 'earliest Silmarillion' of > the 1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares > that when Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought, > > Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the > spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who > with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus shall the > children of Hurin be avenged. > > The development of this in the QUENTA (IV.165) tells that in the > days of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor, > > Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand > Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror > of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals > unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children > of Hurin and all Men be avenged. > > And the final passage of the QUENTA, concerning the prophecy > of the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (IBID.): > > But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin > only, and him it names among the Gods. > > These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the QUENTA > that belongs with the QUENTA SILMARILLION of 1937 (see V.323-4, > 333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be > 'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentance > concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, > and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In > the cursor corrections that my father made much later to this > conclusion (see XI. 245-7) he changed 'Turin...coming from the > halls of Mandos' to 'Turin...returning from the Doom of Men at > the ending of the world', and against the concluding passage > (including the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he > placed a large X. > > Another reference is found in the ANNALS OF AMAN (X. 71, 76), > where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that > it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the > world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle that shall be > at the end of Days.' > > In this last appearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea > the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman > of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before > his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of > the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon > the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end > of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' > is used shortly afterwards in this text, p.371); but in all > the early texts (the QUENTA, IV.160; the ANNALS OF BELERIAND, > IV.309, V.144; the QUENTA SILMARILLION, V.329) it was Earendil > who destroyed Ancalagon.] > Good God. Where do you pull all these cites from so fast!? I hope you copied from a previous message you prepared and didn't type all that out just now. Thanks. I note that the only "later" reference is in the Annals of Aman reference to the constellation. So it appears the idea was still rattling around. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825e5f$1pg_010@news.uswest.net> References: <824447$1bc_018@news.uswest.net> <19991201234814.15515.00000011@ngol05.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:29:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944126760 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:26:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:26:00 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991201234814.15515.00000011@ngol05.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >Good God. Where do you pull all these cites from so fast!? I hope you copied >from a previous message you prepared and didn't type all that out just now. Actually, I did type that one in. I started to just cite the latter part, but then I realized it wouldn't make much sense, and I didn't want to fiddle with Deja.Com, so I just typed in the whole thing. Now it's preserved for ever (assuming I can find it again if I search Deja.Com). Sometimes it is faster just to retype the stuff. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Death of Elves (Re: Sauron's death) Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 15:46:13 GMT References: <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991202104613.15736.00000027@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <823k1g$1a8_044@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Tolkien intended to >bring Turin back for the end of the First Age). > > Do you think "considered" might be better phrasing? This might be decided a the answer to the question, "Was the final form decided on by the Professor or by Christopher when he edited The Silimarllion." I've got no opinion in this matter. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT