From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: 1 Dec 1999 08:32:21 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 97 Message-ID: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!uio.no!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 lurker@home (bluesbird@crosswinds.net) wrote: : I'd guess that a simple straight bow of wood could shoot a hundred yards : with reasonable accuracy, so we could say that's an OK width. Orcs could : shoot their arrows "far across" the water according to Aragorn, but they'd : be lobbing them for distance, not accuracy. He revealed that fact before : they reached Rohan, so he may have been talking about the upper river, : which he calls a "stream" in that passage. Ordinary orcs would only be moving along the east bank at night, so I'm not sure what kind of targets they would get. A boat, of course, in the moonlight, or campfires on the west bank. So it seems that bunched long shots (lobbed) would be their best bet for hitting something over the river. If a company or so of orcs discovered campfires on the west side, they could stand in a tight formation and lob 50 or so arrows every few seconds, which could hurt someone before the targets took cover. (If the orcs can stop jeering long enough to move into position without being heard). So I would expect the width of the river to be outside of the effective aimed range of the bows, but within the total possible range. (Here one could object that orcs were out in the daylight more and more, and of course ordinary orcs were in the raiding party that killed Boromir in the middle of the day. But when Aragorn discussed the width of the river in terms of bowshots I don't think he was aware yet of the influence the Uruk-hai were having on orc habits) Of course the orcs probably used less than optimal equipment, but still, putting together the above with your, and others' estimates about archery, I am ready to put the Anduin at at least 150 yards wide, in the stretch between Lorien and the Entwash. : So, we may be talking wide but shallow -- or we may not -- who can say? Yes, there's the rub. In the absence of more textual evidence, we seem to have reached a dead end. By the way, some people have questioned the value of this kind of speculation, and even suggested that it shows we don't even like the books. They haven't perhaps considered that this could be useful to think about for anyone who might be interested in trying their hand at fantasy literature and maybe even doing a better job of it than Tolkien did. (That is setting the sights very high, I know). With that in mind I really like the final comment you made below: : BTW, Rauros is an accurate feature. Virtually every river that flows : from a continent into the sea has either a falls or a significant rapids : somewhere upstream, marking the divide between the inland areas and the : coastal plain. For some, like the Mississippi, it's FAR upstream, and the : river is still a major trade artery. The way people build their : settlements, there's almost always a city there, because that's usually : the limit of navigability and the commerce it brings. These days, : Osgiliath or a sister city would be up near Rauros because of the : inland trade opportunities. Trade patterns are very important for understanding dialects, and in particular the maintenance of a lingua franca, or 'common speach'. There seems to be a paradox in ME at the time of the LotR between the intense isolation of various regions, and the existence of a common speach in use from Gondor to Lake Town and the Shire. North of Gondor, at least at the time of the LotR I don't think there were many large trade caravans, probably because of all the orcs. Are there textual references to large scale trade? All I have found in a quick search is travellers, bandits, rangers and the occasional party of elves on their way to the havens. Not enough to prevent dialectical diversion, I think. The various regions _seem_ so cut-off from each other, that the common speach might have to be expected to have diverged much more into dialects than it had, like to the point of unintelligibility. (The Shire being as far from Gondor as Scandinavia from Rome, and with *less* contact than there was even in the dark ages of Europe if I read it right) The orc dialects had diverged in this way, forcing orcs of different tribes to use common speach with each other. But if the orcs weren't in civilized trading contact with elves or men, how could they maintain the common speach at all over the course of hundreds of years? At the time of LotR, how long had the Shire been isolated from the South? Remember, Suaron didn't even know where the Shire _was_, and yet the common speach of the South and the northwest were still intelligible to each other. Perhaps Tolkien would have enjoyed making the dialects more extreme, but then the hobbits wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone else, so for the sake of the story he had to let it be. This is an area on which he was expert, so we have to assume it was conscious choice on his part, and not an oversight, as with weather and geology. --Rett ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:37:19 GMT Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 15 Message-ID: <384515b3.1529953@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: news.sas.ab.ca 944051865 19254 198.161.206.2 (1 Dec 1999 12:37:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 12:37:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!198.161.206.157 On 1 Dec 1999 08:32:21 GMT, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >But if the orcs weren't in civilized trading contact with elves or >men, how could they maintain the common speach at all over the >course of hundreds of years? The story could have been set before the fall of the Tower of Babel, hence languages diverged less rapidly; or, for orcs, the Common Speech was a foreign language they studied for purposes of making war, whose study among them Sauron had recently renewed. If the Common Speech had been a tongue everyone understood and used in daily life, the individual languages of the peoples would likely have died out first, before divergent dialects of the Common Speech became the new individual dialects. ###### From: "E.J. K." <106065.2071@compuserve.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:21:04 +0100 Organization: La Faculté des études elfiques Lines: 61 Message-ID: <384520BE.6E09@compuserve.com> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: par-c45-009-vty105.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com 944054516 13875 195.232.73.105 (1 Dec 1999 13:21:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 13:21:56 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Thiele Everett wrote: > > Trade patterns are very important for understanding dialects, and > in particular the maintenance of a lingua franca, or 'common speach'. > There seems to be a paradox in ME at the time of the LotR between the > intense isolation of various regions, and the existence of a common > speach in use from Gondor to Lake Town and the Shire. > > North of Gondor, at least at the time of the LotR I don't think there > were many large trade caravans, probably because of all the orcs. > Are there textual references to large scale trade? All I have found > in a quick search is travellers, bandits, rangers and the occasional > party of elves on their way to the havens. Not enough to prevent > dialectical diversion, I think. > > The various regions _seem_ so cut-off from each other, that > the common speach might have to be expected to have diverged much > more into dialects than it had, like to the point of unintelligibility. > (The Shire being as far from Gondor as Scandinavia from Rome, and with > *less* contact than there was even in the dark ages of Europe if I > read it right) The orc dialects had diverged in this way, forcing > orcs of different tribes to use common speach with each other. > But if the orcs weren't in civilized trading contact with elves or > men, how could they maintain the common speach at all over the > course of hundreds of years? Common Speech was "taught" either in Schools (in Gondor), and more probabaly by tutors (in the Shire). Hobbits were used to write letters. In fact Tolkien has described the "real" Shire-dialect of the "real" Common Speach. > At the time of LotR, how long had the Shire been isolated from the > South? Remember, Suaron didn't even know where the Shire _was_, and > yet the common speach of the South and the northwest were still > intelligible to each other. This is what Gollum seems to have said to the Elves of Mirkwood... and as to what excatly Sauron did not knwo is another question. Sauron probabaly was just curious about the name... any part of the Arnor and Gondor were called "Shire"... that was probabaly his problem. It may have looked as if Gollum was trying to "cheat" Sauron saying. G. _ The Hobbits lives in the Shire. S. _ What Shire ? >Perhaps Tolkien would have enjoyed making > the dialects more extreme, but then the hobbits wouldn't have been > able to talk to anyone else, so for the sake of the story he had to > let it be. This is an area on which he was expert, so we have to > assume it was conscious choice on his part, and not an oversight, > as with weather and geology. > Tolkien made up the "real" Common Speech inclunding the dialects (but only a few words). EJK ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 83 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:09:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944064378 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:06:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:06:18 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >Ordinary orcs would only be moving along the east bank at night, so I'm >not sure what kind of targets they would get. A boat, of course, in the >moonlight, or campfires on the west bank. So it seems that bunched >long shots (lobbed) would be their best bet for hitting something over >the river. If a company or so of orcs discovered campfires on the west >side, they could stand in a tight formation and lob 50 or so arrows >every few seconds, which could hurt someone before the targets took cover. >(If the orcs can stop jeering long enough to move into position without >being heard). So I would expect the width of the river to be outside >of the effective aimed range of the bows, but within the total possible >range. I don't believe the Orcs had anything to do with the river's basic design. >(Here one could object that orcs were out in the daylight more and more, >and of course ordinary orcs were in the raiding party that killed Boromir >in the middle of the day. But when Aragorn discussed the width of the >river in terms of bowshots I don't think he was aware yet of the influence >the Uruk-hai were having on orc habits) Aragorn had undoubtedly faced Uruks when he served in Gondor as Thorongil. He certainly faced them in Moria, and he claimed to know more about Orcs than anyone else (or, rather, as much about them as anyone else). He didn't stop and ask for a briefing when Gandalf mentioned Uruks from Mordor were in Moria. >Of course the orcs probably used less than optimal equipment, but still, >putting together the above with your, and others' estimates about >archery, I am ready to put the Anduin at at least 150 yards wide, in the >stretch between Lorien and the Entwash. Well, it doesn't really matter. The Orcs weren't shooting arrows across the Anduin anyway. When Orcs attacked the Fellowship at night the boats were close to the eastern shore (they had been carried toward that side of the river by the current). When Legolas shot down the winged beast of the Nazgul, it was flying over the water toward the company. >: So, we may be talking wide but shallow -- or we may not -- who can say? > >Yes, there's the rub. In the absence of more textual evidence, we >seem to have reached a dead end. Well, at the Undeeps, the river was indeed shallow enough to be forded. [snip] >Trade patterns are very important for understanding dialects, and >in particular the maintenance of a lingua franca, or 'common speach'. >There seems to be a paradox in ME at the time of the LotR between the >intense isolation of various regions, and the existence of a common >speach in use from Gondor to Lake Town and the Shire. The common speech had by this time became the native language of most of the regions covered by THE HOBBIT and THE LORD OF THE RINGS. There were dialectal differences in the various regions, but only the Elves, Dwarves, and Rohirrim appear to have retained their own languages. >North of Gondor, at least at the time of the LotR I don't think there >were many large trade caravans, probably because of all the orcs. >Are there textual references to large scale trade? All I have found >in a quick search is travellers, bandits, rangers and the occasional >party of elves on their way to the havens. Not enough to prevent >dialectical diversion, I think. The Dwarves were the most active traders in northern Middle-earth at this time. Rangers may have had some affect on Bree, whose interaction with the Shire may have helped to keep the language fairly uniform in the north. The Shire was not really isolated from the South, however. Lotho Sackville-Baggins, at least, had an active trading relationship with Isengard. It is not unreasonable to infer that the Shire maintain trading relationships with Bree, Tharbad, and the Dwarves of Ered Luin throughout the more than 1,000 years from 1975 to 2912 (the year Tharbad was abandoned). In fact, Tolkien says the Dwarves depended on other peoples for food, and in "The Quest For Erebor" Gandalf implies the Dwarves buy only food and other non-weaponlike stuff from the Shire. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823h9f$1a8_010@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <384515b3.1529953@news.ecn.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:10:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944064426 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:07:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:07:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <384515b3.1529953@news.ecn.ab.ca>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: >On 1 Dec 1999 08:32:21 GMT, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > >>But if the orcs weren't in civilized trading contact with elves or >>men, how could they maintain the common speach at all over the >>course of hundreds of years? > >The story could have been set before the fall of the Tower of Babel, >hence languages diverged less rapidly; or, for orcs, the Common Speech >was a foreign language they studied for purposes of making war, whose >study among them Sauron had recently renewed. It IS set in pre-biblical times: roughly 6,041 years ago. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 182-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 40 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:02:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944067602 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:00:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:00:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newspeer1.nac.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!182-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:09:35 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>(Here one could object that orcs were out in the daylight more and more, >>and of course ordinary orcs were in the raiding party that killed Boromir >>in the middle of the day. But when Aragorn discussed the width of the >>river in terms of bowshots I don't think he was aware yet of the influence >>the Uruk-hai were having on orc habits) > >Aragorn had undoubtedly faced Uruks when he served in Gondor as Thorongil. He >certainly faced them in Moria, and he claimed to know more about Orcs than >anyone else (or, rather, as much about them as anyone else). He didn't stop >and ask for a briefing when Gandalf mentioned Uruks from Mordor were in Moria. Gandalf describes them as 'Uruks'. That's a generic term--all Orcs can be accurately described as 'Uruks'. (It's Elvish: URUKU: anything that causes fear, terror, etc. Hence Quenya 'Urco', Sindarin 'Orch', Black Speech 'Uruk'.) Note that he doesn't call them 'Uruk-hai'. >>North of Gondor, at least at the time of the LotR I don't think there >>were many large trade caravans, probably because of all the orcs. >>Are there textual references to large scale trade? All I have found >>in a quick search is travellers, bandits, rangers and the occasional >>party of elves on their way to the havens. Not enough to prevent >>dialectical diversion, I think. > >The Dwarves were the most active traders in northern Middle-earth at this >time. Rangers may have had some affect on Bree, whose interaction with the >Shire may have helped to keep the language fairly uniform in the north. Ah. This makes sense. The Dwarves are the most active traders--but nobody else is allowed to learn Khuzdul, so they all speak Westron, and everyone else has to know Westron to trade with them. (The idea of Tolkien messing up the hydrology of Anduin is plausible, but it's absurd that he'd get his language development wrong. He was, after all, a Trained Professional.) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 50 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:29:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944069175 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:26:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:26:15 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:09:35 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: >> >>Aragorn had undoubtedly faced Uruks when he served in Gondor as Thorongil. >>He certainly faced them in Moria, and he claimed to know more about Orcs >>than anyone else (or, rather, as much about them as anyone else). He >>didn't stop and ask for a briefing when Gandalf mentioned Uruks from >>Mordor were in Moria. > >Gandalf describes them as 'Uruks'. That's a generic term--all Orcs >can be accurately described as 'Uruks'. (It's Elvish: URUKU: anything >that causes fear, terror, etc. Hence Quenya 'Urco', Sindarin 'Orch', >Black Speech 'Uruk'.) > >Note that he doesn't call them 'Uruk-hai'. 'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. 'And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.' (From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) >>The Dwarves were the most active traders in northern Middle-earth at this >>time. Rangers may have had some affect on Bree, whose interaction with the >>Shire may have helped to keep the language fairly uniform in the north. > >Ah. This makes sense. The Dwarves are the most active traders--but >nobody else is allowed to learn Khuzdul, so they all speak Westron, >and everyone else has to know Westron to trade with them. > >(The idea of Tolkien messing up the hydrology of Anduin is plausible, >but it's absurd that he'd get his language development wrong. He was, >after all, a Trained Professional.) I can't argue authoritatively that Tolkien got Anduin's hydrology right, but I've seen enough misunderstandings posted in that thread to know the criticism is way too heavy. On the other hand, the linguistic picture is weak, and I am guessing that Tolkien felt the Rings had something to do with it the prolonged life of the Common Speech, since they were intended to halt or slow change. Trained Professional or no, he well knew a language should change over a thousand years of use. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Piotr Auksztulewicz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: 1 Dec 1999 20:06:25 +0100 Organization: Politechnika Slaska, Gliwice Lines: 56 Message-ID: <823rjh$8ss$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/800)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.ebone.net!news.ipartners.pl!news.man.poznan.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > I can't argue authoritatively that Tolkien got Anduin's hydrology right, but > I've seen enough misunderstandings posted in that thread to know the criticism > is way too heavy. On the other hand, the linguistic picture is weak, and I am > guessing that Tolkien felt the Rings had something to do with it the prolonged > life of the Common Speech, since they were intended to halt or slow change. > Trained Professional or no, he well knew a language should change over a > thousand years of use. Well, it is not the question why Common Speach did not change, it is a question why it changed in much the same degree in removed areas of M-E. I haven't my books at hand so I can't give quotes, but it is said that, for example, hobbits in some point of their history abandoned their own language and started speaking Westron in their own way (and still kept many names in their own language). The process must have changed the Westron itself, too. Rohirrim kept their own speach, but Westron was their second language (I can't remeber any of them who didn't know it) in somewhat similar way that Gaelic and English are native languages of some Irish people. This bilinguality must have caused changes in both languages. Finally, Dunedain and the lesser people of Gondor and Arnor spoke Westron as their native tongue (though nobles learned Eldarin languages too), as derived from Adunaic and blended with langauages of non-Numenorean people of both kingdoms. Deriving and blending means changing. I think the development and usage patterns of Common Speach in M-E can be compared - to some degree - to the role of English in the USA. There were people of many nations, speaking their own languages, but the domination of one of the nations (English colonists / exiles from Numenor) and single government (more or less) made the language common. This is a mystery, however, how Common Speach remained quite unchanged - as compared to the langauage of the Gondorians - in the Shire and the lands to the East (Beornings, people of Esgaroth etc.) after the fall of the Northern Kingdom. Trade ralationships could explain this, but not fully. From the books we can't say that there was a great exchange of goods between North and South or West and East. Yes, Bilbo's birthday gifts were "imported" from Dale, pipeweed of Shire got into Saruman's stores, dwarves wandered by the Great Road trading their works of metal and stone for food and whatever they needed and so on, but long before the end of the Third Age traffic had rather ceased (how the Greenway got its name is a good evidence). I also doubt that the power of the Rings was such widespread to keep the Common Speach from diverting - from their other effect we can see that their "range of operation" was quite small, just enough to cover central Lothlorien and Rivendell areas. -- Piotr Auksztulewicz piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl Silesian Tech. Univ. Computer Center, 16 Akademicka St., Gliwice, Poland ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8242mj$1bc_010@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <823rjh$8ss$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 66 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:07:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.232 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944082255 207.224.149.232 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:04:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:04:15 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!newspeer.ebone.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <823rjh$8ss$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>, Piotr Auksztulewicz wrote: >I haven't my books at hand so I can't give quotes, but it is said that, >for example, hobbits in some point of their history abandoned their own >language and started speaking Westron in their own way (and still kept >many names in their own language). The process must have changed the Westron >itself, too. Actually, the Hobbits abandoned whatever language(s) they had long before then. They simply adapted the languages of the Men among whom they settled, and they had done so at least since they settled in the Vales of Anduin (apparently early in the Third Age, but that is speculative). >Rohirrim kept their own speach, but Westron was their second language >(I can't remeber any of them who didn't know it) in somewhat similar >way that Gaelic and English are native languages of some Irish people. >This bilinguality must have caused changes in both languages. I would say Tolkien probably accounted for that in his mind, but his story didn't really require it. Maybe words like "Edoras" and "Eored" would be representative of words which would be recognized in Gondor as part of the Common Speech. >Finally, Dunedain and the lesser people of Gondor and Arnor spoke >Westron as their native tongue (though nobles learned Eldarin languages >too), as derived from Adunaic and blended with langauages of non-Numenorean >people of both kingdoms. Deriving and blending means changing. Yes, but the blending and changing appears to have occurred in the Second Age. Hobbits did introduce some pecularities to their dialect after the Stoors migrated to the Shire. I cannot think of any references to older words being preserved (unless maybe the mathom house is an example). >I think the development and usage patterns of Common Speach in M-E can be >compared - to some degree - to the role of English in the USA. There were >people of many nations, speaking their own languages, but the domination >of one of the nations (English colonists / exiles from Numenor) and single >government (more or less) made the language common. Maybe. I'm not a linguist. I can point to specific examples of variation but that's about it. >This is a mystery, however, how Common Speach remained quite unchanged >- as compared to the langauage of the Gondorians - in the Shire and the >lands to the East (Beornings, people of Esgaroth etc.) after the fall >of the Northern Kingdom. Trade ralationships could explain this, but >not fully. From the books we can't say that there was a great exchange >of goods between North and South or West and East. Yes, Bilbo's birthday >gifts were "imported" from Dale, pipeweed of Shire got into Saruman's >stores, dwarves wandered by the Great Road trading their works of metal >and stone for food and whatever they needed and so on, but long before >the end of the Third Age traffic had rather ceased (how the Greenway >got its name is a good evidence). > >I also doubt that the power of the Rings was such widespread to keep >the Common Speach from diverting - from their other effect we can see >that their "range of operation" was quite small, just enough to cover >central Lothlorien and Rivendell areas. It's a purely speculative matter. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 52 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 01:19:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944097561 208.170.95.80 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 19:19:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 19:19:21 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > The various regions _seem_ so cut-off from each other, that > the common speach might have to be expected to have diverged much > more into dialects than it had, like to the point of unintelligibility. > (The Shire being as far from Gondor as Scandinavia from Rome, and with > *less* contact than there was even in the dark ages of Europe if I > read it right) It's not quite that far; more like the distance from London to Rome. > At the time of LotR, how long had the Shire been isolated from the > South? At least a thousand years, from the time of the fall of the North-kingdom. > Remember, Suaron didn't even know where the Shire _was_, and > yet the common speach of the South and the northwest were still > intelligible to each other. Perhaps Tolkien would have enjoyed making > the dialects more extreme, but then the hobbits wouldn't have been > able to talk to anyone else, so for the sake of the story he had to > let it be. This is an area on which he was expert, so we have to > assume it was conscious choice on his part, and not an oversight, > as with weather and geology. I agree with you 100%. Over this geographical extent, and with this amount of time, the Hobbits of the Shire should have been speaking an entirely different language (not just a dialect) from the people in Gondor; moreover, different regions of Gondor should probably have had strongly differentiated dialects. Trade relations aren't even a matter of concern; merchants adapt themselves to whatever languages are spoken, and can't do much to change a given local idiom. What does preserve linguistic unity are common institutions, like school systems, and an abundant literary life; and even then the literary tongue can become divorced from actual speech. Organized governments are the best tools for imposing a linguistic norm that counteracts the very normal centrifugal tendencies of language. (Another thing that can bring about linguistic uniformity over a wide region is the conquest of large territories, but this isn't a possibility; Gondor never asserted its power in the north after 1975.) After the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (the closest analogue to the fall of Arnor), the divergence of various kinds of Latin was very quick; after three hundred years, the people of northern France were speaking a language totally different _both_ from written Latin _and_ from the languages then spoken in Spain and Italy. And I agree that Tolkien must have known this, but since it was extraordinarily awkward to have the Hobbits and other peoples speaking different languages, he fudged. He even minimized the dialect differences between Hobbit-Westron and Gondor-Westron (though he admitted they existed). David Salo ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speech can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 172-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:55:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944124757 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:52:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:52:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!172-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:29:33 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>Gandalf describes them as 'Uruks'. That's a generic term--all Orcs >>can be accurately described as 'Uruks'. (It's Elvish: URUKU: anything >>that causes fear, terror, etc. Hence Quenya 'Urco', Sindarin 'Orch', >>Black Speech 'Uruk'.) >> >>Note that he doesn't call them 'Uruk-hai'. > > 'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. 'And some are large > and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging > back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I > think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.' > (From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) Is this supposed to support your argument that Gandalf and Aragorn knew about the Uruk-hai? ###### From: KBarton Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> Lines: 85 Bytes: 4654 X-Originating-Host: 209.38.98.18 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> X-Wren-Trace: eNv+1tfOicOIkNzR/pLUxsza2MmQ3JTAnoWEgZycmtWNhdWLjQ== Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:55:25 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.41 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 944161766 10.0.2.41 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:09:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:09:26 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: >(Another > thing that can bring about linguistic uniformity over a wide > region is the > conquest of large territories, but this isn't a possibility; > Gondor never > asserted its power in the north after 1975.) After the fall of > the Roman > Empire in the West (the closest analogue to the fall of Arnor), the > divergence of various kinds of Latin was very quick; after three > hundred > years, the people of northern France were speaking a language > totally > different _both_ from written Latin _and_ from the languages then > spoken in > Spain and Italy. Let me start by stating that I _agree_ that there would have been far more shift in the languages in ME than took place. I believe you have overstated the case however. First- There are a couple of major difference between Arnor and the Western Roman Empire. Latin was not the native language of many of the residents of the W.R.E. The new rulers were Germanic Franks, Visigoths and Lombards respectively. Just as happened when the Normans invaded England a fusion of the laguages took place leaving it realitively unintelligable in just a couple of centuries to both speakers of the Germanic Old English and French. In a comparitive amount of time however Shakespearian English while archaic can still be understood well enough that most modern speakers of English can go to a play by Marlow or Shakespeare and not need a translator. In comparison when Arnor fell no invaders replaced it. So there was no strong need for the Breelanders or Shirefolk to change their language to that of some new rulers. No new language was introduced. In addition the few speakers of a language other than "common" were the dwarves who refused to teach their language to non-dwarves, the elves who largely ignored and were ignored by the hobbits, and minor groups of humans such as the Dunlanders (sp?) who did not interact with the hobbits. So even the natural introduction of new words by interaction with neighboring cultures should have been minimal, far less than any comparitively literate culture on earth that I can think of. Second- Gondor was not comparitive to the Eastern Roman Empire linguistically. In the Roman period, even before the split between East and West, the empire was divided linguistically into Latin speaking regions in the West and Greek speaking ones in the East. After the fall of Rome there was no longer a Latin speaking ruler on Earth. The barbarian kings spoke various germanic languages and the Eastern Roman Emperor spoke Greek. In Gondor the "common" language was still spoken after the fall of Arnor. This would provide a great deal of stability to the language Latin never recieved. Anyone in ME wanting to trade with Gondor (the most powerful and prosperous nation in ME) was going to have to use the "common" language. This would guide what development did take place on parallel paths. Some divergance would still take place but not as quickly as would otherwise happen. Perhaps a similar rate as say in the US and Australia during the 19th century. That is probably an unfair comparison, as those two nations, although they did not have much trade between each other, traded with the UK. I doubt that Gondor would have as much of a leveling influence as the UK did in the 19th century. But it would have acted similarly even if not as strongly. Third- There was no motive for change. The hobbits lived in a very stable enviroment. Only one 'war' in living memory had taken place and it was just a single battle. One of the major factors in the change of language is change in enviroment. As far as my reading shows there was no change. So no need for new words or new ways of expressing ideas. This would not stop the change in language but it would slow it considerably. Fourth- The hobbits had a highly literate society. We hear of letter writing, book lending etc. The level seems to compare roughly to that of 19th century England. Literacy also suppresses change in language. Again change does not stop but it can be slowed significantly. Well this has been much longer than I intended. But I think you are right, hobbits would have had a hard time communicating in the same language with someone from Gondor. I think you have largely overestimated the ammount of change that would have occured, even over 1000 years. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:49:24 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.eb X-Server-Date: 2 Dec 1999 22:44:37 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail ksb@intersw.com (KBarton) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In a comparitive amount of time >however Shakespearian English while archaic can still be understood >well enough that most modern speakers of English can go to a play by >Marlow or Shakespeare and not need a translator. I have heard that Dante's Italian is not very different from modern Italian, much closer than Shakespearean English to modern English. Anyone know whether that's true? Dante wrote about 700 years ago, so if Italian truly has not changed much in that time it would be easier to accept a nearly-unchanged Common Speech in a thousand years. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: ranvei@online.nn (Tamfiiris) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> Organization: http://www.angelfire.com/la/tamf X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 X-Tolkien-Fanatic: yes Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:33:27 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.233.161 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@online.no X-Trace: news1.online.no 944271110 130.67.233.161 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 02:31:50 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 02:31:50 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!news1.online.no!not-for-mail on Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:49:24 -0500, Stan Brown writed: > I have heard that Dante's Italian is not very different from modern > Italian, much closer than Shakespearean English to modern English. Anyone > know whether that's true? it's true. i have studied italian for a year now and i can read Dante with no more difficulty than i read ordinary italian. if i were to read a norwegian text (which is my native language) from the same period, i would be in for some real trouble. > Dante wrote about 700 years ago, so if Italian truly has not changed much > in that time it would be easier to accept a nearly-unchanged Common > Speech in a thousand years. nah, i don't buy it. next you'll expect me to believe in dwarves and elven hideouts, won't you? }:8) -- **Tamfiiris C. Gloruloke **** bouncy yellow dragon of TEUNC **** eh? * after all, if one's imagination readily grants full human rights to future AI programs, robots, dolphins, and extraterrestrial aliens, mere color and gender can't seem very important any more. * - the Jargon File ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82ae23$3mk_008@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944290487 207.224.149.166 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:54:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:54:47 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , ranvei@online.nn (Tamfiiris) wrote: >it's true. i have studied italian for a year now and i can read Dante >with no more difficulty than i read ordinary italian. if i were to >read a norwegian text (which is my native language) from the same >period, i would be in for some real trouble. I've heard that studying Italian doesn't help much with the Scandinavian languages! -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: 4 Dec 1999 08:45:12 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 59 Message-ID: <82akao$hg1$1@oden.abc.se> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Stan Brown (brahms@mindspring.com) wrote: : ksb@intersw.com (KBarton) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: : >In a comparitive amount of time : >however Shakespearian English while archaic can still be understood : >well enough that most modern speakers of English can go to a play by : >Marlow or Shakespeare and not need a translator. The period from Shakespeare's time to today has been marked by increasing transportation, communication and trade. Wheras the period leading up to LotR was marked by relative isolation and fragmentation, at least according to some people's interpretation. : I have heard that Dante's Italian is not very different from modern : Italian, much closer than Shakespearean English to modern English. Anyone : know whether that's true? : Dante wrote about 700 years ago, so if Italian truly has not changed much : in that time it would be easier to accept a nearly-unchanged Common : Speech in a thousand years. The thing is, that refers to written Italian, not spoken, which shows very wide dialectical variation. I am still pretty convinced that Hobbit speach and Gondor speech couldn't be mutually intelligible at the time of LotR *if* things worked there like they do in our world. However a couple of people have brought up the nice point that perhaps at that younger time of the world languages simply changed more slowly, that all forms of decay were less active then. (Though of course change encompasses not only decay but also creation of the new). I find this idea appealing because permanence vs. change is an important theme in LotR. But above all, as also has been mentioned, it is important for the smooth flow of the story to have the hobbits able to communicate with beings in other parts of Middle Earth. It's useful to notice this kind of fudging which narratives require. Tolkien was not only a world-inventer but also a very good storyteller, and the story definitely takes precedence at times over the coherence of the imaginary world. Compare for instance the 'universal translator' in Star Trek, which is totally unbelievable and incoherently portrayed (especially in the original series) but necessary for the episodes to play well. In the 'Voyager' series they have gone to a lot of trouble to explain and justify the translator, which amounts to an after-the-fact rationalization of a narrative requirement. This is rather like someone desperately trying to defend the absolute coherence and perfection of Middle Earth's geography and dialectology with tortured, after-the-fact speculations.* It is perhaps better to go along with those who are content with the fact that creating a pefectly coherent imaginary world is well-nigh impossible. Though I think we all agree on one thing, that Tolkien did a real fine job of trying, probably the best yet. --Rett * I should add that I welcome such speculations, as long as they don't try to stomp out all discussion of alternative interpretations. ###### From: ranvei@online.nn (Tamfiiris) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> <82ae23$3mk_008@news.uswest.net> Organization: http://www.angelfire.com/la/tamf X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.12 X-Tolkien-Fanatic: yes Lines: 14 Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:56:47 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.67.231.28 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@online.no X-Trace: news1.online.no 944319311 130.67.231.28 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:55:11 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:55:11 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.online.no!newsfeed.online.no!news1.online.no!not-for-mail on Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:11 GMT, Michael Martinez writed: > I've heard that studying Italian doesn't help much with the Scandinavian > languages! oh DARN! ... should i switch to quenya? -- **Tamfiiris C. Gloruloke **** bouncy yellow dragon of TEUNC **** eh? * it is no good talking to hobbits about dragons: they either disbelieve you, or feel uncomfortable; and in either case tend to avoid you afterwards. * - JRR Tolkien ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speech Message-ID: References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 108 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:55:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944171713 208.170.95.26 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:55:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:55:13 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com>, KBarton wrote: > Let me start by stating that I _agree_ that there would have been far > more shift in the languages in ME than took place. I believe you have > overstated the case however. Maybe! But maybe not as much as you suggest, either. > First- There are a couple of major difference between Arnor and the > Western Roman Empire. Latin was not the native language of many of the > residents of the W.R.E. The new rulers were Germanic Franks, Visigoths > and Lombards respectively. Just as happened when the Normans invaded > England a fusion of the laguages took place leaving it realitively > unintelligable in just a couple of centuries to both speakers of the > Germanic Old English and French. I don't think that most scholars of modern Romance would agree. Most of the Germanic element in the Romance languages had already been absorbed while the languages were still identifiably Latin. The Visigothic element in Spanish vocabulary is trivial. The Frankish element in French is somewhat greater, but still not terribly great. The changes in French pronunciation, grammar, and syntax are not easily related to the pronunciation, grammar, and syntax of Frankish. For instance, Frankish (like other Germanic languages) had at least four cases: Nominative, Accusative, Genitive and Dative. Latin had five, with the Ablative. But Old French had only two, Nominative and Accusative; and modern French of course has only one. > Second- Gondor was not comparitive to the Eastern Roman Empire > linguistically. In the Roman period, even before the split between East > and West, the empire was divided linguistically into Latin speaking > regions in the West and Greek speaking ones in the East. After the fall > of Rome there was no longer a Latin speaking ruler on Earth. The > barbarian kings spoke various germanic languages and the Eastern Roman > Emperor spoke Greek. This is not entirely true. For some time after the loss of the Western provinces, the East Roman Emperors continued to use Latin (as well as Greek); and the great code of Roman Law, the Corpus Juris Civilis, was issued in _Latin_ by the _Eastern_ Emperor Justinian I, while Rome was ruled by Ostrogoths. And the Latin language was of course preserved anywhere there was a Christian church. However, this didn't prevent the rapid divergence of local dialects. > Some divergance would still take > place but not as quickly as would otherwise happen. Perhaps a similar > rate as say in the US and Australia during the 19th century. I sometimes find Australian speech almost incomprehensible! > Third- There was no motive for change. The hobbits lived in a very > stable enviroment. Only one 'war' in living memory had taken place and > it was just a single battle. One of the major factors in the change of > language is change in enviroment. As far as my reading shows there was > no change. So no need for new words or new ways of expressing ideas. > This would not stop the change in language but it would slow it > considerably. On the other hand, we have evidence that the hobbits' language was rather different 900 years before the War of the Ring, as shown in the day-names of the Year-book of Tuckborough: Sterrendei, Sunnendei, Monendei, Trewesdei, Hevenesdei, Meresdei, Highdei These are comparable to forms of maybe the twelfth century (800 years or so before The Lord of the Rings was written). So hobbit-language might have changed a little more slowly than English, but not that much more slowly. > Fourth- The hobbits had a highly literate society. We hear of letter > writing, book lending etc. The level seems to compare roughly to that > of 19th century England. Literacy also suppresses change in language. > Again change does not stop but it can be slowed significantly. Early or late 19th century? Not all hobbits were literate; Gaffer Gamgee wasn't, and hoped "no harm will come" from Bilbo teaching Sam to read; possibly suggesting that most of his audience at The Ivy Bush was not literate either. > Well this has been much longer than I intended. But I think you are > right, hobbits would have had a hard time communicating in the same > language with someone from Gondor. I think you have largely > overestimated the ammount of change that would have occured, even over > 1000 years. I will say this much in agreement with you: language change is not a constant, and is sometimes fast and sometimes slow. Modern Icelanders and Iranians can read classics written in their languages of about a thousand years ago (less in the case of the Icelanders, somewhat more, actually, in the case of the Iranians). (Written Italian is also very conservative, but contrasts greatly with the spoken dialects.) This has something to do with the conservatism of the written language (as opposed to speech); certainly neither modern Icelandic nor modern Persian are pronounced quite the way they were 1000 years ago. It also has something to do with the retarding effect of a strong and productive literary tradition on language change. Written English has changed remarkably little over the past 350 years, in orthography of course, but also in grammar; it has received a great infusion of new vocabulary, but almost all of the vocabulary of c. 1650 is still in use; it has changed a little in pronunciation, but not much. The most striking differences are in literary style, of all things. And I think you are probably right if you suggest that American, British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand English are likely to become more like each other rather than less as time wears on; English has arrived at a kind of "fixed", even "classical" state that seems likely to change very little over the ensuing centuries. David Salo ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speech can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825gho$1pg_042@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:10:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944129201 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:06:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:06:41 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:29:33 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>>Gandalf describes them as 'Uruks'. That's a generic term--all Orcs >>>can be accurately described as 'Uruks'. (It's Elvish: URUKU: anything >>>that causes fear, terror, etc. Hence Quenya 'Urco', Sindarin 'Orch', >>>Black Speech 'Uruk'.) >>> >>>Note that he doesn't call them 'Uruk-hai'. >> >> 'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. 'And some are large >> and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging >> back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I >> think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.' >> (From "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) > >Is this supposed to support your argument that Gandalf and Aragorn >knew about the Uruk-hai? Are you seriously going to put words into my mouth in order to dodge the bullet on the fact that I corrected your mistake? I notice you snipped the line you were responding to, where I was talking about "Uruks of Mordor". -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speech can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3846c797.228622336@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> <825gho$1pg_042@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 216-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 44 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:32:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944162979 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:29:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:29:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!216-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:10:00 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: [SNIP] >I notice you snipped the line you were responding to, where I was talking >about "Uruks of Mordor". I'm allowed to snip things. It's my newsreader. Now, since you're insinuating that I snipped something relevant, I'll post the first part of this discussion: Someone: >>>(Here one could object that orcs were out in the daylight more and more, >>>and of course ordinary orcs were in the raiding party that killed Boromir >>>in the middle of the day. But when Aragorn discussed the width of the >>>river in terms of bowshots I don't think he was aware yet of the influence >>>the Uruk-hai were having on orc habits) Michael: >>Aragorn had undoubtedly faced Uruks when he served in Gondor as Thorongil. He >>certainly faced them in Moria, and he claimed to know more about Orcs than >>anyone else (or, rather, as much about them as anyone else). He didn't stop >>and ask for a briefing when Gandalf mentioned Uruks from Mordor were in Moria. Me: >Gandalf describes them as 'Uruks'. That's a generic term--all Orcs >can be accurately described as 'Uruks'. (It's Elvish: URUKU: anything >that causes fear, terror, etc. Hence Quenya 'Urco', Sindarin 'Orch', >Black Speech 'Uruk'.) >Note that he doesn't call them 'Uruk-hai'. The issue here is whether Gandalf and Aragorn knew about the Uruk-hai. Your claim that they talked about "Uruks of Mordor" is irrelevant, because 'Uruk' is a generic term, and everyone knows they come from Mordor. This doesn't imply any knowledge of the Uruk-hai. Are you done confusing the issue? ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speech can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> <825gho$1pg_042@news.uswest.net> <3846c797.228622336@news.pc-intouch.com> <828vm4$23g_022@news.uswest.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 18 Date: 3 Dec 1999 10:45:39 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944246745 198.172.26.10 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:45:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:45:45 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:46:44 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>The issue here is whether Gandalf and Aragorn knew about the Uruk-hai. > >Nope. You took exception to my use of the term "Uruks of Mordor", which I >lifted from the book. Maybe you wouldn't have as many problems with losing track of the issue at hand if you occasionally went back and reread the preceding portion of the thread. >But since David Salo came to my rescue, I see no reason to repeat what he so >aptly pointed out for you. He's made his point to my satisfaction. He had *evidence*. You know, that stuff that you use to support assertions? Well, he found some, and it was specific and relevant, and he presented it without scolding anyone for the mortal sin of Disagreeing With The Author. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speech can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <828vm4$23g_022@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> <825gho$1pg_042@news.uswest.net> <3846c797.228622336@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:46:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944243001 207.224.147.147 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:43:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:43:21 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846c797.228622336@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:10:00 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >[SNIP] > >>I notice you snipped the line you were responding to, where I was talking >>about "Uruks of Mordor". > >I'm allowed to snip things. It's my newsreader. > >Now, since you're insinuating that I snipped something relevant, I'll >post the first part of this discussion: And I'm allowed to point out that you've snipped what you're responding to so as to try and change the subject. >The issue here is whether Gandalf and Aragorn knew about the Uruk-hai. Nope. You took exception to my use of the term "Uruks of Mordor", which I lifted from the book. But since David Salo came to my rescue, I see no reason to repeat what he so aptly pointed out for you. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speech can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82ae3d$3mk_010@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <823h7v$1a8_008@news.uswest.net> <38455372.133338944@news.pc-intouch.com> <823ltt$1a8_060@news.uswest.net> <3846330d.190590430@news.pc-intouch.com> <825gho$1pg_042@news.uswest.net> <3846c797.228622336@news.pc-intouch.com> <828vm4$23g_022@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944290529 207.224.149.166 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:55:29 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:55:29 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:46:44 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>The issue here is whether Gandalf and Aragorn knew about the Uruk-hai. >> >>Nope. You took exception to my use of the term "Uruks of Mordor", which I >>lifted from the book. > >Maybe you wouldn't have as many problems with losing track of the issue at >hand if you occasionally went back and reread the preceding portion of the >thread. I didn't lose track of anything. But I'm not going to get into a citation war with you, since all you want to do right now is doctor past articles. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82bk2c$168_022@news.uswest.net> References: <822mel$lo4$1@oden.abc.se> <04e9bbf8.2c73e819@usw-ex0107-041.remarq.com> <82ae23$3mk_008@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:46:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.230 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944329407 207.224.149.230 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:43:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:43:27 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , ranvei@online.nn (Tamfiiris) wrote: >on Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:11 GMT, Michael Martinez writed: > >> I've heard that studying Italian doesn't help much with the Scandinavian >> languages! > >oh DARN! >.... >should i switch to quenya? Not being a Finn, I couldn't really tell you. :) -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:36:13 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 20 Message-ID: <28595-3849EBBD-69@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <82bk2c$168_022@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQtsqcxjZiYHOZTMmy6OQliNXyjKwIUTbMPYIIl7zVdGT2ZB22BX3DpV8M= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >>>I've heard that studying Italian doesn't >>>help much with the Scandinavian >>>languages! >>should i switch to quenya? >Not being a Finn, I couldn't really tell >you. :) That probably wouldn't help, considering that Finnish is completely unrelated to the Nordic languages. What's that? You were joking? Never mind... --Dave ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:26:46 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <82bk2c$168_022@news.uswest.net> <28595-3849EBBD-69@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.96 X-Server-Date: 5 Dec 1999 18:19:10 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >That probably wouldn't help, considering that Finnish is completely >unrelated to the Nordic languages. Since Finland is part of Norden, Finnish is ipso facto a Nordic language. I think what you mean is that Finnish is unrelated to the Scandinavian languages, and that's true. >What's that? You were joking? > >Never mind... Ditto... -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) References: <82bk2c$168_022@news.uswest.net> <28595-3849EBBD-69@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 171-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 7 Date: 5 Dec 1999 21:32:52 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944458376 198.172.26.10 (Mon, 06 Dec 1999 05:32:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 05:32:56 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:36:13 -0500 (EST), David Sulger wrote: >That probably wouldn't help, considering that Finnish is completely >unrelated to the Nordic languages. No, but it's related to Quenya. (As we all know, the Finns are really a lost tribe of Avari.) ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Common Speach can't exist (and a bit on orc archery) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 09:23:54 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 25 Message-ID: <384B729A.1DCAA469@cable.A2000.nl> References: <82bk2c$168_022@news.uswest.net> <28595-3849EBBD-69@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 944468610 1597 62.108.12.92 (6 Dec 1999 08:23:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Dec 1999 08:23:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote: > orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >That probably wouldn't help, considering that Finnish is completely > >unrelated to the Nordic languages. > > Since Finland is part of Norden, Finnish is ipso facto a Nordic language. > I think what you mean is that Finnish is unrelated to the Scandinavian > languages, and that's true. > I seem to remember Tolkien hated the word `Nordic'. It was invented by French linguists (Nordique) and consisted of a mixture of German and French. He preferred the term `Norse', which I doubt applies to Finnish. Renée V. -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html