From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: 30 Nov 1999 06:50:33 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 10 Message-ID: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Anduin south of Lorien is described as being the width of a 'long bowshot'. Standing on the east bank, an orc might just hit someone standing on the west bank. What distance would that be? --Rett ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8211ik$1ac_028@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:29:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.95 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943982802 209.181.118.95 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:26:42 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:26:42 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >Anduin south of Lorien is described as being the width of a 'long >bowshot'. Standing on the east bank, an orc might just hit someone >standing on the west bank. What distance would that be? Maybe 100-150 yards. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:51:11 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.56.119.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: stones 943984211 212.56.119.214 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:50:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:50:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!stones.POSTED!not-for-mail Thiele Everett wrote in message <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se>... > >Anduin south of Lorien is described as being the width of a 'long >bowshot'. Standing on the east bank, an orc might just hit someone >standing on the west bank. What distance would that be? First guess - a furlong (220 yards). Second guess - (gets out 6 year old Guiness Book of Records) - the longest distance at which a world archery record is noted is 90 metres (100 yards) - so maybe 100 yards Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net ###### From: Iain Singer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:50:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: ioscm.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ioscm.demon.co.uk:158.152.57.130 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 943988596 nnrp-03:6610 NO-IDENT ioscm.demon.co.uk:158.152.57.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 S Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ioscm.demon.co.uk!Iain In article , Andrew Wells writes >Thiele Everett wrote in message <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se>... >> >>Anduin south of Lorien is described as being the width of a 'long >>bowshot'. Standing on the east bank, an orc might just hit someone >>standing on the west bank. What distance would that be? > >First guess - a furlong (220 yards). > >Second guess - (gets out 6 year old Guiness Book of Records) - the longest >distance at which a world archery record is noted is 90 metres (100 yards) - >so maybe 100 yards > >Andrew >-- >Andrew Wells I'd go with the first guess (the second refers I am sure to target archery but this hardly represents a long range for a longbow) - a medieval longbow could shoot an arrow 250 yards - the medieval "clout" competition was run routinely at a distance of 12 score yards (240 yards) - now shortened to 9 score for gents in the current era (safety considerations and less powerful bows (we don't currently need bows punching through armour)). Clout involves shooting arrows in an arcing trajectory to get range. Off the top of my head the best distance achieved with a longbow and arrow (rather than flight bows which can go many hundreds of yards) is between 3 and 400 yards - not that you'd have any accuracy at that range and you'd need to be built like Arnie to pull the bow. A long shot for a bow would I would guess be around 200-240 yards. For interest long shot with 55lb wooden longbow and standard target arrow (not flight or tapered or anything) is 240 yards - using a medieval style arrow (far heavier) with bodkin head 180 yards. Heavier bows would shoot further with good technique (the latter being more important) and medieval bows were probably around the 90-100;b mark. Mary Rose bows may for a few individuals have gone up to 150lbs - some very respected modern bowyers would disagree that they are anything but early working staves and a bow built to that tension would snap dramatically on its user. -- Iain Singer ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: 02 Dec 1999 00:21:19 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 69 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uso1m6yds.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Iain Singer writes: > > In article , Andrew Wells l.force10.co.uk> writes > > > >First guess - a furlong (220 yards). > > > >Second guess - (gets out 6 year old Guiness Book of Records) - the longest > >distance at which a world archery record is noted is 90 metres (100 yards) - > >so maybe 100 yards That 90 yards is the longest FITA* target distance, that is for accuracy shooting, not for distance. * Federation International de Tir a Arche > I'd go with the first guess (the second refers I am sure to target > archery but this hardly represents a long range for a longbow) - a That _is_ definitely target. Normal out door distance. > medieval longbow could shoot an arrow 250 yards - the medieval "clout" > competition was run routinely at a distance of 12 score yards (240 Modern 50lb will do 250 yards, if accuracy is of no importance. Normal medieval bows were 100lb, so it is only a factor of 2 difference, and they did war shooting at 250 yards. > yards) - now shortened to 9 score for gents in the current era (safety > considerations Not to forget lack of space. Try finding 100s of yards of space with nothing behind it. > and less powerful bows (we don't currently need bows > punching through armour)). :-) > 3 and 400 yards - not that you'd have any accuracy at that range and > you'd need to be built like Arnie to pull the bow. Actually a lot less than Arnie. Any normal todays office dweller can pull up to about 70lb (but accuracy suffers over 50lb due to unsteady holding). > important) and medieval bows were probably around the 90-100;b mark. > Mary Rose bows may for a few individuals have gone up to 150lbs - some I second that one. > very respected modern bowyers would disagree that they are anything but > early working staves and a bow built to that tension would snap > dramatically on its user. I have seen a 100lb bow, handed to my by the person who shot it. Definitely not "unfinished". -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: Hartley Patterson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 00:06:30 +0000 Organization: News from Bree Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-24.name59.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 944093258 22279 62.136.189.24 (2 Dec 1999 00:07:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1999 00:07:38 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Iain Singer wrote: > >>Anduin south of Lorien is described as being the width of a 'long > >>bowshot'. Standing on the east bank, an orc might just hit someone > >>standing on the west bank. What distance would that be? [snip] > Clout involves shooting arrows in an arcing trajectory to get range. Off > the top of my head the best distance achieved with a longbow and arrow > (rather than flight bows which can go many hundreds of yards) is between > 3 and 400 yards - not that you'd have any accuracy at that range and > you'd need to be built like Arnie to pull the bow. A long shot for a bow > would I would guess be around 200-240 yards. I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! By 'long bowshot' he must mean a ballistic (arcing) trajectory as opposed to aiming (see the famous 1944 Henry V film), fine for massed volley fire but definitely Hail Mary for a single target. In wargaming (one of my hobbies) it is normal to have two ranges for bows, firing at 'long range' is at half effect. But then orcs... I have the impression orcs were too small to cope with longbows, unless this is Uruk-hai we're talking about. Next question: is 250 metres a reasonable width for the Anduin at that point? -- "I think of my beautiful city in flames" http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/ A medieval spreadsheet, enturbulating entheta, how to outrun Thread and some riddles preciousss.... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:55:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944128312 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:51:52 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:51:52 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk>, Hartley Patterson wrote: >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the Orcs were using short bows? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Hartley Patterson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:20:31 +0000 Organization: News from Bree Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3846F0AF.1BFF95B@vossnet.co.uk> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-136.name53.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 944173299 25656 62.136.186.136 (2 Dec 1999 22:21:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1999 22:21:39 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must > >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! > > And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the > Orcs were using short bows? Yes, I do lurk on this ng, and no I'm not going to be drawn into another debate on whether Middle-earth resembles medieval Europe. Delete 'medieval warfare expert', insert 'military historian', and lose a brownie point for being pedantic. -- "I think of my beautiful city in flames" http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/ A medieval spreadsheet, enturbulating entheta, how to outrun Thread and some riddles preciousss.... ###### Message-ID: <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:58:41 +0100 From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.5.77.205 X-Trace: 2 Dec 1999 22:56:17 +0100, 195.5.77.205 Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.bt.es!news.arrakis.es!195.5.77.205 Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk>, Hartley Patterson wrote: > >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must > >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! > > And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the > Orcs were using short bows? Medieval warfare have little to do with ME(as discussed in previous threads...), the use of long or short bows however, is relevant, whether the bows are medieval or made of kevlar, short bows have shorter range, and the best acuracy, while long bows have greater range. The logical explanation IMHO, is that Tolkien refered to "long bowshots" to those made with the greater range bows(long bows). -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Greetings from Malaga(SPAIN) from Javier Caselli (j_caselli@arrakis.es) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:19:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.178 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944176574 207.224.148.178 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:16:14 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:16:14 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es>, Javier Caselli wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> In article <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk>, Hartley Patterson > wrote: >> >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must >> >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! >> >> And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the >> Orcs were using short bows? > >Medieval warfare have little to do with ME(as discussed in previous >threads...), the use of long or short bows however, is relevant, >whether the bows are medieval or made of kevlar, short bows have >shorter range, and the best acuracy, while long bows have greater >range. The logical explanation IMHO, is that Tolkien refered to >"long bowshots" to those made with the greater range bows(long > bows). Logic is hard dog to walk. Aragorn said, "Anduin is wide, yet the orcs can shoot their arrows far across the stream". The river was therefore not very wide with respect to a bowshot, particularly an orc bow. The only orcs we know of who used long bows were the Uruk-hai of Isengard, and Aragorn had not yet encountered them. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <826uun$1eg_040@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846F0AF.1BFF95B@vossnet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:21:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.178 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944176718 207.224.148.178 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:18:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:18:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846F0AF.1BFF95B@vossnet.co.uk>, Hartley Patterson wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must >> >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! >> >> And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the >> Orcs were using short bows? > >Yes, I do lurk on this ng, and no I'm not going to be drawn into another >debate on whether Middle-earth resembles medieval Europe. Delete >'medieval warfare expert', insert 'military historian', and lose a >brownie point for being pedantic. Shucks. I was so looking forward to being told what my interpretation is, how I'm the only intractible person in the news group, that I can only resort to name-calling and bullying when I can't have my way, and that if it weren't for me the Tolkien groups would be a much nicer place and filled with scholarly reasoned debate. Ah well, life sucks on some days.... -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:39:06 +0100 From: Javier Caselli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.5.75.220 X-Trace: 4 Dec 1999 11:36:41 +0100, 195.5.75.220 Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.bt.es!news.arrakis.es!195.5.75.220 Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es>, Javier Caselli wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > > > >> In article <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk>, Hartley Patterson > > wrote: > >> >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must > >> >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! > >> > >> And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the > >> Orcs were using short bows? > > > >Medieval warfare have little to do with ME(as discussed in previous > >threads...), the use of long or short bows however, is relevant, > >whether the bows are medieval or made of kevlar, short bows have > >shorter range, and the best acuracy, while long bows have greater > >range. The logical explanation IMHO, is that Tolkien refered to > >"long bowshots" to those made with the greater range bows(long > > bows). > > Logic is hard dog to walk. > > Aragorn said, "Anduin is wide, yet the orcs can shoot their arrows far across > the stream". The river was therefore not very wide with respect to a bowshot, > particularly an orc bow. The only orcs we know of who used long bows were the > Uruk-hai of Isengard, and Aragorn had not yet encountered them. True enough, but then I wonder why they called it "long bowshot", perhaps it was because the orcs had to tense(strain would be cmore correct??) their short bows to the limit to get the maximum range, and thus, reach the other side of the stream of Anduin. Anyway you are quite right about the orcs, except for the Uruk Hai, other orc races were to short(and yet probably strong enough) to use long bows, they would need a ladder to get to the nesesary height to use them! :-) -- "Through darkness one may come to the light" "Yet one will walk under the sun while one may" Greetings from Malaga(SPAIN) from Javier Caselli (j_caselli@arrakis.es) ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Lines: 67 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:53:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944319193 24.30.175.94 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:53:13 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:53:13 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Javier Caselli wrote in message <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es>... >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> In article <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es>, Javier Caselli wrote: >> >Michael Martinez wrote: >> > >> >> In article <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk>, Hartley Patterson >> > wrote: >> >> >I'm sure Tolkien would have checked on this - Oxford University must >> >> >have had a medieval warfare expert somewhere! >> >> >> >> And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth or the fact the >> >> Orcs were using short bows? >> > >> >Medieval warfare have little to do with ME(as discussed in previous >> >threads...), the use of long or short bows however, is relevant, >> >whether the bows are medieval or made of kevlar, short bows have >> >shorter range, and the best acuracy, while long bows have greater >> >range. The logical explanation IMHO, is that Tolkien refered to >> >"long bowshots" to those made with the greater range bows(long >> > bows). >> >> Logic is hard dog to walk. >> >> Aragorn said, "Anduin is wide, yet the orcs can shoot their arrows far across >> the stream". The river was therefore not very wide with respect to a bowshot, >> particularly an orc bow. The only orcs we know of who used long bows were the >> Uruk-hai of Isengard, and Aragorn had not yet encountered them. > >True enough, but then I wonder why they called it "long bowshot", perhaps it was because >the orcs had to tense(strain would be cmore correct??) their short bows to the limit to get >the maximum range, and thus, reach the other side of the stream of Anduin. Anyway you are >quite right about the orcs, except for the Uruk Hai, other orc races were to short(and yet >probably strong enough) to use long bows, they would need a ladder to get to the nesesary >height to use them! :-) > > I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented until our own age anyway. Both the orcs physical stature and their group personality may be evidence of that. The largest orcs are described as "almost man-high." If an average orc tried to use an English longbow, the end would be dragging on the ground, and even though orc arms are long, he might not be able to make a full draw with it. So -- most of the weapon's capabilities would be wasted. Orcs are also short-lived and low on patience, and they are active at night. The longer the bow, the more practice is required to shoot it accurately. That mitigates toward the short bow for orcs, since they wouldn't take the time to practice with the more difficult weapon. At night, vision is limited, so most shooting would be done at close range -- that's short bow territory. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: 04 Dec 1999 19:34:56 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uwvquftbj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Javier Caselli writes: > > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > > > And what would medieval warfare have to do with Middle-earth Both used bows. > > or the fact the > > Orcs were using short bows? The turks used short bows against the crusaders. That was medieval time. > bows however, is relevant, whether the bows are medieval or made of kevlar, Yes. Material (wood, fiberglass, steel, kevlar) is irrelevant from the point of the bow performing (not from cost or robustness though). > short bows have shorter range, > and the best acuracy, while long bows have greater range. Could you back that claim up? Range depends soley on the amount of energy that the bow will impart on the arrow. That depends mainly on how much energy the bow will store (i.e. how much the archer can put into it). That is dependant on draw distance and on the force/distance curve. Draw distance is equal for short and long bows (if designed properly) and force/distance has more to do with shape (straight vs recurved or even compound) than with size. > The logical explanation IMHO, is that Tolkien > refered to "long bowshots" to those made with the greater range > bows(long bows). Nope. "Long shots" are those where achieving distance is more important than target accuracy (usually only done wiht large targets, such as an entire army). Neil Franklin, longbow/recurve archer and sometimes logbow boyer. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: 04 Dec 1999 20:10:25 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 97 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uu2lyfroe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "lurker@home" writes: > > Javier Caselli wrote in message <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es>... > > > >True enough, but then I wonder why they called it "long bowshot", perhaps > it was because > >the orcs had to tense(strain would be cmore correct??) their short bows to > the limit to get > >the maximum range, and thus, reach the other side of the stream of Anduin. Nope. Any bow is built to some specific draw length, going over that is very detrimental to its health. Making an bow that can draw a lot further than its intended draw length (and not using that reserve) simply adds material and results in a heavy (and so less efficient) bow. > to short(and yet > >probably strong enough) to use long bows, they would need a ladder to get > to the nesesary > >height to use them! :-) See below. > I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented > until our own age anyway. Rubbish. Long bows were in use in the stone age. Mine is an replica of an design from ca 8000 years ago (Holmegaard type). It is 6ft 2in. The same design is used by american and african natives. Note that these bows are thin and wide (similar to the american flat bow), unlike the english yew long bow which is thicker and narrow (and only about 800 years old). But I doubt that Tolkien is refering to english long bow styles, as they require mass manufacture by cottage-industry level professionals (and are actually the easier design to make under such conditions). Also the english bow is more finicky treatement wise. This is an OK compromise for organised medieval armies, but not for ME hunters or small war bands, particularly orcs! > The largest orcs are described as "almost man-high." If an average orc tried > to use an English longbow, the end would be dragging on the ground, and even If one assumes "almost man-high" to be 5ft, then their arms (when horizontal to hold a bow) are about 4 ft above ground. Well enough for an 6ft (2 times 3ft) bow. No dragging. Definitely no ladder. > though orc arms are long, he might not be able to make a full draw with it. > So -- most of the weapon's capabilities would be wasted. Simply tiller the bow for shorter draw length (and see it explode into shards if an elf using an captured orc bow pulls it to longer length. BTW: Legolas reusing Orc arrows would be impossible if they are made for short draw lengths. He would ram them into his fingers or be reduced in draw length (and so power usage from his bow), and lose his trained anchoring point (and so accuracy). > The longer the bow, the more practice is required to shoot it accurately. Nope. Accuracy is purly an thing of training the exact position to hold the bow (actually the arrow). That depends on body/arm size (invariable), the arrow length (constant in a mached set), where the archer "anchors" the arrow (a personal preference), and matching the target/arrow point distance to the estimated shot distance. Low patience orcs can be expected to be less accurate, but that is a feature of the orc, not the bow. > That mitigates toward the short bow for orcs, since they wouldn't take the > time to practice with the more difficult weapon. Actually short bows are more difficult to make (stress in the material), long bows are less strained, so they can use lesser material and craftmanship. Short bows are actually an compromise which are mainly used by horse riding cultures such as turks, mongols, prairie indians, because of manouvering on horse back (long bow hitting horse when changing side). So I would expect orcs to have have used large bows. OTOH I don't think Tolkien knew all that. So he may have given orcs short bows because they have an public image of inferiority in british culture. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:35:08 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.a5 X-Server-Date: 4 Dec 1999 15:30:14 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail bluesbird@crosswinds.net (lurker@home) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented >until our own age anyway. I don't think we can assume that. There are plenty of references in /LotR/ to things that were invented much later: matches, for instance. We had a thread about this just a few days ago. I hesitate to describe a consensus on *any* thread in this group, but at least some of seemed to feel that an in-story explanation could be inventions that existed then but were forgotten sometime during the Fourth or later Ages and had to be rediscovered. Gunpowder is another obvious example, both Gandalf's fireworks and Saruman's explosives. Also catapults. So there's no reason longbows could not exist in Middle-earth. As to whether Orcs were physically able to use them, that's certainly debatable, but don't forget they were stronger than many Men. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 193-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 22 Date: 4 Dec 1999 13:29:38 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944342983 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:29:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:29:43 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:53:13 GMT, lurker@home wrote: >I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented >until our own age anyway. Both the orcs physical stature and their group >personality may be evidence of that. NAK! NAK! If we assume a chronology that places the events of Middle-earth in our distant past (with the Third Age ending before 3000 BC), it's clear (even leaving out a few blatant anachronisms) that *something* wiped out the entire technological and cultural knowledge base at some point--the people of the Fifth Age had to literally reinvent the wheel. So we can't fix the development of the longbow at a time after the Third Age any more than we can be sure the Numenoreans didn't attack Valinor in stealth bombers. >The largest orcs are described as "almost man-high." If an average orc tried >to use an English longbow, the end would be dragging on the ground, and even >though orc arms are long, he might not be able to make a full draw with it. >So -- most of the weapon's capabilities would be wasted. OK, I'll grant you that. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Message-ID: References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:33:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944328807 208.170.95.5 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:33:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:33:27 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > bluesbird@crosswinds.net (lurker@home) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented > >until our own age anyway. > > I don't think we can assume that. There are plenty of references in > /LotR/ to things that were invented much later: matches, for instance. > > So there's no reason longbows could not exist in Middle-earth. As to > whether Orcs were physically able to use them, that's certainly > debatable, but don't forget they were stronger than many Men. The Two Towers, p. 265: "If they were astonished at what they saw, their captors were even more astonished. Four tall Men stood there. Two had spears in their hands with broad bright heads. Two had great bows, almost of their own height, and great quivers of long green-feathered arrows." David Salo ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 Dec 1999 18:34:39 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991204133439.17910.00000034@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , "lurker@home" writes: >I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented >until our own age anyway. Is this really a valid argument? Let's face it, magic hasn't been invented yet nor had nice little seed cakes and tea time. Middle earth is a fantasy place where historical incongruities are not beyond conception. Even if Tolkien placed it at some point in our history, he also refered to that placing in time as "mythical time" as opposed to historical. To use at as an argument that something haddent been invented in our own prehistory seems to be a case of losing touch with reality. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Message-ID: References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> <6uu2lyfroe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 19:30:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944335800 208.170.95.5 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 13:30:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 13:30:00 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <6uu2lyfroe.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > BTW: Legolas reusing Orc arrows would be impossible if they are made > for short draw lengths. He would ram them into his fingers or be > reduced in draw length (and so power usage from his bow), and lose > his trained anchoring point (and so accuracy). This is (I guess) a good point; but Legolas' original bow seems to have been relatively compact, see FR:343, "Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow." But when Legolas left Lorien, Galadriel gave him "a bow such as the Galadhrim used, longer and stouter than the bows of Mirkwood, and strung with a string of elf-hair." When he uses it it is caled "the great bow of Lorien". When Legolas was looking for orc-arrows, he "found not a few that were undamaged and longer in the shaft than such arrows as the Orcs were accustomed to use." And as I pointed out already, the Rangers of Ithilien used long bows. David Salo ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 00:51:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944355061 24.30.175.94 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:51:01 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:51:01 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote in message ... >bluesbird@crosswinds.net (lurker@home) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>I think we can assume they weren't using longbows, which weren't invented >>until our own age anyway. > >I don't think we can assume that. There are plenty of references in >/LotR/ to things that were invented much later: matches, for instance. > >We had a thread about this just a few days ago. I hesitate to describe a >consensus on *any* thread in this group, but at least some of seemed to >feel that an in-story explanation could be inventions that existed then >but were forgotten sometime during the Fourth or later Ages and had to be >rediscovered. Gunpowder is another obvious example, both Gandalf's >fireworks and Saruman's explosives. Also catapults. > >So there's no reason longbows could not exist in Middle-earth. As to >whether Orcs were physically able to use them, that's certainly >debatable, but don't forget they were stronger than many Men. > That's true, we're talking faerie here, not history! --So, it can be whatever we want it to be..... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 04:36:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.75 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944368360 207.224.147.75 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:32:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:32:40 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , "lurker@home" wrote: > >That's true, we're talking faerie here, not history! > >--So, it can be whatever we want it to be..... It's Tolkien's story. It's whatever HE wants it to be. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 04:36:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.75 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944368360 207.224.147.75 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:32:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 22:32:40 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , "lurker@home" wrote: > >That's true, we're talking faerie here, not history! > >--So, it can be whatever we want it to be..... It's Tolkien's story. It's whatever HE wants it to be. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 05:39:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944372383 24.30.175.94 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:39:43 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:39:43 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net>... >In article , "lurker@home" wrote: >> >>That's true, we're talking faerie here, not history! >> >>--So, it can be whatever we want it to be..... > >It's Tolkien's story. It's whatever HE wants it to be. > He cacked. I'll take over now. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82cu8e$1b4_006@news.uswest.net> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk> <825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net> <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 05:46:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.75 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944372607 207.224.147.75 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:43:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 23:43:27 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , "lurker@home" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net>... >>It's Tolkien's story. It's whatever HE wants it to be. >> > >He cacked. I'll take over now. LOL! I think the Tolkien Estate will have a problem with that. :P -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Date: 5 Dec 1999 09:19:10 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 26 Message-ID: <82dame$lq6$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81vs3p$qv6$1@oden.abc.se> <3845B806.682B9F32@vossnet.co.uk><825flv$1pg_034@news.uswest.net> <3846EB91.C63A1AA2@arrakis.es> <826uq7$1eg_038@news.uswest.net><3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> <82cq3m$190_010@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : In article , "lurker@home" : wrote: : > : >That's true, we're talking faerie here, not history! : > : >--So, it can be whatever we want it to be..... : It's Tolkien's story. It's whatever HE wants it to be. This is exactly the sort of comment that would get this dufus Martinez thrown out of a seminar with Tolkien, if he could somehow time-warp back into one. Tolkien knew that the reader has to be free to interpret, and that the author himself is also an interpreter. But Martinez chooses to collect trivia to worship on the shrine of the Author, hoping somehow to partake of Tolkien's authority thereby. Pa' fucking 'thetic. --Rett ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: How long is a 'long bowshot'? Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 07 Dec 1999 08:44:41 GMT References: <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991207034441.21255.00000002@ngol02.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.cs.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail In article <3848EF4A.75607C2D@arrakis.es>, Javier Caselli writes: >True enough, but then I wonder why they called it "long bowshot", perhaps it >was because >the orcs had to tense(strain would be cmore correct??) their short bows to >the limit to get >the maximum range, and thus, reach the other side of the stream of Anduin. >Anyway you are >quite right about the orcs, except for the Uruk Hai, other orc races were to >short(and yet >probably strong enough) to use long bows, they would need a ladder to get to >the nesesary >height to use them! :-) I always imagined that Orcs might use composite bows of a Japanese style design: (Short on the bottom, and long on the top). Their great strength and long arms would give them excellent pull and draw. The shortness of their bows might limit the efficiency to which this energy would be put, but if one has the upper body strength of a Gorilla, one might not need extraordinary efficient bows. I figure orcs, on average use a shorter draw than elves, since their arrows are typically shorter. At least some, however, were long enough to be suitable for Legolas. A "long bow shot" could include any factor designed to improve range: aimed for maximum distance, longer draw, specially designed flight arrows, very strong orc, longer bow, composite design, sorcery enhancements. I have no problem imagining that Orcs could fire arrows much farther than your midieval archers could.