From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: What Year Is It? Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Nov 1999 03:59:29 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I've finally gotten around to putting shire reckoning dates on my 2000 calendar. Figuring the dates is easy once you know what date & time the summer solstice occurs, but what about the year? To have some fun, I'm asking for ideas as to apropriate corelations between our history and shire reckoning dates. My own thoughts include: 1. 1660 The year of the Protectorate ended and Charles II came to the throne = S.R. 1419 (3019 S.A.) the year of the return of the king. 2. 1918 the end of WW I = S.R. 1419 once again. I think WW I is more important to Tolkien's life than WWII so that why I don't go with 1945 3. The year of Tolkien's marraige to Edith (1916) = S.R. 1419 one more time. (Elessars marraige to Arwen) 4. For us U.S. citizens of European descent: 1607, the settlement of Jamestown, VA. the first permanent English settlement in the Americas = S.R. 1 5. 1930-1935? (pick-'em) Tolkien starts writing "The Hobbit" = 1341 the year of the unexpected party. Other ideas, please? PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Message-ID: References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 72 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:30:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 943821021 208.170.95.214 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:30:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:30:21 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo How about: 449, Anglo-Saxons come to England = TA 1601/SR 1: Arrival of the Hobbits in the Shire -> 1999 = SR 1551/4A 130 or 376, invasion of Huns = TA 1851/SR 251: Invasion of Wainriders -> 1999 = SR 1874/4A 453 or 476, Fall of the Western Roman Empire = TA 1975/SR 375: Fall of the North-kingdom of Arnor -> 1999 = SR 1898/4A 477 or 449, Anglo-Saxons come to England = TA 2510/SR 910: Rohirrim come to Rohan -> 1999 = SR 2460/4A 1039 or 800, Charlemagne becomes Holy Roman Emperor = TA 3019/SR 1419: Aragorn crowned king -> 1999 = SR 2618/4A 1197 or 829, Egbert becomes King of England = TA 1979/SR 379: Bucca becomes Thain of the Shire --> 1999 = SR 1549/4A 128? (Note that the first and last are nearly the same) In article <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) wrote: > I've finally gotten around to putting shire reckoning dates on my 2000 > calendar. Figuring the dates is easy once you know what date & time the summer > solstice occurs, but what about the year? > > To have some fun, I'm asking for ideas as to apropriate corelations between our > history and shire reckoning dates. My own thoughts include: > > 1. 1660 The year of the Protectorate ended and Charles II came to the throne = > S.R. 1419 (3019 S.A.) the year of the return of the king. > > 2. 1918 the end of WW I = S.R. 1419 once again. I think WW I is more > important to Tolkien's life than WWII so that why I don't go with 1945 > > 3. The year of Tolkien's marraige to Edith (1916) = S.R. 1419 one more time. > (Elessars marraige to Arwen) > > 4. For us U.S. citizens of European descent: 1607, the settlement of > Jamestown, VA. the first permanent English settlement in the Americas = S.R. 1 > > 5. 1930-1935? (pick-'em) Tolkien starts writing "The Hobbit" = 1341 the year of > the unexpected party. > > Other ideas, please? > > > > > PB > > "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that > die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal > out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:09:05 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 70 Message-ID: <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial53021.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 943973366 98636 195.34.53.21 (30 Nov 1999 14:49:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1999 14:49:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail David Salo eteecie: >449, Anglo-Saxons come to England = TA 1601/SR 1: Arrival of the Hobbits in >the Shire -> 1999 = SR 1551/4A 130 >376, invasion of Huns = TA 1851/SR 251: Invasion of Wainriders -> 1999 = SR >1874/4A 453 >476, Fall of the Western Roman Empire = TA 1975/SR 375: Fall of the >North-kingdom of Arnor -> 1999 = SR 1898/4A 477 >449, Anglo-Saxons come to England = TA 2510/SR 910: Rohirrim come to Rohan >-> 1999 = SR 2460/4A 1039 >800, Charlemagne becomes Holy Roman Emperor = TA 3019/SR 1419: Aragorn >crowned king -> 1999 = SR 2618/4A 1197 >829, Egbert becomes King of England = TA 1979/SR 379: Bucca becomes Thain >of the Shire --> 1999 = SR 1549/4A 128? > >(Note that the first and last are nearly the same) I think this isn't possible to make such compilation. The ME is a old history an that isn't right. That text about 'Earendel' that Tolkien find in anglo-saxon manuscript was about very old history. Namaarie Envinywen Heerince > >In article <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com>, >pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) wrote: > >> I've finally gotten around to putting shire reckoning dates on my 2000 >> calendar. Figuring the dates is easy once you know what date & time the >summer >> solstice occurs, but what about the year? >> >> To have some fun, I'm asking for ideas as to apropriate corelations >between our >> history and shire reckoning dates. My own thoughts include: >> >> 1. 1660 The year of the Protectorate ended and Charles II came to the >throne = >> S.R. 1419 (3019 S.A.) the year of the return of the king. >> >> 2. 1918 the end of WW I = S.R. 1419 once again. I think WW I is more >> important to Tolkien's life than WWII so that why I don't go with 1945 >> >> 3. The year of Tolkien's marraige to Edith (1916) = S.R. 1419 one more time. >> (Elessars marraige to Arwen) >> >> 4. For us U.S. citizens of European descent: 1607, the settlement of >> Jamestown, VA. the first permanent English settlement in the Americas = S.R. 1 >> >> 5. 1930-1935? (pick-'em) Tolkien starts writing "The Hobbit" = 1341 the >year of >> the unexpected party. >> >> Other ideas, please? >> >> >> >> >> PB >> >> "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And >some that >> die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal >> out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Message-ID: References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:54:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944002481 208.170.95.150 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:54:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:54:41 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" wrote: > I think this isn't possible to make such compilation. The ME is a old > history an that isn't right. That text about 'Earendel' that Tolkien find in > anglo-saxon manuscript was about very old history. The point of the exercise was to allow someone who was setting up a "Shire Calendar" that was coincident with our current time-reckoning (which is not too difficult, since the length of year is the same!) to put a date on it which was not entirely arbitrary. That's all. DS ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 00:02:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.77 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944006364 207.224.147.77 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:59:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:59:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: >In article <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" > wrote: > >> I think this isn't possible to make such compilation. The ME is a old >> history an that isn't right. That text about 'Earendel' that Tolkien find in >> anglo-saxon manuscript was about very old history. > > The point of the exercise was to allow someone who was setting up a >"Shire Calendar" that was coincident with our current time-reckoning (which >is not too difficult, since the length of year is the same!) to put a date >on it which was not entirely arbitrary. That's all. In 1958 Tolkien told Rhona Beare he imagined "the gap to be about 6,000 years" (letter 211). Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 years. So people who want to relate Shire Reckoning to our own system would arrive at a close approximation by adding 1421 to 6041. Hence, we're in S.R. 7462, give or take a few years. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:02:05 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 22 Message-ID: <823knp$qkd$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial53224.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 944068155 27277 195.34.53.224 (1 Dec 1999 17:09:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 17:09:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail David Salo eteecie >In article <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" > wrote: >> I think this isn't possible to make such compilation. The ME is a old >> history an that isn't right. That text about 'Earendel' that Tolkien find in >> anglo-saxon manuscript was about very old history. > The point of the exercise was to allow someone who was setting up a >"Shire Calendar" that was coincident with our current time-reckoning (which >is not too difficult, since the length of year is the same!) to put a date >on it which was not entirely arbitrary. That's all. Oh, sorry. We probably could found some point of comparing the dates if we'll find some significant astronomicall event (such as sun eclipse) by wich we could easily caculate the age. But JRRT don't mention any (or i don't notice 8)). Unfortunately. Namaarie Envinywen Heerince ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:05:16 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 29 Message-ID: <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial53224.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 944068157 27277 195.34.53.224 (1 Dec 1999 17:09:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 17:09:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.rt.ru!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Michael Martinez eteecie<821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> ... >>> I think this isn't possible to make such compilation. The ME is a old >>> history an that isn't right. That text about 'Earendel' that Tolkien find in >>> anglo-saxon manuscript was about very old history. >> The point of the exercise was to allow someone who was setting up a >>"Shire Calendar" that was coincident with our current time-reckoning (which >>is not too difficult, since the length of year is the same!) to put a date >>on it which was not entirely arbitrary. That's all. >In 1958 Tolkien told Rhona Beare he imagined "the gap to be about 6,000 years" >(letter 211). Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 >years. That is only a hypothesis date,. it is only _about_... > So people who want to relate Shire Reckoning to our own system would >arrive at a close approximation by adding 1421 to 6041. Hence, we're in S.R. >7462, give or take a few years. The numder of 6000 years isn't precise. I suppose Namaarie Envinywen Heerince ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Dec 1999 15:04:05 GMT References: <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991201100405.14368.00000164@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >In 1958 Tolkien told Rhona Beare he imagined "the gap to be about 6,000 >years" >(letter 211). Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 >years. So people who want to relate Shire Reckoning to our own system would >arrive at a close approximation by adding 1421 to 6041. Hence, we're in S.R. > >7462, give or take a few years. > > > Interesting, but not quite what I was going for. If I were to do that I'd just say that it was 1999/2000 Sixth or Seventh Age. (I figure that the coming of saviors is a big Age ending deal for Tolkien: The Valar, The Men out of the West, The return of the King, and he was so Catholic (& Christian) that, IMHO, the current age would have been the Christian Era as far as he was concerned. Be that as it may, what I was going for was something to add a touch of Tolkien into my worlds history & thereby make it a more relevant calendar. I'm just looking for a bridge to make the my years relevant to the source of the calendar I'm using and have some fun at the same time. I've always liked the Hobbit attitude that made them want to have the same calendar every year. The creation of midsummer's day & overlithe as days outside of the normal weeks makes wonderful sense to me but doesn't work in a world whose religious foundations for calendar mandated every seventh day off. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> References: <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <19991201100405.14368.00000164@ngol06.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 36 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:36:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944065968 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:32:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:32:48 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991201100405.14368.00000164@ngol06.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: >In article <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>In 1958 Tolkien told Rhona Beare he imagined "the gap to be about 6,000 >>years" >>(letter 211). Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 >>years. So people who want to relate Shire Reckoning to our own system would >>arrive at a close approximation by adding 1421 to 6041. Hence, we're in S.R. >> >>7462, give or take a few years. >> >Interesting, but not quite what I was going for. If I were to do that I'd just >say that it was 1999/2000 Sixth or Seventh Age. (I figure that the coming of >saviors is a big Age ending deal for Tolkien: The Valar, The Men out of the >West, The return of the King, and he was so Catholic (& Christian) that, IMHO, >the current age would have been the Christian Era as far as he was concerned. There are no ages in Shire Reckoning. However, Tolkien implies (in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH) that the Fourth Age lasted maybe 2500 years after Aragorn's time, so that would make it maybe 2600 years long. Hence, it ended sometime around 1442 BCE. That is close to the time of the Exodus from Egypt. I think the next most likely candidate for the end of an age would be circa 500 CE, about the time that formal authority ended in the western Roman empire. That would allow the Sixth Age to end with World War II, and we would therefore be at the beginning of the Seventh Age. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:24:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944068888 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:21:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:21:28 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" wrote: >Michael Martinez eteecie<821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> ... >>Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 >>years. > >That is only a hypothesis date,. it is only _about_... That's right. You repeated what I said PRECISELY. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Piotr Auksztulewicz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Date: 1 Dec 1999 19:00:40 +0100 Organization: Politechnika Slaska, Gliwice Lines: 17 Message-ID: <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/800)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.ebone.net!news.ipartners.pl!news.man.poznan.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" wrote: >>Michael Martinez eteecie<821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> ... >>>Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 >>>years. >> >>That is only a hypothesis date,. it is only _about_... > That's right. You repeated what I said PRECISELY. Yes, Michael, but it just seems silly to add up 41 and 6000 when the latter is doubtful and can mean anything from, let's say, 5500 to 6500... I think this is what Envinywen tried to say... -- Piotr Auksztulewicz piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl Silesian Tech. Univ. Computer Center, 16 Akademicka St., Gliwice, Poland ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:02:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.232 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944081922 207.224.149.232 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:58:42 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:58:42 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>, Piotr Auksztulewicz wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> In article <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" > wrote: >>>Michael Martinez eteecie<821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> ... >>>>Since it's now 41 years later, the gap would be about 6041 >>>>years. >>> >>>That is only a hypothesis date,. it is only _about_... > >> That's right. You repeated what I said PRECISELY. > >Yes, Michael, but it just seems silly to add up 41 and 6000 when >the latter is doubtful and can mean anything from, let's say, >5500 to 6500... I think this is what Envinywen tried to say... I don't get the impression that Tolkien meant 5500 to 6500 years. So I don't feel silly adding 41 years to the estimate. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 72 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 05:01:12 GMT References: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991202000112.11671.00000056@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Interesting, but not quite what I was going for. If I were to do that I'd >just >>say that it was 1999/2000 Sixth or Seventh Age. (I figure that the coming >of >>saviors is a big Age ending deal for Tolkien: The Valar, The Men out of >the >>West, The return of the King, and he was so Catholic (& Christian) that, >IMHO, >>the current age would have been the Christian Era as far as he was >concerned. > >There are no ages in Shire Reckoning. However, Tolkien implies (in THE >PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH) that the Fourth Age lasted maybe 2500 years after >Aragorn's time, so that would make it maybe 2600 years long. Hence, it ended > >sometime around 1442 BCE. That is close to the time of the Exodus from >Egypt. > >I think the next most likely candidate for the end of an age would be circa >500 CE, about the time that formal authority ended in the western Roman >empire. > >That would allow the Sixth Age to end with World War II, and we would >therefore be at the beginning of the Seventh Age. > > There is no criticism meant in the following: I am aware that there are no ages in Shire reckoning but I was just pointing out, as the one who started this thread and looking for some input, but was just trying to point out that if I wanted to just pinpoint Tolkiens mythical time time directly onto our time 2000 Sixth or Seventh age (I'll take your citations and agree with it being the Sixth) would work for me. Your pointing out that the Sixth Age/Seventh Age crossover seems to coincide with the Exodus cuts in very well with my thoughts on saviour themed age changes, therefore I'd probably stick with the Christ's birth as the next Age change, simply because I cant think of a historical saviour type figure who woudl be more important to Tolkien than Jesus of Nazareth. Then going back Moses seems a good choice for second. I cant think of any Saviour figure at he time of the fall of the Roman Empire. (I am aware that this makes the Fifth Age inconsistently short, but once your dealing with real history it hard to finagle with the dates and I like the thematic unity of my picks. Purely MHO) The fact that it would seem to be the Sixth Age also works nicely because that would make the Seventh Age the Fulfilment of Tolkiens religious beliefs, the second coming, &c., and he does seem to be aware of the numeralogical significance of the number seven being at times associated with perfection. (Seven ships, Seven stones, Seven sons of Feanor, not that they as individuals seemed perfect, mind you.) Thanks for the input, one and all and if you've got more ideas, Greeet! I don't need to nail this down until the 22 of December. Which brings up one final note: It has come to my attention through the Old Farmers Almanac that my days might be flawed as well. My original thought was to place Midsummers day on the Summer Solstice and then I noticed that in the UK at least, Midsummers is actually June 24, it being considered the middle of the planting season. While technically this might be correct, in the end it will be my calendar, only based on a springboard provided by Tolkien, and I just feel that the my calendar should acknoledge the various seasons in some way. Form follows function and all that. Also why do seasons begin and end on equinoxes and solstices, does anybody else ever wonder why Winter doesn't straddle the solstice half before and half after? Sorry, just rambling now. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 05:01:14 GMT References: <823knp$qkd$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991202000114.11671.00000058@ngol03.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <823knp$qkd$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" writes: >Oh, sorry. We probably could found some point of comparing the dates if >we'll find some significant astronomicall event (such as sun eclipse) by >wich we could easily caculate the age. But JRRT don't mention any (or i >don't notice 8)). Unfortunately. Nothing specific but he does say that non of the years pertinant to the War of the Ring had an Overlithe in them. Thats about all there is to go on aside from the date & fullness of the moon noted by Sam & company after leaving Lorien. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825gdt$1pg_040@news.uswest.net> References: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> <19991202000112.11671.00000056@ngol03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 59 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:07:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944129078 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:04:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 04:04:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991202000112.11671.00000056@ngol03.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: >I am aware that there are no ages in Shire reckoning but I was just pointing >out, as the one who started this thread and looking for some input, but was >just trying to point out that if I wanted to just pinpoint Tolkiens mythical >time time directly onto our time 2000 Sixth or Seventh age (I'll take your >citations and agree with it being the Sixth) would work for me. Your pointing >out that the Sixth Age/Seventh Age crossover seems to coincide with the Exodus >cuts in very well with my thoughts on saviour themed age changes, therefore I'd >probably stick with the Christ's birth as the next Age change, simply because I >cant think of a historical saviour type figure who woudl be more important to >Tolkien than Jesus of Nazareth. Then going back Moses seems a good choice for >second. I cant think of any Saviour figure at he time of the fall of the Roman >Empire. (I am aware that this makes the Fifth Age inconsistently short, but >once your dealing with real history it hard to finagle with the dates and I >like the thematic unity of my picks. Purely MHO) Tolkien's ages don't end with births, but rather with catastrophic events. That is why the birth of Christ seems inappropriate to me. He seems to imply that Eldarion's line comes to an end at the end of the Fifth Age (not the descendants of Luthien -- just the dynasty ruling Arnor and Gondor, or whatever is left at that time). Hence, because the Exodus was catastrophic for the Egyptians and the Canaanites who were displaced, destroyed, or conquered by the Hebrews, that seems a reasonable stopping point. The next major catastrophe after at least a thousand years is the demise of the western Roman empire. Europe underwent radical changes, and the weakened empire was unable to hold back the Arabic invasions which came "early in the Sixth Age". World War II, I think, also counts as an age-ending catastrophe because the balance of world power shifted dramatically and culturally America suddenly rose to the top of the heap. >The fact that it would seem to be the Sixth Age also works nicely because that >would make the Seventh Age the Fulfilment of Tolkiens religious beliefs, the >second coming, &c., and he does seem to be aware of the numeralogical >significance of the number seven being at times associated with perfection. >(Seven ships, Seven stones, Seven sons of Feanor, not that they as individuals >seemed perfect, mind you.) Seven is not particularly important to Tolkien. He uses three a great deal (three Silmarils, three unsullied Rings, three Elven peoples, three houses of the Edain, three ages of the Sun before Elrond departs, three ancient Ents, etc.). He also uses two a great deal (Arnor and Gondor, Elrond and Elros, Elladan and Elrohir, Isildur and Anarion, Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, Anorien and Ithilien, the two lines of the burial mounds for the Kings of Rohan, the two armies of Gondor, etc., etc.). And he uses five a great deal, too: five major areas of Gondor, Lebennin (five rivers), five Elven realms in Beleriand (Hithlum, Doriath, Nargothrond, the March of Maedhros, and Turgon's realm), five great battles, five wizards, battle of five armies, etc., etc. So, my point is that seven is not a particularly special number to Tolkien. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 93 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 14:35:00 GMT References: <825gdt$1pg_040@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991202093500.03574.00000037@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <825gdt$1pg_040@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Tolkien's ages don't end with births, but rather with catastrophic events. >That is why the birth of Christ seems inappropriate to me. He seems to imply >that Eldarion's line comes to an end at the end of the Fifth Age (not the >descendants of Luthien -- just the dynasty ruling Arnor and Gondor, or >whatever is left at that time). > >Hence, because the Exodus was catastrophic for the Egyptians and the >Canaanites who were displaced, destroyed, or conquered by the Hebrews, that >seems a reasonable stopping point. The next major catastrophe after at least >a thousand years is the demise of the western Roman empire. Europe underwent >radical changes, and the weakened empire was unable to hold back the Arabic >invasions which came "early in the Sixth Age". A nice point from the other side of the coin. What was I view as a Saviour Event (for the Isrealites) can also be viewed as a catastrophic one (for the Egyptians) & the two choices we've mentioned for the next Event (Christs birth & the Fall of the Roman Empire) could, by some, be said tho be the begining and end of one long social catastrophe that's hard normally to see as one event because of the time span involved. hence the two different dates arrived at for this one. IMO the Christ event is more significant to Tolkiens personal life (not that either of us know his mind on this,) and that's why I made it my choice. Further while the same duality exists at the end of the First age (Saviour=Valar vs Catastrophe=changing of the World) & the Second Age (Saviour=Elendil & Sons/Last Alliance vs. Catastrophe=Downfall of Numenor) the Catastrophes seem to have a negative effect on the Inhabitants of Middle-Earth (geological change can do that) & to have been brought about by outside powers. The Third Age's catastrophe is the physical destruction of Barad-Dur which IMHO isn't close to being big enough for me, although I'm not demanding that the event be Huge. There is still the Saviour Event (Return of the King) though. Your also right about the birth thing, if you consider the birth of the Christ child as merely that, a birth. Most Christians, of all shapes and sizes, would be offended at the *merely* though. I personally have always wondered why the birth got center stage rather than the crucifixion, which seemed a more important & influential act than the birth, but sometimes you just go with what your given. > >World War II, I think, also counts as an age-ending catastrophe because the >balance of world power shifted dramatically and culturally America suddenly >rose to the top of the heap. A good point considering how it ties into this developing duality theory, but once again, to tie it into significance with Tolkien, The Great War would be a better choice on my part, although some historians consider the two wars the same one on a sociological/world stage level. I'm not knocking the idea as a valid view though. > >>The fact that it would seem to be the Sixth Age also works nicely because >that >>would make the Seventh Age the Fulfilment of Tolkiens religious beliefs, the >>second coming, &c., and he does seem to be aware of the numeralogical >>significance of the number seven being at times associated with perfection. >>(Seven ships, Seven stones, Seven sons of Feanor, not that they as >individuals >>seemed perfect, mind you.) > >Seven is not particularly important to Tolkien. He uses three a great deal >(three Silmarils, three unsullied Rings, three Elven peoples, three houses of >the Edain, three ages of the Sun before Elrond departs, three ancient >Ents, etc.). He also uses two a great deal (Arnor and Gondor, Elrond and >Elros, Elladan and Elrohir, Isildur and Anarion, Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, >Anorien and Ithilien, the two lines of the burial mounds for the Kings of >Rohan, the two armies of Gondor, etc., etc.). And he uses five a great deal, >too: five major areas of Gondor, Lebennin (five rivers), five Elven realms in >Beleriand (Hithlum, Doriath, Nargothrond, the March of Maedhros, and Turgon's >realm), five great battles, five wizards, battle of five armies, etc., etc. >So, my point is that seven is not a particularly special number to Tolkien. > A very valid point and I saw it coming when I wrote that. It's not so much that Seven has exclusive rights, Five and Three do figure prominently, it's just that Six and Eight don't, and I think we can agree that it's not the Eighth Age, so between Six and Seven I go for Seven. Also Three & Five have there own numerological significances being prime whereas Four and Six are not as prominent numerologically, so Seven just seems neater & more artistic to me. > By the way Mr. Martinez, I enjoy having this relatively calm dialog (diagraph?) with you. It's a pleasant change. Thanks. Breathe Peace PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8266j6$194_018@news.uswest.net> References: <825gdt$1pg_040@news.uswest.net> <19991202093500.03574.00000037@ngol07.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 43 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:26:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.114 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944151774 209.181.118.114 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:22:54 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:22:54 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <19991202093500.03574.00000037@ngol07.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: >Further while the same duality exists at the end of the First age >(Saviour=Valar vs Catastrophe=changing of the World) & the Second Age >(Saviour=Elendil & Sons/Last Alliance vs. Catastrophe=Downfall of Numenor) the >Catastrophes seem to have a negative effect on the Inhabitants of Middle-Earth >(geological change can do that) & to have been brought about by outside >powers. The Third Age's catastrophe is the physical destruction of Barad-Dur >which IMHO isn't close to being big enough for me, although I'm not demanding >that the event be Huge. There is still the Saviour Event (Return of the King) >though. The catastrophe is not the destruction of Barad-dur, but the War of the Ring, and Elendil and his sons were not outside forces. >>World War II, I think, also counts as an age-ending catastrophe because the >>balance of world power shifted dramatically and culturally America suddenly >>rose to the top of the heap. > >A good point considering how it ties into this developing duality theory, but >once again, to tie it into significance with Tolkien, The Great War would be a >better choice on my part, although some historians consider the two wars the >same one on a sociological/world stage level. I'm not knocking the idea as a >valid view though. Tolkien would not have viewed World War I as more significant than World War II when he was writing THE LORD OF THE RINGS. For one thing, he had two sons in the military, and for another England was under direct attack for part of the war. The world was clearly in greater danger of being altered significantly by World War II's outcome, just as Europe and the Mediterranean's world was significantly altered by the demise of the western Roman empire (but not by the birth of Christ). An age ends with the overthrow of a great power: 1st Age, Morgoth; 2nd Age, Sauron; 3rd Age, Sauron; 4th Age (guessing) Arnor and Gondor; 5th Age, Egypt (guessing -- from the perspective of the Hebrews); 6th Age (guessing), western Roman empire; 7th Age, Nazi Germany. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: sash.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 2 Dec 1999 20:03:56 GMT X-Trace: 2 Dec 1999 20:03:56 GMT, sash.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!server3.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >I don't get the impression that Tolkien meant 5500 to 6500 years. So I don't >feel silly adding 41 years to the estimate. Well, you certainly look silly doing it. -- Robert ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Distribution: world Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Message-ID: References: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> <19991202000112.11671.00000056@ngol03.aol.com> <3846fcc7.12009406@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 99 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 20:26:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944166397 208.170.95.54 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:26:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:26:37 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <3846fcc7.12009406@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de>, Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de wrote: > On 02 Dec 1999 05:01:12 GMT, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB > wasjustPaul) wrote: > >Also why do seasons begin and end on > >equinoxes and solstices, does anybody else ever wonder why Winter doesn't > >straddle the solstice half before and half after? Sorry, just rambling now. > > Yes I wondered about that, too. Probably it is because the Earth takes > time to cool down / heat up, so the effects of the daylenght in > weather patterns takes some time to manifest. That's basically it. Where I live, the wintry weather starts when the air that's been chilled in the Arctic Zone starts to move south. There's really no connection with the equinoxes and solstices; the summer solstice is the longest day of the year, not the hottest; the winter solstice is the shortest day, not the coldest. As it happens, where I live the onset of spring (as indicated by the warming of the air and the melting of surface ice) happens almost exactly on the spring equinox each year; but this is really just a coincidence. If I lived in Miami it would take place a lot earlier (if there were any winter at all!); if I lived in Yellowknife, it would take place a lot later. Be that as it may be, "Mid-year's Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice." (Appendix D). I don't think that history can actually be divided neatly into "Ages". Certainly there are chronological epochs, between which there are great changes in political, economic, and religious structures; but assigning their borders to a single year is nearly impossible. Consider "the Middle Ages"; various dates have been given for their onset: 330, 375, 407, 476, 550, 642, 751, 800, 1066, 1307; and various dates have been given for their end: 1216, 1453, 1485, 1492, 1517, 1603, 1648. Which may explain some (though not all) of the confusion over the question of "Was Middle-earth medieval?" And these dates apply _only_ to Europe, particularly Western Europe, sometimes exclusively to England. In Middle-earth the change of Age is marked by the following things: I. The downfall of a Titanic evil power (Morgoth II, Sauron III, Sauron IV) II. The erection of a new kingdom (Numenor and Gil-galad II, Gondor and Arnor III, the Reunited Kingdom IV) III. The establishment of a new calendar and epoch-reckoning. In the world of history, things are not so neat. We have no Titanic evil powers; the closest we can get are the fall of great empires; for instance, the conquest of Darius by Alexander might be considered the mark of a change of Age. But it wasn't the beginning of a chronological epoch; the closest thing was the "Seleucid Era", established by one of Alexander's successors. And there are rarely empires which fall with such a crash and bang as the Persian Empire; the Roman Empire, by contrast, shrivelled away gradually. Would the end of the Roman Empire be 476? 1204? 1453? The erection of a new kingdom: well, we've mentioned Alexander's kingdom, which promptly broke up upon his death; then there was the much longer-lasting Roman Empire. But when was that established? 46 BCE, with Julius Caesar? 30 BCE, with the deaths of Antony and Cleopatra? 27 BCE, when Augustus took the title of Imperator? The latter is usually given, even though the event was purely symbolic! Then there are even less significant states, like the "Holy Roman Empire" nominally founded by an unwilling Charlemagne on Dec. 25, 800, but in fact established as a polity some years before that, had totally broken up by 888, and was replaced by a much weaker "Holy Roman Empire" in 962, which did not fall until 1806. I suppose this -- along with the French Revolution (1789) or the fall of Napoleon (1815) could mark the end of an Age, certainly an important social leap for Europe and the Europe-influenced world, as significant in its way as World Wars I and II. The former had great political significance (it replaced a world in which autocratic kingdoms were the norm by one in which anyone who was anybody claimed to be a republican) but did little to change the balance of power; the latter drastically altered the balance of power, but left political norms (as of the end of WWI) largely intact. And aren't the European revolutions of 1989 just as likely to be seen as the end of an age by later generations? As for new calendars, they are frequently imposed long after the events that inspire them. The modern "Christian Era" epoch begins with an imaginary birthdate applied to a person who had lived more than five centuries before the epoch was invented! It might have been more reasonable to make the first year of such an epoch coincidental with the first year of the reckoning then in use (the Julian calendar) -- i.e., 45 BCE. But the idea of a connection between _epoch_ and _reckoning_ is not as common in our world as in Tolkien's. The next most common epoch in the world today is that of the Muslim Calendar, "Anno Hegirae"; it dates from 622 CE, but has more years in it because the Muslim year is only about 354 days long, and bears no relation to the solar or seasonal year. Then there is the Jewish calendar, which makes this year 5760; and there are of course various Indian, Japanese, and Chinese epochs. There's the French Revolutionary Calendar, beginning in 1792; and the little-known era of American Independence, beginning in 1776. Which one is the reckoning for "our Age"? I must say that, giving some leeway for inexactness, the coincidence of the beginning of the Christian Era at the end of 1 BCE with the beginning of the Julian system of reckoning in 45 BCE, the foundation of the Roman Empire c. 30 BCE, and the inauguration of the principal European (and now world) religion c. 30 CE, certainly makes it not unsuitable for the beginning of an Age. Of course other dates could be cited. In practical terms, however, we're kind of stuck with this one, despite all its absurdities and contradictions. ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 21:36:33 GMT References: <19991202093500.03574.00000037@ngol07.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991202163633.25162.00000069@ng-ck1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.ruhrgebiet.individual.net!news.augsburg.net!u-2.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >By the way Mr. Martinez, I enjoy having this relatively calm dialog >(diagraph?) >with you. It's a pleasant change. Thanks. Also, I don't think you've given any input on the original purpose for this thread. Do you have any ideas for relevant correlations between history and Tolkiens history? Note in terms of how Tolkien thought they intersected, but more in the vein of the examples in the original post. I think you might be a person to come up with some interesting one-to-one connections. Breathe Peace PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: arain02@FSUNI.rz.uni-passau.de (Karim Arain) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:13:58 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3846fcc7.12009406@nntpserver.rz.uni-passau.de> References: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> <19991202000112.11671.00000056@ngol03.aol.com> Reply-To: Karim.Arain@uni-passau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: news.rz.uni-passau.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.231.41.167 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!newsfeed.tli.de!noris.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!news.rz.uni-passau.de!132.231.41.167 On 02 Dec 1999 05:01:12 GMT, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: [SNIP] >Also why do seasons begin and end on >equinoxes and solstices, does anybody else ever wonder why Winter doesn't >straddle the solstice half before and half after? Sorry, just rambling now. Yes I wondered about that, too. Probably it is because the Earth takes time to cool down / heat up, so the effects of the daylenght in weather patterns takes some time to manifest. Ciao. Karim -- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <826vck$1eg_050@news.uswest.net> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:29:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.178 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944177164 207.224.148.178 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:26:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:26:04 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>I don't get the impression that Tolkien meant 5500 to 6500 years. So I don't >>feel silly adding 41 years to the estimate. > >Well, you certainly look silly doing it. I see you took my flame bait and have mercilessly vented upon me all the rage that I have secretly motivated you with. For my next mind control trick, you will post apologies to everyone in the news group for lowering your guard and letting me control you that way. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:54:59 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 29 Message-ID: <13347-3848C8D3-243@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQq6iLKSOq3BPchH+GxA3AFU8VsYAIUIA/mrsbx7W5hs03Zj41fLa9aJuE= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >>I figure that the coming of saviors is a >>big Age ending deal for Tolkien: >>and he was so Catholic (& Christian) >>that >I think the next most likely candidate for >the end of an age would be circa 500 >CE, about the time that formal authority >ended in the western Roman empire. Perhaps, but considering the "savior" theme that the earlier poster mentioned, wouldn't either the birth or death of Christ be a much more logical cut-off point? After all, this is the very basis for our own calendar, and that would probably fit in better with Tolkien's religious views on the subject. >That would allow the Sixth Age to end >with World War II, and we would >therefore be at the beginning of the >Seventh Age. That seems like a good date, but one could also consider the end of the Cold War to be a significant enough event to qualify as the end of an Age. Didn't Tolkien say this was the near the end of the Sixth or beginning of the Seventh or something? --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82bl4n$168_034@news.uswest.net> References: <823ipl$1a8_026@news.uswest.net> <13347-3848C8D3-243@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 47 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 18:05:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.230 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944330506 207.224.149.230 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 12:01:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 12:01:46 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <13347-3848C8D3-243@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>I figure that the coming of saviors is a >>>big Age ending deal for Tolkien: >>and he was so Catholic (& >Christian) >>that > >>I think the next most likely candidate for >>the end of an age would be circa 500 >>CE, about the time that formal authority >>ended in the western Roman empire. > >Perhaps, but considering the "savior" theme that the earlier poster >mentioned, wouldn't either the birth or death of Christ be a much more >logical cut-off point? After all, this is the very basis for our own >calendar, and that would probably fit in better with Tolkien's religious >views on the subject. So what? Nothing happened. No great empires collapsed. No cultures were changed. No one started anything new (Jesus' ministry began years later, and he was probably born circa 4 BCE anyway). It makes no sense to end an age with 1 BCE. Tolkien's ages in the calendar of the Sun don't end that way. >>That would allow the Sixth Age to end >>with World War II, and we would >>therefore be at the beginning of the >>Seventh Age. > >That seems like a good date, but one could also consider the end of the >Cold War to be a significant enough event to qualify as the end of an >Age. Didn't Tolkien say this was the near the end of the Sixth or >beginning of the Seventh or something? Tolkien never lived to see the end of the cold war, and yes he said we were at the end of the Sixth or the Beginning of the Seventh Age. It could have gone either way for him. World War II is much more like the great wars that ended the first three ages, however. The fourth and fifth ages couldn't end with such immense catastrophes, but they probably would not have ended with a sputter. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 Dec 1999 19:34:43 GMT References: <82bl4n$168_034@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991204143443.18258.00000196@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <82bl4n$168_034@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >So what? Nothing happened. No great empires collapsed. No cultures were >changed. No one started anything new (Jesus' ministry began years later, and > >he was probably born circa 4 BCE anyway). It makes no sense to end an age >with 1 BCE. Tolkien's ages in the calendar of the Sun don't end that way. Yes, your points are well taken, Mr. Martinez. But, IMHO, you are disregarding that Tolkien the Catholic would almost certainly consider the start of the Christian Era as a Very Great Change. That the Christian Era got the dates wrong would not concern him to much, (Moving the year for his own purposes would not neccessarily be beyond him,) but the actual event would be of much importance. As I mentioned earlier, I would have pick the Christ Event (pick your own specific year) as an event of Era changing importance. In Christian Theology, the Kingdom of God moved into it's final preparatory stage and only waits for the second coming. That's pretty big, even if the individual event that marked it is fairly small. > >snip< >> >>That seems like a good date, but one could also consider the end of the >>Cold War to be a significant enough event to qualify as the end of an >>Age. Didn't Tolkien say this was the near the end of the Sixth or >>beginning of the Seventh or something? > >Tolkien never lived to see the end of the cold war, and yes he said we were >at >the end of the Sixth or the Beginning of the Seventh Age. It could have gone > >either way for him. > >World War II is much more like the great wars that ended the first three >ages, >however. The fourth and fifth ages couldn't end with such immense >catastrophes, but they probably would not have ended with a sputter. > You have valid points here as well, but while The Great War was not as great as WWII, once again it probably was more important to Tolkien personally. He fought in it, he knew many who died in it, and England as a Nation was so devistated in terms of casualties that Tolkien and his contempories are refered to as "The Lost Generation." the mythology in general, and even the Lord of the Rings in specific, were started, though not finished before WWII, and IMO Tolkien probably had a sense of what age it was in those early formative years. Finally, it is odd that I am debating when the Sixth Age ended, when, if I follow my own train of reasoning, giving Tolkien (and his religious beliefs in particular) weight when trying to figure this one out, I'd opt for the Sixth Age to still be going on and imagine that the Seventh would start with the Second Coming or the end of Armageddon. Breathe Peace PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <826vck$1eg_050@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: cadnam.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <384ab4c2@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 5 Dec 1999 18:53:54 GMT X-Trace: 5 Dec 1999 18:53:54 GMT, cadnam.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >I see you took my flame bait and have mercilessly vented upon me all the rage >that I have secretly motivated you with. For my next mind control trick, you >will post apologies to everyone in the news group for lowering your guard and >letting me control you that way. You admit to being a troll, then? -- Robert ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82eekj$3gg_002@news.uswest.net> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <826vck$1eg_050@news.uswest.net> <384ab4c2@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 19:32:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.204 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944422147 209.181.118.204 (Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:29:07 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:29:07 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <384ab4c2@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >>I see you took my flame bait and have mercilessly vented upon me all the rage >>that I have secretly motivated you with. For my next mind control trick, you >>will post apologies to everyone in the news group for lowering your guard and >>letting me control you that way. > >You admit to being a troll, then? Reread the above. Carefully. Focus on the mind control part. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <826vck$1eg_050@news.uswest.net> <384ab4c2@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <82eekj$3gg_002@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: cadnam.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <384ad1a3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 5 Dec 1999 20:57:07 GMT X-Trace: 5 Dec 1999 20:57:07 GMT, cadnam.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >Reread the above. Carefully. Focus on the mind control part. Seems your little mind control trick didn't work, and better, you finally admitted you were a troll. -- Robert ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82evtn$1as_020@news.uswest.net> References: <19991126225929.10270.00000010@ngol08.aol.com> <820o5l$30ac$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <821oiv$17o_026@news.uswest.net> <823kns$qkd$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> <823lku$1a8_058@news.uswest.net> <823no8$csb$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <8242c8$1bc_006@news.uswest.net> <3846d0ac@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <826vck$1eg_050@news.uswest.net> <384ab4c2@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <82eekj$3gg_002@news.uswest.net> <384ad1a3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 00:27:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.205 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944439846 209.181.118.205 (Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:24:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:24:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <384ad1a3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >>Reread the above. Carefully. Focus on the mind control part. > >Seems your little mind control trick didn't work, and better, you finally >admitted you were a troll. Nope. It appears you're just interested in starting a flame war. Why is that? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What Year Is It? Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Dec 1999 19:18:18 GMT References: <384ad1a3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991208141818.21584.00000049@ngol05.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Alright then. After looking at the various ideas posted, from Mr. Salo & Mr. Martinez as well as myself, I've gone with.... It is currenlty 18 Foreyule, 399 P.S.R. (Pauline Shire Reckoning) After looking at all the date equivalents, and liking some for various aesthetic reasons, I've gone with this date for a more practical reason. The leap years will always be the same as in gregorian reckoning. Why 1600 years difference? because, by chance, the Shire was founded 1600years after the start of the Third Age, since that gap allows me to keep the practical, year to year workings of the calendar fairly simple, as opposed to some odd formula requiring heavy mathematics (like addition and subtraction) before figuring out whether a particular year P.S.R. is the same as a century year. Of the suggestions other than my own, I liked Mr. Salo's ideas equating Anglo-Saxon events to Middle Earth events. (A-Ss come to Eng. = Arrival of Hobbits in the Shire, and A-Ss come to Eng. = Rohirrim come to Rohan) I even myself went as far as to consider a general date for the Deluge (per I Asimov's GT the Bible as a ref.) as equating to the Fall of Numenor, but the first half is to iffy and the second half pushes the date to some thing like 2800+/- or 3400+/- depending on which date is used & I decided I'd prefer a smaller date to work with. Mr. Martinez's choice of 7462 S.R. based on Tolkien's letter's was too literally accurate for me to justify as truely fun. It would also require the mathimatical finnagling I discover a distaste for and I could not justify the +/- he allowed for to give me so much leeway as to make it either 7200 or 7600. The only detail I have not settled on as a reformation of my own, is whether or not to allow Overlithe to occur before or after Midsummer's Day, in order to allow Mid-summer to occur as much as possible on the solstice. Tolkien didn't allow for this and it is not a factor this year, but for long term consideration I'll have to see if it makes any difference in future leap years. Finally, as with Tokien's Shire Reckoning, my dates will start with the evening. Nominally I'll keep this at 6:00P but in actuality the date will change at sunset. Thanks for the contributions. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT