From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 27 Nov 1999 09:06:04 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 24 Message-ID: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 In the LOTR chapter "The Great River" we get a bit of meteorological detail in the form of warm wet clouds floating up from the South. And indeed the area east of the Misty Mountains would need to receive a lot of rain to support Mirkwood, Lorien, Fangorn and the river Anduin. But given the layout of mountains on CJRT's map of Middle Earth, the Anduin Plain ought to be arid, rather like Nevada/Utah. The Misty Mountains, the range north of Gondor and the mountains surrounding Morder isolate the region from the sea, so most of the rain in weather systems coming from the South and West would already have been discharged before getting into the region. The gaps at Rohan and Minas Tirith don't look large enough. So we have to imagine an Eastern Sea, just past Rhun, which would water the region. But this would contradict the map again, which gives the impression of endless steppes out in that direction. And Tolkien did specify that the warm wet clouds floated up from the South. Did he just have an oversight here? Or are the mountain chains of Middle Earth much lower than I thought? (Like up to about 1000 feet max, as I pictured Weathertop being) regards, --Rett ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:05:47 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.2c X-Server-Date: 27 Nov 1999 14:01:15 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail I never thought about this before, but the objections that started this thread make a lot of sense. Where does the Anduin get its water? It's not from tributaries: the map shows only a few in the Grey Mountains and then nothing until the Gladden and the Celebrant. It seems that *all* the water from Mirkwood drains east, not west, into the Sea of Rhun via the Forest River and the Celduin. As was pointed out, between the Misty Mountains, the White Mountains, and the fences of Mordor it seems unlikely that rain-bearing clouds could reach the eastern slopes of the Misty Mountains to provide water. So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "Conrad B. Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:55:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.107.140.120 X-Trace: reader1.interactive.net 943718198 216.107.140.120 (Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:56:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 10:56:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!cyclone.interactive.net!reader1.interactive.net!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.12a9af495798d99598a63a@news.mindspring.com... > Where does the Anduin get its water? It's not from tributaries: > the map shows only a few in the Grey Mountains and then nothing > until the Gladden and the Celebrant. The tributaries of Anduin from the northernmost extent down; River Greylin, Unnamed?, River Langwell, Rhimdath (from two branches), Gladden (from two branches), Celebrant (fed by Nimrodel and other branches), Limlight, Entwash (fed by River Snowbourn, River Glanhir and Nindalf), a couple of unnamed? rivers from the Ephel Duath, River Erui, River Sirith (fed River Kelos and other tributaries), and River Poros. Throw in various smaller streams and you've got alot of water going in there. > As was pointed out, between the Misty Mountains, the White > Mountains, and the fences of Mordor it seems unlikely that rain- > bearing clouds could reach the eastern slopes of the Misty > Mountains to provide water. Reasonable, but rivers from each of those mountains feed into the Anduin... meaning that those blocked clouds would still be feeding their water into Anduin - even leaving out the possibility of Valar altered weather patterns. I'd also suggest looking at the maps another way; All the rain which falls within a vast portion of Middle Earth drains into the Anduin. Mountains can impede the progress of storms, but do not always stop them. If storms blow up out of the Bay of Belfalas they are either going to hit the Ephel Duath... and drain into Anduin, or hit the Eastern White Mountains... and drain into Anduin, or pass over the White Mountains... and drain into Anduin. The only ways they might not drain into the Anduin would be if the storms went over the Ephel Duath (in which case the water goes to Nurnen) or to the western White Mountains. ###### From: echoota@aol.com (Neil Carr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:57:30 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3841e218.2987279@news.supernews.com> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail In the Letters somewhere he mentions how geologists, biologists, economists and other specialists had critiqued much of his creation and how it wouldn't work as described. He said something to the effect that if he had known where all of his storytelling was going he would have been more careful in how everything was set out. NW Middle Earth is intended to be a primordial section of Europe and he admits that he did not know squat about geology to be able to move it from then till now. -- Neil Carr MetroGamers - Dallas/Fort Worth http://www.earthsea.com/metrogamers/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81p2u9$3j0_004@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:04:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943722064 209.181.119.131 (Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:01:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:01:04 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >In the LOTR chapter "The Great River" we get a bit of meteorological >detail in the form of warm wet clouds floating up from the South. [schnip] Weather can also come down from the icy north, and the lands to the east are forested. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Morgion666 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:28:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.228.64.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Nov 27 18:28:31 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.228.64.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmorgion666 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail > In the LOTR chapter "The Great River" we get a bit of meteorological > detail in the form of warm wet clouds floating up from the South. > And indeed the area east of the Misty Mountains would need to receive > a lot of rain to support Mirkwood, Lorien, Fangorn and the river Anduin. > But given the layout of mountains on CJRT's map of Middle Earth, the > Anduin Plain ought to be arid, rather like Nevada/Utah. The Misty Mountains, > the range north of Gondor and the mountains surrounding Morder isolate > the region from the sea, so most of the rain in weather systems coming > from the South and West would already have been discharged before > getting into the region. The gaps at Rohan and Minas Tirith > don't look large enough. So we have to imagine an Eastern Sea, just > past Rhun, which would water the region. But this would contradict the map > again, which gives the impression of endless steppes out in that direction. > And Tolkien did specify that the warm wet clouds floated up from the South. > Did he just have an oversight here? Or are the mountain chains of Middle > Earth much lower than I thought? (Like up to about 1000 feet max, as I > pictured Weathertop being) Do you think anyone gives a damn? You don't have to dissect every friggin' detail of the books, just read them and enjoy them. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:38:21 -0500 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <38406B6C.907B9F26@erols.com> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: /gMjPLKAdL0NPO7HehifWasPAy+PzKtTXbIke5m9uQY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 1999 23:44:19 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote: > So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? If you look among the advertisements in the Red Book of Westmarch, you'll find one entitled "Visit the Great River" from the Lothlórien Tourist Bureau. Apparently, after Galadriel took off, Celeborn tried to make a quick buck by opening up the place to Men and Dwarves. It was he who coined the name "Great River" to what was originally a no-account creek. He was well known for advising visitors to head down the Anduin by boat. -- -- FotW An Elf-friend in need is an Elf-friend indeed. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Message-ID: References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 27 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:29:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 943734564 208.170.95.191 (Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:29:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:29:24 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > I never thought about this before, but the objections that started this > thread make a lot of sense. > > Where does the Anduin get its water? It's not from tributaries: the map > shows only a few in the Grey Mountains and then nothing until the Gladden > and the Celebrant. It seems that *all* the water from Mirkwood drains > east, not west, into the Sea of Rhun via the Forest River and the > Celduin. > > As was pointed out, between the Misty Mountains, the White Mountains, and > the fences of Mordor it seems unlikely that rain-bearing clouds could > reach the eastern slopes of the Misty Mountains to provide water. > > So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? The Misty Mountains are glacial terrain; you can tell this just by looking at the pictures in The Hobbit. Even if there were no rain in Rhovanion at all, the Anduin would still be fed by meltwater from glaciers and mountain snow. Probably the Anduin is modelled, in its upper course anyway, on the Danube, which although it flows W-E and not N-S, also flows parallel to a glacial mountain chain along its upper course. David Salo ###### From: cethiesus@aol.commy-nuts (Cethiesus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Nov 1999 00:03:50 GMT References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Do you think anyone gives a damn? You don't have to dissect every >friggin' detail of the books, just read them and enjoy them. > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy. > Obviously someone does enough to write all this about it. ()xxxxxxxxxxxx():::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::> Cethiesus To E-mail me, remove my-nuts <:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::()xxxxxxxxxxxx() ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 213-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:43:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 943778414 198.172.26.10 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:40:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:40:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!213-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:29:24 GMT, dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > The Misty Mountains are glacial terrain; you can tell this just by >looking at the pictures in The Hobbit. Even if there were no rain in >Rhovanion at all, the Anduin would still be fed by meltwater from glaciers >and mountain snow. Hmm. Interesting theory, and quite plausible, though it seems that it would take a lot of little mountain streams to produce a Great River. This does imply that ME had an 'ice age' at some point. Since there was never really a 'prehistoric' period, it seems that the ice age would have occurred (1) before the awakening of the Elves, or (2) during some very early part[1] of the recorded history, possibly pre-Sun. [1] Very early because glaciation takes thousands of years, making it relatively fast as geologic processes go but relatively slow if you have to sit and watch it happen. ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 28 Nov 1999 10:40:19 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 79 Message-ID: <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!ntnu.no!uio.no!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Thanks to everyone who responded. I have written replies to various people in the following, though I haven't had time to respond to all the people who made interesting points. David Salo wrote: : The Misty Mountains are glacial terrain; you can tell this just by : looking at the pictures in The Hobbit. Even if there were no rain in : Rhovanion at all, the Anduin would still be fed by meltwater from glaciers : and mountain snow. This seems reasonable, that snow and ice up on the Misty Mountains would drain on the East as well as the West Sides. But then wouldn't we still expect the _largest_ river to be on the seaward side of the mountain chain? As far as I can tell, Anduin is called the Great River because it is the largest river in ME. Also, this wouldn't account for the amount of rainfall necessary to support the great forests of Mirkwood and Fangorn. (I'll let Lorien fend for itself with magic). I don't think they had sprinkler systems? The Brown Lands seems like the most believable piece of real estate East of the Misty Mountains. : Probably the Anduin is modelled, in its upper course anyway, on the : Danube, which although it flows W-E and not N-S, also flows parallel to a : glacial mountain chain along its upper course. Interesting idea, though the Danube doesn't originate in a boxed-in piece of territory. morgion666@my-deja.com writes: : Do you think anyone gives a damn? You don't have to dissect every : friggin' detail of the books, just read them and enjoy them. Good point, about not dissecting them, at least the first time through. I do enjoy them very much, and it is only because they are so extremely well done that I would choose to harp on such details at all.I think somewhere about the tenth to hundredth time people read and enjoy the LotR they start taking pleasure in dissecting the details. So, yes, I do think there are people here who give a damn. Michael@xenite.org writes: : Weather can also come down from the icy north, and the lands to the : east are forested. What about the Grey Mountains then? As for the lands to the East, do you mean Mirkwood? The mystery of where that _enourmous_ forest gets its water remains unsolved. However I have noticed a couple of times as I read on that great storms come 'out of the East' (obviously in a sinister fashion). That also appears to be an arid direction, so really, I think we just have to accept that Middle Earth's precipitation patterns were not taken into account when it was designed. Regarding this we have the following: echoota@aol.com writes: : In the Letters somewhere he mentions how geologists, biologists, : economists and other specialists had critiqued much of his creation : and how it wouldn't work as described. He said something to the : effect that if he had known where all of his storytelling was going he : would have been more careful in how everything was set out. NW Middle : Earth is intended to be a primordial section of Europe and he admits : that he did not know squat about geology to be able to move it from : then till now. Fair enough. If Tolkien had taken the time to become a tenth as learned in those other fields as he was in philology, LotR would probably never have seen the light of day. regards, --Rett ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:53:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.219 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943807834 207.224.149.219 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:50:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:50:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feed2.nntp.acc.ca!feed.nntp.acc.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >This does imply that ME had an 'ice age' at some point. Since there >was never really a 'prehistoric' period, it seems that the ice age >would have occurred (1) before the awakening of the Elves, or (2) >during some very early part[1] of the recorded history, possibly >pre-Sun. Morgoth was associated with ice. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:55:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.219 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943807936 207.224.149.219 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:52:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:52:16 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >Michael@xenite.org writes: > >: Weather can also come down from the icy north, and the lands to the >: east are forested. > >What about the Grey Mountains then? As for the lands to the East, do you >mean Mirkwood? The mystery of where that _enourmous_ forest gets its water >remains unsolved. No, there were forests to the east of the Iron Hills, Carnen, and Rhun. Mirkwood is of course watered by the Forest River and Celduin, and probably numerous smaller streams which begin the highlands inside and outside the forest. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 28 Nov 1999 16:57:28 GMT Organization: Pigs in Blankets Lines: 24 Message-ID: <81rmto$ksi$1@newsie2.cent.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: ursolaris.spdcc.com X-Trace: newsie2.cent.net 943808248 21394 140.186.80.8 (28 Nov 1999 16:57:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@newsie2.cent.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 1999 16:57:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsie2.cent.net!not-for-mail In article <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se>, Thiele Everett wrote: > >This seems reasonable, that snow and ice up on the Misty Mountains would >drain on the East as well as the West Sides. But then wouldn't we still >expect the _largest_ river to be on the seaward side of the mountain >chain? As far as I can tell, Anduin is called the Great River because >it is the largest river in ME. Folks more expert than I in Sindarin (of whom there are many) are welcome to correct me, but I think that a more precise translation of "Anduin" would be "long river" (cf. Cair Andros = "ship of long-foam"). And Anduin is certainly a long river, although I'm not about to check to see whether it is in fact that longest river in the area covered by any of the maps. Still, its Common-Speech name does appear to be "Great" rather than "Long", and it shows every sign of being a very substantial stream. I go along with the others who have suggested that it suited Tolkien's story to have a big river running south to Gondor east of the Misty Mountains, and he didn't concern himself a whole lot with the geological and/or meterological probabilities. -- -------Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)------------------------- "At least the craters on my asteroid look nice." --BBC ###### From: Morgion666 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:59:51 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.228.64.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Nov 28 16:59:51 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en] (Win95; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x30.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.228.64.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmorgion666 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com>, cethiesus@aol.commy-nuts (Cethiesus) wrote: > >Do you think anyone gives a damn? You don't have to dissect every > >friggin' detail of the books, just read them and enjoy them. > Obviously someone does enough to write all this about it. That's what pisses me off, people like him. I don't think they even like the books if all they do is bitch about them. Oooh, Anduin can't exist, big f*cking deal! Does it look like I care? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 28 Nov 1999 17:07:21 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 22 Message-ID: <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : In article <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) : wrote: : >Michael@xenite.org writes: : > : >: Weather can also come down from the icy north, and the lands to the : >: east are forested. : > : >What about the Grey Mountains then? As for the lands to the East, do you : >mean Mirkwood? The mystery of where that _enourmous_ forest gets its : >water remains unsolved. : No, there were forests to the east of the Iron Hills, Carnen, and Rhun. : Mirkwood is of course watered by the Forest River and Celduin, and : probably numerous smaller streams which begin the highlands inside : and outside the forest. You mean the way the Nile waters large natural forests on both its banks? --Rett ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81rpma$1l0_034@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:44:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.219 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943810894 207.224.149.219 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:41:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:41:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: > >: No, there were forests to the east of the Iron Hills, Carnen, and Rhun. >: Mirkwood is of course watered by the Forest River and Celduin, and >: probably numerous smaller streams which begin the highlands inside >: and outside the forest. > >You mean the way the Nile waters large natural forests on both its >banks? There are marshes along both rivers. The presence of the marshes indicates the waters from the rivers get back into the forest. Of course, most of Mirkwood probably just depends on rainfall. There are plenty of potential sources for supportive weather and water in Middle-earth. New Mexico is largely desert/arid land, but there are forests along the rivers. I live close to the Rio Grande and we have a lot of trees in our area, but you only have to drive a couple of miles to get out into the flat, empty areas. There are, however, forests throughout the state, especially in the highlands. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81rpoj$1l0_036@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmto$ksi$1@newsie2.cent.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:45:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.219 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943810967 207.224.149.219 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:42:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:42:47 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81rmto$ksi$1@newsie2.cent.net>, coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote: >In article <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se>, Thiele Everett wrote: >> >>This seems reasonable, that snow and ice up on the Misty Mountains would >>drain on the East as well as the West Sides. But then wouldn't we still >>expect the _largest_ river to be on the seaward side of the mountain >>chain? As far as I can tell, Anduin is called the Great River because >>it is the largest river in ME. > >Folks more expert than I in Sindarin (of whom there are many) are >welcome to correct me, but I think that a more precise translation of >"Anduin" would be "long river" (cf. Cair Andros = "ship of >long-foam"). And Anduin is certainly a long river, although I'm not >about to check to see whether it is in fact that longest river in the >area covered by any of the maps. Still, its Common-Speech name does >appear to be "Great" rather than "Long", and it shows every sign of >being a very substantial stream. The name appears to be serving dual purposes. Down in Gondor the Anduin is navigable by sea-going vessels (much like the Danube). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 28 Nov 1999 19:20:43 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 27 Message-ID: <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Morgion666 (morgion666@my-deja.com) wrote: : In article <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com>, : cethiesus@aol.commy-nuts (Cethiesus) wrote: : > >Do you think anyone gives a damn? You don't have to dissect every : > >friggin' detail of the books, just read them and enjoy them. : > Obviously someone does enough to write all this about it. : That's what pisses me off, people like him. : I don't think they even like : the books if all they do is bitch about them. : Oooh, Anduin can't exist, big f*cking deal! Does it look like I care? Dear Morgion666, My question was not at all intended as putting down Tolkien or his works. I was trying to see what information or speculation the knowledgable people on this group might provide on this question. I am happy with the answers they have given. If I have offended you, please accept my apology. --Rett ###### From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Nov 1999 19:56:05 GMT References: <81rpoj$1l0_036@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19991128145605.13871.00001013@ng-ca1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: >The Misty Mountains are glacial terrain; you can tell this just by looking at the pictures in The Hobbit.  Even if there were no rain in Rhovanion at all, the Anduin would still be fed by meltwater from glaciers and mountain snow.                                                       David Salo What is your evidence supporting glacial morphology? On the maps I have access to I see no evidence supporting this theory what so ever. There are no moraines, drumlins, eskers, finger lakes or other geologic features associated with glacial morphology. Actually the map in THE HOBBIT indicates an area of contact between two tectonic plates causing one plate to be subducted by the other producing the Misty Mountains....similar to the origins of the Andes or the Cascades. These mountains would have had a history of volcanism and substantial metomorphism. Evidence for a volcanic origin to the mountain range would be the numerous metals and gems found there by the dwarves. I see no plausible explanation for the origin of the vast volume of water in the Anduin or enough information to determine weather patterns and a climatic history to ME. Since Tolkien was not a geologist I would speculate that scientific accuracy was not a priority in his writing. Josie ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 28 Nov 1999 20:22:45 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 37 Message-ID: <81s2ul$djl$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se><81rpma$1l0_034@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!uio.no!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : In article <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) : wrote: : >Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : > : >: No, there were forests to the east of the Iron Hills, Carnen, and Rhun. : >: Mirkwood is of course watered by the Forest River and Celduin, and : >: probably numerous smaller streams which begin the highlands inside : >: and outside the forest. : > : >You mean the way the Nile waters large natural forests on both its : >banks? : There are marshes along both rivers. The presence of the marshes : indicates the waters from the rivers get back into the forest. Of : course, most of Mirkwood probably just depends on rainfall. Rainfall is precisely the issue; my contention is that the geology of the region would rule out sufficient rainfall. Mirkwood covers something on the order of 100,000 square miles, so the capillary effect from marshes along the Forest River is not going to go far. We are talking about a really huge forest. It's not enough for some clouds to get in there once in a while, we need extensive rainfronts moving through on a regular basis, and there's nowhere for them to come from, except from the East, but then we'd need to have the ocean over there, right off the edge of the map, however the dead Sea of Rhun has a distinctively central-continental look about it, like the Caspian Sea. Otherwise we can say that the evil Mordorian thunderstorms arise over Morder, perhaps spewed from Mount Doom? It doesn't ruin the books for me, but it is definitely a glitch in the otherwise nicely-stitched fabric of Middle Earth, IMO. --Rett ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Message-ID: References: <81rpoj$1l0_036@news.uswest.net> <19991128145605.13871.00001013@ng-ca1.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:48:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 943822101 208.170.95.214 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:48:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:48:21 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <19991128145605.13871.00001013@ng-ca1.aol.com>, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) wrote: > David Salo wrote: > > >The Misty Mountains are glacial terrain; you can tell this just by looking at > the pictures in The Hobbit.  Even if there were no rain in Rhovanion at all, > the Anduin would still be fed by meltwater from glaciers and mountain snow. > >                                                       David Salo > > What is your evidence supporting glacial morphology? On the maps I have access > to I see no evidence supporting this theory what so ever. The maps are very sketchy and certainly don't fully illustrate every feature of the Mountains! I was referring to the illustrations "The Misty Mountains looking West from the Eyrie towards Goblin Gate", which should be in most illustrated editions of The Hobbit, and the color picture "Bilbo woke up with the early sun in his eyes" (the one with the big eagle); these show u-shaped valleys and soaring horns of rock like the Matterhorn, Alpine features which I associate with glaciation. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Message-ID: References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 40 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:03:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 943823028 208.170.95.214 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:03:48 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:03:48 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > This seems reasonable, that snow and ice up on the Misty Mountains would > drain on the East as well as the West Sides. But then wouldn't we still > expect the _largest_ river to be on the seaward side of the mountain > chain? As far as I can tell, Anduin is called the Great River because > it is the largest river in ME. The Greyflood's pretty darn big! And maybe even bigger in volume in it's upper stretch than the Anduin. The difference in length is simple: the sea's a lot closer to the source of the Greyflood than it is to the Anduin. > Also, this wouldn't account for the amount of rainfall necessary to > support the great forests of Mirkwood and Fangorn. (I'll let Lorien > fend for itself with magic). I don't think they had sprinkler systems? > The Brown Lands seems like the most believable piece of real estate > East of the Misty Mountains. I don't think that forests require quite as much moisture as all that. There are (or were) taiga forests stretching right across north Russia into Siberia, and over most of northern Canada; these aren't deserts, but they're not exactly rain forests either, receiving less than 5 inches of precip. in the winter months, 5-20 in the summer. (The east coast of North America, by contrast, gets 20-40 year round). > > : Probably the Anduin is modelled, in its upper course anyway, on the > : Danube, which although it flows W-E and not N-S, also flows parallel to a > : glacial mountain chain along its upper course. > > Interesting idea, though the Danube doesn't originate in a boxed-in piece > of territory. Tibet is one of the driest regions on the planet (less than 5 inches of precip. year round); yet the Hwang Ho, the Yangtse, the Mekong, the Irrawaddy, and the Brahmaputra all rise in it -- on the side _away_ from the monsoons, if you please! The Irtysh arises in the Altai range, also in the dry interior of Eurasia, but from its source to its confluence with the Ob and thence to its outflow in the Gulf of Ob, is one of the longest rivers in the world. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.26 Lines: 17 Date: 28 Nov 1999 15:00:20 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 943830024 198.172.26.10 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:00:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:00:24 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!mark On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:53:42 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >>This does imply that ME had an 'ice age' at some point. Since there >>was never really a 'prehistoric' period, it seems that the ice age >>would have occurred (1) before the awakening of the Elves, or (2) >>during some very early part[1] of the recorded history, possibly >>pre-Sun. > >Morgoth was associated with ice. (But then he was also associated with fire, wasn't he?) I thought of this. I suppose Morgoth might have left some glaciers lying around. (Left over from the construction of the Thangorodrim, maybe?) The runoff from these could supply a pretty substantial river. It would also correlate nicely with the Helcaraxe, the Lossoth, and all the other things that imply the existence of enormous amounts of ice in the North. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:02:48 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.d5 X-Server-Date: 28 Nov 1999 22:58:12 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Mirkwood is of course watered by the Forest River and Celduin, Er, it's *drained* by the Forest River, not watered by it. The River takes water away, it doesn't bring it. The Celduin hardly matters, just passing by a part of the eastern fringe of Mirkwood, but it too is taking water away, or at least taking away more than it brings. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: Brady Severns Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:33:30 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" X-ELN-Date: 29 Nov 1999 02:33:06 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Nov 28 18:35:04 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 60 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: bradyseverns@earthlink.net NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-003txaustp148.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <3841D7E7.F1A26998@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.idt.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote: > I never thought about this before, but the objections that started this > thread make a lot of sense. > > Where does the Anduin get its water? It's not from tributaries: the map > shows only a few in the Grey Mountains and then nothing until the Gladden > and the Celebrant. It seems that *all* the water from Mirkwood drains > east, not west, into the Sea of Rhun via the Forest River and the > Celduin. > > As was pointed out, between the Misty Mountains, the White Mountains, and > the fences of Mordor it seems unlikely that rain-bearing clouds could > reach the eastern slopes of the Misty Mountains to provide water. > > So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? There appears to be several such anamolies when looking at the map that the Tolkiens made, and further interpretations by other artists can only recast them in the new artist's style. For example, why is there such a huge delta, the Nindalf, flowing into the Anduin? That a mountainous island (Tolfalas) sits just beyond the mouth of the Ethir Anduin (another large delta) makes little sense to me as well. For that matter, which way do the Glanduin's waters flow through Nin-in-Eilph (Swanfleet)? The water must flow west to meet the Greyflood, yet all the little tributaries in that marshy land appear to flow east! But that's the way it is. I've noticed, too, that the map is most developed where the Fellowship and, earlier, Thorin's party traveled through Middle Earth. Not geographically accurate, mind you, just more developed with features, place-names, etc. Looking at the map reminds me of the maps created by the cartographers and geographers from antiquity to the Renaissance. They are accurate in a general, loose, and highly stylized way and not in a narrow, scientific sense. I view the Tolkiens' map(s), at my peril, I am sure, in the same way. It is imperfect/anamolous (geographically), incomplete (from the perspective of the inhabitants), and very stylized. I think we should accept, for the sake of the stories, that Tolkien's descriptions of the land and weather to the man (that is, the characters) on the ground are true and accurate. Where they appear to make little sense on the map vs. the world as we know how it works and operates, I treat the map Chris created as an imperfect or "naive" window (in an artistic sense) to his father's own world. Therefore, to answer the question of how the Anduin became great, I would say that there may be many gentle creeks and smaller rivers, perhaps unders the eaves of Mirkwood, that empty into it that are not shown because they were neglible in effect to both the characters in the stories and to the denizens of those lands. As to where the moisture comes from to water Mirkwood, I would say there are probably systems that come up from the the south and meet with those from the east and that's where the storms break. But that's just rationalizing based on a look at the map and the scale it's drawn in and not based on anything Tolkien wrote. Brady ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81sr53$3f4_018@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se><81rpma$1l0_034@news.uswest.net> <81s2ul$djl$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 45 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:15:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943845158 207.224.149.215 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:12:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:12:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81s2ul$djl$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: >: There are marshes along both rivers. The presence of the marshes >: indicates the waters from the rivers get back into the forest. Of >: course, most of Mirkwood probably just depends on rainfall. > >Rainfall is precisely the issue; my contention is that the geology >of the region would rule out sufficient rainfall... Not in the least. There are major water sources to north, east, and west. Rainfall doesn't come from just one direction. >...Mirkwood covers something on the order of 100,000 square miles, >so the capillary effect from marshes along the Forest River is not >going to go far... See above. >...We are talking about a really huge forest. It's not enough for >some clouds to get in there once in a while, we need extensive >rainfronts moving through on a regular basis, and there's nowhere >for them to come from, except from the East,... Rain fronts cross the Rocky Mountains all the time. There's no reason why they can't cross the Misty Mountains, too. >...but then we'd need to have the ocean over there, right off >the edge of the map, however the dead Sea of Rhun has a distinctively >central-continental look about it, like the Caspian Sea... Rhun is not a dead sea. It's an inland sea. And inland bodies of water generate plenty of weather, as anyone who lives near the Great Lakes can tell you. >...Otherwise we can say that the evil Mordorian thunderstorms arise over >Morder, perhaps spewed from Mount Doom? I wouldn't expect that, nor is it needed to explain how Anduin gets its water. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943845306 207.224.149.215 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:15:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:15:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:53:42 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>In article <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark > Wells) wrote: >>>This does imply that ME had an 'ice age' at some point. Since there >>>was never really a 'prehistoric' period, it seems that the ice age >>>would have occurred (1) before the awakening of the Elves, or (2) >>>during some very early part[1] of the recorded history, possibly >>>pre-Sun. >> >>Morgoth was associated with ice. > >(But then he was also associated with fire, wasn't he?) Yes, but the ices of the north were pretty much attributed to him. >I thought of this. I suppose Morgoth might have left some glaciers lying >around. (Left over from the construction of the Thangorodrim, maybe?) [snip] Thangorodrim was essentially a volcanic slag heap. The icy wastes lay to the north, east, and west of it (but mostly to the north). There was plenty of ice north of the Ered Mithrin and thus a reasonable source of moisture to generate weather. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943845306 207.224.149.215 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:15:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:15:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:53:42 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>In article <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark > Wells) wrote: >>>This does imply that ME had an 'ice age' at some point. Since there >>>was never really a 'prehistoric' period, it seems that the ice age >>>would have occurred (1) before the awakening of the Elves, or (2) >>>during some very early part[1] of the recorded history, possibly >>>pre-Sun. >> >>Morgoth was associated with ice. > >(But then he was also associated with fire, wasn't he?) Yes, but the ices of the north were pretty much attributed to him. >I thought of this. I suppose Morgoth might have left some glaciers lying >around. (Left over from the construction of the Thangorodrim, maybe?) [snip] Thangorodrim was essentially a volcanic slag heap. The icy wastes lay to the north, east, and west of it (but mostly to the north). There was plenty of ice north of the Ered Mithrin and thus a reasonable source of moisture to generate weather. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81srbj$3f4_022@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3841D7E7.F1A26998@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:19:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.215 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943845366 207.224.149.215 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:16:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:16:06 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3841D7E7.F1A26998@earthlink.net>, bradyseverns@earthlink.net wrote: >Stan Brown wrote: >> As was pointed out, between the Misty Mountains, the White Mountains, and >> the fences of Mordor it seems unlikely that rain-bearing clouds could >> reach the eastern slopes of the Misty Mountains to provide water. >> >> So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? > >There appears to be several such anamolies when looking at the map that the >Tolkiens made, and further interpretations by other artists can only recast >them in the new artist's style. Rain has no problem crossing mountains in real life, so the books should be spared this kind of pseudo-meterological second-guessing. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:32:27 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 18 Message-ID: <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhR6jiOdU3/9yDums6qQRuh+7Cyf+AIUJuSOYycTYFpWw5UBBCjdarLriKo= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail What difference does it make? LotR is fantasy fiction, not a friggin nature documentary for cryin out loud! In fantasy, it is "normal" for at least some of the laws of physics as we know them to be suspended. This is the case here, although Tolkien knew that his story did need enough elements of "realism" in order to keep it believable and prevent it from completely flying out into the realms of fancy. That's an external view. There's also a story-internal way of looking at this. The Valar do have some degree of control over ME; whether or not there are supernatural beings that do this in the real world; as well as our beliefs on the matter, is unimportant, the important thing is that the Valar do exist in ME, and so therefore play some part in what happens there, including weather. Regardsless of the geological impossibilities, if the Valar wanted it to rain in eastern ME, I'm sure they would be able to make it so. Surely Manwe and Ulmo together would be able to come up with something together. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:57:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 943855032 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:57:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:57:12 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Morgion666 : > That's what pisses me off, people like him. I don't think they even > like the books if all they do is bitch about them. I see that you're rather new here! Quite a few of us are "like him", as far as I can tell: we enjoy exploring every detail about Middle-earth that we can find in order to come to a better understanding of it in the end. I certainly wouldn't call it "bitching" about the books: for me, at least, it's an attempt to find the most likely way to fill in the gaps that Tolkien left in his world. (Tolkien himself did much the same thing when writing, as can be seen in quite a few essays in HoMe.) At any rate, _I_ like the books... love them, in fact. I have yet to find another author whose invented world can withstand close scrutiny as well as Tolkien's can, and that very resilience makes it that much more real for me. While I'm not entirely confident that a good answer will be found for this question, I am still enjoying the search for one. If you don't like this sort of thing, then feel free to ignore it, but don't spoil the fun for the rest of us! Steuard Jensen ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Nov 1999 06:43:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >At any rate, _I_ like the books... love them, in fact. I have yet to >find another author whose invented world can withstand close scrutiny >as well as Tolkien's can, and that very resilience makes it that much >more real for me. Hear, Hear! I believe that goes for me as well Steuard. But I admire the consistency as much or more because it allows me to go beyond worrying about continuity and envelope myself in the language used to write the story and the ideas & beliefs behind the words. I've never really read anything for the detail as much as I've read for a reflection on myself. Not that the details aren't interesting, mind you. I've just never found them to be the "Big Picture" in any book I've read. The battle between Technique and Vision might be one way to sum it up. And mind you, I like Tolkien specifically because his technique plays into his vision so well. I just don't feel that the technique is the end of the road. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 29 Nov 1999 07:03:52 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 20 Message-ID: <81t8go$ikp$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3841D7E7.F1A26998@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Brady Severns (bradyseverns@earthlink.net) wrote: [snip interesting discussion] : I think we should accept, for the sake of the stories, that Tolkien's : descriptions of the land and weather to the man (that is, the characters) : on the ground are true and accurate. Where they appear to make little : sense on the map vs. the world as we know how it works and operates, : I treat the map Chris created as an imperfect or "naive" window (in an : artistic sense) to his father's own world. This is a very appealing idea, in that it emphasizes that the maps are only interpretations and not privileged keys to the spatial structure of the books. We can have a similar attitude towards the maps that we have towards the variety of artwork depicting scenes from the book: picking and choosing what suits our inner imagery best. Thanks for the helpful ideas. --Rett ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 29 Nov 1999 07:34:23 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 50 Message-ID: <81ta9v$ims$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 David Salo (dsalo@usa.net) wrote: : The Greyflood's pretty darn big! And maybe even bigger in volume in : it's upper stretch than the Anduin. The difference in length is simple: : the sea's a lot closer to the source of the Greyflood than it is to the : Anduin. Okay, granted. : I don't think that forests require quite as much moisture as all that. : There are (or were) taiga forests stretching right across north Russia : into Siberia, and over most of northern Canada; these aren't deserts, but : they're not exactly rain forests either, receiving less than 5 inches of : precip. in the winter months, 5-20 in the summer. (The east coast of North : America, by contrast, gets 20-40 year round). Okay, fair enough. I had sort of thought that the Anduin plain was so boxed-in as to most likely be an actual desert, but the evidence of the texts suggests otherwise. : > : > : Probably the Anduin is modelled, in its upper course anyway, on the : > : Danube, which although it flows W-E and not N-S, also flows parallel : > : to a glacial mountain chain along its upper course. : > : > Interesting idea, though the Danube doesn't originate in a boxed-in : > piece of territory. : Tibet is one of the driest regions on the planet (less than 5 inches : of precip. year round); yet the Hwang Ho, the Yangtse, the Mekong, the : Irrawaddy, and the Brahmaputra all rise in it -- on the side _away_ from : the monsoons, if you please! The Irtysh arises in the Altai range, also : in the dry interior of Eurasia, but from its source to its confluence with : the Ob and thence to its outflow in the Gulf of Ob, is one of the longest : rivers in the world. Admirable fact-finding, though this comes back to the earlier question of melting snow from the mountains running-off on the 'back' slope, as we can imagine happening off the Misty Mountains. So I concede the Anduin's existence, but am still sceptical about Mirkwood. But since that great forest is palpably present in _The Hobbit_, I guess I'll just have to admit that there are things in this universe beyond my ability to fathom. Thanks for the detailed argumentation in your posts! --Rett ###### From: KBarton Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <000b8d9b.fba0373b@usw-ex0102-014.remarq.com> Lines: 30 Bytes: 1356 X-Originating-Host: 209.38.98.18 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81ta9v$ims$1@oden.abc.se> X-Wren-Trace: eK2IoKG4/7X+5qqniOSisLqsrr/mquK26PPy9+rq7KP786P9+w== Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:23:08 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.14 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 943897017 10.0.2.14 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:36:57 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:36:57 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!209.249.97.47.MISMATCH!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail In article <81ta9v$ims$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > Admirable fact-finding, though this comes back to the earlier > question of > melting snow from the mountains running-off on the 'back' slope, > as we can > imagine happening off the Misty Mountains. So I concede the > Anduin's > existence, but am still sceptical about Mirkwood. OK, How's this for a theory. I don't remember many detailed geological descriptions of the region. The only ones we have describe a good sized river running through it and Bilbo trying to see the end of the forest in the bottom of a broad valley. But we know Mirkwood has mountains right? So what if the whole area was a broad uplifted area. Kind of like the Black Hills in Dakota. Certainly the areas are similar. Both are on the leaward side of a major mountain range. Both are surrounded by dry, high plains. Of course Mirkwood could not be as rough of a territory but it might rise up enough to squeeze a little bit of extra water out of the clouds. This would also leave the areas to its west a little dryer - desolation of Smaug anyone? I'm not a professional geologist however so what does everyone else think? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38424924.94742568@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <81rpoj$1l0_036@news.uswest.net> <19991128145605.13871.00001013@ng-ca1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 180-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 28 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:48:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 943868724 198.172.26.10 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:45:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:45:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!180-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On 28 Nov 1999 19:56:05 GMT, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) wrote: >What is your evidence supporting glacial morphology? On the maps I have access >to I see no evidence supporting this theory what so ever. There are no >moraines, drumlins, eskers, finger lakes or other geologic features associated >with glacial morphology. Actually the map in THE HOBBIT indicates an area of The mountain range might in fact be the World's Largest Terminal Moraine, but somehow I don't like the idea of a glacier that size sliding across Middle-earth, shoving a million tons of rock into a big pile, and melting away before anyone sees it. >contact between two tectonic plates causing one plate to be subducted by the >other producing the Misty Mountains....similar to the origins of the Andes or >the Cascades. These mountains would have had a history of volcanism and >substantial metomorphism. Evidence for a volcanic origin to the mountain range >would be the numerous metals and gems found there by the dwarves. (This question would be so much easier to answer if Tolkien had *just once*, among all his five-page descriptions of individual trees, mentioned what kind of rock the Misty Mountains are made of.) Yes, the Misty Mountains do seem a lot like a volcanic/tectonic range. I don't remember any active volcanoes (Mount Doom, of course, but not in the Misty Mountains) or earthquakes, but maybe the plate was altered enough in one of the major divine interventions in its history that it's no longer active. ###### From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Nov 1999 12:49:51 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19991129074951.13821.00001514@ng-cf1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!windy.ip.versatel.net!netnews.com!spool1.news.globix.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail David Salo wrote: >> >The Misty Mountains are glacial terrain; you can tell this just by looking >at >> the pictures in The Hobbit.  Even if there were no rain in Rhovanion at >all, >> the Anduin would still be fed by meltwater from glaciers and mountain snow. Josie wrote: >> What is your evidence supporting glacial morphology? On the maps I have >access >> to I see no evidence supporting this theory what so ever. David Salo wrote >The maps are very sketchy and certainly don't fully illustrate every >feature of the Mountains! I was referring to the illustrations "The Misty >Mountains looking West from the Eyrie towards Goblin Gate", which should be >in most illustrated editions of The Hobbit, and the color picture "Bilbo >woke up with the early sun in his eyes" (the one with the big eagle); these >show u-shaped valleys and soaring horns of rock like the Matterhorn, Alpine features which I associate with glaciation. Ahhh, I'm with you now David. Individual mountains within the range show evidence of 'mountain glaciation' a.k.a. Alpine glaciation. BTW... Alpine glaciation is vastly different from Continental glaciation which would produce glacial terrane over a large portion of the continent. Mountain glaciation would indeed have u-shaped valleys as well as cirques, horns and aretes. I've not seen the illustrations you wrote about but I have noticed that when mountains are depicted on maps of ME they seem to show the steep sides where mountain glaciation may be prevalent. However, I have found no evidence to indicate that any possible glacial ice sheets extended onto the continent. Welcome to the wonderful world of geology...is it any wonder I gave it up? :) Josie ###### From: Robert Carnegie Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:15:12 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <81u8q3$mot$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.249.253 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Nov 29 16:15:12 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (Windows 4.10;US) Opera 3.60 [en] X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 ECSUNURS1, 1.0 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 62.253.249.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrja_carnegie Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!windy.ip.versatel.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: > What difference does it make? LotR is fantasy fiction, not a friggin > nature documentary for cryin out loud! In fantasy, it is "normal" for > at least some of the laws of physics as we know them to be suspended. > This is the case here, although Tolkien knew that his story did need > enough elements of "realism" in order to keep it believable and prevent > it from completely flying out into the realms of fancy. > That's an external view. There's also a story-internal way of > looking at this. The Valar do have some degree of control over ME; > whether or not there are supernatural beings that do this in the real > world; as well as our beliefs on the matter, is unimportant, the > important thing is that the Valar do exist in ME, and so therefore play > some part in what happens there, including weather. Regardsless of the > geological impossibilities, if the Valar wanted it to rain in eastern > ME, I'm sure they would be able to make it so. Surely Manwe and Ulmo > together would be able to come up with something together. Heck, if the magical Force in _Star Wars_ is generated by all living things which contain mitochondrial chlorates, or whatever they were called, maybe Middle-Earth trees, growing in a country which at one time was all Elvish, have magical abilities to draw water down from the skies, or up from the aquifer, more than normal physics allows for. Remember the effect of Sam's soil from Lorien, and his prodigious replacement for the Party Tree. Anyway, pointing out logical, or geological, impossibilities in the story is a legitimate way to appreciate it. Making up excuses for them is fun too. Apologists for Sherlock Holmes, for instance, have a number of similar problems. Robert Carnegie Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:46:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 943893827 198.172.26.10 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:43:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:43:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!198-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:15 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: [snip] >There was plenty of ice north of the Ered Mithrin and thus a reasonable source >of moisture to generate weather. I suppose, but there's something bizarre and counterintuitive about the idea of the moisture coming out of the north. When moisture comes from the ocean, there's a difference in surface heat absorption that drives the convection effects that push the moisture inland. I don't see anything similar in the north. (Where does the air *come from*? There would have to be a constant air current, like a jet stream, going north from the other side of the world, over the north pole (this is Third Age, so there *is* a north pole), and then south into Eriador. Find me one example of that kind of air current.) ###### From: oyvindse@ulrik.uio.no (\yvind Seland) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 29 Nov 1999 17:04:36 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 35 Message-ID: <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jonas.uio.no Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!oyvindse In article <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: > On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:15 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael > Martinez) wrote: > > [snip] > > >There was plenty of ice north of the Ered Mithrin and thus a reasonable source > >of moisture to generate weather. > > I suppose, but there's something bizarre and counterintuitive about > the idea of the moisture coming out of the north. When moisture comes > from the ocean, there's a difference in surface heat absorption that > drives the convection effects that push the moisture inland. I don't > see anything similar in the north. (Where does the air *come from*? > There would have to be a constant air current, like a jet stream, > going north from the other side of the world, over the north pole > (this is Third Age, so there *is* a north pole), and then south into > Eriador. Find me one example of that kind of air current.) > If one really are going to discuss precipitation rates and such in Middle Earth, (Not that I think this is necessary in order to enjoy the books :-) ) I would say that enough water to sustain Mirkwood is more unbelievable. After all the river Missouri starts in the east slopes of the Rocky Mountains. There are no White Mountains in the south of the US though. Řyvind Seland ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><81rpma$1l0_034@news.uswest.net> <81s2ul$djl$1@oden.abc.se> <81sr53$3f4_018@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 39 Message-ID: <2oy04.419$iT1.8013@uchinews> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:06:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 943895166 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:06:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:06:06 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > >...We are talking about a really huge forest. It's not enough for > >some clouds to get in there once in a while, we need extensive > >rainfronts moving through on a regular basis, and there's nowhere > >for them to come from, except from the East,... > Rain fronts cross the Rocky Mountains all the time. There's no reason why > they can't cross the Misty Mountains, too. I was going to say something like this, remembering the Nebraska thunderstorms of my youth, but then it hit me: Nebraska is in the Great American Desert, which gets enough rain to support prairie vegetation but needs substantial irrigation to be reasonable for crops, much less anything else. (Buffalo grass is being studied and cultivated as a highly drought-resistant strain that needs very little water to survive). I can count the major natural forests between the Rockies and the Mississippi on no hands; for that matter, the only natural _trees_ that I've seen in most of that area are _right_ along the banks of creeks and rivers. (There are some substantial groves of pines on some of the ridges in western Nebraska, but nothing at all dense. Mirkwood would dry up and crumble in the Great Plains, I think.) The point is, my limited understanding of geography and meteorology and climatology is leading me to conclude that the original poster has a good point. I'm still interested in knowing more about the forests of Canada, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe Middle-earth doesn't have as much of a temperature gradient in the atmosphere at different altitudes as we do, so the rain isn't as quick to drop as storms pass over the mountains? On another note, the Silmarillion map is much more reasonable as far as it's drawn; the mountains are over to the east, away from the sea. If Tolkien _did_ get his map for _The Hobbit_ by simply reflecting that map, then at least we have a satisfying _out_-of-story explanation for the confusion (even if "lack of scientific training" isn't seen as sufficient). :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81ue3m$23k_010@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:45:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.163 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943897335 207.224.147.163 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:42:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:42:15 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:15 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >[snip] > >>There was plenty of ice north of the Ered Mithrin and thus a reasonable source > >>of moisture to generate weather. > >I suppose, but there's something bizarre and counterintuitive about >the idea of the moisture coming out of the north. Maybe, but that happens here in the United States every winter. I'm sure moisture comes out of the south every winter on the bottom side of the planet. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:46:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.163 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943897426 207.224.147.163 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:43:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:43:46 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no>, oyvindse@ulrik.uio.no (\yvind Seland) wrote: >If one really are going to discuss precipitation rates and >such in Middle Earth, (Not that I think this is necessary >in order to enjoy the books :-) ) I would say that >enough water to sustain Mirkwood is more unbelievable. >After all the river Missouri starts in the east slopes of >the Rocky Mountains. There are no White Mountains >in the south of the US though. If nature really worked the way you guys wanted it to, the Mississipi river couldn't possibly exist, since it lies between two mountain ranges. Mountains do NOT block moisture. They affect wind patterns, but storms blow across the rockies all the time, and local weather systems in the plains states generate their own rainstorms anyway. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81ue8c$23k_014@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><81rpma$1l0_034@news.uswest.net> <81s2ul$djl$1@oden.abc.se> <81sr53$3f4_018@news.uswest.net> <2oy04.419$iT1.8013@uchinews> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:47:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.163 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943897485 207.224.147.163 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:44:45 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:44:45 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <2oy04.419$iT1.8013@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): >> m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: >> >...We are talking about a really huge forest. It's not enough for >> >some clouds to get in there once in a while, we need extensive >> >rainfronts moving through on a regular basis, and there's nowhere >> >for them to come from, except from the East,... > >> Rain fronts cross the Rocky Mountains all the time. There's no reason why >> they can't cross the Misty Mountains, too. > >I was going to say something like this, remembering the Nebraska >thunderstorms of my youth, but then it hit me: Nebraska is in the >Great American Desert, which gets enough rain to support prairie >vegetation but needs substantial irrigation to be reasonable for >crops, much less anything else. [snip] I still live in New Mexico, land of deserts and forests. And I'm on the east side of the Rockies. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: oyvindse@ulrik.uio.no (\yvind Seland) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 29 Nov 1999 18:17:37 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 75 Message-ID: <81ug01$713$1@readme.uio.no> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jonas.uio.no Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!ntnu.no!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!oyvindse In article <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: > In article <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no>, oyvindse@ulrik.uio.no (\yvind Seland) wrote: > >If one really are going to discuss precipitation rates and > >such in Middle Earth, (Not that I think this is necessary > >in order to enjoy the books :-) ) I would say that > >enough water to sustain Mirkwood is more unbelievable. > >After all the river Missouri starts in the east slopes of > >the Rocky Mountains. There are no White Mountains > >in the south of the US though. > > If nature really worked the way you guys wanted it to, the Mississipi river > couldn't possibly exist, since it lies between two mountain ranges. > > Mountains do NOT block moisture. They affect wind patterns, but storms blow > across the rockies all the time, and local weather systems in the plains > states generate their own rainstorms anyway. Eh, I acknowledged the Missouri ( and Mississipi), so I know that you can get moisture across mountain ranges. The mountains do however reduce the amount of moisture. Most of the moisture in the Mid-West US comes nevertheless from the south, and not across the Rocky Mountains. This transport of moisture is especially important for what you call local weather systems. To put it in LOTR words. The great rain storms come when the warm air from the south and cold air from the north meet and make war. The same holds for storms that cross the the Rockies. Although there are some moisture left in the air masses, most of the precipitation comes from new moisture convergence from the south. This is more difficult in the Anduin vale since there is a mountain range to the south as well. Some important exceptions are near Rocky Mountains, the rain falls om both side of the water divide, and near the Great Lakes. Melting of snow is as people have mentioned also an important factor for creating rivers. Read some basic meteorology textbooks if you want more detail. I feel no need to criticize a fantasy worlds if some details of the landscape has some discrepancies in it though. Řyvind Seland ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:24:29 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 39 Message-ID: <81u9k9$f5m$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-c113.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 943892937 15542 195.167.121.241 (29 Nov 1999 16:28:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Nov 1999 16:28:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!nntp.abs.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!skynet.be!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote in message news:11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > What difference does it make? LotR is fantasy fiction, not a friggin > nature documentary for cryin out loud! In fantasy, it is "normal" for > at least some of the laws of physics as we know them to be suspended. > This is the case here, although Tolkien knew that his story did need > enough elements of "realism" in order to keep it believable and prevent > it from completely flying out into the realms of fancy. > That's an external view. There's also a story-internal way of > looking at this. The Valar do have some degree of control over ME; > whether or not there are supernatural beings that do this in the real > world; as well as our beliefs on the matter, is unimportant, the > important thing is that the Valar do exist in ME, and so therefore play > some part in what happens there, including weather. Regardsless of the > geological impossibilities, if the Valar wanted it to rain in eastern > ME, I'm sure they would be able to make it so. Surely Manwe and Ulmo > together would be able to come up with something together. > > --Dave Why the hell would the Valar violate the rules of nature so as to create Anduin? Perhaps you can find an answer for that, but until you do, your story-internal reason doesn't hold water and is just a way of saying that you don't give a damn, and that there's no reason for anyone to give a damn either. Forgive us, for differing in attitude. If you've read Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales (or the History of Middle Earth volumes) you know the great amount of detail Tolkien gave to his world, and the great efforts he made to make it consistent and provide answers. Obviously *he* gave a damn, and you'd be amazed at how many people think his books are better because of it, how many love those books *because* of this attention to detail. Aris Katsaris ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 29 Nov 1999 18:45:57 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 33 Message-ID: <81uhl5$lrr$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net><3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no><81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: : If nature really worked the way you guys wanted it to, the Mississipi : river couldn't possibly exist, since it lies between two mountain : ranges. You don't seem to read people's posts very carefully before you answer, and you use a very confident tone, as if you were stating facts, when you are actually speculating along with the rest of us. Anyway, the above statement would be right if there were a third mountain range running east-west through New Mexico, Texas, Lousiana etc. : Mountains do NOT block moisture. Mountains DO force warm humid air to rise in altitude, where the moisture condenses out because of a temperature or pressure change. Rain. I don't know the exact mechanism, but you can see it's effects on maps if you care to take a look. Take Oregon, for instance: temperate rain forest along the West Coast, and desert inland, after the mountains. : They affect wind patterns, but storms : blow across the rockies all the time, and local weather systems in the : plains states generate their own rainstorms anyway. You said it yourself: the _plains states_. Endless grass, except for the occasional Salt Flats. Mirkwood covers 100,000 square miles. Have you grokked how big that is? --Rett ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 30 Nov 1999 22:32:04 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 34 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u1z97mzsb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <81rpoj$1l0_036@news.uswest.net> <19991128145605.13871.00001013@ng-ca1.aol.com> <38424924.94742568@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: > > On 28 Nov 1999 19:56:05 GMT, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) wrote: > > >contact between two tectonic plates causing one plate to be subducted by the > >other producing the Misty Mountains....similar to the origins of the Andes > >would be the numerous metals and gems found there by the dwarves. > > Yes, the Misty Mountains do seem a lot like a volcanic/tectonic > range. According to one of Tolkiens books I read (Silm?) the misty mountains were thrown up by Melkor to hinder either the Valar getting to the Elves or the other way round. "Throw up" would suggest tectonic activity. > I don't remember any active volcanoes (Mount Doom, of course, but not > in the Misty Mountains) or earthquakes, There are enough earthquakes in the fights of the Valar in the Silm. > but maybe the plate was > altered enough in one of the major divine interventions in its history > that it's no longer active. Or simply one hit by one of them interventions. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:46:39 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 53 Message-ID: <25354-384380DF-75@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <81u9k9$f5m$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQTHy19ftLAMWvpJmsp6ecDxg0xuwIVAJm3rnSgIlucaeSGLGK+VH7N/jdq Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!nyc.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Aris Katsaris wrote: >Why the hell would the Valar violate the >rules of nature so as to create Anduin? Who knows? They're the one who are (or were) running things in ME, so it's possible that they can make whatever rules they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with Iluvatar's plans. I'm sure that Iluvatar wasn't all that concerned about a continent spanning river in the middle of ME >Your story-internal reason doesn't hold >water and is just a way of saying that >you don't give a damn, I don't. :) >Forgive us, for differing in attitude. If >you've read Silmarillion or Unfinished >Tales Which I have. >(or the History of Middle Earth volumes) >you know the great amount of detail >Tolkien gave to his world, and the great >efforts he made to make it >consistent and provide answers. I know very well that Tolkien was somewhat of a perfectionist, at least concerning his own works. I know that is one of the very reasons that the Silmarillion wasn't published in his lifetime was the fact that he could never fully complete it to his satisfaction. And while I haven't read much of HoME, I am at least somewhat aware of the breadth of material Tolkien wrote concerning his creation. >Obviously *he* gave a damn, and you'd >be amazed at how many people think his >books are better because of it, how many >love those books *because* of this >attention to detail. No argument there. A story which is written as a labor of love is, IMO, often better than one which is cranked out simply for a profit. Certainly I love the LotR as a good story, and this is probably greatly due to the amount of work which Tolkien put into it. Of course, I am entitled to my opinions on the matter, regardless of how many other people agree with me. --Dave ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <0lJ04.731$qT6.48291@laxnws02.socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:33:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 943940028 24.30.175.94 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:33:48 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:33:48 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Thiele Everett wrote in message <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se>... > > >In the LOTR chapter "The Great River" we get a bit of meteorological >detail in the form of warm wet clouds floating up from the South. >And indeed the area east of the Misty Mountains would need to receive >a lot of rain to support Mirkwood, Lorien, Fangorn and the river Anduin. >But given the layout of mountains on CJRT's map of Middle Earth, the >Anduin Plain ought to be arid, rather like Nevada/Utah. The Misty Mountains, >the range north of Gondor and the mountains surrounding Morder isolate >the region from the sea, so most of the rain in weather systems coming >from the South and West would already have been discharged before >getting into the region. The gaps at Rohan and Minas Tirith >don't look large enough. So we have to imagine an Eastern Sea, just >past Rhun, which would water the region. But this would contradict the map >again, which gives the impression of endless steppes out in that direction. >And Tolkien did specify that the warm wet clouds floated up from the South. >Did he just have an oversight here? Or are the mountain chains of Middle >Earth much lower than I thought? (Like up to about 1000 feet max, as I >pictured Weathertop being) > I see 'em as being about the caliber of the Allegheny mountains, maybe 3,000 feet, with a half-dozen higher peaks thrown in. People are able to cross them on foot in a matter of days, so there's not a lot of height or mass involved. Along that line, I don't see the Shenandoah Valley as Lorien, but it would make a good candidate....and it is on the eastern side of that ridge. We should remember that the Anduin really isn't much of a river, at least in its northern reaches. Aragorn points out (and we see) that there are stretches which are barely navigable in a small boat. ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3841e218.2987279@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:37:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 943940249 24.30.175.94 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:37:29 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:37:29 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Neil Carr wrote in message <3841e218.2987279@news.supernews.com>... >In the Letters somewhere he mentions how geologists, biologists, >economists and other specialists had critiqued much of his creation >and how it wouldn't work as described. He said something to the >effect that if he had known where all of his storytelling was going he >would have been more careful in how everything was set out. NW Middle >Earth is intended to be a primordial section of Europe and he admits >that he did not know squat about geology to be able to move it from >then till now. > > He also said he deliberately constructed it to be unlike any real region of today's world, so people wouldn't try to set up an allegory. Could be, that in doing so he set a trap for himself. ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 30 Nov 1999 06:42:54 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 30 Message-ID: <81vrle$qt6$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><0lJ04.731$qT6.48291@laxnws02.socal.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 lurker@home (bluesbird@crosswinds.net) wrote: : I see 'em [the Misty Mountains] as being about the caliber of the : Allegheny mountains, maybe 3,000 feet, with a half-dozen higher peaks : thrown in. People are able to cross them on foot in a matter of days, so : there's not a lot of height or mass involved. Along that line, I don't : see the Shenandoah Valley as Lorien, but it would make a good : candidate....and it is on the eastern side of that ridge. : We should remember that the Anduin really isn't much of a river, at least : in its northern reaches. Aragorn points out (and we see) that there are : stretches which are barely navigable in a small boat. I appreciate that you looked for evidence which is findable in the text for arguing your position, both as to the size of the mountains and the river. My picture of the Misty Mountains was more like the Rockies, but you have a good point, that (weather and orc ambushes aside) they are crossable fairly quickly on foot. My main textual reasons for thinking Anduin is quite large is the statement by Celeborn (I think) to the effect that a company with baggage can not cross it without boats "between Lorien and Gondor", and that it is described as being a 'long bowshot' in width, i.e. standing on its shore you could conceivable get an arrow in you from someone on its opposite shore. How far is that? --Rett ###### From: "Gary E. Masters" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:06:42 -0600 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 46 Message-ID: <38442042.BE838F12@tamiu.edu> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <81r0qj$ams$2@oden.abc.se> <81rmpr$1l0_010@news.uswest.net> <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se> <81rpma$1l0_034@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a2e10b.tamiu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1999 19:11:14 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: Michael Martinez Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail I am right on the Rio Grande (in Laredo) and know that there once were palm forest along its banks. However, there are different factors that affect how much rain a forest needs. In north Texas (north of Dallas and Forth Worth) there are "fingers" of wooded land that extend from Oklahoma. These are areas where there is a layer of rock a few inches under the top soil. It retains rain water and allows the trees to grow. Where there is no rock, there are no trees. One could imagine something like this where the trees are. Regards, Gary Masters Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <81rng9$ck8$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > >Michael Martinez (Michael@xenite.org) wrote: > > > >: No, there were forests to the east of the Iron Hills, Carnen, and Rhun. > >: Mirkwood is of course watered by the Forest River and Celduin, and > >: probably numerous smaller streams which begin the highlands inside > >: and outside the forest. > > > >You mean the way the Nile waters large natural forests on both its > >banks? > > There are marshes along both rivers. The presence of the marshes indicates > the waters from the rivers get back into the forest. Of course, most of > Mirkwood probably just depends on rainfall. > > There are plenty of potential sources for supportive weather and water in > Middle-earth. New Mexico is largely desert/arid land, but there are forests > along the rivers. I live close to the Rio Grande and we have a lot of trees > in our area, but you only have to drive a couple of miles to get out into the > flat, empty areas. > > There are, however, forests throughout the state, especially in the highlands. > > -- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Nicolas Masson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:58:46 +0100 Organization: Ecole Centrale Paris Message-ID: <3843CA06.E6B489E8@cti.ecp.fr> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <0lJ04.731$qT6.48291@laxnws02.socal.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: masson.via.ecp.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: smilodon.ecp.fr 943966412 23601 138.195.137.240 (30 Nov 1999 12:53:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ecp.fr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1999 12:53:32 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Lines: 70 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.tli.de!grolier!MGN!jussieu.fr!smilodon.ecp.fr!not-for-mail "lurker@home" wrote: > > Thiele Everett wrote in message <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se>... > >Or are the mountain chains of Middle > >Earth much lower than I thought? (Like up to about 1000 feet max, as I > >pictured Weathertop being) > > > > I see 'em as being about the caliber of the Allegheny mountains, maybe 3,000 > feet, with a half-dozen higher peaks thrown in. People are able to cross > them on foot in a matter of days, so there's not a lot of height or mass > involved. I believe that the mountain ranges of M.E. were more the "alpine" caliber, the peaks going up to 3000-5000 meters (9000 to 16000 ft). I've been looking for some evidence for this in "the ring goes south", here is what I found : "For two more nights they marched on, climbing steadily but ever more slowly as the road wound up into the hills, and the mountains towered up nearer and nearer." So it already takes two marches to reach the feet of the mountains. The climbing is said to be both steady and slow, but after two full marches, the fellowship can be expected to be some 500-1000m above the plain (1600-3300ft) -remember that on a good mountain path any untrained person can walk up 1000 vertical feet an hour. And even then, the misty mountains are still towering above them. Aragorn : "Further south there are no passes, till one comes to the gap of Rohan" According to Aragorn, the Redhorn Gate is the only pass until Rohan, then it must be one of the lowest spots in the Misty Mountains Gandalf : "We must go with all the speed that we can, even so it will take us more than two marches before we reach the top of the pass" So there is at least 2 more days of sheer and fast climbing ahead of them. From my alpine experience, it can mean 2500 to 4000 more meters towards the pass (8000-13000 ft), meaning that the pass is 3000-5000m over the plain (10000-16000 ft). Boromir : "I was born under the shadow of the White Mountains, and know somethinf of journeys in the high places". Boromir compares the Misty Mountains with the White Mountains. What do we know about them ? There is some evidence about them in "The Steward and the King" : "[Gandalf] brought [Aragorn] to the southern feet of Mount Mindolluin [...] they came to high field below the snows that clad the lofty peaks [...] out of the very edge of the snow, there sprang a sapling tree." This happens on the 25th of June, according to Appendix B. So Mindolluin is high enough to have some snow left on its south or south-east side in June, in a country with a "mediterranean" climate (Ithilien is mediterranean, is it not ?). That means 2500m (8000 ft) above sea level at least. Is this enough evidence or should I go on ? -- Nicolas Masson Ecole Centrale Paris, promotion 2000 "Alae ! Ered en Echoriath, ered e'mbar nin !" ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) From: rpresser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <81u9k9$f5m$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E8E614F5pt101594@199.45.45.11> User-Agent: Xnews/2.11.08 Lines: 36 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:53:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.75 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 943973621 151.204.202.75 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:53:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:53:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.skycache.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.katsaris@otenet.gr (Aris Katsaris).wrote.posted.offered: >Why the hell would the Valar violate the rules of nature so as to create >Anduin? Perhaps the same reason they violated the rules of nature to make possible such things as rings that make you invisible, or little glass phials containing as much light as a star with no apparent power source, or seagoing ships flying through the air carrying a man with a gem on his brow that also generates as much light as a star. [snip] >Forgive us, for differing in attitude. If you've read Silmarillion or >Unfinished Tales (or the History of Middle Earth volumes) you know the >great amount of detail Tolkien gave to his world, and the great efforts >he made to make it consistent and provide answers. So maybe he missed a few spots, or deliberately ignored a few topics. He was himself human, not a Vala or even an Elf. >Obviously *he* gave a damn, and you'd be amazed at how many people think >his books are better because of it, how many love those books *because* >of this attention to detail. I am one of those people, but I don't sweat it when areas completely outside Tolkien's expertise show flaws. -- Ross Presser ross_presser@imtek.com "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:27:11 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <81rpoj$1l0_036@news.uswest.net> <19991128145605.13871.00001013@ng-ca1.aol.com> <38424924.94742568@news.pc-intouch.com> <6u1z97mzsb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail On 30 Nov 1999 22:32:04 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: >According to one of Tolkiens books I read (Silm?) the misty mountains >were thrown up by Melkor to hinder either the Valar getting to the >Elves or the other way round. > >"Throw up" would suggest tectonic activity. Or perhaps something he ate? May the Farce Be With You the softrat ----- God? I'm no God! God has MERCY! ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:26:46 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 44 Message-ID: <821j7g$8a8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <81u9k9$f5m$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8E8E614F5pt101594@199.45.45.11> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-d034.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 944001072 8520 195.167.118.34 (30 Nov 1999 22:31:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 1999 22:31:12 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!uunet!ams.uu.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Ross Presser wrote in message news:8E8E614F5pt101594@199.45.45.11... > alt.distinguished.katsaris@otenet.gr (Aris > Katsaris).wrote.posted.offered: > > >Why the hell would the Valar violate the rules of nature so as to create > >Anduin? > > Perhaps the same reason they violated the rules of nature to make > possible such things as rings that make you invisible, Sauron and the elves did those for good reason. > or little glass > phials containing as much light as a star with no apparent power source, Galadriel did that for good reason. > or seagoing ships flying through the air carrying a man with a gem on his > brow that also generates as much light as a star. The Valar did that for good reason. All three of the above reasons being different by the way. Which of them do you think applied to Anduin? > >Obviously *he* gave a damn, and you'd be amazed at how many people think > >his books are better because of it, how many love those books *because* > >of this attention to detail. > > I am one of those people, but I don't sweat it when areas completely > outside Tolkien's expertise show flaws. Neither do I. I can say "It's a flaw or error on Tolkien's behalf". But debating such questions (to see for starters if it truly is a flaw) is fun... It's the need for justifications the type of "The Valar made it happen for reasons beyond our reckoning" that I can't see the reason of... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><0lJ04.731$qT6.48291@laxnws02.socal.rr.com> <81vrle$qt6$1@oden.abc.se> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 56 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 06:43:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944030618 24.30.175.94 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:43:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:43:38 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Thiele Everett wrote in message <81vrle$qt6$1@oden.abc.se>... >lurker@home (bluesbird@crosswinds.net) wrote: > > >: I see 'em [the Misty Mountains] as being about the caliber of the >: Allegheny mountains, maybe 3,000 feet, with a half-dozen higher peaks >: thrown in. People are able to cross them on foot in a matter of days, so >: there's not a lot of height or mass involved. Along that line, I don't >: see the Shenandoah Valley as Lorien, but it would make a good >: candidate....and it is on the eastern side of that ridge. > >: We should remember that the Anduin really isn't much of a river, at least >: in its northern reaches. Aragorn points out (and we see) that there are >: stretches which are barely navigable in a small boat. > >I appreciate that you looked for evidence which is findable in the text >for arguing your position, both as to the size of the mountains and >the river. My picture of the Misty Mountains was more like the Rockies, >but you have a good point, that (weather and orc ambushes aside) they >are crossable fairly quickly on foot. > >My main textual reasons for thinking Anduin is quite large is the statement >by Celeborn (I think) to the effect that a company with baggage can >not cross it without boats "between Lorien and Gondor", and that it >is described as being a 'long bowshot' in width, i.e. standing on its >shore you could conceivable get an arrow in you from someone on its >opposite shore. How far is that? > That's a good point. I'd guess that a simple straight bow of wood could shoot a hundred yards with reasonable accuracy, so we could say that's an OK width. Orcs could shoot their arrows "far across" the water according to Aragorn, but they'd be lobbing them for distance, not accuracy. He revealed that fact before they reached Rohan, so he may have been talking about the upper river, which he calls a "stream" in that passage. Still, a hundred-yard width makes a respectable river in anybody's book, although it only gets that big in the lower reaches, toward the Entwash in Rohan. The river should widen significantly in Rohan, because it is running through lands that are much flatter than the upper reaches. The book's map confirms this by showing the river is very sinuous below the Field of Celebrant. That's a feature of flatland streams. So, we may be talking wide but shallow -- or we may not -- who can say? BTW, Rauros is an accurate feature. Virtually every river that flows from a continent into the sea has either a falls or a significant rapids somewhere upstream, marking the divide between the inland areas and the coastal plain. For some, like the Mississippi, it's FAR upstream, and the river is still a major trade artery. The way people build their settlements, there's almost always a city there, because that's usually the limit of navigability and the commerce it brings. These days, Osgiliath or a sister city would be up near Rauros because of the inland trade opportunities. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3844d0c4.99879336@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <81u8q3$mot$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:42:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944033961 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:39:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:39:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.giganews.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!203-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:15:12 GMT, Robert Carnegie wrote: >Heck, if the magical Force in _Star Wars_ is generated by all >living things which contain mitochondrial chlorates, or whatever You realize, of course, that nobody ever says in _Star Wars_ that the Force is *generated* by midichlorians. What they say is that midichlorians are reliable *indicators* of the strength of the Force in a particular person. This doesn't mean they have anything to do with generating it--they might very well *feed* on it, which would mean they'd exist in greater numbers in people who have more of it. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3844d222.100229497@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <0lJ04.731$qT6.48291@laxnws02.socal.rr.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:49:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944034374 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:46:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:46:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!203-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:33:48 GMT, "lurker@home" wrote: >We should remember that the Anduin really isn't much of a river, at least in >its northern reaches. Aragorn points out (and we see) that there are >stretches which are barely navigable in a small boat. That doesn't say much about how much of a river it is. It might be really wide and shallow in places. It might be clogged with debris. (Have you seen _The African Queen_? Great movie.) It might even be 'barely navigable' in the sense that it's so fast and powerful that your small boat will flip over, and you need a bigger boat! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <822mah$2i0_038@news.uswest.net> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <81u8q3$mot$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3844d0c4.99879336@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:30:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944036812 207.224.149.166 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 02:26:52 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 02:26:52 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3844d0c4.99879336@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:15:12 GMT, Robert Carnegie > wrote: > >>Heck, if the magical Force in _Star Wars_ is generated by all >>living things which contain mitochondrial chlorates, or whatever > >You realize, of course, that nobody ever says in _Star Wars_ that the >Force is *generated* by midichlorians. > >What they say is that midichlorians are reliable *indicators* of the >strength of the Force in a particular person. This doesn't mean they >have anything to do with generating it--they might very well *feed* on >it, which would mean they'd exist in greater numbers in people who >have more of it. Midichlorians are the "interface" between intelligent living beings and the Force. It doesn't bother me that Obi-Wan didn't dwell on Midi-Chlorian counts with Luke Skywalker. He knew where the kid came from to begin with, and he had a pretty good idea of what his heritage would give him. Also, the Jedi/Republic technologies seem to have been largely lost under the Empire. Who was going to care about Midi-chlorians after Palpatine got through slaughtering everyone who knew about them anyway? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:35:17 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 16:27:57 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Quoth Morgion666 : >> That's what pisses me off, people like him. I don't think they even >> like the books if all they do is bitch about them. > >I see that you're rather new here! Quite a few of us are "like him", >as far as I can tell: we enjoy exploring every detail about >Middle-earth that we can find in order to come to a better >understanding of it in the end. Also, for me and I suspect for others, is the delight in a world that "makes sense" more than the real world in some ways. >At any rate, _I_ like the books... love them, in fact. I have yet to >find another author whose invented world can withstand close scrutiny >as well as Tolkien's can, and that very resilience makes it that much >more real for me. I think this is the reason why Tolkien's work is great fantasy, and nothing I have seen has come close. It's not the only criterion, certainly, but one criterion of great fiction is that it draws you into its world. The more detailed and "rich" that world is, the further in you are drawn. Like our monkey ancestors, we like to poke and prod into odd corners and extend our understanding, our mental map of this world. Compare to say Fritz Lieber's sword and sorcery books -- they're fun, but you don't see people discussing them all day long because their world isn't complex enough to bear such discussion, or to make people care about it. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:42:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944059359 24.30.175.94 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 06:42:39 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 06:42:39 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com>... >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:18:15 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >[snip] > >>There was plenty of ice north of the Ered Mithrin and thus a reasonable source >>of moisture to generate weather. > >I suppose, but there's something bizarre and counterintuitive about >the idea of the moisture coming out of the north. When moisture comes >from the ocean, there's a difference in surface heat absorption that >drives the convection effects that push the moisture inland. I don't >see anything similar in the north. (Where does the air *come from*? >There would have to be a constant air current, like a jet stream, >going north from the other side of the world, over the north pole >(this is Third Age, so there *is* a north pole), and then south into >Eriador. Find me one example of that kind of air current.) > The Alaska Current is what turns America's Pacific Northwest region into a wet-'n-wacky wonderland. Most of the Olympic Penninsula qualifies as rain forest. Their big weather comes whuppin' down out of the northwest, right along that current. ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:56:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944060190 24.30.175.94 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 06:56:30 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 06:56:30 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net>... >In article <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no>, oyvindse@ulrik.uio.no (\yvind Seland) wrote: >>If one really are going to discuss precipitation rates and >>such in Middle Earth, (Not that I think this is necessary >>in order to enjoy the books :-) ) I would say that >>enough water to sustain Mirkwood is more unbelievable. >>After all the river Missouri starts in the east slopes of >>the Rocky Mountains. There are no White Mountains >>in the south of the US though. > >If nature really worked the way you guys wanted it to, the Mississipi river >couldn't possibly exist, since it lies between two mountain ranges. > >Mountains do NOT block moisture. They affect wind patterns, but storms blow >across the rockies all the time, and local weather systems in the plains >states generate their own rainstorms anyway. > Sure they do. They just don't block it ALL. Pasadena's on one side of my local ridge, Barstow's on the other. One's nice and green, the other's a Tumbleweed Hell. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823gdv$1a8_006@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:55:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944063546 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:52:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:52:26 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , "lurker@home" wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote in message <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net>... >>Mountains do NOT block moisture. They affect wind patterns, but storms >>blow across the rockies all the time, and local weather systems in the >>plains states generate their own rainstorms anyway. > >Sure they do. They just don't block it ALL. Pasadena's on one side of my >local ridge, Barstow's on the other. One's nice and green, the other's a >Tumbleweed Hell. Okay, anyone who wants a quick lesson in basic meteorology and how mountains help form clouds may look at THIS Web site: http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/org.rxml It's not the mountain that determine where the rain drops. Basically, with mountains, you get lots of cloud cover. That doesn't mean you'll get the same amount of rainfall on both faces of the mountain, but you WILL get clouds passing over the mountain (as happens every day with the Rockies). Those clouds will eventually drop their moisture. They may or may not mix with clouds from other weather systems. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 02 Dec 1999 00:00:26 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uu2m26zcl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se><0lJ04.731$qT6.48291@laxnws02.socal.rr.com > <81vrle$qt6$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "lurker@home" writes: > > Thiele Everett wrote in message <81vrle$qt6$1@oden.abc.se>... > > > >not cross it without boats "between Lorien and Gondor", and that it > >is described as being a 'long bowshot' in width, i.e. standing on its > >shore you could conceivable get an arrow in you from someone on its > >opposite shore. How far is that? > > That's a good point. I'd guess that a simple straight bow of wood could > shoot a hundred yards with reasonable accuracy, so we could say that's an OK > width. My personal experienca as an (beginner) archer is that I can get about 2-4" deviation from target middle at 30 yards using a 50lb longbow. Club friends who have more experience and use modern material routinely are at 1-2" deviation at 50 yards. If you forsake accuracy (Tolkien did say "long bowshot", which only implies the arrow getting over to the other side, not hitting an small target), then the distance grows considerably. The English archers at the battle of Crecy opened fire on the French (massive target, bunch of over 1000 people) at 250 yards, using 110lb longbows. Turkish "flight bows" (optimised for sport distance shooting) got over 1000 yards, centuries ago. Present world record is somewhere in 1400-1500 yards. > Orcs could shoot their arrows "far across" the water according to > Aragorn, but they'd be lobbing them for distance, not accuracy. You do not need accuracy when your target is an entire army. Missing the person you aimed at by 10 yards simply gets the one 10 persions further in that direction. What counts in an military situation is amount of firepower (see remarks about Legolas running out of arrows). The French at Crecy had crossbows (1/5-1/3 reload rate), they lost badly, despite more accuracy and punch per shot. > Still, a hundred-yard width makes a respectable river in anybody's book, Even with an Orc bow I would assume 300 yards to be in it. So that is a considerable river. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <38406B6C.907B9F26@erols.com> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 01:48:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944099287 24.30.175.94 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:48:07 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:48:07 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Flame of the West wrote in message <38406B6C.907B9F26@erols.com>... >Stan Brown wrote: > >> So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? > >If you look among the advertisements in the Red Book >of Westmarch, you'll find one entitled "Visit the Great >River" from the Lothlórien Tourist Bureau. Apparently, >after Galadriel took off, Celeborn tried to make a quick >buck by opening up the place to Men and Dwarves. >It was he who coined the name "Great River" to what >was originally a no-account creek. He was well known >for advising visitors to head down the Anduin by boat. > He just couldn't stand the competition from The Rauros Belle, Paddlewheel And Dinner Theater Casino ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 36 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 01:55:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944099739 24.30.175.94 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:55:39 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:55:39 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Thiele Everett wrote in message <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se>... >Morgion666 (morgion666@my-deja.com) wrote: >: In article <19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com>, >: cethiesus@aol.commy-nuts (Cethiesus) wrote: >: > >Do you think anyone gives a damn? You don't have to dissect every >: > >friggin' detail of the books, just read them and enjoy them. > >: > Obviously someone does enough to write all this about it. > >: That's what pisses me off, people like him. >: I don't think they even like >: the books if all they do is bitch about them. >: Oooh, Anduin can't exist, big f*cking deal! Does it look like I care? > >Dear Morgion666, > >My question was not at all intended as putting down Tolkien or his >works. I was trying to see what information or speculation the >knowledgable people on this group might provide on this question. >I am happy with the answers they have given. If I have offended >you, please accept my apology. > Poop on apolgies! It was a gud kwestion, and if it doesn't appeal to some of the folks, so what? -- or to borrow a turn of phrase, do you think anyone gives a damn whether somebody (who may or may not have terminal constipation) is pleased? You don't have to dissect every friggin' detail of the books, but it's fun, so let's do it! By the way, do you think the Balrogi have wings? ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> <823gdv$1a8_006@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 05:00:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944110834 24.30.175.94 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:00:34 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:00:34 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <823gdv$1a8_006@news.uswest.net>... >In article , "lurker@home" wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote in message <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net>... >>>Mountains do NOT block moisture. They affect wind patterns, but storms >>>blow across the rockies all the time, and local weather systems in the >>>plains states generate their own rainstorms anyway. >> >>Sure they do. They just don't block it ALL. Pasadena's on one side of my >>local ridge, Barstow's on the other. One's nice and green, the other's a >>Tumbleweed Hell. > >Okay, anyone who wants a quick lesson in basic meteorology and how mountains >help form clouds may look at THIS Web site: >http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/org.rxml > >It's not the mountain that determine where the rain drops. > >Basically, with mountains, you get lots of cloud cover. That doesn't mean >you'll get the same amount of rainfall on both faces of the mountain, but you >WILL get clouds passing over the mountain (as happens every day with the >Rockies). > >Those clouds will eventually drop their moisture. They may or may not mix >with clouds from other weather systems. > > It's even simpler than that. As the air mass climbs over the ridge, it cools and precipitates. Sometimes that means rain, sometimes not. On the other side, it falls to a lower level and warms again. Without the water it was carrying on the upwind side, it ends up dry. Low mountains, kinda' dry; high mountains, reeeal dry. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825e1n$1pg_008@news.uswest.net> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <3840e8d2.4535196@news.pc-intouch.com> <81rmmm$1l0_008@news.uswest.net> <81sr9n$3f4_020@news.uswest.net> <3842aaea.119776470@news.pc-intouch.com> <81ubn4$53u$1@readme.uio.no> <81ue6h$23k_012@news.uswest.net> <823gdv$1a8_006@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:27:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944126640 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:24:00 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:24:00 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , "lurker@home" wrote: >It's even simpler than that. As the air mass climbs over the ridge, it cools >and precipitates. Sometimes that means rain, sometimes not. On the other >side, it falls to a lower level and warms again. Without the water it was >carrying on the upwind side, it ends up dry. Low mountains, kinda' dry; high >mountains, reeeal dry. So much for all that snow melt we get every Spring from Colorado.... -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 2 Dec 1999 09:02:10 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 15 Message-ID: <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news1.global-ip.net!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 lurker@home (bluesbird@crosswinds.net) wrote: : By the way, do you think the Balrogi have wings? That's easy. Since the Balrog Gandalf fought could turn itself into a 'thing of slime' it could probably assume winged, wingless, or wing-haloed forms at will. It's already proved itself to be a shapeshifter. --Rett ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se> Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:21:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 944140898 24.30.175.94 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 05:21:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 05:21:38 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws01.socal.rr.com!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Thiele Everett wrote in message <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se>... >lurker@home (bluesbird@crosswinds.net) wrote: > >: By the way, do you think the Balrogi have wings? > >That's easy. Since the Balrog Gandalf fought could turn itself >into a 'thing of slime' it could probably assume winged, >wingless, or wing-haloed forms at will. It's already proved >itself to be a shapeshifter. > Touche'!! ###### From: Robert Carnegie Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:22:11 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <825va9$9ck$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991129014307.12451.00000036@ngol01.aol.com> <11666-38423A1B-42@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <81u8q3$mot$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3844d0c4.99879336@news.pc-intouch.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.249.253 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Dec 02 14:22:11 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (Windows 4.10;US) Opera 3.60 [en] X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 ECSUNURS1, 1.0 x30.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 62.253.249.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrja_carnegie Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <3844d0c4.99879336@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:15:12 GMT, Robert Carnegie > wrote: > > >Heck, if the magical Force in _Star Wars_ is generated by all > >living things which contain mitochondrial chlorates, or whatever > > You realize, of course, that nobody ever says in _Star Wars_ that the > Force is *generated* by midichlorians. > > What they say is that midichlorians are reliable *indicators* of the > strength of the Force in a particular person. This doesn't mean they > have anything to do with generating it--they might very well *feed* on > it, which would mean they'd exist in greater numbers in people who > have more of it. Okay. I figured it was the reason why Star Wars people have the Force and we don't. But on the principle I thought I detected there, we could borrow from Larry Niven's _The Magic Goes Away_ an "explanation" for how Tolkien's magical world turned into our, um, mundane one - and for how Tolkien can have forests, rivers, etc., in unlikely configurations. Robert Carnegie Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Message-ID: References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 12 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:03:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 944172233 208.170.95.26 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:03:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:03:53 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > That's easy. Since the Balrog Gandalf fought could turn itself > into a 'thing of slime' it could probably assume winged, > wingless, or wing-haloed forms at will. It's already proved > itself to be a shapeshifter. In just the same way, I prove my shape-shifting abilities when I emerge from underneath my automobile as a thing of grime. "Rosie! Burn the train tickets! We're gonna grow wings and fly to Hoboken!" DS ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <826t2v$1eg_012@news.uswest.net> References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:50:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.178 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944174807 207.224.148.178 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:46:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:46:47 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: >In article <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) wrote: > >> That's easy. Since the Balrog Gandalf fought could turn itself >> into a 'thing of slime' it could probably assume winged, >> wingless, or wing-haloed forms at will. It's already proved >> itself to be a shapeshifter. > > In just the same way, I prove my shape-shifting abilities when I emerge >from underneath my automobile as a thing of grime. Odd. Most people get their grime from the ground or the vehicle. Ah well. Go bathe, David, and take a bite out of grime. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: 4 Dec 1999 09:09:15 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 26 Message-ID: <82alnr$ira$1@oden.abc.se> References: <81p7sf$d0k$1@nnrp1.deja.com><19991127190350.14639.00000873@ng-fs1.aol.com> <81rn26$v8i$1@nnrp1.deja.com><81rvab$d88$1@oden.abc.se> <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 David Salo (dsalo@usa.net) wrote: : In article <825cii$mvl$1@oden.abc.se>, m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) : wrote: : : > That's easy. Since the Balrog Gandalf fought could turn itself : > into a 'thing of slime' it could probably assume winged, : > wingless, or wing-haloed forms at will. It's already proved : > itself to be a shapeshifter. : In just the same way, I prove my shape-shifting abilities when I : emerge from underneath my automobile as a thing of grime. : "Rosie! Burn the train tickets! We're gonna grow wings and fly : to Hoboken!" Ahh... so you mean it retained its basic form, but was just all slimy, wings and all? That's another way to read it, of course. (All I am going on now is the passage where Gandalf relates the battle to L, A and G in Fangorn) I had pictured the 'thing of slime' as a kind of giant, green, bubbly, vigorous amoeba, but of course there's no reason why my image has to be right and yours wrong or vice versa (again just working from the passage in question.) Thanks for your input, which was worth a hearty belly laugh. --Rett ###### From: Gregory Graham Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Anduin can't exist (Weather patterns and geology of ME) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:46:18 -0600 Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Lines: 27 Message-ID: <385D360A.CF9C4F79@fnal.gov> References: <81o6ts$2oo$1@oden.abc.se> <38406B6C.907B9F26@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d0mino.fnal.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en CC: ggraham@fnal.gov Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info1.fnal.gov!newscli.fnal.gov!not-for-mail "lurker@home" wrote: > Flame of the West wrote in message <38406B6C.907B9F26@erols.com>... > >Stan Brown wrote: > > > >> So how does the Anduin become the "great" river? > > > >If you look among the advertisements in the Red Book > >of Westmarch, you'll find one entitled "Visit the Great > >River" from the Lothlórien Tourist Bureau. Apparently, > >after Galadriel took off, Celeborn tried to make a quick > >buck by opening up the place to Men and Dwarves. > >It was he who coined the name "Great River" to what > >was originally a no-account creek. He was well known > >for advising visitors to head down the Anduin by boat. > > > > He just couldn't stand the competition from The Rauros Belle, Paddlewheel > And Dinner Theater Casino But I thought that gambling was legal in the Elf-realms. Certainly, since their destinies are ruled by fate, they can rake in at mortals' expense. -Greg Graham --