From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: the Silmarils Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Nov 1999 12:14:14 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I've read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find anything. I may have missed something...... Josie ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:38:33 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <383c05de.8145550@enews.newsguy.com> References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-517.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews5 On 24 Nov 1999 12:14:14 GMT, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) posted the following: >I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I've >read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find anything. I may have missed >something...... There's nothing concrete, IIRC. But you can infer size and shape from other statements in the Silm. They were small enough for someone to hold clasped in their hand (Beren). They could be fit into a crown or a necklace. I've always visioned them as small, smooth, and round, and an amber color with a white light streaming out from them. -Chris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils From: rpresser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E887A2E7pt101594@199.45.45.11> User-Agent: Xnews/2.11.08 Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:14:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.33 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 943460045 151.204.202.33 (Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:14:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:14:05 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat).wrote.posted.offered: >I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the Silmarils. >I've read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find anything. I may >have missed something...... As for size, they were smaller than Eärandil's forehead, and smaller than Beren's hand ... not much help I realize. -- Ross Presser ross_presser@imtek.com "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:02:59 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <81hcp0$7kc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 24 19:02:59 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x41.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com>, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) wrote: > I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I've > read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find anything. I may have missed > something...... > > Josie > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:10:39 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <81hd7c$7qp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 24 19:10:39 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x21.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!windy.ip.versatel.net!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Dear Josie, There is nothing in Sil that definitively gives dimensions for the Silmarils. IMO they are circular cut, round (but much narrower from front to rear than from top to bottom), shine with an intense radiant light, and are approx 8 - 10 inches from top to bottom. I would assume they are fairly heavy for their size as well. I don't think they are facet cut, but they certainly could be. Once again, this is just my mental image of them. I'm sure one of the other regulars has a better idea of what they actually looked like. Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:01:41 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 38 Message-ID: <81i207$769$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.113 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 943491911 7369 12.79.22.113 (25 Nov 1999 01:05:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 01:05:11 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Josie Caat wrote in message news:19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com... > I want to be realistic about this and was hoping for some > references in regards to the size and shape of the Silmarils. "As three great jewels they were in form. ... Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared... Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor... Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before." Sil, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor Of particular note is that there are four images from Tolkien himself which might reasonably be suspected to represent Silmarils. The 'heraldic devices' of Feanor, Beren and Earendil each show what appears to be a gem of some sort radiating light. All give an impression of being faceted, which would be in keeping with the 'crystal of diamonds' reference above. Further there is a device for the Silmarils themselves, showing three faceted white spheroids against the backdrop of a tree. Given the above I'd expect them to be faceted, but otherwise close to spherical. They should be of considerable size for gemstones, but not too large for Beren to have concealed one in his hand. Their light should be a mixed gold and silver, but they should also take in and then project a rainbow nimbus of colors from surrounding light. Whether the light should lurk in the heart of the Silmarils or fill them to brimming is difficult to discern... it's possible that both are accurate in differing circumstances. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> <81hd7c$7qp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:49:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.195 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943479988 207.224.147.195 (Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:46:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:46:28 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <81hd7c$7qp$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > Dear Josie, > > There is nothing in Sil that definitively gives dimensions for the >Silmarils. IMO they are circular cut, round (but much narrower from >front to rear than from top to bottom), shine with an intense radiant >light, and are approx 8 - 10 inches from top to bottom. I would assume >they are fairly heavy for their size as well. I don't think they are >facet cut, but they certainly could be. Geeze, Earendil must have had an iron collar to hold his head up! 8-10 inches? Stop and think about that. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:58:14 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAjFsN5/6eumwKQKP9h16ZRJvhbzgCFQCfS1JquaTAkDenly8uajEh20luoA== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspeer1.nac.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >8-10 inches? Stop and think about that. Yes, it seemed a bit large for me as well. I suppose he may have mixed up inches and centimeters. Myself, I picture the Silmarils being about half that in size, although that does seem a little large as well. --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:01:00 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <28992-383CB47C-11@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQEI5RAsYG2daug8s49Wp6BdU+cIQIVAI8kghpijpY1R4030+7cavGAkLMu Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Josie Caat wrote: >the shape: spherical, triangular, or >standard cut? I've always pictures them as being spherical, but faceted. --Dave ###### From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Nov 1999 23:47:33 GMT References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!router1.news.adelphia.net!news.hyperioncom.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Josie wrote: >I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the >Silmarils.  I've read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't >find anything.  I may have missed something..... Paul wrote: >There is nothing in Sil that definitively gives dimensions >for the Silmarils.  IMO they are circular cut, round (but >much narrower from front to rear than from top to bottom), >shine with an intense radiant light, and are approx 8 - 10 >inches from top to bottom.  I would assume they are fairly >heavy for their size as well.  I don't think they are facet >cut, but they certainly could be. Michael Martinez wrote: >Geeze, Earendil must have had an iron collar to hold his >head up! >8-10 inches? Stop and think about that. I want to be realistic about this and was hoping for some references in regards to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I will assume that all three were the same size and shape. Since a Silmaril was used in Morgoth's crown, a necklace, fit into Beren's hand, and was worn on Earendil's brow it can't be larger than 100 carats (the Hope Diamond is 44.5 carats). At 100 carats a standard brilliant cut a diamond is approx. 2" in diameter. Thoughts on larger or smaller sizes are appreciated. Also..the shape: spherical, triangular, or standard cut? Thanks, Josie ###### From: Randy Simcox Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 00:06:32 -0800 Organization: Boardgames University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.20.9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zook.lafn.org 943517202 11610 192.168.20.9 (25 Nov 1999 08:06:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lafn.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 08:06:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.lafn.org!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote: > > Michael Martinez wrote: > > >8-10 inches? Stop and think about that. > > Yes, it seemed a bit large for me as well. I suppose he may have mixed > up inches and centimeters. Myself, I picture the Silmarils being about > half that in size, although that does seem a little large as well. > > --Dave It's like the Palantiri. From Pippen's observations I sorta figured it at about 6 inches in diameter... something Grima could easily throw out a window. When I find out it's minimum size is a foot in diameter and extremely heavy (maybe 40 to 100 lbs) I couldn't believe it. Randy ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81i75r$1cc_020@news.uswest.net> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 02:33:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.188 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943497034 207.224.147.188 (Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:30:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:30:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com>, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) wrote: >I want to be realistic about this and was hoping for some references in regards >to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I will assume that all three were the >same size and shape. Since a Silmaril was used in Morgoth's crown, a necklace, >fit into Beren's hand, and was worn on Earendil's brow it can't be larger than >100 carats (the Hope Diamond is 44.5 carats). At 100 carats a standard >brilliant cut a diamond is approx. 2" in diameter. Thoughts on larger or >smaller sizes are appreciated. Also..the shape: spherical, triangular, or >standard cut? 2"/100 carats may be close to what Tolkien had in mind. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:47:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.240 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943548286 209.181.118.240 (Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:44:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:44:46 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com>, Randy Simcox wrote: >It's like the Palantiri. From Pippen's observations I sorta figured it at about >6 inches in diameter... something Grima could easily throw out a window. When I >find out it's minimum size is a foot in diameter and extremely heavy (maybe 40 >to 100 lbs) I couldn't believe it. Where did you come by the weight of 40-100 pounds? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Randy Simcox Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:12:19 -0800 Organization: Boardgames University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.16.28 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zook.lafn.org 943582346 25457 192.168.16.28 (26 Nov 1999 02:12:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lafn.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1999 02:12:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.lafn.org!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com>, Randy Simcox wrote: > >It's like the Palantiri. From Pippen's observations I sorta figured it at about > >6 inches in diameter... something Grima could easily throw out a window. When I > >find out it's minimum size is a foot in diameter and extremely heavy (maybe 40 > >to 100 lbs) I couldn't believe it. > > Where did you come by the weight of 40-100 pounds? That was just an extrapolation. The smallest was 12 inches in diameter and we have no idea if the Orthanc Stone was this size or bigger. They were said to be "very heavy"... well most assume something 12 inches across and glass-like would be heavy and this is said to be "very heavy." A 16 lb bowling ball is about 8 inches in diameter so a 12 inch diameter object would have more than 3x the volume. It would work out to be a 54 lb ball. Glass is heavy and I probably just assumed it wasn't a hollow shell. Since it could be bigger than 12 inches I just gave a wide spread and said 40-100 lbs, figuring it likely fell somewhere in between. But whatever, It sure is Bigger and heavier than my thoughts when I read LOTR. I was thinking glass paperweight that could fit in the palm of the hand...5 or 6 inches maybe. Randy ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:17:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <81k91j$64o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> <81hd7c$7qp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.77.101.38 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Nov 25 21:17:41 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 98; Compaq) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x21.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.77.101.38 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Mr. Martinez's thoughts: "Geeze, Earendil must have had an iron collar to hold his head up! 8-10 inches? Stop and think about that." Dear Micheal, Must have been on drugs when I wrote that. My thoughts at the time were that Feanor was a very large person (almost 7 feet tall) and one of them was supposed to pretty much fill up his hand. So, if he had pretty big hands, they wouldn't be much smaller in area. I guess they would be much lighter than that, though. Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Randy Simcox Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:26:53 -0800 Organization: Boardgames University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <383E363D.277ED4CC@Snakebite.com> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com> <81kv5b$1p0_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.11.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zook.lafn.org 943601219 24034 192.168.11.10 (26 Nov 1999 07:26:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lafn.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 1999 07:26:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.lafn.org!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > Glass is not as heavy as whatever they make bowling balls out of. And, of > course, there is glass and there is glass. The crystalline substance of which > the palantiri were made is not described but presumably it could be either > heavier than or lighter than glass. Agreed. > > >Since it could be bigger than 12 inches I just gave a wide spread and said > >40-100 lbs, figuring it likely fell somewhere in between. But whatever, It sure > >is Bigger and heavier than my thoughts when I read LOTR. I was thinking glass > >paperweight that could fit in the palm of the hand...5 or 6 inches maybe. > > Well, I think a little perspective can be gained by considering the fact that > Pippin was able to lift and carry it without much effort. In fact, the text > says "it did not seem quite so heavy as he had expected". I would think > Pippin was stronger than a child about his size, having a more fully mature > musculature, but 100 pounds would probably still tax him considerably. 40 > might be an acceptable upper limit, I think. Therein lies the problem. The "UT" tells us the Palantirs were "very heavy" and a minimum of 12 inches in diameter. The LOTR tells us Pippin thought it lighter than he expected... in fact he was sitting down holding the ball between his knees for some time if I recall correctly (an amazing feet with a 12 inch 40 or 50lb circular globe). He also replaced it with a rock (presumably of similar size to fool Gandalf?) and that must have been heavier still!... and he didn't stoop with loaded arms, bent over, and place it before Gandalf... He was on his knees when he placed it near the wizard, who clasped it with one hand as opposed to cradling it with an arm. It really looks like the Orthanc Palantir in LOTR was written as about double the volume of a softball, and that the UT Palantiri chapter, as it pertains to size, is a falsehood. Or maybe JRRT decided later on a bigger size but would have had to change the chapter "The Palantir" in LOTR considerably to incorperate it. Something just doesn't jive between the two writings. Happy Thanksgiving all, Randy ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81kv5b$1p0_012@news.uswest.net> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 37 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 03:35:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.236 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943587124 207.224.148.236 (Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:32:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:32:04 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com>, Randy Simcox wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> >> Where did you come by the weight of 40-100 pounds? > >That was just an extrapolation. The smallest was 12 inches in diameter and >we have no idea if the Orthanc Stone was this size or bigger. They were >said to be "very heavy"... well most assume something 12 inches across >and glass-like would be heavy and this is said to be "very heavy." A >16 lb bowling ball is about 8 inches in diameter so a 12 inch diameter >object would have more than 3x the volume. It would work out to be a 54 >lb ball. Glass is heavy and I probably just assumed it wasn't a hollow >shell. Glass is not as heavy as whatever they make bowling balls out of. And, of course, there is glass and there is glass. The crystalline substance of which the palantiri were made is not described but presumably it could be either heavier than or lighter than glass. >Since it could be bigger than 12 inches I just gave a wide spread and said >40-100 lbs, figuring it likely fell somewhere in between. But whatever, It sure >is Bigger and heavier than my thoughts when I read LOTR. I was thinking glass >paperweight that could fit in the palm of the hand...5 or 6 inches maybe. Well, I think a little perspective can be gained by considering the fact that Pippin was able to lift and carry it without much effort. In fact, the text says "it did not seem quite so heavy as he had expected". I would think Pippin was stronger than a child about his size, having a more fully mature musculature, but 100 pounds would probably still tax him considerably. 40 might be an acceptable upper limit, I think. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 26 Nov 1999 08:00:26 GMT References: <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <19991126030026.19488.00000417@ng-cm1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.cs.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail >I want to be realistic about this and was hoping for some references in >regards >to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I will assume that all three were >the >same size and shape. Since a Silmaril was used in Morgoth's crown, a >necklace, >fit into Beren's hand, and was worn on Earendil's brow it can't be larger >than >100 carats (the Hope Diamond is 44.5 carats). At 100 carats a standard >brilliant cut a diamond is approx. 2" in diameter. Thoughts on larger or >smaller sizes are appreciated. Also..the shape: spherical, triangular, or >standard cut? Since one of the Silmarils became the Planet Venus, it is reasonable to assume they are perfectly round when seen from the front. -- John Whelan ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:12:02 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com> <81kv5b$1p0_012@news.uswest.net> <383E363D.277ED4CC@Snakebite.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.62 X-Server-Date: 26 Nov 1999 15:07:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.dpn.de!news-out1.f.gtn.com!news-in3.f.gtn.com!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Randy@Snakebite.com (Randy Simcox) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >in fact he was sitting down holding the ball between his >knees for some time if I recall correctly (an amazing feet with a 12 inch 40 or >50lb circular globe). I don't think Pippin could have carried that big a Palantir. A 12-inch-diameter globe has volume 905 in^3, about half a cubic foot. The density of water is about 62.5 pounds/cubic foot (US measure about 8 pounds per gallon), so if the Palantir were made of water it would weigh just over 30 pounds. The typical density of rock, including crystal, is several times that of water. (If my arithmetic is correct, the density of the Moon, which is mostly rock, is 3.4 times that of water.) A 12-inch-diameter sphere of crystal would mass a hundred pounds or so, possibly 120-150 pounds. (I've been unable to find figures for the density of crystal, but a Swarovsky crystal piece I own is considerably heavier than a rock of the same size.) Remember also that Pippin was able to carry it. 12 inches is around a quarter of his height, even after drinking Treebeard's special water. Between that and the weight, I don't see how the Palantir could possibly be that large. If it were two thirds the linear dimension (8" in diameter), it would be about 30% the volume and mass, or about 30-40 pounds. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81mekg$1hc_024@news.uswest.net> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com> <81kv5b$1p0_012@news.uswest.net> <383E363D.277ED4CC@Snakebite.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 46 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:05:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.112 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943635739 209.181.119.112 (Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:02:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:02:19 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <383E363D.277ED4CC@Snakebite.com>, Randy Simcox wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> Well, I think a little perspective can be gained by considering the fact that >> Pippin was able to lift and carry it without much effort. In fact, the text >> says "it did not seem quite so heavy as he had expected". I would think >> Pippin was stronger than a child about his size, having a more fully mature >> musculature, but 100 pounds would probably still tax him considerably. 40 >> might be an acceptable upper limit, I think. > >Therein lies the problem. The "UT" tells us the Palantirs were "very heavy" and >a minimum of 12 inches in diameter. The LOTR tells us Pippin thought it lighter >than he expected... in fact he was sitting down holding the ball between his >knees for some time if I recall correctly (an amazing feet with a 12 inch 40 or >50lb circular globe). He also replaced it with a rock (presumably of similar >size to fool Gandalf?) and that must have been heavier still!... and he didn't >stoop with loaded arms, bent over, and place it before Gandalf... He was on his >knees when he placed it near the wizard, who clasped it with one hand as >opposed to cradling it with an arm. Well, he knelt down to place the rock beside the wizard. I'm not sure of how strong Pippin should have been, but a 30-40 lb weight should not have been beyond his ability to carry. He'd been lugging a backpack for months, climbing mountains and trees, getting a lot of exercise, etc. >It really looks like the Orthanc Palantir in LOTR was written as about double >the volume of a softball, and that the UT Palantiri chapter, as it pertains to >size, is a falsehood. Or maybe JRRT decided later on a bigger size but would >have had to change the chapter "The Palantir" in LOTR considerably to >incorperate it. Something just doesn't jive between the two writings. The palantir DID snap the iron railing on the stairs at Isengard. The text says specifically that it was a heavy object in that passage. And Pippin was apparently bent over when he brought the palantir back from the pool toward which it rolled. I would say there must have been some other power at work. Maybe Pippin was lifting the palantir and rock with "other strength", and his mass increased proportionately, and he actually was only dreaming through the power of Sauron's left toe. Surely that's a valid interpretation? :) -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: Randy Simcox Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:07:39 -0800 Organization: Boardgames University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <383F914B.3132518A@Snakebite.com> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <383CEE08.DACC158@Snakebite.com> <81jp7i$1d8_002@news.uswest.net> <383DEC83.14216685@Snakebite.com> <81kv5b$1p0_012@news.uswest.net> <383E363D.277ED4CC@Snakebite.com> <_nF%3.888$Bw.1082@news.get2net.dk> <81na6c$1hk_006@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.16.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zook.lafn.org 943690063 28440 192.168.16.1 (27 Nov 1999 08:07:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lafn.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Nov 1999 08:07:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.lafn.org!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <_nF%3.888$Bw.1082@news.get2net.dk>, "Raven" wrote: > > If the Palantír was less heavy than it seemed, then twice the density of > >water seems an appropriate guess: 28 kg, or 62 pounds. Not impossible for a > >Hobbit stronger for his size than a typical Man-child. But as another > >poster noted, Pippin also replaced the Palantír with a round stone of about > >the same size. That's 81 pounds (assuming 2.6 g/ccm), or 36 kg. Back when > >*I* was Pippin's size, I would have found that difficult to *ease* carefully > >into the nook of Gandalf's arm... > > Slow down here, folks. Let's not have another "Ring or Frodo on Mount Doom" > controversy if we can avoid it. All the text says is that Pippin got a large > rock. It doesn't say that it was round, or that the rock was approximately > the same size as the palantir. > > Too many assumptions are going into this soup. I did say in my post that it was an assumption on near equal size. But Gandalf did seem contented as his hand clasped the rock so there is no way it was too far from the same size; He could have replaced it with a 9 inch rock. And we don't know whether this was a 12 inch or maybe a 16 inch Palantir... we only know that, according to UT, the smallest was 12 inches. But also most of us wouldn't "clasp" a 12 inch diameter object.... we'd clasp or grip something much smaller. And also it seems the Palantir was able to be transported by Gandalf while resting in the folds of his cloak..... One tough cloak if you ask me. Randy ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: debi@_No_Spamming_blazenet.net (Tatonga) Subject: Re: the Silmarils References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> <383c05de.8145550@enews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.104.44.19 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 943691833 24.104.44.19 (Sat, 27 Nov 1999 03:37:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 03:37:13 EST Organization: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http://bCandid.com Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:36:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!hub12.nn.bcandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!tatonga In article <383c05de.8145550@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: >On 24 Nov 1999 12:14:14 GMT, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) posted the >following: > >>I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I've >>read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find anything. I may have missed >>something...... > >There's nothing concrete, IIRC. But you can infer size and shape from >other statements in the Silm. They were small enough for someone to >hold clasped in their hand (Beren). They could be fit into a crown or >a necklace. I've always visioned them as small, smooth, and round, >and an amber color with a white light streaming out from them. > >-Chris I have imagined them to be one of silver, one of gold and one the color and hue of the mixing of the two trees. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:39:54 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <81pfiq$i5q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <81hmh6$3to_008@news.uswest.net> <28992-383CB3D6-10@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Nov 27 20:39:54 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.0; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x37.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Dave's thought: "Yes, it seemed a bit large for me as well. I suppose he may have mixed up inches and centimeters. Myself, I picture the Silmarils being about half that in size, although that does seem a little large as well." Dear Dave, No, I was thinking inches, but I guess that's a little too big. My theory is that they are larger than any 'natural' jewel. But, how large? Using my own hand as a measuring stick (and I'm 5'7" tall), I would have said that my 'mental silmaril' was 4" diameter. I felt Feanor would have had a much larger hand and tried to expand the size and I think I got carried away. Cheers, Paul > > --Dave > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Message-ID: References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> <383c05de.8145550@enews.newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 16 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:51:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 943825891 208.170.95.214 (Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:51:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:51:31 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , debi@_No_Spamming_blazenet.net (Tatonga) wrote: > In article <383c05de.8145550@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: > >On 24 Nov 1999 12:14:14 GMT, josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) posted the > >following: > > > >>I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the Silmarils. I've > >>read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find anything. I may have missed > >>something...... My idea is that they looked like the Arkenstone of Thrain. DS ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 43 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 06:32:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 943857166 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:32:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:32:46 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat): > I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the > Silmarils. I've read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find > anything. I may have missed something...... One possible source to look at is the original description of the making of the Silmarils in the Lost Tales. I won't quote it here, but that passage goes into great detail about the materials Feanor used when making them... as I recall, the foundation of each Silmaril in this version was a pearl. Now, of course, this whole scene was massively modified in the intervening years, and we can't take it as canonical at all. However, it would not be unreasonable (given the lack of specific descriptions later on) to guess that Tolkien's mental image of the Silmarils didn't change _that_ much over time. (It is, of course, equally possible that it _did_ change in some more or less important way... we don't know.) At any rate, my current mental picture of the Silmarils is spherical unfaceted. I've got a ridiculously huge (in file size, that is--400K) animated GIF image that I made that is supposed to look like a Silmaril, on the web at http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/SilmarilAni.gif I've no idea how well or poorly I've done, but I _do_ know that if I render this again, I'll reduce the golden hue relative to the silver (there are comments indicating that silver/white was the dominate hue of the Silmarils, and Venus doesn't look anywhere _near_ this golden). Incidentally, there was a thread on "Silmaril appearance" or something like that within the past year that I started to get the group's thoughts before making this image; I don't know that I ever posted the fruit of my labors. :) (It _has_ been available via an easter egg from my main web page for months, but it's a rather tricky thing to find... and as yet inaccessible to those without a recent Windows or Mac version of Netscape or MSIE, due to features not implemented in the UNIX versions. On a related note, the centers of the rotating stars on my main web page are based on code very similar to that used in the animated Silmaril referenced above.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Nov 1999 12:25:58 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991129072558.13821.00001509@ng-cf1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Thanks Steuard....I'll look that reference up. Hopefully, its just what I need :) Josie Quoth josiecaat@aol.com (Josie Caat): >> I'm trying to find references to the size and shape of the >> Silmarils. I've read the Silmarillion and HoME but couldn't find >> anything. I may have missed something...... Steuard Jensen wrote: >One possible source to look at is the original description of the >making of the Silmarils in the Lost Tales. I won't quote it here, but >that passage goes into great detail about the materials Feanor used >when making them... as I recall, the foundation of each Silmaril in >this version was a pearl. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81uekp$23k_022@news.uswest.net> References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:54:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.163 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943897882 207.224.147.163 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:51:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:51:22 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >One possible source to look at is the original description of the >making of the Silmarils in the Lost Tales. I won't quote it here, but >that passage goes into great detail about the materials Feanor used >when making them... as I recall, the foundation of each Silmaril in >this version was a pearl. The shapes of the gems are not given. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Shimpei Yamashita Subject: Re: the Silmarils References: <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> <19991126030026.19488.00000417@ng-cm1.news.cs.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: shimpei@gol.com () Message-ID: Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:08:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.43.218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 943913285 203.216.43.218 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:08:05 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:08:05 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!nnrp.gol.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Nystulc writes: >Since one of the Silmarils became the Planet Venus, it is reasonable to assume >they are perfectly round when seen from the front. In that case, it would be even more reasonable to assume that the Silmarils waxed and waned and looked like shiny croissants from time to time. :-) At the kind of distance we're talking about, the shape of the light source hardly matters, especially since the Elves and Men in the First Age probably didn't have telescopes. Personally, I've always imagined the Silmarils to be smooth, oblate spheroids. There is nothing in the text that would imply such a thing; it's just my imagination. I've never really imagined it being faceted like diamond--I don't know why, except that it can hurt to hold onto a stone of that size with sharp edges, as Beren does. -- Shimpei Yamashita ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils References: <19991124071414.12672.00001519@ng-fw1.aol.com> <81uekp$23k_022@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6GF04.448$iT1.9087@uchinews> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:23:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 943924994 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:23:14 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:23:14 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >One possible source to look at is the original description of the > >making of the Silmarils in the Lost Tales. ... > >...as I recall, the foundation of each Silmaril in > >this version was a pearl. > The shapes of the gems are not given. True... but the shape of a pearl is spherical, and without facets. On reading the passage in the Lost Tales again, I'll agree that it's not even clear that the "great pearl" mentioned _was_ the defining shape of the Silmarils (after all, it only mentions Feanor obtaining a single great pearl, but he makes three Silmarils). As you point out, even if we assume that there was a great pearl at the heart of each Silmaril, there is no direct reason to think that Feanor did not build upon them and then cut facets, or that he didn't cut facets into the pearl itself (although I've never seen this done in the real world). On the other hand, it's tempting to think that if Feanor created his great gems from a base that was perfectly round and smooth, he might retain that roundness and smoothness in the final product. But the short answer is that you're right, the Lost Tales passage doesn't say anything about the shape of the Silmarils. It simply gives us more information to ponder when making our own guesses. Steuard Jensen ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:13:59 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 12 Message-ID: <13869-38438747-161@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <81uekp$23k_022@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQzQlfCb3NjQPOfz3vwyAs3rbznUQIUf+wGBL+kcmrFI7jebmrr7GGp8eI= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >>as I recall, the foundation of each >>Silmaril in this version was a pearl. >The shapes of the gems are not given. Well, pearls are round, though I assume you're referring to the Silmarils here. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: the Silmarils Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8211vr$1ac_034@news.uswest.net> References: <81uekp$23k_022@news.uswest.net> <13869-38438747-161@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:36:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.95 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943983225 209.181.118.95 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:33:45 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:33:45 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <13869-38438747-161@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>as I recall, the foundation of each >>>Silmaril in this version was a pearl. > >>The shapes of the gems are not given. > >Well, pearls are round, though I assume you're referring to the >Silmarils here. Yes, but the gems were not made around pearls. Feanor took all sorts of substances and blended them together with the light of the Two Trees. Then he encased them in a special crystal of his own devising (which even Aule couldn't make) and he came up with gems which shone of their own light. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: the Silmarils Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 00:25:01 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8272kp$4se$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <19991124184733.27764.00000109@ng-fb1.aol.com> <19991126030026.19488.00000417@ng-cm1.news.cs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.161.32 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Dec 03 00:25:01 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x21.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.161.32 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , Shimpei Yamashita wrote: > Nystulc writes: > >Since one of the Silmarils became the Planet Venus, it is reasonable to assume > >they are perfectly round when seen from the front. > > In that case, it would be even more reasonable to assume that the > Silmarils waxed and waned and looked like shiny croissants from time > to time. :-) Well, that's why I added the qualification "when seen from the front." I assumed it was circular, not necessarily spherical. Depending on the angle, it might appear as an oval, or as a sickle if partially obscured by Earendil's brow. > At the kind of distance we're talking about, the shape of the light > source hardly matters, especially since the Elves and Men in the First > Age probably didn't have telescopes. The planet Venus is visible as a (tiny) circle when seen with the human eye. With 20/20 vision or better, Venus is easily distinguishable from a star, which would appear simply as a point of light. When it is full, and unusually close to the earth, it has sometimes been mistaken for a flying saucer. Certainly Elves should have no problem distinguishing its roundness. -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.