From: "maurice finn" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 18:04:40 -0000 Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.131.244.185 Message-ID: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> X-Trace: 20 Nov 1999 18:42:54 GMT, 194.131.244.185 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!news.jakinternet.co.uk!194.131.244.185 Was Lorien not physically part of Middle Earth but a completely different dimension . We know that it was 'made' by Galadriel in the second age and that time inside Lorien ran at a different speed to the rest of Middle Earth . Also Faramir called it the hidden land and stated that it was perilous for mortal men to walk out of the world of this sun perhaps meaning that any who entered in fact left Middle Earth. Cheers Maurice -- A man who is self reliant optimistic and undertakes his work with the assurance of success magnetises his condition and draws to himself the creative power of the universe. ###### Message-ID: <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 46 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:44:29 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 943890539 24.128.99.214 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:48:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:48:59 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws03.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail maurice finn wrote: > Also Faramir called it the hidden land and stated that it was perilous for > mortal men to walk out of the world of this sun perhaps meaning that any who > entered in fact left Middle Earth. (so ok, I forgot to send this earlier) my take on this-- In Lothlorien Frodo sees: 'Out of it, [a hill of mighty trees] it seemed to him that the power and light came that held the land in sway.' And earlier 'A light was upon it for which his language had no name.' The Faramir statement you refer to also reveals Tolkien's unique distinction of light and it's relationship (imo) to the 'power' in Lorien. The distinction between that of the softer, gentler light of a Two Trees type, and the light of Anar, the sun of Middle-earth -- though itself life giving, under which things change more swiftly, eventually fade, wither and die. Men will indeed walk 'out of the world of this sun' in that sense by entering under the 'magic sun', if you will, of Lothlorien. The world of Anar brings change and loss all to swiftly for the Quendi, the inevitable decay and death of things beloved to them. Galadriel's light is intrinsically related to the _effects_ of time of course, but time itself didn't actually slow in Lorien, or even run at any different rate, though it seemed to move swifter, as Aragorn noted when Sam lost count of days. Legolas observed: 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike.' Frodo notes that the 'wearing is slow in Lorien', though the hours seem short. Basically, some of the Hobbits were confused that so much time had elapsed outside Lorien, because inside the (same amount of) time 'felt' shorter, or went by unnoticed. (As when one reads a good book for instance!) Tolkien indeed played with the concept of Lothlorien as being 'outside actual time' as can be seen in the LOTR drafts, but rejected the idea eventually. Heck, an actual different rate of time would only have confused the Tale of Years! And age was age, even in unchanging Lothlorien, only adding to the wonder. An oak for instance, under sway of Galadriel's Nenya, would seem as fresh and alive as if it had been but newly conceived, and also as ancient as if it had 'endured forever'. -- Cian ' ... and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; was set as a sign for the awakening of men and the waning of the Elves, but the moon cherishes their memory.' Silmarillion ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:52:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.163 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943897747 207.224.147.163 (Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:49:07 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:49:07 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Tolkien indeed played with the concept of Lothlorien as being 'outside actual >time' as can be seen in the LOTR drafts, but rejected the idea eventually. Nope. Time runs differently in Lorien than elsewhere in Middle-earth. You even started to quote from the very passage where Frodo confirms this. The Rings of Power were created to hold back Time. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:48:20 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 943973571 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:52:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:52:51 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!windy.ip.versatel.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: > >Tolkien indeed played with the concept of Lothlorien as being 'outside actual > >time' as can be seen in the LOTR drafts, but rejected the idea eventually. > > Nope. Time runs differently in Lorien than elsewhere in Middle-earth. You > even started to quote from the very passage where Frodo confirms this. The > Rings of Power were created to hold back Time. Of the passage I quoted from Frodo, the rest goes ['... rich are the hours though short they seem,] in Caras Galadon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.' (I paraphrased the bracketed section earlier) An earlier passage has Frodo theorizing about time in Lorien, then Legolas corrects him, then Frodo rejoins 'But the -wearing- is slow in Lorien ... the power of the Lady is on it.' (plus the above) then Aragorn rebukes Frodo, though not for content in this respect, and confirms that Sam has only lost count of days. I take Legolas' correction that 'time does not tarry ever' to be Tolkien's correction to the reader, because most of the company had indeed lost count, due to the altered perceptions under the preservation power of Nenya. The company spent the 'real time' between the dates given in the Tale of Years, and the moon followed to generally agree with the dates given. Originally Tolkien had the company spend a lot less time in Lorien (that is 'Lorien time') while the outside world passed by, even adding a phrase 'time ceases' between dates in a draft for the Tale of Years. Then Tolkien extended the company's time in Lorien, albeit ambiguously, to agree with the moon that Sam would ultimately notice on the Great River. Although no one could accurately count the days in Lorien, before the morning of the company's departure, Sam says to Frodo : 'I wonder we don't see nothing of the Lord and Lady in all these days.' 'all these days' implying more than a few to my mind -- to tenuously at least, agree with the Tale of Years once again. In the drafts, I also note the changes in wording from the surer implications of time actually flowing differently, to more ambiguous descriptions that deal with perceptions and the ageless qualities of Lorien. IIrc,Tolkien also amended Gandalf's words to fit this revised ambiguity, concerning the time he spent healing in Lorien. Effectually Nenya did hold back time, but so that actual 'incremental time' passed without result (though the power went deeper than that) The ring held back those various effects that were negatively important to Elves, loss of things beloved (works of mind and hand), decay and death of the land, even perhaps the general changeful nature of custom and language, but as I say, Tolkien eventually rejected the idea of actual 'incremental' time' in Lorien being different from the world outside. I don't think therefore that Lorien is a different dimension, though it acts like one in result, up to a point; and anyway, who of the company could explain the situation better than Legolas to bewildered Hobbits :) -- Cian ###### Message-ID: <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:23:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 943990100 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:28:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:28:20 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > >An earlier passage has Frodo theorizing about time in Lorien, then Legolas > >corrects him, > [snip] > > Legolas could not really correct Frodo because he didn't know (until Frodo > revealed it) that Galadriel had a Ring of Power. The purpose of the Rings was > to hold back Time. This is the way Tolkien put it, more than once. Elrond > had presumably revealed all he knew about the Rings at the Council -- at > least, Tolkien says he "spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power". > > The purpose of the passage is to establish that something funky is going on in > Lorien. Sam has deduced that more time flowed by than he could recall, Frodo > and Aragorn confirm it for him. Legolas tries to explain it away. Maybe he's > trying to protect the secret of the Ring (supposedly the Elves had deduced > where two of the Three were by this time) or maybe he's just a bit clueless in > the matter. > > Time didn't flow in Lorien as it did outside. Here's another reason that I think it did, though I'm talking a specific distinction here concerning 'time flow' of course -- Tolkien wrote across a rejected time scheme (where 20 days = 1): 'Why have any difference of time? Shift the dates a month forward. If Lorien time is not different, then no need for Sam to see the moon. *Better to have no time difference*.' Tolkien kept the moon sighting and used understandably confused perceptions with the Hobbits. The above ratio of 20 to 1 for instance, doesn't work with what Tolkien eventually decided on for the company's lengthier stay in Lorien -- if we use the dates from the Tale of Years that's way too much exterior time passing, and the company would have been allowed only about a day and a half of Lorien time (which was closer to the original rejected scheme iirc). And Legolas knew the way of it > Cian semi-bellows redundantly, scaring a nearby cat< not clueless he! Now Tolkien did indeed use the wording 'hold back time' more than once, and the rings did accomplish this in a very real sense as I have not argued against, but the Tale of Years has no asterisk to explain any variant time ratios, and all one needs to do is slow the myriad effects of time and one is effectively 'holding back time'. Mostly, the language Tolkien decided upon gives me this opinion. I also think that Tolkien prefered a less 'scientific' approach, if you will, than working out ratios. The trees in Lorien don't look simply 'X- times younger' than they might, but seemingly ancient and newly conceived all at once -- more ambiguous, and more 'magical', more Tolkienesque Imo. And yikes, this is the most I've written in a month! -- -- Cian ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Nov 1999 16:13:33 GMT References: <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991130111333.14288.00000051@ngol04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >In article <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net>, Cian >wrote: >>Tolkien indeed played with the concept of Lothlorien as being 'outside >actual >>time' as can be seen in the LOTR drafts, but rejected the idea eventually. > >Nope. Time runs differently in Lorien than elsewhere in Middle-earth. You >even started to quote from the very passage where Frodo confirms this. The >Rings of Power were created to hold back Time. > > Waldhari wrote: >'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all >things and places alike.' Frodo notes that the 'wearing is slow in Lorien', >though the hours seem short. Basically, some of the Hobbits were confused that >so much time had elapsed outside Lorien, because inside the (same amount of) >time 'felt' shorter, or went by unnoticed. (As when one reads a good book for >instance!) I'd have to go with the last view here. It is not time itself that slows, but the perception, along with the possible lessing of stress in a place like Lorien, that makes time seem to go slower. The book analogy is good. Or, have you ever wondered where all the time went when you get to the end of a particularly good vacation that was spent doing nothing in particular? PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: "Conrad B. Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <19991130111333.14288.00000051@ngol04.aol.com> <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <52Y04.644$Y8.13364@reader1.interactive.net> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:43:47 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.107.141.148 X-Trace: reader1.interactive.net 944000257 216.107.141.148 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:17:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:17:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!uunet!ams.uu.net!uunet!zur.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!cyclone.interactive.net!reader1.interactive.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message news:8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net... > Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran > differently in Lorien. Q.E.D. Quotations? My recollection is that he generally said the Rings were made to hold back the EFFECTS of time... which is quite a different thing. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 43 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:34:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.95 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943983090 209.181.118.95 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:31:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:31:30 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> In article <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net>, Cian > wrote: >> >Tolkien indeed played with the concept of Lothlorien as being 'outside >> >actual time' as can be seen in the LOTR drafts, but rejected the idea >> >eventually. >> >> Nope. Time runs differently in Lorien than elsewhere in Middle-earth. You >> even started to quote from the very passage where Frodo confirms this. The >> Rings of Power were created to hold back Time. > >Of the passage I quoted from Frodo, the rest goes ['... rich are the hours >though short they seem,] in Caras Galadon, where Galadriel wields the >Elven-ring.' (I paraphrased the bracketed section earlier) > >An earlier passage has Frodo theorizing about time in Lorien, then Legolas >corrects him, [snip] Legolas could not really correct Frodo because he didn't know (until Frodo revealed it) that Galadriel had a Ring of Power. The purpose of the Rings was to hold back Time. This is the way Tolkien put it, more than once. Elrond had presumably revealed all he knew about the Rings at the Council -- at least, Tolkien says he "spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power". The purpose of the passage is to establish that something funky is going on in Lorien. Sam has deduced that more time flowed by than he could recall, Frodo and Aragorn confirm it for him. Legolas tries to explain it away. Maybe he's trying to protect the secret of the Ring (supposedly the Elves had deduced where two of the Three were by this time) or maybe he's just a bit clueless in the matter. Time didn't flow in Lorien as it did outside. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> References: <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <19991130111333.14288.00000051@ngol04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.95 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943983149 209.181.118.95 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:32:29 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:32:29 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991130111333.14288.00000051@ngol04.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) wrote: >I'd have to go with the last view here. It is not time itself that slows, but >the perception Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran differently in Lorien. Q.E.D. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Nov 1999 18:50:34 GMT References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran differently in > >Lorien. Q.E.D. > > Holds back time in what way. All watches stop? or in a way such as aging slower and showing signs of being "well preserved" like Bilbo & Frodo? I don't think the first is right and there are at least obvious examples of the latter. The clock didn't slow for our fearless hobbits, but they did weather it a little better in some ways. Breathe Peace PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Message-ID: <3844986B.B427E9CF@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net> <821o5j$17o_022@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:39:23 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944019836 24.128.99.214 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:43:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:43:56 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > >Tolkien kept the moon sighting and used understandably confused perceptions > >with the Hobbits. The above ratio of 20 to 1 for instance [snip] > > Don't infer that I was arguing for a rejected time scheme. Tolkien was trying > to have MORE TIME pass in Lorien, not less, when he was wrangling with these > issues. What he decided ultimately was that the time passed more slowly in > Lorien, not faster as originally proposed. I didn't mean to infer that you were arguing for that specific example Michael -- But what Tolkien wrote upon that example is more to my point in any case, esp. the last remark: 'Better to have no time difference' Imo Tolkien ultimately chose this route, with the effects of time 'held back' under Elven ring power. -- Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 53 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:44:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.77 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944005331 207.224.147.77 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:42:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:42:11 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: >In article <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >>Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran differently in >>Lorien. Q.E.D. >> >> > >Holds back time in what way. All watches stop? or in a way such as aging >slower and showing signs of being "well preserved" like Bilbo & Frodo? I don't >think the first is right and there are at least obvious examples of the latter. > The clock didn't slow for our fearless hobbits, but they did weather it a >little better in some ways. Here is what Tolkien says: The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of DECAY (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- this is more or less an Elvish motive.... (From Letter 131) ...The Ring is losted, for ever it is hoped; and the Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West. (Ibid.) ...Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart. (Letter 144) ...But the Elves are NOT wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' -- and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret.... (Letter 154) -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <821o5j$17o_022@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 38 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:55:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.77 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944005937 207.224.147.77 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:52:17 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:52:17 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> Time didn't flow in Lorien as it did outside. > >Here's another reason that I think it did, though I'm talking a specific >distinction here concerning 'time flow' of course -- > >Tolkien wrote across a rejected time scheme (where 20 days = 1): >'Why have any difference of time? Shift the dates a month forward. >If Lorien time is not different, then no need for Sam to see the moon. >*Better to have no time difference*.' > >Tolkien kept the moon sighting and used understandably confused perceptions >with the Hobbits. The above ratio of 20 to 1 for instance, doesn't work >with what Tolkien eventually decided on for the company's lengthier stay >in Lorien -- if we use the dates from the Tale of Years that's way too >much exterior time passing, and the company would have been allowed only >about a day and a half of Lorien time (which was closer to the original >rejected scheme iirc)... Don't infer that I was arguing for a rejected time scheme. Tolkien was trying to have MORE TIME pass in Lorien, not less, when he was wrangling with these issues. What he decided ultimately was that the time passed more slowly in Lorien, not faster as originally proposed. >...And Legolas knew the way of it His words indicate otherwise. Either he was dissembling to protect an Elvish secret, or else he just didn't realize that Lorien was where one of the Three Rings abode. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com> <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 82 Message-ID: <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 05:12:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944025147 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:12:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:12:27 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail It looks to me as if all but one of your cited quotes work at _least_ as well as support for the view that not time itself but the wearing and decay due to time were slowed by the Rings: Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > Here is what Tolkien says: > The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or > slowing of DECAY (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), > the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- > this is more or less an Elvish motive.... > (From Letter 131) Note here that Tolkien says "the prevention or slowing of DECAY", not of time itself. (We could get into the physics or philosophy of how to separate time from the changes it causes, but I won't.) Equally significant, he says "or its semblance", suggesting that what is desired is not _truly_ being held without change. I would claim that true slowing of time itself would truly preserve things, not just in seeming. > ...The Ring is losted, for ever it is hoped; and the Three Rings > of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in > preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted > enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is > restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West. > (Ibid.) Again, note that "Time SEEMS to stand still", and that "DECAY is restrained" here. Tolkien carefully does _not_ say that time _does_ stand still. Along the same lines, the Rings are preserving the memory and beauty of old, not flat out preserving the old world. Also, in the True West, time was certainly not stopped or slowed: once again, it was simply decay and change that were retarded there. As we know from the Silmarillion, events outside Valinor continued whether the Valar concerned themselves with them or not. A semblance of the true west, therefore, certainly does not imply that time itself would progress at a different rate. > ...Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders > of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back > time, and depart. > (Letter 144) This one, I'll grant you, does indicate that the Rings were able to literally hold back time. On the other hand, if there _were_ unambiguous evidence that the Rings did _not_ literally hold back time, it would be very easy to read this as simply a shorthand for "hold back the wearing and decay of time". In other words, by itself I don't see this quote as conclusive evidence, and I personally am leaning toward the other position. > ...But the Elves are NOT wholly good or in the right. Not so > much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or > without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted > to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal > historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it > (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a > superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, > stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a > desert, where they could be 'artists' -- and they were > overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret.... > (Letter 154) If the Elves were "embalmers", then they weren't stopping time any more than the Egyptian embalmers did when they made mummies. The mummies still passed through time, but simply did so in a state of greater preservation and less change than the same bodies would have without mummification. This is precisely what I see the Elves as having done in Middle-earth with the Rings: slowed change without slowing time. As for the latter part of this quote, once again, it says that the Elves tried to stop change and growth. Yes, it does say that they trid to stop history, but I take that to mean that they wanted the _progress_ of history to stop, not that they didn't want to have to write as many dates in their journals. Thanks for providing all these quotes! I think they've given me all the evidence I need to make a fairly confident decision on this issue. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 36 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:35:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944033535 198.172.26.10 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:32:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:32:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!203-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:34:44 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >Legolas could not really correct Frodo because he didn't know (until Frodo >revealed it) that Galadriel had a Ring of Power. The purpose of the Rings was >to hold back Time. This is the way Tolkien put it, more than once. Elrond >had presumably revealed all he knew about the Rings at the Council -- at >least, Tolkien says he "spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power". Huh? Elrond certainly didn't reveal all he knew about the Rings at the Council. He said that he's not allowed to talk about them. In particular, he didn't reveal that he had one of them. >The purpose of the passage is to establish that something funky is going on in >Lorien. Sam has deduced that more time flowed by than he could recall, Frodo >and Aragorn confirm it for him. Legolas tries to explain it away. Maybe he's >trying to protect the secret of the Ring (supposedly the Elves had deduced >where two of the Three were by this time) or maybe he's just a bit clueless in >the matter. I'd guess that he's clueless, if that really is what he meant. (It seems plausible that his statement that "time does not tarry ever" could be interpreted in at least two radically different ways, especially in light of Tolkien's writing style.) But *why* is Galadriel slowing down time? Because the Elves like it that way. (Sort of.) So if an Elf can come into Lorien and not notice that she's slowing down time, is it really doing anyone any good? Isn't there supposed to be a tingling feeling that lets you know it's working or something? Based on this, I'd guess that Legolas didn't actually mean that time couldn't be altered. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <822k85$2i0_014@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net> <821o5j$17o_022@news.uswest.net> <3844986B.B427E9CF@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:54:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944034688 207.224.149.166 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 01:51:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 01:51:28 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3844986B.B427E9CF@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> Don't infer that I was arguing for a rejected time scheme. Tolkien was >> trying to have MORE TIME pass in Lorien, not less, when he was wrangling >> with these issues. What he decided ultimately was that the time passed >> more slowly in Lorien, not faster as originally proposed. > >I didn't mean to infer that you were arguing for that specific example Michael > -- >But what Tolkien wrote upon that example is more to my point in any case, esp. >the last remark: >'Better to have no time difference' You keep missing the point. That remark had nothing to do with his final decision on the matter. At the time he was wrangling with the idea that MORE time occurred inside Lorien than outside. That's not the way it happens in the published book. More time occurs OUTSIDE Lorien. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com> <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 07:55:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944034754 207.224.149.166 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 01:52:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 01:52:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >It looks to me as if all but one of your cited quotes work at _least_ >as well as support for the view that not time itself but the wearing >and decay due to time were slowed by the Rings: Tolkien summarized the effect as "hold back Time". Apparently he felt that was sufficient. Clearly stopping or preventing change in Middle-earth is not simply "holding back wearing and decay". -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <38452046.239C04FB@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net> <821o5j$17o_022@news.uswest.net> <3844986B.B427E9CF@mediaone.net> <822k85$2i0_014@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:19:02 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944054616 24.128.99.214 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:23:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:23:36 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!news.idt.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > Snip>>'Better to have no time difference' > > You keep missing the point. That remark had nothing to do with his final > decision on the matter. At the time he was wrangling with the idea that MORE > time occurred inside Lorien than outside. That's not the way it happens in > the published book. More time occurs OUTSIDE Lorien. My example was indeed the opposite of Tolkiens, got it :) -- it still presents the problem as a 'for instance' in a discussion about time moving slower in Lorien, which you say it does. Too much time occurring >outside< Lorien is exactly the problematic issue with the 'slower in Lorien' theory, unless one uses a 'close' ratio, or a curtailed stay in Lorien -- disregard any example if you like, I do, because I don't think Tolkien used _any_ ratios in the published text. Faster or slower is what was rejected imo -- 'Better to have no time difference' means to me _'not faster or slower'_ and this is reflected in the language of the changes made (from the drafts) to the published texts and the Tale of Years -- not to mention the language of the quotes you offered that Steuard already commented on (as I would have commented similarly) -- Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 111 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:50:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944038071 207.224.149.166 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 02:47:51 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 02:47:51 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:34:44 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>Legolas could not really correct Frodo because he didn't know (until Frodo >>revealed it) that Galadriel had a Ring of Power. The purpose of the Rings was > >>to hold back Time. This is the way Tolkien put it, more than once. Elrond >>had presumably revealed all he knew about the Rings at the Council -- at >>least, Tolkien says he "spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power". > >Huh? > >Elrond certainly didn't reveal all he knew about the Rings at the >Council. He said that he's not allowed to talk about them. In >particular, he didn't reveal that he had one of them. No, he said he wasn't permitted to speak of the Three -- to give their whereabouts or to explain how they were being used. But he did say they were not made for war and that they were not idle. Then all listened while Elrond in his clear voice spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power, and their forging in the Second Age of the world long ago. A part of his tale was known to some there, but the full tale to none, and many eyes were turned to to Elrond in fear and wonder as he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and their eagerness for knowledge, by which Sauron ensnared them. For in that time he was not yet evil to behold, and they received his aid and grew mighty in craft, wheeras he learned all their secrets, and betrayed them, and forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master. But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and his the Three which he had made; and there was war, and the land was laid waste, and the gate of Moria was shut. Then through all the years that followed he traced the Ring; but since that history is elsewhere recounted, even as Elrond himself set it down in his books of lore, it is not here recalled. For it is a long tale, full of deeds great and terrible, and briefly though Elrond spoke, the sun rode up in the sky, and the morning was passing ere he ceased. (From "The Council of Elrond" in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING) 'Ah, alas!' cried Gloin. 'When will the day cmoe of our revenge? But still there are the Three. What of the Three Rings of the Elves? Very mighty Rings, it is said. do not the Elf-lords keep them? Yet they too were made by the Dark Lord long ago. Are they idle? I see Elf-lords here. Will they not say?' The Elves returned no answer. 'Did you not hear me, Gloin?' said Elrond. 'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.' (Ibid.) Note that Elrond talks the morning away, and he here for the first time tells the full tale. But he does not disclose what happened to the Three after they were hidden. >>The purpose of the passage is to establish that something funky is going on in >>Lorien. Sam has deduced that more time flowed by than he could recall, Frodo >>and Aragorn confirm it for him. Legolas tries to explain it away. Maybe he's >>trying to protect the secret of the Ring (supposedly the Elves had deduced >>where two of the Three were by this time) or maybe he's just a bit clueless in >>the matter. > >I'd guess that he's clueless, if that really is what he meant. (It >seems plausible that his statement that "time does not tarry ever" >could be interpreted in at least two radically different ways, >especially in light of Tolkien's writing style.) Legolas was not a Noldo, nor part of the great nation of Eregion. His understanding of the Rings of Power would be limited to whatever knowledge the Noldor let out to other Elves, and they don't seem to have gone blabbing about what they did. >But *why* is Galadriel slowing down time? Because the Elves like it >that way. (Sort of.) So if an Elf can come into Lorien and not >notice that she's slowing down time, is it really doing anyone any >good? Isn't there supposed to be a tingling feeling that lets you >know it's working or something? > >Based on this, I'd guess that Legolas didn't actually mean that time >couldn't be altered. I would guess that Legolas was so used to perceiving the world in the Elvish way that he didn't appreciate the significance of the difference. Galadriel didn't have to willingly hold back Time. Her Ring would do that whether she wore it or not. Legolas was used to seeing the world change rapidly around him. The significance of what they had experienced in Lorien didn't impress itself upon him. Frodo and Aragorn pretty much dispell all question of what happened. They say that time flowed differently, and we know it was because of the Elven ring. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:42:46 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944063239 24.128.99.214 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:47:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:47:19 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > [snip some Legolas bashing > /] Frodo and Aragorn pretty much dispell all question of what > happened. They say that time flowed differently, and we know it was because of the Elven > ring. Frodo is theorizing only, due to the qualifiers 'maybe' and 'I think', and amends his explanation after Legolas' correction. Legolas also says: 'For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow ...' Now time can't do >that< literally -- so Legolas is obviously speaking figuratively there, and he gives his reasons in the rest of the passage. Aragorn does _not_ say that time flowed differently -- he tells Sam that he (Sam) has lost count, THEN he likens the time flow in Lorien as >swift< 'as for the Elves' -- relating the experience to the figurative meaning that Legolas explained only moments before. Aragorn does not say 'Sam your count is correct, but time flows differently in Lorien', he explains that the company tarried in Lorien long enough for the moon to be correct as Sam sees it from the River. Basically, Sam's comment that it couldn't have been a whole month is corrected by Aragorn. Aragorn has been there before, Legolas is an Elf in an Elvish land -- neither Aragorn or Legolas are as fooled by the preservation power of Nenya. Also Legolas proves he is not so clueless by his statement: 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike.' -- Cian ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:13:03 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 16:05:43 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Nope. Time runs differently in Lorien than elsewhere in Middle-earth. You >even started to quote from the very passage where Frodo confirms this. The >Rings of Power were created to hold back Time. No, the Three Rings hold back *decay*, the "wearing of things". If they could hold back Time, Gandalf would have used the one he bore to give the good guys extra time to flee pursuers in Moria. "'Did you not hear me, Glóin?' said Elrond. 'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow.'" -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:14:04 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <19991130111333.14288.00000051@ngol04.aol.com> <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 16:06:45 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran differently in >Lorien. Q.E.D. Where? I have just searched my copy on disk, and find no such statement. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:15:56 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com> <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 16:08:36 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: >>In article <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >>Martinez) writes: >> >>>Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran differently in >>>Lorien. Q.E.D. >>> I asked, where does JRRT say that? MM responds with four quotes from the Letters, all of which say something other than that the rings hold back time. They hold back many ill effects of time, but not time itself. Thanks, Michael. Once again you have posted quotes that refute your own point. >Here is what Tolkien says: > > The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or > slowing of DECAY (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), > the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- > this is more or less an Elvish motive.... > (From Letter 131) > > ...The Ring is losted, for ever it is hoped; and the Three Rings > of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in > preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted > enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is > restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West. > (Ibid.) > > ...Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders > of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back > time, and depart. > (Letter 144) > > ...But the Elves are NOT wholly good or in the right. Not so > much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or > without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted > to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal > historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it > (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a > superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, > stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a > desert, where they could be 'artists' -- and they were > overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret.... > (Letter 154) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### Message-ID: <384559C5.201A1307@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:24:21 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944069334 24.128.99.214 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:28:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:28:54 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > [snip of me] > > You're obviously not checking the book: > > 'But the wearing is slow in Lorien,' said Frodo. 'The power of > the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, > in Caras Galadon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.' > > 'That should not have been said outside Lorien, not even to me,' > said Aragorn. 'Speak no more of it! But so it is. Sam: in > that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by > us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon > waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. > And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. > Time flows on to a spring of little hope.' > > THERE TIME FLOWED SWIFTLY BY US. That's part of a sentence -- 'as for the Elves' is an important addition to it, not to mention that time can flow swiftly by in a non literal sense. I've checked and read the passages above before I posted my original thoughts some days ago, and Aragorn simply does not use the words 'time flowed differently' -- that's a conclusion. The above quote of Frodo's I actually used in my original post to bolster my opinion. Einstein did not write LOTR of course, but different rates of time can indeed be a part of Fantasy -- did Tolkien ultimately reject this idea is the question. Are you offering that Legolas was speaking about actual rates of time in the following?-- 'For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves.' -- Cian ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:27:26 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 17:20:06 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Sure it can. Ever hear of Relativity? Einstein wasn't the first person to >propose it. Every folktale dealing with a visit to Elfland which preceded him >talked about time moving at different speeds. As it happens, I majored in physics in college, so I have done a bit more than "hear about" relativity. For the time difference to be perceptible, the relative speeds must be a significant fraction of the speed of light. The conversion factor is sqrt(1 - beta^2) where beta is your fraction of the speed of light. Relativity is not a factor unless Lorien is physically moving with respect to the rest of Middle-earth, at a speed difference of say 93,000 miles a second. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Dec 1999 15:04:14 GMT References: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: >>Holds back time in what way. All watches stop? or in a way such as aging >>slower and showing signs of being "well preserved" like Bilbo & Frodo? I >don't >>think the first is right and there are at least obvious examples of the >latter. >> The clock didn't slow for our fearless hobbits, but they did weather it a >>little better in some ways. > >Here is what Tolkien says: > > The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or > slowing of DECAY (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), > the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- > this is more or less an Elvish motive.... > (From Letter 131) Sounds a lot like my second option. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Dec 1999 15:04:15 GMT References: <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991201100415.14368.00000170@ngol06.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: >But *why* is Galadriel slowing down time? Is Galadriel slowing down time or is it an automatic effect of the ring in regards to things in its proximity, or a combination of the two? I don't know, but IMO the last, because Bllbo certainly didn't willfully slow his own aging, yet if it it was so wide spread in Lorien, Bilbo's garden and Hobbiton in general would have been wonderful all year round. PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:19:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944065162 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:19:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:19:22 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > In article <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >It looks to me as if all but one of your cited quotes work at _least_ > >as well as support for the view that not time itself but the wearing > >and decay due to time were slowed by the Rings: > Tolkien summarized the effect as "hold back Time". Apparently he > felt that was sufficient. Didn't I address this point in my discussion of your third quote? (That does seem to be where you get the exact wording you are using, after all.) I find it odd to give the greatest weight to the briefest and least detailed of all the relevant passages. > Clearly stopping or preventing change in Middle-earth is not simply > "holding back wearing and decay". But those are very nearly the words that he repeatedly used himself in all the other quotes that you cited. At the very least, his repeated use of language that seems to match the reading that I support should make the issue less than "clear". Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823hqn$1a8_022@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <38442447.E874E3F3@mediaone.net> <821o5j$17o_022@news.uswest.net> <3844986B.B427E9CF@mediaone.net> <822k85$2i0_014@news.uswest.net> <38452046.239C04FB@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:19:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944065071 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:17:51 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:17:51 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <38452046.239C04FB@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Faster or slower is what was rejected imo -- 'Better to have no time >difference' means to me _'not faster or slower'_ and this is reflected >in the language of the changes made (from the drafts) to the published >texts and the Tale of Years -- not to mention the language of the quotes >you offered that Steuard already commented on (as I would have commented >similarly) The book clearly states that more time passed OUTSIDE of Lorien than inside it. "Better to have no time difference" is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the final text. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "J Tierney" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:24:15 -0000 Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Lines: 30 Message-ID: <823hpp$g6m$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.46.139.46 X-Trace: news1.cableinet.co.uk 944065145 16598 212.46.139.46 (1 Dec 1999 16:19:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cableinet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 16:19:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news5.cableinet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!cableinet-uk!news1.cableinet.co.uk!not-for-mail Stan Brown wrote in message ... >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >"'Did you not hear me, Glóin?' said Elrond. 'The Three were not made by >Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to >speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not >idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not >their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or >hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all >things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some >measure gained, though with sorrow.'" > Can this be read to equate Vilya (Elrond) with understanding, Narya (Gandalf) with making and Nenya (Galadriel) with healing? >-- >Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA > http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ >Tolkien FAQs: >http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) >http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) >more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm -- The Senior Wrangler ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823i45$1a8_024@news.uswest.net> References: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:24:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944065280 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:21:20 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:21:20 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: >In article <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) writes: > >> >>Here is what Tolkien says: >> >> The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or >> slowing of DECAY (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), >> the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- >> this is more or less an Elvish motive.... >> (From Letter 131) > >Sounds a lot like my second option. Well, and so much for all those OTHER quotes.... -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 49 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:43:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944066439 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:40:39 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:40:39 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> [snip some Legolas bashing > /] Frodo and Aragorn pretty much dispell all >> question of what happened. They say that time flowed differently, and we >> know it was because of the Elven ring. > >Frodo is theorizing only, due to the qualifiers 'maybe' and 'I think', and >amends his explanation after Legolas' correction. Legolas also says: >'For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow ...' And yet Aragorn comes back and agrees with Frodo. TIME MOVED DIFFERENTLY. You have taken a passage out of context and are trying to apply it to a text for which it was not written. >Now time can't do >that< literally [snip] Sure it can. Ever hear of Relativity? Einstein wasn't the first person to propose it. Every folktale dealing with a visit to Elfland which preceded him talked about time moving at different speeds. >Aragorn does not say 'Sam your count is correct, but time flows differently >in Lorien', he explains that the company tarried in Lorien long enough for >the moon to be correct as Sam sees it from the River. You're obviously not checking the book: 'But the wearing is slow in Lorien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.' 'That should not have been said outside Lorien, not even to me,' said Aragorn. 'Speak no more of it! But so it is. Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.' THERE TIME FLOWED SWIFTLY BY US. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 41 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:46:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944066592 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:43:12 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:43:12 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): >> In article <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu >> (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >It looks to me as if all but one of your cited quotes work at _least_ >> >as well as support for the view that not time itself but the wearing >> >and decay due to time were slowed by the Rings: > >> Tolkien summarized the effect as "hold back Time". Apparently he >> felt that was sufficient. > >Didn't I address this point in my discussion of your third quote? >(That does seem to be where you get the exact wording you are using, >after all.) I find it odd to give the greatest weight to the briefest >and least detailed of all the relevant passages. Which part of the word "summarized" is causing you distress, Steuard? Why isn't it sufficient to use Tolkien's only summarization of the effects, rather than to go into some long-winded barrage of deduction and analysis only to conclude that the Rings held back Time? >> Clearly stopping or preventing change in Middle-earth is not simply >> "holding back wearing and decay". > >But those are very nearly the words that he repeatedly used himself in >all the other quotes that you cited. And he summarized the effect as holding back Time. What's the problem here? If Tolkien equates A with B that isn't good enough? Stop and think about what you're actually arguing with, Steuard. I'm just quoting Tolkien in a concise fashion. There is nothing wrong or misleading in doing so. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823ji3$1a8_036@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <823hpp$g6m$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 16:49:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944066750 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:45:50 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 10:45:50 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <823hpp$g6m$1@news1.cableinet.co.uk>, "J Tierney" wrote: >Stan Brown wrote in message ... >>Can this be read to equate Vilya (Elrond) with understanding, Narya >>(Gandalf) with making and Nenya (Galadriel) with healing? Yes, it can be read that way, but that does not appear to be what Tolkien intended. For one thing, Elrond was the great healer, Galadriel was the one who liked to make stuff, and Gandalf was running around kindling hearts. The three goals applied to the makers of the Rings, not to the individual Rings. The Rings each helped to achieve those goals. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <823ma7$1a8_070@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> <384559C5.201A1307@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 17:36:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.224 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944069569 209.181.118.224 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:32:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:32:49 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <384559C5.201A1307@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >That's part of a sentence -- 'as for the Elves' is an important addition >to it, not to mention that time can flow swiftly by in a non literal sense. [big snip] *BIG SIGH* Yes, it's part of a sentence, but it makes the point. Time flowed differently in Lorien than elsewhere, Aragorn points out that it does so, and Frodo explains WHY it does so. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:26:59 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.91 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 23:19:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >As it happens, I majored in physics in college, so I have done a bit more >than "hear about" relativity. I apologize for the duplicate follow-ups. My newsreader hiccuped. I canceled one of them, but it seems the cancellation was too late. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:35:31 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.91 X-Server-Date: 1 Dec 1999 23:28:12 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.fh-hannover.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Perhaps we're using the phrase "hold back Time" in different ways. >If I said that time is being literally held back in Lorien, I mean >that my watch would tick slower if I went there. As it is, I do _not_ >think that would happen. Rather, I believe that my watch would >function as usual, but that the "wearing" and "decay" associated with >the passage of time (interpret as you will) would be slowed. I think so too. If the Three could actually "hold back time", then Gandalf would have used his Ring to give the Nine Walkers extra time to escape the pursuit in Moria, and they would have been gone before the Balrog reached the great hall. >No, I >don't know how to make this scientifically precise. :) Actually, the concept of "entropy" comes in here. Kind of. One of the laws of thermodynamics is that the entropy of a closed system (e.g. the Universe) increases over time. There are technical definitions of entropy, but a rough-and-ready definition is "disorder" or "randomness". If you compare (A) 2 cups boiling water side-by-side with 2 cups of ice and (B) the result of mixing them and stirring, A has lower entropy than B because A has more order than B. They have the same amount of energy, but A has more *available* energy, energy available to do work. It is a characteristic of living things that they appear to reverse entropy. You take in disorganized chemicals and use them to build highly organized cells. The trick is that you're not a closed system: ultimately this is all powered by the Sun, which gives energy for plants to grow, and you use that energy (possibly as concentrated by animals that ate the plants, or animals that ate the animals that ...) to build your cells. As soon as an organism dies, it starts to rot, and its entropy begins to increase. So in a sense we might say that the Three Rings selectively slow the increase of entropy. They slow the "falling to bits" of the world, especially the process of decay. However, I think Tolkien was thinking more of metaphorical decay, moral and spiritual decay, than of mere physical decay. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 43 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:01:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944082100 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:01:40 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:01:40 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > >> Tolkien summarized the effect as "hold back Time". Apparently he > >> felt that was sufficient. > >Didn't I address this point in my discussion of your third quote? > Which part of the word "summarized" is causing you distress, > Steuard? I guess it's the assumption that Tolkien's use of "hold back Time" was a summary rather than a shorthand. I, at least, can't tell from the quote provided which of those possibilities he intended. Did he use the short phrase "hold back Time" because it explained the central effect of literally holding back time? Or did he use it because it was a concise way of conveying the general idea of what happened, despite being literally untrue? I would generally lean toward the former, if there wre no other places where he discussed the issue. However, I find it very significant that Tolkien never used the phrase "hold back Time" when he spent more than half a sentence discussing the issue (at least among the quotes you cited). I think that if literally holding back time was the essence of how the Rings worked, his longer explanations would at least mention it. Instead, they mention _only_ various effects of the passage of time that were retarded. > Why isn't it sufficient to use Tolkien's only summarization of the > effects, rather than to go into some long-winded barrage of > deduction and analysis only to conclude that the Rings held back > Time? Perhaps we're using the phrase "hold back Time" in different ways. If I said that time is being literally held back in Lorien, I mean that my watch would tick slower if I went there. As it is, I do _not_ think that would happen. Rather, I believe that my watch would function as usual, but that the "wearing" and "decay" associated with the passage of time (interpret as you will) would be slowed. No, I don't know how to make this scientifically precise. :) The point is, I don't conclude that the Rings would slow watches. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:14:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.232 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944082685 207.224.149.232 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:11:25 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:11:25 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): >> Which part of the word "summarized" is causing you distress, >> Steuard? > >I guess it's the assumption that Tolkien's use of "hold back Time" was >a summary rather than a shorthand. Try again. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad B. Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <19991130135034.14501.00000080@ngol02.aol.com> <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <%6214.506$iT1.10597@uchinews> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:52:25 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.107.140.157 X-Trace: reader1.interactive.net 944103208 216.107.140.157 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:53:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:53:28 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!cyclone.interactive.net!reader1.interactive.net!not-for-mail On the question of whether the Rings slowed time or merely decay; "The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance..." Letters #131 "But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change... Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), and to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change..." Letters #181 ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 00:10:56 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-278.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews5 On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:27:37 -0500, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) posted the following: >Relativity is not a factor unless Lorien is physically moving with >respect to the rest of Middle-earth, at a speed difference of say 93,000 >miles a second. I think the point was not that relativity was applicable to Lorien. Rather, MM was giving an example of how time could move at different speeds. -Chris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 21 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:11:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944104280 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:11:20 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:11:20 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Sure it can. Ever hear of Relativity? Einstein wasn't the first > >person to propose it. > Relativity is not a factor unless Lorien is physically moving with > respect to the rest of Middle-earth Not to be overly picky or anything, but you needn't restrict yourself to _special_ relativity. In general relativity, we learn that gravitational fields change the flow of time just as accelerations do. That is, someone sitting right next to a black hole will age a great deal slower than the folks back home. (They'll also suffer some awful stomach aches, but we won't get into that.) Of course, none of that is to say that the Rings were actually contained black holes... but the point is that Lorien wouldn't actually need to be moving relative to the rest of Middle-earth for relativity to have an effect. All of this is, I suspect, entirely unimportant for Michael's point. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com> <823i45$1a8_024@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4yl14.58$tZ6.1026@uchinews> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:18:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944104704 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:18:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:18:24 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: > >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: > >>Here is what Tolkien says: [snip] > >Sounds a lot like my second option. > Well, and so much for all those OTHER quotes.... As I pointed out in another reply, all but one of those OTHER quotes also sound like Paul's second option. It looks like you agree with me on that, as your replies to my arguments have focused entirely on that one exception. Why does one quote count more than the other three? (Or more than the other five, if you count Conrad's additions.) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 24 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:24:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944105053 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:24:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:24:13 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > >> Which part of the word "summarized" is causing you distress, > >> Steuard? (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >I guess it's the assumption that Tolkien's use of "hold back Time" was > >a summary rather than a shorthand. Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > Try again. I don't quite understand your response. You asked what about "summarized" was "causing me distress". I told you. Are you saying that I was wrong about what my concern was? What sort of second, different explanation of what bothered me about "summarized" _would_ be acceptable? If you meant that my concern was invalid, I would at least appreciate a brief explanation of why that would be. I can't see a good way to decide between "summary" and "shorthand" (at least, not without looking at all the other quotes you presented, which have mostly convinced me that it _was_ "shorthand"). If you've got one, then by all means, let us know! Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 45 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:35:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944105718 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:35:18 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:35:18 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > If the Three could actually "hold back time", then Gandalf would > have used his Ring to give the Nine Walkers extra time to escape the > pursuit in Moria I'm afraid I've got to nitpick here, or at least raise a concern: it's always seemed to me that whatever effects the Rings have, they have them on at _least_ their wearers. Thus, if Gandalf used his Ring to slow time in Moria, then at least he (and probably those nearby: the fellowship) would have been moving _slower_ than the persuit. The Orcs would probably start wondering what was taking them so long. :) On another note, concerning another branch of this thread, it is clear that Gandalf was _not_ dragging some sort of Slo-Time envelope around the world with him. Thus, it seems likely that either 1) conscious effort or choice was necessary before a Ring's effects extended beyond its wearer, 2) his Ring's effects were not particularly perceptable to those around him, even those who spent a great deal of time with him, or 3) both. [I wrote:] > >No, I don't know how to make this scientifically precise. :) > Actually, the concept of "entropy" comes in here. Kind of. Interesting thought. I hadn't thought of the Rings as some sort of "Maxwell's Demon", but why not? (They might or might not require an energy source, depending on how much they were like Maxwell's example... but that Melkorian essence throughout the world could be just the thing.) Verrry intriguing. > However, I think Tolkien was thinking > more of metaphorical decay, moral and spiritual decay, than of mere > physical decay. I half agree and half disagree here. The Elves clearly wanted to slow down their wearying and fading over time, and those may well be spiritual effects (although the wraith world/spirit world/world of the Unseen seems to have been a very real and in some sense physical part of Middle-earth). However, part of their desire was simply for the world around them to stop falling apart and rotting away so quickly. Even if they could fix onlythat (i.e. slow only purely physical decay), it would still make life a good bit more bearable for them. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 172-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 64 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:24:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944122880 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:21:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:21:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!172-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:50:24 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>Elrond certainly didn't reveal all he knew about the Rings at the >>Council. He said that he's not allowed to talk about them. In >>particular, he didn't reveal that he had one of them. > >No, he said he wasn't permitted to speak of the Three -- to give their >whereabouts or to explain how they were being used. But he did say they were >not made for war and that they were not idle. Thank you for the extensive quote, Michael, but it's irrelevant. [snip] I said that Elrond DIDN'T REVEAL ALL HE KNEW ABOUT THE RINGS. Are you disputing that? If so, (I have to do this, just this once) TOLKIEN DISAGREES WITH YOU. Otherwise, calm down. >>I'd guess that he's clueless, if that really is what he meant. (It >>seems plausible that his statement that "time does not tarry ever" >>could be interpreted in at least two radically different ways, >>especially in light of Tolkien's writing style.) > >Legolas was not a Noldo, nor part of the great nation of Eregion. His >understanding of the Rings of Power would be limited to whatever knowledge the >Noldor let out to other Elves, and they don't seem to have gone blabbing about >what they did. No, but Legolas should have had some idea that Lorien was a more 'Elvish' land than, let's say, Mirkwood. The whole point of making the Three was to create an environment that doesn't decay with time, because the Elves don't like when things decay with time. If an Elf can walk into an area that's under the influence of one of the Three and not notice, I'd say they don't work very well. He might not have known that there was a Ring involved, of course, but he should have realized that *something* was altering time. >>Based on this, I'd guess that Legolas didn't actually mean that time >>couldn't be altered. > >I would guess that Legolas was so used to perceiving the world in the Elvish >way that he didn't appreciate the significance of the difference. Galadriel But Legolas was used to perceiving the world the way an Elf sees a mortal world: it's all decaying and crumbling and falling apart. He should have perceived Lorien as a particularly Elvish place. >didn't have to willingly hold back Time. Her Ring would do that whether she >wore it or not. Legolas was used to seeing the world change rapidly around >him. The significance of what they had experienced in Lorien didn't impress >itself upon him. Frodo and Aragorn pretty much dispell all question of what Why didn't it? It impressed itself on the mortals, but it didn't impress itself on the Elves? If an Elf fell asleep and they loaded him onto the next ship heading west and he woke up in Tirion, would he not notice the difference? ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 172-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:30:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944123274 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:27:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:27:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!172-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:35:31 -0500, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >I think so too. If the Three could actually "hold back time", then >Gandalf would have used his Ring to give the Nine Walkers extra time to >escape the pursuit in Moria, and they would have been gone before the >Balrog reached the great hall. No, if the Three could actually 'hold back time', nobody would notice, except maybe on the boundary. Within an area in which time is being slowed, you can't detect the difference. (Of course, it's possible to slow time progressively over an area, so that it's *all* boundary, but that has certain unpleasant side effects.) >Actually, the concept of "entropy" comes in here. Kind of. One of the >laws of thermodynamics is that the entropy of a closed system (e.g. the >Universe) increases over time. There are technical definitions of >entropy, but a rough-and-ready definition is "disorder" or "randomness". I think entropy is an excellent model for this. The Rings don't hold back time. What they do is hold back entropy. That's why Lorien can last for thousands of years without anything decaying or falling apart--the energy states of things don't equalize as quickly as they would anywhere else. (And Michael, if you're reading this, please don't parrot your half-sentence in which Tolkien Said The Rings Hold Back Time(tm). The effects of the Rings clearly show that what they actually hold back is entropy, not time.) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825eks$1pg_020@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:37:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944127253 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:34:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:34:13 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!feeder.via.net!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: >On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:27:37 -0500, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) >posted the following: > >>Relativity is not a factor unless Lorien is physically moving with >>respect to the rest of Middle-earth, at a speed difference of say 93,000 >>miles a second. > >I think the point was not that relativity was applicable to Lorien. >Rather, MM was giving an example of how time could move at different >speeds. Actually, it was a play on words intended to confound and confusticate. I was not in a good mood. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825en7$1pg_022@news.uswest.net> References: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com> <823i45$1a8_024@news.uswest.net> <4yl14.58$tZ6.1026@uchinews> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:38:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944127328 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:35:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:35:28 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <4yl14.58$tZ6.1026@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >As I pointed out in another reply, all but one of those OTHER quotes >also sound like Paul's second option. It looks like you agree with me >on that, as your replies to my arguments have focused entirely on that >one exception. Why does one quote count more than the other three? >(Or more than the other five, if you count Conrad's additions.) Because the other three don't SUMMARIZE the effect. That one quote does, and when seeking a Tolkien summarization, I found it was the only one available. What's it going to take to get that point across? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <38466D42.F69CA468@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com> <825eks$1pg_020@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:59:46 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944139862 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:04:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:04:22 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: > > >I think the point was not that relativity was applicable to Lorien. > >Rather, MM was giving an example of how time could move at different > >speeds. > > Actually, it was a play on words intended to confound and confusticate. I was > not in a good mood. And it worked! :) Actually I reprimand myself for asking you to explain it. There's no room for Einstein in the profound beauty, joy and sadness of Lorien -- for me anyway. -- Cian ###### Message-ID: <384679E3.85E0848F@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:53:39 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944143095 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:58:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:58:15 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote, regarding Prince Greenleaf: > [snip] > He might not have known that there was a Ring involved, of course, but > he should have realized that *something* was altering time. I agree; Legolas must have been aware (in Elf fashion) of the preservation power in Lorien. His statement 'change and growth is not in all things and places alike' is at least somewhat indicative of this, and very near the mark regardless of an exact knowledge of Galadriel's ring. There was such a deep and wondrous magic on Lorien the Hobbits couldn't even adequately describe it. The preservation power was evident in every leaf and blade of grass -- to Legolas, a lesser semblance of Aman itself! And Legolas' statement is imo, also very similar to much of the description of Elvish ring power found in letters, which is why I thought (not sure though, especially after reading this thread!:o) that Tolkien himself, in a sense, was correcting Frodo through Legolas (upon the Great River) ###### Message-ID: <384680E9.E3997173@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com> <823i45$1a8_024@news.uswest.net> <4yl14.58$tZ6.1026@uchinews> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:23:37 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944144893 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:28:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:28:13 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote: > Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > > pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) wrote: > > >Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: > > >>Here is what Tolkien says: > [snip] > > > >Sounds a lot like my second option. > > > Well, and so much for all those OTHER quotes.... > > As I pointed out in another reply, all but one of those OTHER quotes > also sound like Paul's second option. It looks like you agree with me > on that, as your replies to my arguments have focused entirely on that > one exception. Why does one quote count more than the other three? > (Or more than the other five, if you count Conrad's additions.) Agreed Steuard, as the given quotes stand, 4 out of 5 seem to me to be in support of an 'effect' theory, which has influenced my reading of 'in story' evidence I guess. The 'hold back time' quote can be taken literally, or as shorthand as you say, but I think Michael's offerring of this 1 quote as somehow the summarization of Tolkien's thoughts improperly qualifies the language of the other 4 -- the language of the other four tell us just as much, if not more really, of how Tolkien viewed the matter. -- Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 34 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:40:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944127457 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:37:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:37:37 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): >> >> Which part of the word "summarized" is causing you distress, >> >> Steuard? > >(Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> >I guess it's the assumption that Tolkien's use of "hold back Time" was >> >a summary rather than a shorthand. > >Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): >> Try again. > >I don't quite understand your response. You asked what about >"summarized" was "causing me distress". I told you. Are you saying >that I was wrong about what my concern was? What sort of second, >different explanation of what bothered me about "summarized" _would_ >be acceptable? If you're going to tell me I'm making an assumption, you could at least do me the courtesy of explaining how I'm making an assumption. Whatever complaints I may engender for being "rude" (whatever THAT means around here), I do at least try to explain why people's assumptions are assumptions, or how they are assumptions, by pointing out what we do and don't know from the texts. So, explain yourself. How am I assuming anything when I say Tolkien is using "hold back Time" (a phrase which he uses at least twice) as a summary of the effect of the Rings? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825et7$1pg_026@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:41:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944127521 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:38:41 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:38:41 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): >> If the Three could actually "hold back time", then Gandalf would >> have used his Ring to give the Nine Walkers extra time to escape the >> pursuit in Moria > >I'm afraid I've got to nitpick here, or at least raise a concern: it's >always seemed to me that whatever effects the Rings have, they have >them on at _least_ their wearers. Thus, if Gandalf used his Ring to >slow time in Moria, then at least he (and probably those nearby: the >fellowship) would have been moving _slower_ than the persuit. The >Orcs would probably start wondering what was taking them so long. :) The Rings were created to preserve Middle-earth, not to let individuals play with Time as in "The Girl, The Gold Watch, and Everything". -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 106 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:50:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944128036 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:47:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:47:16 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:50:24 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>>Elrond certainly didn't reveal all he knew about the Rings at the >>>Council. He said that he's not allowed to talk about them. In >>>particular, he didn't reveal that he had one of them. >> >>No, he said he wasn't permitted to speak of the Three -- to give their >>whereabouts or to explain how they were being used. But he did say they were >>not made for war and that they were not idle. > >Thank you for the extensive quote, Michael, but it's irrelevant. No, as usual, it's quite relevant. Your summarization of what Elrond said was incorrect, and I showed that by citing the text. Just because you're wrong about what the book says doesn't make the book irrelevant. [snip] >>>I'd guess that he's clueless, if that really is what he meant. (It >>>seems plausible that his statement that "time does not tarry ever" >>>could be interpreted in at least two radically different ways, >>>especially in light of Tolkien's writing style.) >> >>Legolas was not a Noldo, nor part of the great nation of Eregion. His >>understanding of the Rings of Power would be limited to whatever knowledge >>the Noldor let out to other Elves, and they don't seem to have gone >>blabbing about what they did. > >No, but Legolas should have had some idea that Lorien was a more >'Elvish' land than, let's say, Mirkwood.... Why? He apparently had never been there before. What should he have noticed was so different from Mirkwood while wandering around playing tourist? Well, let's see: there were mallorns, Eldarin lamps, people living in a tree city (his own folk apparently either lived in Thranduil's halls or in houses on the ground), grey Elven cloaks, etc., etc. Somewhere in all that Legolas is supposed to stop and go, "Hm. This land seems more Elvish than my own -- there must be a Ring of Power at work here!"? Why? >...The whole point of making the Three was to create an environment >that doesn't decay with time, because the Elves don't like when >things decay with time. If an Elf can walk into an area that's >under the influence of one of the Three and not notice, I'd say >they don't work very well. The whole point behind ALL the Rings of Power was to hold back Time. The Elves weren't aiming for just enclaves, but for as much of Middle-earth as they could influence. And there is evidence to indicate that influence extended well beyond Rivendell and Lorien. Nonetheless, Legolas' people were quite different from the Elves of Lorien. There was a great deal for him to soak up, and noticing that an Elven Ring was at work when he didn't even know where they were is asking a lot of the character. >He might not have known that there was a Ring involved, of course, but >he should have realized that *something* was altering time. Why? Was he ducking outside the forest every other day and checking the moon's shape and position? From what I read in the book, he spent a great deal of his time there forging a friendship with Gimli. I'd say Legolas had other things on his mind and he simply didn't give the matter any thought until Sam brought it up on the River. >>>Based on this, I'd guess that Legolas didn't actually mean that time >>>couldn't be altered. >> >>I would guess that Legolas was so used to perceiving the world in the Elvish >>way that he didn't appreciate the significance of the difference. Galadriel > >But Legolas was used to perceiving the world the way an Elf sees a >mortal world: it's all decaying and crumbling and falling apart. He >should have perceived Lorien as a particularly Elvish place. Why? He was an Elf and his people practiced "Elvish magic". He wasn't in Lorien long enough to notice things weren't changing very fast, but there were certainly all sorts of indication of great change which had occurred. The visit to Cerin Amroth is one of those indications, and the discussions with Galadriel and Celeborn were also indications. What are the signs that should scream out to an Elf of Mirkwood that a land is more "Elvish" than his own? >>didn't have to willingly hold back Time. Her Ring would do that whether she >>wore it or not. Legolas was used to seeing the world change rapidly around >>him. The significance of what they had experienced in Lorien didn't impress >>itself upon him. Frodo and Aragorn pretty much dispell all question of what > >Why didn't it? It impressed itself on the mortals, but it didn't >impress itself on the Elves? If an Elf fell asleep and they loaded >him onto the next ship heading west and he woke up in Tirion, would he >not notice the difference? Until Sam spoke up I didn't notice any impression on the mortals about what was happening in Lorien. Had Sam kept his mouth shut, they never would have had that discussion. Where does the book say that everyone but Legolas left Lorien wondering how the heck they had lost so much time? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:52:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.200 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944128172 207.224.149.200 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:49:32 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 03:49:32 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >(And Michael, if you're reading this, please don't parrot your >half-sentence in which Tolkien Said The Rings Hold Back Time(tm). The >effects of the Rings clearly show that what they actually hold back is >entropy, not time.) Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. He didn't speak about entropy. You have some work ahead of you if you want to make that connection work any better than the sentience connection. Time, of course, is simply a measurement of entropy, by one definition. So holding back entropy holds back time. We really don't understand what Tolkien meant by "hold back time" or "prevent change". It's not likely anyone will unveil the secrets of Tolkien's Rings in the next few days, either. But I'll wait and see. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <38469784.E9993C83@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <384679E3.85E0848F@mediaone.net> <82656q$194_012@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:00:04 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944150679 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:04:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:04:39 EST Organization: Road Runner Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news-feed.fnsi.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > The Hobbits went ga-ga every time they got around Elves, Rings or no Rings. > They were probably having constant orgasms the first week or so on the road > with Legolas. Heh, true enough on the ga-ga -- but oh what you said in that last part! ###### Message-ID: <3846A2FA.2C098BBA@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com> <825eks$1pg_020@news.uswest.net> <38466D42.F69CA468@mediaone.net> <38469777.1FB62F4C@cable.A2000.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:48:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944153613 24.128.99.214 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:53:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:53:33 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail "R. Vink" wrote: > Cian wrote: > > There's no room for Einstein in the profound beauty, joy and sadness of >Lorien -- for me > anyway. > > But he might have loved the place! Oh alright. But mortals pay double room rates in Caras Galadon! -- Cian ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB wasjustPaul) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Dec 1999 14:35:02 GMT References: <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991202093502.03574.00000039@ngol07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: >If an Elf fell asleep and they loaded >him onto the next ship heading west and he woke up in Tirion, would he >not notice the difference? > > If an elf falls asleep in the woods & there's nobody there to see him, does he know what time it is? (ba-dum-bum) PB "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." -JRRT ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82656q$194_012@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <384679E3.85E0848F@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 35 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:02:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.114 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944150355 209.181.118.114 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:59:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:59:15 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <384679E3.85E0848F@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Mark Wells wrote, regarding Prince Greenleaf: > >> [snip] >> He might not have known that there was a Ring involved, of course, but >> he should have realized that *something* was altering time. > >I agree; Legolas must have been aware (in Elf fashion) of the preservation >power in Lorien. His statement 'change and growth is not in all things and >places alike' is at least somewhat indicative of this, and very near the >mark regardless of an exact knowledge of Galadriel's ring. Maybe. Maybe not. It implies many things, but is never explained. >There was such a deep and wondrous magic on Lorien the Hobbits couldn't even >adequately describe it. The preservation power was evident in every leaf and >blade of grass -- to Legolas, a lesser semblance of Aman itself! And Legolas' >statement is imo, also very similar to much of the description of Elvish ring >power found in letters, which is why I thought (not sure though, especially >after reading this thread!:o) that Tolkien himself, in a sense, was >correcting Frodo through Legolas (upon the Great River) The Hobbits went ga-ga every time they got around Elves, Rings or no Rings. They were probably having constant orgasms the first week or so on the road with Legolas. Their sense of wonder at Lorien is not indicative of anything in particular, and until Sam complained about the passage of time it was a non-issue. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82658h$194_014@news.uswest.net> References: <821ngp$17o_020@news.uswest.net> <19991201100414.14368.00000169@ngol06.aol.com> <823i45$1a8_024@news.uswest.net> <4yl14.58$tZ6.1026@uchinews> <384680E9.E3997173@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:03:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.114 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944150409 209.181.118.114 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:00:09 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:00:09 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <384680E9.E3997173@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: [sinp] >but I think Michael's offerring of this 1 quote as somehow the >summarization of Tolkien's thoughts improperly qualifies the language of >the other 4 -- the language of the other four tell us just as much, if not >more really, of how Tolkien viewed the matter. It is NOT Michael's summarization, but J.R.R. Tolkien's, for crying out loud! -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "R. Vink" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:59:51 +0100 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 29 Message-ID: <38469777.1FB62F4C@cable.A2000.nl> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <384541F5.8866A4E@mediaone.net> <823j8c$1a8_032@news.uswest.net> <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com> <825eks$1pg_020@news.uswest.net> <38466D42.F69CA468@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 944150357 24996 62.108.12.92 (2 Dec 1999 15:59:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 1999 15:59:17 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Cian wrote: > Michael Martinez wrote: > > > In article <3845b8ea.10988161@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: > > > > >I think the point was not that relativity was applicable to Lorien. > > >Rather, MM was giving an example of how time could move at different > > >speeds. > > > > Actually, it was a play on words intended to confound and confusticate. I was > > not in a good mood. > > And it worked! :) Actually I reprimand myself for asking you to explain it. > There's no room for Einstein in the profound beauty, joy and sadness of Lorien -- for me > anyway. > -- > Cian But he might have loved the place! Renée V. -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:09:59 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.eb X-Server-Date: 2 Dec 1999 23:05:11 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): >> If the Three could actually "hold back time", then Gandalf would >> have used his Ring to give the Nine Walkers extra time to escape the >> pursuit in Moria > >I'm afraid I've got to nitpick here, or at least raise a concern: it's >always seemed to me that whatever effects the Rings have, they have >them on at _least_ their wearers. Thus, if Gandalf used his Ring to >slow time in Moria, then at least he (and probably those nearby: the >fellowship) would have been moving _slower_ than the persuit. The >Orcs would probably start wondering what was taking them so long. :) I wouldn't consider it nitpicking at all -- you've pointed out that I got it precisely backwards. I think we're in agreement, based on the cited quotes, that the Three Rings didn't actually affect the rate of flow of time. But the reason I gave is no good because the effect would, as you say, be backwards from what I said. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html (Jensen) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ (Loos) more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 216-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 79 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:12:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944161771 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:09:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:09:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!216-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:50:33 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >In article <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >>On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:50:24 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >>Martinez) wrote: >> >>>>Elrond certainly didn't reveal all he knew about the Rings at the >>>>Council. He said that he's not allowed to talk about them. In >>>>particular, he didn't reveal that he had one of them. >>> >>>No, he said he wasn't permitted to speak of the Three -- to give their >>>whereabouts or to explain how they were being used. But he did say they were >>>not made for war and that they were not idle. >> >>Thank you for the extensive quote, Michael, but it's irrelevant. > >No, as usual, it's quite relevant. Your summarization of what Elrond said was >incorrect, and I showed that by citing the text. > >Just because you're wrong about what the book says doesn't make the book >irrelevant. Oh, I'm sorry. I said he's not allowed to talk about them. The book says he's not permitted to speak of them. My mistake. I'll remember not to post anything here unless it's a verbatim excerpt from Tolkien. >>No, but Legolas should have had some idea that Lorien was a more >>'Elvish' land than, let's say, Mirkwood.... > >Why? He apparently had never been there before. What should he have noticed >was so different from Mirkwood while wandering around playing tourist? Well, >let's see: there were mallorns, Eldarin lamps, people living in a tree city >(his own folk apparently either lived in Thranduil's halls or in houses on the >ground), grey Elven cloaks, etc., etc. Somewhere in all that Legolas is >supposed to stop and go, "Hm. This land seems more Elvish than my own -- >there must be a Ring of Power at work here!"? Why? No. As I said, >>He might not have known that there was a Ring involved, of course, but >>he should have realized that *something* was altering time. He should have noticed that there was something holding back time, because that's the only way a land as Elvish as Lorien could exist in Middle-earth. >>...The whole point of making the Three was to create an environment >>that doesn't decay with time, because the Elves don't like when >>things decay with time. If an Elf can walk into an area that's >>under the influence of one of the Three and not notice, I'd say >>they don't work very well. > >The whole point behind ALL the Rings of Power was to hold back Time. The >Elves weren't aiming for just enclaves, but for as much of Middle-earth as >they could influence. And there is evidence to indicate that influence >extended well beyond Rivendell and Lorien. If this is going to be relevant, we'll need some evidence that their influence extended all the way to Mirkwood, so that Legolas wouldn't notice anything different in Lorien. >>But Legolas was used to perceiving the world the way an Elf sees a >>mortal world: it's all decaying and crumbling and falling apart. He >>should have perceived Lorien as a particularly Elvish place. > >Why? He was an Elf and his people practiced "Elvish magic". He wasn't in >Lorien long enough to notice things weren't changing very fast, but there were >certainly all sorts of indication of great change which had occurred. The >visit to Cerin Amroth is one of those indications, and the discussions with >Galadriel and Celeborn were also indications. What are the signs that should >scream out to an Elf of Mirkwood that a land is more "Elvish" than his own? The fact that nothing decayed, and therefore that instead of whining and sulking about decay all the time the Elves of Lorien actually enjoyed living there. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 216-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:18:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944162166 198.172.26.10 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:16:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 19:16:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!216-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:52:51 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >In article <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >>(And Michael, if you're reading this, please don't parrot your >>half-sentence in which Tolkien Said The Rings Hold Back Time(tm). The >>effects of the Rings clearly show that what they actually hold back is >>entropy, not time.) > >Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. Is there someone standing there with a gun to your head forcing you to post? We all know what you have to say. I acknowledged your position already. You don't have to repeat it. >He didn't speak about entropy. You >have some work ahead of you if you want to make that connection work any >better than the sentience connection. Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. He also said the Rings hold back change and decay. Change and decay are the means by which entropy increases. If they hold back change and decay, they're holding back the increase of entropy. What, are you saying Tolkien was wrong when he described the effects of the Rings? I'm sure he'd disagree with you if he were here. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 50 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:57:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944171831 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:57:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 15:57:11 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail [Concerning my claim that Michael was making an assumption in saying that Tolkien summarized the effects of the Rings as "holding back Time"] Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > If you're going to tell me I'm making an assumption, you could at > least do me the courtesy of explaining how I'm making an assumption. My apologies. I thought that my comments were clear on that point, but I'll happily try to clarify what I meant. When Tolkien said that the Rings "held back Time", it was by far the shortest discussion of the topic that you cited. It seems to me that he could have written this for two reasons (or at least, I can think of two different reasons that _I_ might have written such a statement in his place): 1) The Rings really did slow time (watches, calendars, and the like), so this is the briefest summary of their effects. 2) The Rings held back many effects associated with the passage of time, such as change and decay, but did not slow time itself. The statement that the Rings "held back Time" would be technically incorrect, but would nevertheless indicate many of their _true_ effects without the need for a long, detailed explanation. You have, quite reasonably, assumed that the first of these was Tolkien's actual reason for writing what he did. It is the simpler explanation, and is therefore the more natural choice. However, this choice _is_ an assumption. Techinically, of course, we are making even more assumptions than this: we are assuming that Tolkien was not deliberately lying when he wrote this, that he was not in the middle of reconsidering how the Rings worked at the time, that he didn't just accidentally drop a book on his typewriter and miraculously produce what looked like English words, and so forth. _Any_ reading of the passage involves assumptions; it is up to us to determine which assumptions are justified and which are not. In this case, I believe that the other quotes provide sufficiently strong evidence for the "truth" behind what I've called explanation (2) above that the assumption that (1) reflects Tolkien's true reason for writing what he did _must_ be questioned. Because Tolkien's longer explanations of the Rings' effects _never_ explicitly speak of time itself being held back, but only of its effects being retarded, I tend to believe that explanation (2) is more likely to be correct. Is that clearer? Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <826v1a$1eg_042@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:23:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.178 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944176803 207.224.148.178 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:20:03 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:20:03 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >When Tolkien said that the Rings "held back Time", it was by far the >shortest discussion of the topic that you cited. It seems to me that >he could have written this for two reasons (or at least, I can think >of two different reasons that _I_ might have written such a statement >in his place): > >1) The Rings really did slow time (watches, calendars, and the like), > so this is the briefest summary of their effects. > >2) The Rings held back many effects associated with the passage of > time, such as change and decay, but did not slow time itself. > The statement that the Rings "held back Time" would be technically > incorrect, but would nevertheless indicate many of their _true_ > effects without the need for a long, detailed explanation. > >You have, quite reasonably, assumed that the first of these was >Tolkien's actual reason for writing what he did. It is the simpler >explanation, and is therefore the more natural choice. However, this >choice _is_ an assumption. You're wrong. As I've often pointed out in the past, I would much rather have people ASK me what the hell I mean rather than try and explain it to me and post a lot of nonsense. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 00:10:40 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-425.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:57:11 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: >1) The Rings really did slow time (watches, calendars, and the like), > so this is the briefest summary of their effects. > >2) The Rings held back many effects associated with the passage of > time, such as change and decay, but did not slow time itself. > The statement that the Rings "held back Time" would be technically > incorrect, but would nevertheless indicate many of their _true_ > effects without the need for a long, detailed explanation. > >You have, quite reasonably, assumed that the first of these was >Tolkien's actual reason for writing what he did. Did he? Michael wrote in his very first response to the thread: >The Elves of Eregion created the Rings >of Power to hold back or slow the effects of Time, to prevent their fading and >delay their inevitable departure over Sea. I'm a little confused about exactly what is under debate here. Everyone seems to agree that the Rings of Power held back the effects of time. -Chris ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 04:29:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.71 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944195168 209.181.118.71 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:26:08 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:26:08 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!nntprelay.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: >I'm a little confused about exactly what is under debate here. >Everyone seems to agree that the Rings of Power held back the effects >of time. Generally speaking, if Michael Martinez says X in the Tolkien news groups and actually backs it up with citations from Tolkien, people feel it incumbent upon themselves to wrangle with trivialities until they can (hopefully, though rarely) win some sort of concession from Michael. In the event that the concession occurs, people whoop and hollar and make a big fuss and then immediately forget that victory (it's in the past, after all) and begin the process all over again as if it had never happened before. This is called, appropriately enough, the Michael Zone paradox: that you cannot ever win an argument with Michael Martinez no matter how many times you "win" the argument, and must therefore repeat the process eternally until you win. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <826v1a$1eg_042@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 24 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 04:34:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944195689 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:34:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:34:49 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez): > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: [snip my "summary vs. shorthand" list of two posibilities] > >You have, quite reasonably, assumed that the first of these was > >Tolkien's actual reason for writing what he did. > You're wrong. > > As I've often pointed out in the past, I would much rather have > people ASK me what the hell I mean rather than try and explain it to > me and post a lot of nonsense. My apologies once again. I thought that I _did_ understand your statement, but assumed (correctly) that you would let me know if I misunderstood (that's why I restated my understanding of your argument, after all). Could you point me to the article in which you justified your claim that Tolkien's "hold back Time" statement was a summary rather than a shorthand? (I must have missed it somehow.) Better yet, if it doesn't take too long, could you just repeat the argument in a reply here? Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 69 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 04:53:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 944196824 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:53:44 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:53:44 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern): > (Steuard Jensen) posted the following: [replying to Michael] > >1) The Rings really did slow time (watches, calendars, and the like), > > so this is the briefest summary of their effects. ... > >You have, quite reasonably, assumed that the first of these was > >Tolkien's actual reason for writing what he did. > Did he? Michael wrote in his very first response to the thread: > >The Elves of Eregion created the Rings of Power to hold back or > >slow the effects of Time, to prevent their fading and delay their > >inevitable departure over Sea. Good point. I'd forgotten that, and it does sound a lot like the point that I've been advocating here. Perhaps we _are_ arguing over pure semantics (just as many of us were in the Balrog threads). However, it was one of Michael's later posts that got me involved in the thread: ---------------- Begin included post ---------------------- Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Message-ID: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:35:43 GMT In article <19991130111333.14288.00000051@ngol04.aol.com>, pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (Paul) wrote: >I'd have to go with the last view here. It is not time itself that slows, but >the perception Tolkien STATED that the Rings hold back Time. Hence, time ran differently in Lorien. Q.E.D. [snip .sig] ------------------ End included post ----------------------- I, at least, interpreted this to mean that Michael thought that watches would run at a different speed in Lorien, and that a different number of days would have passed for the Fellowship inside the forest than in the rest of the world outside it. Just in case I was wrong about that interpretation of his statement, I've tried to explain my understanding of his position in my replies, and he has yet to tell me that I misunderstood him on this point. Thus, I've assumed that here, at least, my understanding of his position is correct. This, then, is what I am arguing against. I believe that if you left one clock in the Dimrill Dale and took the other into Lorien for a month, and then brought them back together, they would still read the same time (and date). (Of course, it seems likely that if you waited a century instead of a month, the clock in the Dimrill Dale would have broken down, while the one in Lorien would still be working.) To use Michael's words, I do _not_ believe that "time ran differently in Lorien". I am not sure yet just what the difference _was_, but I believe that the proposed explanation in terms of retardation of entropy has merit; I may end up settling on a variation on that theme. > I'm a little confused about exactly what is under debate here. > Everyone seems to agree that the Rings of Power held back the > effects of time. Does my explanation above make the difference of opinion clear? (Or am I myself confused about Michael's position, and he just hasn't corrected my misunderstanding yet?) We all agree that the Rings held back _some_ effects of time, but just not on how many of them are held back. This does sound pretty obscure, huh? :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <827itn$1h0_010@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <826v1a$1eg_042@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 05:02:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.71 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944197167 209.181.118.71 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:59:27 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 22:59:27 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Could you point me to the article in which you justified your claim >that Tolkien's "hold back Time" statement was a summary rather than a >shorthand? (I must have missed it somehow.) Better yet, if it >doesn't take too long, could you just repeat the argument in a reply >here? The High Elves met in this book are Exiles, returned back over Sea to Middle-earth, after events which are the main matter of the SILMARILLION, part of one of the main kindreds of the ELDAR: the Noldor (Masters of Lore). Or rather a last remnant of these. For the SILMARILLION proper and the First Age ended with the destruction of the primeval Dark Lord (of whome Sauron was a mere lieutenant), and the rehabilitation of the Exiles, who returned again over Sea. Those who lingered were those who were enamoured of Middle-earth and yet desired the unchanging beauty of the Land of the Valar. Hence the making of the Rings; for the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of preservation, not of birth. Though unsullied, because they were not made by Sauron nor touched by him, they were nonetheless partly products of his instruction, and ultimately under the control of the One. Thus, as you will see, when the One goes, the last defenders of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of power to hold back time, and depart. (Letter 144) -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <3847D4B0.26DBF0B7@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:33:21 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944231879 24.128.99.214 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:37:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:37:59 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Chris Kern wrote: > I'm a little confused about exactly what is under debate here. > Everyone seems to agree that the Rings of Power held back the effects > of time. Yep, everyone agrees that the rings held back the effects of time. The difference is literal 'actual' time slowing vrs not. *The debate is: did Tolkien abandon an actual different rate of time in Lorien as the causal reason of the effects of time being arrested.* 4 out of 5 quotes supposedly given to support an actual rate of time slowing, in fact only talk about 'effects', and the 5th can be read either way! 'shorn of power to hold back time' simply does not _necessarily_ mean 'actual' time slowing. 'time SEEMS to stand still' in another quote, for instance, just one of several opportunities for Tolkien to state the obvious (if it were so) of actual time moving at a different rate. Disregard all 5 quotes then, if they are confusing the issue, _or_ consider them ALL with equal weight in a decision to see for yourself if Tolkien actually meant time physically slowed in Lorien. I've given this before, though some of it was dismissed as irrelevant. When Tolkien was wrangling with actual time moving at a different rate he seems to have abandoned the concept and gone with effects and perceptions. Why do I say this [I don't know! :)] He amends much of the draft wording from fairly readable as time actually moving differently -- to ambiguous perceptions and effect stuff ' (ala as in most letters) and writes across an abandoned draft (a draft purporting an actual rate of different time) 'Better to have NO time difference' -- agreeing with the new language changes and the final 'Tale of Years' [a 'time ceases' note appeared in drafts at some point iirc]-- The Tale of Years as published gives no reason to believe that time actually slowed. *If* the rate of time difference is 2 to 1 for instance (god I hate using math as argument in Tolkien) 1,000 years of exterior time passes while 500 years of time in Lorien. In 500 years an oak will look older than it does in Lorien* time is slowed, but are the effects? Increase the ratio as you will, but remember that you must multiply a number that seems consistent with Tolkien's published time frame. *My real point however* is that ratios were abandonded; for me anyway, this does not seem like the 'true' preservation power of Nenya -- it's simply more magical than that. I'm pretty winded on the subject so fire away who will -- my position is an opinion and was so from the start, and may I add is not so rooted in concrete as my defense of it in this forum would indicate, but am still fairly swayed at the moment to defend my original post that Tolkien abandoned the concept of an actual different rate of time in Lorien. -- Cian ###### Message-ID: <3847D649.94B68688@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> <3847D4B0.26DBF0B7@mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:40:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944232288 24.128.99.214 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:44:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 09:44:48 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Cian wrote: > Lorien. In 500 years an oak will look older than it does in Lorien* time is slowed, > but are the effects? Sorry, that should read -- *time is slowed, but are the effects slowed exactly as they seem to be in Lorien? ie, trees look 'ageless', seem ancient and newly concieved at once, fresh and young looking -- not 500 years old. ###### Message-ID: <38482F3D.9A7E0309@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com> <82904c$23g_026@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:59:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944255057 24.128.99.214 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:04:17 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:04:17 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: [snip] > Legolas, the powerful demi-god of Elven-kind, should have realized no decay > was occurring in the perhaps 2 weeks he experienced in Lorien. Perhaps 2 weeks in Lorien? I suck at math (not kidding) but a two week stay in Lorien to equal a Month exterior time is generally doubling time right? [14 Lorien days to 28 outside days (roughly) equaling Sam's moon problem] But, 1000 years passing in Middle-earth therefore yields a pretty whopping 500 years of time still actually passing in Lorien -- way too much time for change/decay to still occur in many respects -- if the ratio remains constant of course, but why shouldn't it? If Galadriel can alter time at will to suit the needs of whomever, then why slow it at all when Aragorn and Co. arrive -- they have wasted a month in outside Middle-earth for two weeks of rest in Lorien. I'd have given them the opposite. (but my Elven ring don't work > /) Does this make sense? If it does, then doesn't it point to the possible reason Tolkien may have abandoned this sort of stuff? *Slow time is still passing time*, thus change/decay still occurs. Preservation power is unexplainable 'timeless magic', Two Trees type light, sustaining but not consuming; and no need for JRRT to get technical. -- Cian ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82904c$23g_026@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 107 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:54:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944243459 207.224.147.147 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:50:59 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:50:59 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:50:33 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>In article <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark > Wells) wrote: >>>On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 08:50:24 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >>>Martinez) wrote: >>> >>>>>Elrond certainly didn't reveal all he knew about the Rings at the >>>>>Council. He said that he's not allowed to talk about them. In >>>>>particular, he didn't reveal that he had one of them. >>>> >>>>No, he said he wasn't permitted to speak of the Three -- to give their >>>>whereabouts or to explain how they were being used. But he did say they >>>>were not made for war and that they were not idle. >>> >>>Thank you for the extensive quote, Michael, but it's irrelevant. >> >>No, as usual, it's quite relevant. Your summarization of what Elrond said >>was incorrect, and I showed that by citing the text. >> >>Just because you're wrong about what the book says doesn't make the book >>irrelevant. > >Oh, I'm sorry. I said he's not allowed to talk about them. The book >says he's not permitted to speak of them. My mistake. Wrong. Elrond spoke at great length about the Rings of Power. He simply wasn't at liberty to discuss the current locations of and uses to which the Three were being put. >I'll remember not to post anything here unless it's a verbatim excerpt >from Tolkien. That would help keep discussions focused on Tolkien and not on, say, the generic size of wheels. >>>No, but Legolas should have had some idea that Lorien was a more >>>'Elvish' land than, let's say, Mirkwood.... >> >>Why? He apparently had never been there before. What should he have >>noticed was so different from Mirkwood while wandering around playing >>tourist? Well, let's see: there were mallorns, Eldarin lamps, people >>living in a tree city (his own folk apparently either lived in >>Thranduil's halls or in houses on the ground), grey Elven cloaks, etc., >>etc. Somewhere in all that Legolas is supposed to stop and go, "Hm. >>This land seems more Elvish than my own -- there must be a Ring of >>Power at work here!"? Why? > >No. As I said, > >>>He might not have known that there was a Ring involved, of course, but >>>he should have realized that *something* was altering time. > >He should have noticed that there was something holding back time, >because that's the only way a land as Elvish as Lorien could exist in >Middle-earth. Why? How? He was inside Lorien and he, like the other seven non-Sams in the party, didn't seem particularly concerned with the matter until Sam started whining about the loss of days. >>The whole point behind ALL the Rings of Power was to hold back Time. The >>Elves weren't aiming for just enclaves, but for as much of Middle-earth as >>they could influence. And there is evidence to indicate that influence >>extended well beyond Rivendell and Lorien. > >If this is going to be relevant, we'll need some evidence that their >influence extended all the way to Mirkwood, so that Legolas wouldn't >notice anything different in Lorien. Rather, we'll need some evidence that Legolas had the ability to detect Rings of Power at work. So far as I know, even Sauron couldn't do that, since he couldn't locate the One Ring or the Three. If Legolas was THAT powerful, why didn't Elrond just manipulate the council so Legolas would volunteer to go take out the upstart Maia in Mordor? >>>But Legolas was used to perceiving the world the way an Elf sees a >>>mortal world: it's all decaying and crumbling and falling apart. He >>>should have perceived Lorien as a particularly Elvish place. >> >>Why? He was an Elf and his people practiced "Elvish magic". He wasn't >>in Lorien long enough to notice things weren't changing very fast, but >>there were certainly all sorts of indication of great change which had >>occurred. The visit to Cerin Amroth is one of those indications, and >>the discussions with Galadriel and Celeborn were also indications. What >>are the signs that should scream out to an Elf of Mirkwood that a land >>is more "Elvish" than his own? > >The fact that nothing decayed, and therefore that instead of whining >and sulking about decay all the time the Elves of Lorien actually >enjoyed living there. Hm. For a land where nothing decayed, Lorien certainly experienced an awful lot of seasons where the Mallorn leaves fell. And yet you insist that Legolas, the powerful demi-god of Elven-kind, should have realized no decay was occurring in the perhaps 2 weeks he experienced in Lorien. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:55:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.147 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944243548 207.224.147.147 (Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:52:28 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:52:28 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:52:51 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>In article <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark > Wells) wrote: >>>(And Michael, if you're reading this, please don't parrot your >>>half-sentence in which Tolkien Said The Rings Hold Back Time(tm). The >>>effects of the Rings clearly show that what they actually hold back is >>>entropy, not time.) >> >>Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. > >Is there someone standing there with a gun to your head forcing you to >post? Yes. His name is Guido, and he works for the Russian Mafia (he was laid off by the Chicago mob). >>He didn't speak about entropy. You >>have some work ahead of you if you want to make that connection work any >>better than the sentience connection. > >Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. He also said the Rings hold >back change and decay. No, he said they slowed or prevented change and decay. >What, are you saying Tolkien was wrong when he described the effects >of the Rings? I'm sure he'd disagree with you if he were here. So, you're resulting to the straw man trick. Guido says I have to point that out. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82aem0$3mk_020@news.uswest.net> References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com> <82904c$23g_026@news.uswest.net> <38482F3D.9A7E0309@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 29 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 07:08:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944291124 207.224.149.166 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:05:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:05:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <38482F3D.9A7E0309@mediaone.net>, Cian wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >[snip] > >> Legolas, the powerful demi-god of Elven-kind, should have realized no decay >> was occurring in the perhaps 2 weeks he experienced in Lorien. > >Perhaps 2 weeks in Lorien? I suck at math (not kidding) but a two week stay >in Lorien to equal a Month exterior time is generally doubling time right? >[14 Lorien days to 28 outside days (roughly) equaling Sam's moon problem] You're getting in over your head. Sam guessed maybe they experienced 1 week at most. I was allowing an extra week for those of you who might feel the 1 week was somehow not supported by the text (as usual, I'm sure there are people who would prefer to disregard what Sam says about recalling only 3 nights and maybe several more in favor of their unfounded assumptions). But the above citation is clearly a bit of sarcasm. Now, why would I get sarcastic, unless I was responding to someone who had left behind all pretense of serious discussion? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 142-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 08:24:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 944295723 198.172.26.10 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 08:22:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 08:22:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!damar.pc-intouch.com!142-dyn.dialup.pc-intouch.com On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:55:50 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >>Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. He also said the Rings hold >>back change and decay. > >No, he said they slowed or prevented change and decay. You're going to argue about the difference between "hold back" and "slow or prevent"? That's pathetic. This is typical of your tactics. You snipe at anyone who deviates from the exact wording of the text until they're afraid to summarize it, reason inductively or even deductively from it, or handle it at all. At that point you Win By Default because you're the one citing long irrelevant passages from the text after everyone else refuses to touch it. I'm tired of defending myself against you. Go ahead. Criticize me all you want. I've got better uses for my time than answering you. ###### Message-ID: <384970CE.82A99598@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com> <82904c$23g_026@news.uswest.net> <38482F3D.9A7E0309@mediaone.net> <82aem0$3mk_020@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:51:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944337381 24.128.99.214 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:56:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:56:21 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > >> Legolas, the powerful demi-god of Elven-kind, should have realized no decay > >> was occurring in the perhaps 2 weeks he experienced in Lorien. > >Perhaps 2 weeks in Lorien? I suck at math (not kidding) but a two week stay > >in Lorien to equal a Month exterior time is generally doubling time right? > >[14 Lorien days to 28 outside days (roughly) equaling Sam's moon problem] > > You're getting in over your head. Sam guessed maybe they experienced 1 week at > most. I was allowing an extra week for those of you who might feel the 1 week was > somehow not supported by the text (as usual, I'm sure there are > people who would prefer to disregard what Sam says about recalling only 3 > nights and maybe several more in favor of their unfounded assumptions). But my main comment was only illustrated by the (erggh) math: Slower time is still passing time -- thus change/decay. Time 'ceasing' was abandoned by Tolkien as well. [in which case Galadriel could have helped the travelers rest, grieve for Gandalf, then continue the quest on the same outside calendar day as they entered, or something] And don't forget Sam's comment in Lorien: Something about seeing 'the Lord or Lady in >all these days<.' Or something close -- no book at hand at the moment. > But the above citation is clearly a bit of sarcasm. Now, why would I get > sarcastic, unless I was responding to someone who had left behind all pretense > of serious discussion? Fair enough, but it wasn't a response to me, I just had to butt in at 'two weeks' though :) -- Cian ###### Message-ID: <384972F3.81C056A4@mediaone.net> From: Cian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-MOENE (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension References: <3836ebae@news.jakinternet.co.uk> <38429F5D.7B1E4AC2@mediaone.net> <81uegi$23k_020@news.uswest.net> <3843E3B4.3B02CA07@mediaone.net> <8211rk$1ac_030@news.uswest.net> <3844cdd6.99129503@news.pc-intouch.com> <822ngg$2i0_044@news.uswest.net> <38462a36.188326554@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fd9$1pg_028@news.uswest.net> <3846c0ce.226884941@news.pc-intouch.com> <82904c$23g_026@news.uswest.net> <38482F3D.9A7E0309@mediaone.net> <82aem0$3mk_020@news.uswest.net> <384970CE.82A99598@mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:00:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.99.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net 944337931 24.128.99.214 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:05:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:05:31 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!24.128.1.101!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.60.9!ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail > Fair enough, but it wasn't a response to me, I just had to butt in at 'two weeks' > though -- Cian Just to be clear, 'I meant Fair enough that you say the comment was sarcastic; not that I agree that Mark Wells had left behind 'all pretense of serious discussion'. I think it was a reply to Mark anyway. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82bkc9$168_028@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <822ka7$2i0_016@news.uswest.net> <823jd5$1a8_034@news.uswest.net> <38462cf2.189027371@news.pc-intouch.com> <825fhj$1pg_030@news.uswest.net> <3846c4fb.227954121@news.pc-intouch.com> <829076$23g_028@news.uswest.net> <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 17:52:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.230 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944329723 207.224.149.230 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:48:43 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 11:48:43 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <3848cc8c.11829354@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:55:50 GMT, Michael@xenite.org (Michael >Martinez) wrote: > >>>Tolkien said the Rings hold back time. He also said the Rings hold >>>back change and decay. >> >>No, he said they slowed or prevented change and decay. > >You're going to argue about the difference between "hold back" and >"slow or prevent"? That's pathetic. Your attempts at rousing me to respond to straw man arguments are pathetic. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:53:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <82emsa$5n5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.174.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Dec 05 21:53:15 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x31.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.174.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote: > >I'm a little confused about exactly what is under debate here. > >Everyone seems to agree that the Rings of Power held back the effects > >of time. > > Generally speaking, if Michael Martinez says X in the Tolkien news groups > and actually backs it up with citations from Tolkien, people feel it incumbent > upon themselves to wrangle with trivialities until they can (hopefully, though > rarely) win some sort of concession from Michael. > > In the event that the concession occurs, people whoop and hollar and make a > big fuss and then immediately forget that victory (it's in the past, after > all) and begin the process all over again as if it had never happened before. > > This is called, appropriately enough, the Michael Zone paradox: that you > cannot ever win an argument with Michael Martinez no matter how many times you > "win" the argument, and must therefore repeat the process eternally until you > win. I don't recall that Chris Kern mentioned Michael Martinez in his post. I think he was interested in discussing Tolkien, and asking what the debate was. Why do you want to bring the subject back to Michael Martinez? -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:28:26 -0000 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 47 Message-ID: <82epcm$jtl$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net> <82emsa$5n5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-79.sustiva.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 944433366 20405 62.136.87.79 (5 Dec 1999 22:36:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Dec 1999 22:36:06 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail jbwhelan@my-deja.com wrote in message <82emsa$5n5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >In article <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net>, > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >> In article <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com>, kern@grinnell.edu >(Chris Kern) wrote: >> >I'm a little confused about exactly what is under debate here. >> >Everyone seems to agree that the Rings of Power held back the effects >> >of time. >> >> Generally speaking, if Michael Martinez says X in the Tolkien news >groups >> and actually backs it up with citations from Tolkien, people feel it >incumbent >> upon themselves to wrangle with trivialities until they can >(hopefully, though >> rarely) win some sort of concession from Michael. >> >> In the event that the concession occurs, people whoop and hollar and >make a >> big fuss and then immediately forget that victory (it's in the past, >after >> all) and begin the process all over again as if it had never happened >before. >> >> This is called, appropriately enough, the Michael Zone paradox: that >you >> cannot ever win an argument with Michael Martinez no matter how many >times you >> "win" the argument, and must therefore repeat the process eternally >until you >> win. > >I don't recall that Chris Kern mentioned Michael Martinez in his post. >I think he was interested in discussing Tolkien, and asking what the >debate was. Why do you want to bring the subject back to Michael >Martinez? > I thought it was a pretty accurate answer to why people were continually arguing when they seem to agree. Al ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <82evnt$1as_014@news.uswest.net> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net> <82emsa$5n5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 00:24:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.205 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 944439661 209.181.118.205 (Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:21:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:21:01 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!xenite1 In article <82emsa$5n5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, jbwhelan@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net>, > Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >> This is called, appropriately enough, the Michael Zone paradox: that >> you cannot ever win an argument with Michael Martinez no matter how >> many times you "win" the argument, and must therefore repeat the >> process eternally until you win. > >I don't recall that Chris Kern mentioned Michael Martinez in his post. That's okay. You're proving the paradox exists anyway. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lorien - a different dimension Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 00:52:14 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <82hlnt$96u$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8211tf$1ac_032@news.uswest.net> <824342$1bc_016@news.uswest.net> <825er8$1pg_024@news.uswest.net> <38470a14.85655678@enews.newsguy.com> <827gv8$1h0_002@news.uswest.net> <82emsa$5n5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <82epcm$jtl$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.161.32 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Dec 07 00:52:14 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x33.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.161.32 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <82epcm$jtl$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alan Graham" wrote: > I thought it was a pretty accurate answer to why people were continually > arguing when they seem to agree. Perhaps. But either way, not really my point. -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.