From: jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Nov 1999 23:08:26 GMT References: <3833a07a.4211404@news.bigpond.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >From: deepweb@bigfoot.com (abadonn) >How can this be 'anachronistic'. This is not Earth but a different >place. I can't see any problems if Bilbo invited the Dwarves and G >around for some Cappacino and some Bagels. > >IF this was Europe circa 1300 or sumfing I would agree...otherwise its >ok. > >Oh...you forgot Tobacco (Pipeweed)..which would also be anachronistic >*IF* this was our Earth in early mediaevel times... > >abadonn > I keep reading this viewpoint that this is not our earth. Clearly there is more logic in this viewpoint, however I cannot shake my mindset that this is our Earth, in prehistoric times, perhaps before even the dinosaurs. For this mindset of mine to be truth suggests that there almost must be a willful creationist God, which is not really the mainframe of my personal beliefs. However when it comes right down to it, I don't believe in Middle Earth either! I just have a hard time trying to picture all of these things happening on another planet, in another world, and this to me seems more comical. Mike D. "I said find yourself first and then your tool. Find yourself first, don't you be no fool." - J. Hendrix "Message to the Universe" ###### From: echoota@aol.com (Neil Carr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 03:32:52 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3834c3fd.55965241@news.supernews.com> References: <3833a07a.4211404@news.bigpond.com> <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail In the Letters Tolkien details somewhere that ME is intended to be of our world. He speculates that we are currently in the sixth or seventh age, where LotR ends with the begining of the 4th. Also, the Lost Road, his time travel novel was supposed to be time travel between the age of Numenor, all the way up to the 20th century, following a father/son relationship that kind of reincarnates through the ages. -- Neil Carr MetroGamers - Dallas/Fort Worth http://www.earthsea.com/metrogamers/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <812gqk$2t0_012@news.uswest.net> References: <3833a07a.4211404@news.bigpond.com> <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 03:40:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.190 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 942982644 207.224.149.190 (Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:37:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:37:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!agate.berkeley.edu!agate!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com>, jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) wrote: >>From: deepweb@bigfoot.com (abadonn) >>How can this be 'anachronistic'. This is not Earth but a different >>place. I can't see any problems if Bilbo invited the Dwarves and G >>around for some Cappacino and some Bagels. >> >>IF this was Europe circa 1300 or sumfing I would agree...otherwise its >>ok. >> >>Oh...you forgot Tobacco (Pipeweed)..which would also be anachronistic >>*IF* this was our Earth in early mediaevel times... >> >>abadonn >> > > >I keep reading this viewpoint that this is not our earth. Clearly there is >more logic in this viewpoint, however I cannot shake my mindset that this is >our Earth, in prehistoric times, perhaps before even the dinosaurs. The world fo THE LORD OF THE RINGS (if that is what you're discussing) is OUR Earth in an imaginary prehistoric time (about 6,000 years ago), according to J.R.R. Tolkien. He said on more than one occasion that Middle-earth was our world, "round and inescapable", "the habitable lands of Men". The story is by no means set in early Medieval times. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 22:38:12 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3833a07a.4211404@news.bigpond.com> <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b1.54 X-Server-Date: 20 Nov 1999 03:34:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I keep reading this viewpoint that this is not our earth. Clearly there is >more logic in this viewpoint, however I cannot shake my mindset that this is >our Earth, in prehistoric times, perhaps before even the dinosaurs. In one of the letters (can't recall which one, but I read it earlier today while looking for a cite on the fate of the two blue wizards), Tolkien says that ME is kinda-sorta our world about 6000 years ago, but only kinda-sorta because if he'd really wanted to make it match it would have been quite a job. He said the Ages after the Third were shorter, so we're around the Sixth or Seventh Age; but he didn't mention what Age-ending events he had in mind. I suppose, being a Catholic, he'd consider that one started 1966 years ago in 33 CE. Anyone care to speculate on the others? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <814lm5$26o_024@news.uswest.net> References: <3833a07a.4211404@news.bigpond.com> <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com> <812gqk$2t0_012@news.uswest.net> <814dqt$2ia2$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 45 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:15:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.209 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 943053155 207.224.147.209 (Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:12:35 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:12:35 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article <814dqt$2ia2$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru>, "OLA Dration" wrote: >JRRT NEVER write about YEARS. He only points that we are now probably on the >7th age but Tolkiens ages are not similar to our thousands of years (f.e. >the third ages are about 4000 years long) so we know noth about the real >time gap between our history and ME. I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh. From the footnote to Letter 211, page 283, THE LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN, First Edition. The First Age of the Sun lasted 590 years, according to the Tale of Years published in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. The Second Age of the Sun lasted 3442 years, according to the "Tale of Years", Appendix B, in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The Third Age of the Sun lasted 3021 years, according to the "Tale of Years", Appendix B, in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The Fourth Age of the Sun probably lasted about 2600 years. This is an inference based on the comment that the realm of Eldarion would last 100 generations of Men. If the events of THE LORD OF THE RINGS are imagined to have occurred about 6040 years ago, and if the Fourth Age lasted about 2600 years, then the Fifth Age probably began about 3400 years (circa 1400 BCE) -- roughly when the Israelites are believed to have left Egypt, or about the time the Lusatian culture arose in northeastern Europe, or around the beginning of the Greek heroic age. The Fifth Age probably ended around 500 CE -- about the time when the western Roman Empire collapsed and shifted into the control of the Barbarians. If the Sixth Age indeed has ended, it must have ended with World War II. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:32:37 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 24 Message-ID: <814dqt$2ia2$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <3833a07a.4211404@news.bigpond.com> <19991118180826.27627.00000852@ng-fv1.aol.com> <812gqk$2t0_012@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial56021.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 943045278 84290 195.34.56.21 (19 Nov 1999 21:01:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 1999 21:01:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Michael Martinez eteecie <812gqk$2t0_012@news.uswest.net>sse >>I keep reading this viewpoint that this is not our earth. Clearly there is >>more logic in this viewpoint, however I cannot shake my mindset that this is >>our Earth, in prehistoric times, perhaps before even the dinosaurs. > >The world fo THE LORD OF THE RINGS (if that is what you're discussing) is OUR >Earth in an imaginary prehistoric time (about 6,000 years ago), according to >J.R.R. Tolkien. He said on more than one occasion that Middle-earth was our >world, "round and inescapable", "the habitable lands of Men". JRRT NEVER write about YEARS. He only points that we are now probably on the 7th age but Tolkiens ages are not similar to our thousands of years (f.e. the third ages are about 4000 years long) so we know noth about the real time gap between our history and ME. Namaarie Envinywen Heerince ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:58:24 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <19991120141254.25281.00000280@ng-fb1.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail On 20 Nov 1999 19:12:54 GMT, jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) wrote: >From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) >>In one of the letters (can't recall which one, but I read it earlier >>today while looking for a cite on the fate of the two blue wizards), > >Is it possible these two blue wizards are still around? > Yeah. They are now known as 'David Copperfield' and 'James Randi'. May the Farce Be With You the softrat ----- mummering sadly in the drowning C++'s of muddy earth ###### From: jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Nov 1999 19:00:49 GMT References: <814lm5$26o_024@news.uswest.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991120140049.25281.00000277@ng-fb1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: >If the Sixth Age indeed has ended, I hope so, but I doubt it. Mike D. "I said find yourself first and then your tool. Find yourself first, don't you be no fool." - J. Hendrix "Message to the Universe" ###### From: jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Nov 1999 19:12:54 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991120141254.25281.00000280@ng-fb1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) >In one of the letters (can't recall which one, but I read it earlier >today while looking for a cite on the fate of the two blue wizards), Is it possible these two blue wizards are still around? >Tolkien says that ME is kinda-sorta our world about 6000 years ago, but >only kinda-sorta because if he'd really wanted to make it match it would >have been quite a job. That's a long time anyway. It could be the third age in the future for that matter, and this is the third age before it. But it is Earth. >He said the Ages after the Third were shorter, so we're around the Sixth >or Seventh Age; but he didn't mention what Age-ending events he had in >mind. I suppose, being a Catholic, he'd consider that one started 1966 >years ago in 33 CE. Anyone care to speculate on the others? I'll accept that as the beginning of a new age even though I'm Jewish. If that is the Sixth Age, then we are still in it. I don't think society in itself has changed all that much in 2,000 years, just technology has improved. If that was the changing of one age, then it would follow that the birth of the Fifth Age was some time around the time of Solomon. The Fourth Age then must have been a very dark age indeed. I do not believe a new age has started. For this things have to be turned on their sides, and while I believe this could happen soon, it hasn't yet. The Space Age is just in its infancy, and computers are really at this time just extensions of the Industrial Revolution. I'm quite a history student eh?? Before one of these takes off, or something else, there could plausibly be any number of apocalypses. A real epocalypse, or mass interplanetary travel (whichever comes first) could signify to me a Seventh Age. It is for this reason that I half hope and half hope against a Seventh Age. Mike D. "I said find yourself first and then your tool. Find yourself first, don't you be no fool." - J. Hendrix "Message to the Universe" ###### From: jiminut@aol.com (Jiminut) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Middle Earth or Our Earth? (Re: Tea and Coffee) NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 20 Nov 1999 19:25:17 GMT References: <19991120141254.25281.00000280@ng-fb1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991120142517.25281.00000284@ng-fb1.aol.com> Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I wrote... >If that was the changing of one age, then it would follow that the birth of the >Fifth Age was some time around the time of Solomon. The Fourth Age then must >have been a very dark age indeed. To modify this, I mean dark, but not long. Please correct me if I'm way off but I believe the Hebrew calendar dates somewhere around 2,500 BC, which leaves just about roughly 1,500 years after the Third Age, if it was indeed 6,000 years ago. One thing is clear though... the actual geography was different. Between the Fourth and Fifth, there must have indeed been at least a great flood, not to mention earthquakes and the such, creating new lands. Middle Earth on the maps, the East and West, North and South, these didn't change, but we don't know where they were, do we? Presumably somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere I think. Mike D. "I said find yourself first and then your tool. Find yourself first, don't you be no fool." - J. Hendrix "Message to the Universe"