From: omaha8642@aol.com (Omaha8642) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Great Glorfindel Debate Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Nov 1999 07:00:54 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991115020054.07988.00001263@ng-da1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Greetings ! I'd like to weigh in on the Glorfindel debate. (Yes.. to recap, it's whether Glorfindel was born in Gondolin, died fighting a Balrog, and was reincarnated into the FotR Glorfindel.. or not.) I'd like to quote from FotR (Houghton/Mifflin paperback), pg 235 "Many Meetings". Gandalf speaking to Frodo : "They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power." Would anyone care to weigh in on whether this means that Glorfindel (who has power against the Ringwraiths) got that power from living in the Blessed Realm ? If he did, I'd wager that means that he's the Silm Glorfindel, and not one that's more recent. *bows to the crowd* Zach "Joy is in the ears that hear, not the tongue that speaks" -Stephen R. Donaldson ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 04:19:06 -0500 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <382FD004.B17B06BE@erols.com> References: <19991115020054.07988.00001263@ng-da1.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oprllp0LrGgt5hrOzSh7peyeUDL2CPOHhepDaG+q9+M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 1999 09:23:37 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Omaha8642 wrote: > whether Glorfindel was born in Gondolin, died fighting a Balrog, and was > reincarnated into the FotR Glorfindel.. or not.) I'd like to quote from FotR > (Houghton/Mifflin paperback), pg 235 "Many Meetings". > Gandalf speaking to Frodo : "They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who > have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both > the Seen and Unseen they have great power." > Would anyone care to weigh in on whether this means that Glorfindel (who > has power against the Ringwraiths) got that power from living in the Blessed > Realm ? > If he did, I'd wager that means that he's the Silm Glorfindel, and not one > that's more recent. That is my position also (and therefore the correct one). ;-) IIRC, there is also some supporting evidence in Unfinished Tales. I read somewhere that JRRT reused the name by mistake, and then fixed it by making both Glorfindels the same person. I like that solution, because it adds gravity (as if any were needed) to the Flight to the Ford episode. It's also my understanding that Glorfindel was one hot babe - wait - sorry, for some reason I keep getting him confused with Arwen. Why do I keep doing that? :-0 -- -- FotW "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:02:45 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 24 Message-ID: <80plcr$25cm$1@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <19991115020054.07988.00001263@ng-da1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial54063.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 942692575 71062 195.34.54.63 (15 Nov 1999 19:02:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 1999 19:02:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.tli.de!demos!news.rt.ru!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Aiya! Omaha8642 eteecie tengwaresse 19991115020054.07988.00001263@ng-da1.aol.com> - > I'd like to weigh in on the Glorfindel debate. (Yes.. to recap, it's >whether Glorfindel was born in Gondolin, died fighting a Balrog, and was >reincarnated into the FotR Glorfindel.. or not.) I'd like to quote from FotR >(Houghton/Mifflin paperback), pg 235 "Many Meetings". >Gandalf speaking to Frodo : "They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who >have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both >the Seen and Unseen they have great power." AFAIR in the last works JRRT says that Gondolins Glorfindel was the same person as the LoTRs Namaarie Envinywen Heerince ----And finally died... in the agony... of... loneliness..... ... .. . ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:13:47 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 23 Message-ID: <80pld2$25cm$3@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <0NVX3.2050$Jr5.14088@dummy.bahnhof.se> <19991115114310.07980.00001180@ng-da1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial54063.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 942692581 71062 195.34.54.63 (15 Nov 1999 19:03:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Nov 1999 19:03:01 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Omaha8642 eteecie tngwaresse <19991115114310.07980.00001180@ng-da1.aol.com> ... >> That he lived in the Blessed Realm wouldn't say either >>yes or no to if he was the original Glorfindel since they could >>go back and forth at will if need be. > I was always under the impression that leaving ME was a fairly recent >(post-Earendil) development. Before, if you were an elf in ME, you were stuck >due to the Doom of the Valar. And the old Glorfindel is definitely before >Earendil's time. Yes. But JRRT says that G. returned on the ship whith Gandalf and Cirdan meet then in Grey Heavens when they come to ME. Namaarie Envinywen Heerince ---Ar: yallumie aquaaliere : qualmesse : eresse :: ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991115020054.07988.00001263@ng-da1.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <0NVX3.2050$Jr5.14088@dummy.bahnhof.se> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:37:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.48 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 942680252 195.178.166.48 (Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:37:32 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:37:32 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Omaha8642 wrote: > Would anyone care to weigh in on whether this means that Glorfindel (who > has power against the Ringwraiths) got that power from living in the > Blessed Realm ? If he did, I'd wager that means that he's the Silm > Glorfindel, and not one that's more recent. That's what I thought as well, or that his powers over the Wraiths came from being so damn old and thus from a time when the elves power was greater. A more recently born elf wouldn't have as much power. That he lived in the Blessed Realm wouldn't say either yes or no to if he was the original Glorfindel since they could go back and forth at will if need be. /Jonas ###### From: omaha8642@aol.com (Omaha8642) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Nov 1999 16:43:10 GMT References: <0NVX3.2050$Jr5.14088@dummy.bahnhof.se> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991115114310.07980.00001180@ng-da1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail On Mon, 15 November 1999 10:37 AM EST, the lightning bolt of genius struck "Jonas Thorell" jonasth@bahnhof.se. > That he lived in the Blessed Realm wouldn't say either >yes or no to if he was the original Glorfindel since they could >go back and forth at will if need be. I was always under the impression that leaving ME was a fairly recent (post-Earendil) development. Before, if you were an elf in ME, you were stuck due to the Doom of the Valar. And the old Glorfindel is definitely before Earendil's time. Zach "Joy is in the ears that hear, not the tongue that speaks" -Stephen R. Donaldson ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate References: <19991115020054.07988.00001263@ng-da1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 25 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:48:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 942684537 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:48:57 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:48:57 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth omaha8642@aol.com (Omaha8642): > I'd like to weigh in on the Glorfindel debate. (Yes.. to recap, > it's whether Glorfindel was born in Gondolin, died fighting a > Balrog, and was reincarnated into the FotR Glorfindel.. or not.) Depending on which texts you consider "canonical" (and to what degree), there may not be a "Glorfindel debate" at all any more. Now that I look at it, the old LessFAQ doesn't have references to _The Peoples of Middle-Earth_, so perhaps an updated entry on this topic should be added to my FAQ. In short, there is an essay in the "Last Writings" section of _Peoples_ all about Glorfindel. In it, Tolkien considers the question and its implications at length, and does so entirely from the perspective of explaining how and why the two Glorfindels were the same. Unlike some of his later thoughts on the mythology, this essay does _not_ seem to require major upheavals of the existing tales, and thus I (and quite a few others, I think) consider it to be quite high on the "canonical" scale. So, the short answer is that if you accept this essay from _Peoples_ as at all canonical, then there _is_ only one Glorfindel. Yet another reason to be grateful to Christopher for publishing more of his father's essays... Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <0NVX3.2050$Jr5.14088@dummy.bahnhof.se> <19991115114310.07980.00001180@ng-da1.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:26:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.129 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 942697617 195.178.166.129 (Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:26:57 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:26:57 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Omaha8642 wrote: > > That he lived in the Blessed Realm wouldn't say either > >yes or no to if he was the original Glorfindel since they could > >go back and forth at will if need be. > I was always under the impression that leaving ME was a fairly recent > (post-Earendil) development. Both yes and no. They did leave ME to go to Aman before that but most stayed in Aman then. > Before, if you were an elf in ME, you were stuck > due to the Doom of the Valar. If you were a Noldor-elf, yes. I don't remember if Glorfindel was though. >And the old Glorfindel is definitely before > Earendil's time. Well, he could have after Earendil and before LoTR so to speak. Even before Earendil if he was of another "clan" than Noldor. /Jonas ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:34:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <80t46r$19i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <0NVX3.2050$Jr5.14088@dummy.bahnhof.se> <19991115114310.07980.00001180@ng-da1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.161.219 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 17 02:34:03 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x35.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.161.219 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: > > Before, if you were an elf in ME, you were stuck > > due to the Doom of the Valar. > > If you were a Noldor-elf, yes. I don't remember if Glorfindel was though. The reason the Noldor were the only ones who couldn't "return" was that they were the only ones who left after actually arriving there. Those who had never been there could not get there either. The enchantments that kept the Noldor out kept out everyone else as well, and my impression was that they were defended primarily as a defense against Melkor and his servants. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <0NVX3.2050$Jr5.14088@dummy.bahnhof.se> <19991115114310.07980.00001180@ng-da1.aol.com> <80t46r$19i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: The Great Glorfindel Debate Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:56:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.51 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 942850588 195.178.167.51 (Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:56:28 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:56:28 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail wrote >> If you were a Noldor-elf, yes. I don't remember if Glorfindel was >> though. > The reason the Noldor were the only ones who couldn't "return" was that > they were the only ones who left after actually arriving there. Okay, that's a point but I'm not certain it is valid...what did the Valar had in mind when they put a ban on Noldor when said ban effected every other Elf in ME as well? "Oh, sorry. You have to stay in ME. There are some noldor renegades somewhere in ME. I know you have never met anyone of them but that's just the way it is." >Those who had never been there could not get there either. The chance of those longing for the west would be smaller though so perhaps that never got into play. >The enchantments that kept the Noldor out kept out everyone else as well Lousy "enchantments" if they can't be more specific than that... /Jonas