From: Wener Rachel Helen Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Arkenstone Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:47:28 -0500 Organization: Bryn Mawr and Haverford College NetNews Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ada.brynmawr.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.haverford.edu!ada.brynmawr.edu!rwener Hello all, I'm a newish person to the wonders of Tolkien as well as to this newsgroup. I've been working my way through the Silmarillion and just finished the Hobbit. My question is as follows: The description of the Arkenstone that Bilbo finds in the Hobbit sounds a lot like a Silmaril to me. Is that ever proven/disproven anywhere? Thanks, Rachel ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Arkenstone Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <80l29f$32s_002@news.uswest.net> References: X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 01:12:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.84 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 942541789 209.181.118.84 (Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:09:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:09:49 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite1 In article , Wener Rachel Helen wrote: >Hello all, > I'm a newish person to the wonders of Tolkien as well as to this >newsgroup. I've been working my way through the Silmarillion and just >finished the Hobbit. My question is as follows: The description of the >Arkenstone that Bilbo finds in the Hobbit sounds a lot like a Silmaril to >me. Is that ever proven/disproven anywhere? The Arkenstone's history is provided in THE HOBBIT and it is not a Silmaril. The Dwarves found it when they established themselves at Erebor. The two lost Silmarils are traditionally said to be lost until the end of Time. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 75 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:03:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 942566603 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 14 Nov 1999 02:03:23 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 02:03:23 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Wener Rachel Helen : > The description of the Arkenstone that Bilbo finds in the Hobbit > sounds a lot like a Silmaril to me. Is that ever proven/disproven > anywhere? This is a rather intriguing question, and one that has been raised in the past. First of all, Michael's response is almost certainly the right answer: both Silmarils that remained in Middle-earth were lost until the end of the world. (Some have suggested that the Silmaril carried by Maedhros when he "cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire" was carried through the earth by magma until the rock cooled, leaving it crystalized in the middle of a lump of quartz, or something like that. I generally _don't_ buy that interpretation.) There _is_, however, some interesting textual history at work here. Unfortunately, I haven't studied it in detail myself, so I can provide few specifics and may get a few details wrong. Others can correct me as desired. At any rate... As we all know, when Tolkien began writing _The Hobbit_, he did not think of it as being truly a part of his mythology. He did, however, draw on elements of the mythology to make it feel more "real", more rooted in its own history. Many aspects of this inheritance are obvious (e.g. Gondolin and the "Goblin Wars", the whole background of Elves, Dwarves, and Men, and so on). Others seem to be present, however, that are quite surprising. Have you ever noticed that the map in _The Hobbit_ looks an awful lot like the _Silmarillion_ map in a mirror? Not identical, certainly, but the similarities are there. Some aspects are particularly interesting: Mirkwood seems to correspond to Doriath in location. Both have giant spiders associated with their northern regions (true, the spiders were _north_ of Doriath rather than inside it), and both are home to an Elvenking with a fondness for treasure (Thingol was very eager for riches in the early stages of the mythology). Even more interesting is the occurrence multiple times of "Dorwinion" in "The Lay of the Children of Hurin", of which Christopher says: The potent wine that Beleg carried and gave to the travellers from his flask (223 ff.) is notable--brought from "the burning south" and "by long ways" carried "to the lands of the North"--as is the name of the land from which it came: Dorwinion (230, 425). The only other places in my father's writings where this name occurs (so far as I know) are in _The Hobbit_... This certainly reinforces the notion of borrowed geography. All this is merely leading up to the great possibility of borrowing that relates to your question: in _The Shaping of Middle-earth_, we are shown a version of the "Annals of Valinor" that Tolkien wrote in Old English, in which he says "tha Silmarillas, thaet waeron Eorclanstanas" (forgive my transcription of Old English in standard ASCII here). The important point here is brought up by Christopher Tolkien in his notes on this text: The Silmarils are "Eorclanstanas".... There are several different forms of this Old English word: eorclan-, eorcnan-, earcnan-, and eorcan- from which is derived the 'Arkenstone' of the Lonely Mountain. It is particularly interesting to note that Tolkien probably wrote the above Old English dealing with the Silmarils in the early 1930s (just after the "Quenta", apparently, which Christopher dates to 1930 or so). On the other hand, according to _Letters_, a draft of _The Hobbit_ (not quite reaching the death of Smaug) was in existence by the winter of 1932 (Letter #9, intro. note). The degree to which the two concepts were linked in his mind at the time is entirely unclear. At any rate, that's the long answer to your question. :) While the Silmarils and the Arkenstone may well have had a common ancestral inspiration, by the time of LotR and the later mythology, they had apparently become quite distinct. There does not seem to be any _reasonable_ way to connect them directly. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:42:20 -0500 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <382ED858.757E3635@erols.com> References: Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: v4JHsMpfSkX/CDz4x9d1xUqG3JoaQdZfhP+RyEeUU6c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 1999 16:45:42 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote: > (Some have suggested that the Silmaril > carried by Maedhros when he "cast himself into a gaping chasm filled > with fire" was carried through the earth by magma until the rock > cooled, leaving it crystalized in the middle of a lump of quartz, or > something like that. I generally _don't_ buy that interpretation.) Wasn't the Earth flat at that point? -- -- FotW "'Gandalf!' I said at last . . . Did he say, 'Hullo, Pippin! This is a pleasant surprise!'? No, indeed! He said: 'Get up, you tom-fool of a Took!'" ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Arkenstone Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:32:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.180 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 942593551 195.178.166.180 (Sun, 14 Nov 1999 16:32:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 16:32:31 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!f.de.uu.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote: > until the end of the world. (Some have suggested that the Silmaril > carried by Maedhros when he "cast himself into a gaping chasm filled > with fire" was carried through the earth by magma until the rock > cooled, leaving it crystalized in the middle of a lump of quartz, or > something like that. I generally _don't_ buy that interpretation.) The one thrown into the waters should be possible to find though. Get Ulmo to search for it. He is always somewhere in a river or ocean anyway... /Jonas ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone References: <382ED858.757E3635@erols.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:34:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 942604462 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:34:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:34:22 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth jsolinas@erols.com: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > (Some have suggested that the Silmaril carried by Maedhros when he > > "cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire" was carried > > through the earth by magma until the rock cooled... > Wasn't the Earth flat at that point? Hey, I did say I didn't buy that theory. :) But really, who knows what sorts of flows of molten rock would be possible during the great upheavals at the end of the First Age, flat world or no. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "OLA Dration" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:41:08 +0300 Organization: MTU-Intel ISP Lines: 22 Message-ID: <80mvt1$1b0b$2@gavrilo.mtu.ru> References: <382ED858.757E3635@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial52110.mtu-net.ru X-Trace: gavrilo.mtu.ru 942605026 44043 195.34.52.110 (14 Nov 1999 18:43:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@mtu.ru NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 1999 18:43:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.rt.ru!MTU.ru!mtu.ru!not-for-mail Flame of the West eteecie tengwaresse <382ED858.757E3635@erols.com> ... >> (Some have suggested that the Silmaril >> carried by Maedhros when he "cast himself into a gaping chasm filled >> with fire" was carried through the earth by magma until the rock >> cooled, leaving it crystalized in the middle of a lump of quartz, or >> something like that. I generally _don't_ buy that interpretation.) >Wasn't the Earth flat at that point? Yes it was, as Silmarillion says. But S. is a mith and it express mithological point of wiew. In Morgoths Ring JRRT express an other point - somehow more 'realistic'. And there he says that Earth wasn't flat at any time. Namaarie Envinywen Heerince La illi il Alla Moohammed rasul Alla ###### From: rweddin187@aol.com (RWeddin187) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone Lines: 3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 Nov 1999 13:46:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991116084637.13157.00000007@ng-fo1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Arkenstone was mined from the heart of the mountain(erebor)found by Thrain 1 called thr heart of the mountain,Silmarilli were wrought by feanor and could not be duplicated,at this time he also wrought the palantari ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 21 Nov 1999 00:06:16 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <19991120190616.14025.00000348@ng-bd1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news-fra.pop.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Stuard Jensen wrote: >As we all know, when Tolkien began writing _The Hobbit_, he did not >think of it as being truly a part of his mythology. Ummm. Well. When Tolkien STARTED writing the Hobbit, with the line "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit" he did not even know what a hobbit was. But I'm not sure such observations tell us anything meaningful about The Hobbit. Once you get too much beyond that point, and certainly by the time he published it in 1937, it it pretty much certain that it is part of the same universe as his (unfinished) mythological writings, and that Tolkien intended it as such. -- John Whelan ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone References: <19991120190616.14025.00000348@ng-bd1.news.cs.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5hMZ3.108$iT1.2844@uchinews> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 06:27:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 943165633 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:27:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:27:13 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail > Stuard Jensen wrote: > >As we all know, when Tolkien began writing _The Hobbit_, he did not > >think of it as being truly a part of his mythology. Quoth nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc): > Once you get too much beyond [the first beginnings of _The Hobbit_], > and certainly by the time he published it in 1937, it it pretty much > certain that it is part of the same universe as his (unfinished) > mythological writings, and that Tolkien intended it as such. A quick dip into _Letters_ hasn't provided me with the exact quotes I was looking for, but I can at least provide the following quotes from Letter 163 (7 June 1955), in which Tolkien is discussing the genesis of _The Hobbit_ and LotR: Since _The Hobbit_ was a success, a sequel was called for... A lot of labor was naturally involved, since I had to make a linkage with _The Hobbit_; but still more with the background mythology. That had to be re-written as well. Now, my reading of these comments indicates that not until he began work on a sequel to _The Hobbit_ did Tolkien really try to integrate all his stories together. Other readings are, I suppose, possible, but this one makes the most sense to me. Maybe someone else can find one of the other quotes that I was looking for (one in which Tolkien talks about specific problems caused by an incomplete match between _The Hobbit_ and the greater mythology)... or perhaps they'll find a quote proving me wrong instead. :) We'll see. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:07:16 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 53 Message-ID: <818ugr$grk$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <19991120190616.14025.00000348@ng-bd1.news.cs.com> <5hMZ3.108$iT1.2844@uchinews> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.102 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 943193435 17268 12.79.28.102 (21 Nov 1999 14:10:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 1999 14:10:35 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:5hMZ3.108$iT1.2844@uchinews... > Maybe someone else can find one of the other quotes that I was > looking for (one in which Tolkien talks about specific problems > caused by an incomplete match between _The Hobbit_ and the greater > mythology)... or perhaps they'll find a quote proving me wrong > instead. :) We'll see. My take on this is that when JRRT began writing The Hobbit he had no intention of making it part of the world of his Silmarillion. However, as the work progressed more and more elements of those earlier stories were brought into it such that even before the start of LotR he considered the two worlds to be joined. In writing LotR and revising The Hobbit he then did some work to clear up and codify the connections. Some relevant quotations; "I have some 'pictures' in my drawer, but though they represent scenes from the mythology on the outskirts of which the Hobbit had his adventures, they do not really illustrate the story. The only possible one is the original coloured version of Mirkwood..." Letters #13 The painting in question was of Beleg and Gwindor from the Tale of the Children of Hurin. So, as far back as May of 1937 (months before he even considered writing LotR) JRRT considered The Hobbit to be 'on the outskirts of the mythology'. "I think it is plain that quite apart from it, a sequel or successor to The Hobbit is called for. I promise to give this thought and attention. But I am sure you will sympathize when I say that the construction of elaborate and consistent mythology (and two languages) rather occupies the mind, and the Silmarils are in my heart. So that goodness knows what will happen. Mr. Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy- tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it - so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge." Letters #19 "...by the time The Hobbit appeared (1937) this 'matter of the Elder Days' was in coherent form. The Hobbit was not intended to have anything to do with it. ... It had no necessary connexion with the 'mythology', but naturally became attracted towards this dominant construction in my mind, causing the tale to become larger and more heroic as it proceeded. Even so it could really stand quite apart, except for the references (unnecessary, though they give an impression of historical depth) to the Fall of Gondolin, ... the branches of the Elfkin, ... and the quarrel of King Thingol, Luthien's father, with the Dwarves." Letters #257 ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arkenstone Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 21 Nov 1999 12:47:53 GMT References: <5hMZ3.108$iT1.2844@uchinews> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <19991121074753.08288.00000614@ng-fz1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail > >> Stuard Jensen wrote: >> >As we all know, when Tolkien began writing _The Hobbit_, he did not >> >think of it as being truly a part of his mythology. > >Quoth nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc): >> Once you get too much beyond [the first beginnings of _The Hobbit_], >> and certainly by the time he published it in 1937, it it pretty much >> certain that it is part of the same universe as his (unfinished) >> mythological writings, and that Tolkien intended it as such. > >A quick dip into _Letters_ hasn't provided me with the exact quotes I >was looking for, but I can at least provide the following quotes from >Letter 163 (7 June 1955), in which Tolkien is discussing the genesis >of _The Hobbit_ and LotR: > > Since _The Hobbit_ was a success, a sequel was called for... > A lot of labor was naturally involved, since I had to make a > linkage with _The Hobbit_; but still more with the background > mythology. That had to be re-written as well. This sounds to me like he is saying he had to rewrite his mythology to make it comply with his ideas for LOTR, not for the Hobbit. This does not mean, even, that LOTR was originally intended not to be part of his mythology. It merely means that he cut loose with his imagination in LOTR (as with the Hobbit), and therefore had to integrate his newly invented persons, places and things into his background history. >Now, my reading of these comments indicates that not until he began >work on a sequel to _The Hobbit_ did Tolkien really try to integrate >all his stories together. Other readings are, I suppose, possible, Indeed they are. >but this one makes the most sense to me. Maybe someone else can find >one of the other quotes that I was looking for (one in which Tolkien >talks about specific problems caused by an incomplete match between >_The Hobbit_ and the greater mythology)... or perhaps they'll find a >quote proving me wrong instead. :) We'll see.. Remember, his mythology was ALWAYS very unfinished. When creating new materials there was never a great need to be loyal to what had gone before, which as an unfinished work could always be revised. -- John Whelan