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From: Creole <Creole38@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
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Jonas Thorell wrote:

> > Try close to three thousand. :) She was born approx 100 - 150 years
> > after Elrond married Celebrian, which he did at the beginning of the
> > third age.
>
> Thanks for the correction. Just out of curiosity: where did you get
> the numbers from (was a while since I read "The tale of..." if that is
> the source, mainly because I find it extremely dull). Makes her
> even more an elf in my eyes.

Appendix B, almost more of a favorite than the book itself when I was a kid:

Third Age

Year

100 Elrond weds daughter of Celeborn
139 Birth of Elladan and Elrohir, sons of Elrond
241 Brith of Arwen Undomiel

Since the War of the Ring takes place in 3018-9... Hey, you do the math. :)

> > The way I understand it, a half-elf can dither along as an elf until he
> > or she chooses to be human.
>
> Consider me strange or something but if someone has lived for
> 3000 years, I would consider said people be an Elf. No matter
> what Valar thinks. A human cannot live for 3000 years.
> I might have missed it somewhere but I cannot recall that
> Elros children ever had to make the choice. If your theory
> regarding Elronds children is true, wouldn't Elros children
> have to choose whenever Elros died?

Okay, the Silm states (don't have it in front of me at the moment to cite
chapter and verse) that Earendil was given the choice as to whether to choose
human and elf, *as were his sons.*. The choice, once made, was irrevocable; so
once Elros chose human, his descendants were stuck with it. They didn't care
for it much either.

I'm not quite sure why Elrond's kids weren't stuck with *his* choice though.
It may be that being "elf" qualified as zooming back to the Blessed Realm, so
that as long as Elrond stays in ME, the choice isn't final. At that point,
praps E&E&A were given the choice simply because they were *alive* at the
time. I mean, Elros married after his decision to become human; his children
already qualified as such. E&E&A, OTOH, were born while Elrond still qualified
as half-elf. Except that the Silm says that Elrond chose to be an elf, so...
<throws up hands in defeat>

Creole

######

From: "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
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Creole wrote:

>> Thanks for the correction. Just out of curiosity: where did you get
>> the numbers from (was a while since I read "The tale of..." if that is
>> the source, mainly because I find it extremely dull). Makes her
>> even more an elf in my eyes.

> Appendix B, almost more of a favorite than the book itself when I was a
> kid:

No Appendix B in my book (: "The tale of..." is the only appendix there.

> Okay, the Silm states (don't have it in front of me at the moment to cite
> chapter and verse) that Earendil was given the choice as to whether to
> choose human and elf, *as were his sons.*.

But nothing is said regarding grandsons, i.e. Arwen.

>The choice, once made, was irrevocable; so once Elros chose human,
>his descendants were stuck with it. They didn't care for it much either.

Depends on how far down the line you go. Okay, they didn't care about
the elf/man thing but did so considering the immortality/mortality bit. The
king that brought on the fall of Numenor was of Elros descendants
after all.

> <throws up hands in defeat>

This is getting complicated...basically, I think it boils down to that
Tolkien didn't consider all the implications the possibility for
elves and men to interbreed and the choice of the halfelvens.

/Jonas

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
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On Tue, 09 Nov 1999 17:36:54 GMT, "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
wrote:


>This is getting complicated...basically, I think it boils down to that
>Tolkien didn't consider all the implications the possibility for
>elves and men to interbreed and the choice of the halfelvens.

I think you've got it right there, Jonas.


All Homage To The Elton!!!

The Elton John Worship Page - NEW URL
http://eltonworship.virtualave.net

######

From: "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
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Prembone wrote:

>>This is getting complicated...basically, I think it boils down to that
>>Tolkien didn't consider all the implications the possibility for
>>elves and men to interbreed and the choice of the halfelvens.

> I think you've got it right there, Jonas.

Which part? The complicated bit...I somehow don't like
the idea of elves and men being able to interbreed. They're
supposed to be different species, and as such should not
be able to interbreed.

/Jonas

######

From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
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On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:04:41 GMT, "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
wrote:

>
>Prembone wrote:
>
>>>This is getting complicated...basically, I think it boils down to that
>>>Tolkien didn't consider all the implications the possibility for
>>>elves and men to interbreed and the choice of the halfelvens.
>
>> I think you've got it right there, Jonas.
>
>Which part?

That Tolkien didn't consider all the implications when he first
created his half-elven characters and stories.



"Fish to fish, chips to chips, fish to chips and chips to fish;
 each to its own, as each desires, and may all be well fed! Jolly good."

MythTakes: Tolkien Parody http://mythtakes.tsx.org
               ~~~Woo-hoo!!!~~~

######

From: "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
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Prembone wrote:

>>> I think you've got it right there, Jonas.

>>Which part?

> That Tolkien didn't consider all the implications when he first
> created his half-elven characters and stories.

Don't take every question so seriously...still, without the
half-elven and the possibility of elves to die his world
would be somewhat more boring. We wouldn't have
"Beren and Luthien" for instance.

/Jonas

######

From: Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
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Jonas Thorell wrote:
<ship>

> I somehow don't like
> the idea of elves and men being able to interbreed. They're
> supposed to be different species, and as such should not
> be able to interbreed.

Tell that to Spock...and B'Elanna Torres...and(if you have to)
Deanna Troi.

> Jonas

Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight

Ewoks are Hobbits!

######

From: "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
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Ermanna

>> I somehow don't like the idea of elves and men being able to interbreed.
>> They're supposed to be different species, and as such should not
>> be able to interbreed.

> Tell that to Spock...and B'Elanna Torres...and(if you have to)
> Deanna Troi.

I can't. My warpdrive is on repair. I watch StarTrek every now
and then but I just simply cannot recall that last name. Is it
a StarTrek name at all? If it is, it is not from Classic or Voyager
as far as I can remember (which is more or less all I've seen, some
episodes from TNG as well).

/Jonas

######

From: Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:51:00 -0500
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Jonas Thorell wrote:

> Ermanna
>
> >> I somehow don't like the idea of elves and men being able to interbreed.
> >> They're supposed to be different species, and as such should not
> >> be able to interbreed.
>
> > Tell that to Spock...and B'Elanna Torres...and(if you have to)
> > Deanna Troi.
>
> I can't. My warpdrive is on repair.

Oh, you poor thing!

> I watch StarTrek every now
> and then but I just simply cannot recall that last name. Is it
> a StarTrek name at all?

Deanna Troi? It is.

> If it is, it is not from Classic or Voyager
> as far as I can remember (which is more or less all I've seen, some
> episodes from TNG as well).

She's from TNG. She's the brunette sitting to Picard's right and,
in the series, she mostly wears tight jump-suits, an occantional
uniform, and in recent movies she just wears her uniform.

> Jonas

Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight

Ewoks are Hobbits!

######

From: Robert Brady <rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <381A57E8.2E5DE2B0@erols.com>   <38264505.94214A5B@erols.com> <a1vV3.2254$vN2.25213@dummy.bahnhof.se> <3826F2A9.C182B130@erols.com> <klFV3.2270$vN2.26494@dummy.bahnhof.se> <382725CB.2FE09D64@hotmail.com> <2CJV3.2386$vN2.27689@dummy.bahnhof.se> <3827843F.1C3F94FA@hotmail.com> <WYYV3.2400$vN2.30164@dummy.bahnhof.se> <3829a5d5.138704850@news.earthlink.net> <ZsiW3.3124$vN2.34121@dummy.bahnhof.se> <382B5B65.233F9A4D@erols.com> <l7KW3.3231$vN2.39647@dummy.bahnhof.se>
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Jonas Thorell <jonasth@bahnhof.se> wrote:
>I can't. My warpdrive is on repair. I watch StarTrek every now
>and then but I just simply cannot recall that last name. Is it
>a StarTrek name at all? If it is, it is not from Classic or Voyager
>as far as I can remember (which is more or less all I've seen, some
>episodes from TNG as well).

"Commander Deanna Troi" is fron TNG.

-- 
Robert

######

From: "Coverdale" <coverdale@eidosnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:48:41 -0000
Organization: Eidosnet
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Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote

> Deanna Troi? It is.


> She's from TNG. She's the brunette sitting to Picard's right and,
> in the series, she mostly wears tight jump-suits, an occantional
> uniform, and in recent movies she just wears her uniform.

(Slips into appropriate Conrad Dunkerson mode)....

Actually Deanna sits to Picard's left, if I remember correctly.

--
Rob

######

From: StevieRayVonnegut <buckbucknumber1NObuSPAM@yahoo.com.invalid>
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Prehaps Ewoks are a prehistoric breed of Hobbit.  Neanderthal Hobbits.
SRV
In article <382C4573.64C254EC@erols.com>, Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com>
wrote:
> Jonas Thorell wrote:
> > Ermanna
> >
> > >> I somehow don't like the idea of elves and men being able to
> interbreed.
> > >> They're supposed to be different species, and as such should
> not
> > >> be able to interbreed.
> >
> > > Tell that to Spock...and B'Elanna Torres...and(if you have to)
> > > Deanna Troi.
> >
> > I can't. My warpdrive is on repair.
> Oh, you poor thing!
> > I watch StarTrek every now
> > and then but I just simply cannot recall that last name. Is it
> > a StarTrek name at all?
> Deanna Troi? It is.
> > If it is, it is not from Classic or Voyager
> > as far as I can remember (which is more or less all I've seen,
> some
> > episodes from TNG as well).
> She's from TNG. She's the brunette sitting to Picard's right and,
> in the series, she mostly wears tight jump-suits, an occantional
> uniform, and in recent movies she just wears her uniform.
> > Jonas
> Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
> Ewoks are Hobbits!



* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

######

From: "R. Vink" <R.Vink@cable.A2000.nl>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:54:07 +0100
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Coverdale wrote:

> Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote
>
> > Deanna Troi? It is.
>
> > She's from TNG. She's the brunette sitting to Picard's right and,
> > in the series, she mostly wears tight jump-suits, an occantional
> > uniform, and in recent movies she just wears her uniform.
>
> (Slips into appropriate Conrad Dunkerson mode)....
>
> Actually Deanna sits to Picard's left, if I remember correctly.
>
> --
> Rob

 Yes, but only from Picard's perspective.

Renée

--
Homepage:  http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html

######

From: "Coverdale" <coverdale@eidosnet.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:29:39 -0000
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R. Vink <R.Vink@cable.A2000.nl> wrote in message
news:382D515F.9FACF277@cable.A2000.nl...
>
> Coverdale wrote:

> > Actually Deanna sits to Picard's left, if I remember correctly.

>  Yes, but only from Picard's perspective.


Err...yeah...like I said...Picard's left.....

--
Rob

######

From: Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:49:02 -0500
Lines: 27
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Coverdale wrote:

> Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote
>
> > Deanna Troi? It is.
>
> > She's from TNG. She's the brunette sitting to Picard's right and,
> > in the series, she mostly wears tight jump-suits, an occantional
> > uniform, and in recent movies she just wears her uniform.
>
> (Slips into appropriate Conrad Dunkerson mode)....
>
> Actually Deanna sits to Picard's left, if I remember correctly.

She sits to the viewer's left, usless you turn around, then to
your right. She sits at Picard's right.

> Rob

Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight

Ewoks are Hobbits!

######

From: Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:57:09 -0500
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <382E08CA.FFCFA6FA@erols.com>
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StevieRayVonnegut wrote:

> Prehaps Ewoks are a prehistoric breed of Hobbit.  Neanderthal Hobbits.
> SRV

<shnip>

> > Ewoks are Hobbits!

What? Oh, you're talking about my signature! At first I didn't
understand. It's possible. My idea, through, was that Ewoks
are descended from Hobbits.

Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight

Ewoks are Hobbits!

######

From: "R. Vink" <R.Vink@cable.A2000.nl>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Arwen and choices, was Re: Why Frodo had to go
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:18:32 +0100
Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie
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Ermanna wrote:

> Coverdale wrote:
>
> > Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote
> >
> > > Deanna Troi? It is.
> >
> > > She's from TNG. She's the brunette sitting to Picard's right and,
> > > in the series, she mostly wears tight jump-suits, an occantional
> > > uniform, and in recent movies she just wears her uniform.
> >
> > (Slips into appropriate Conrad Dunkerson mode)....
> >
> > Actually Deanna sits to Picard's left, if I remember correctly.
>
> She sits to the viewer's left, usless you turn around, then to
> your right. She sits at Picard's right.
>
> > Rob
>
> Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight

Just look again.

Renée V.


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