From: wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Ring as Fantasy Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 07 Nov 1999 07:01:57 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991107020157.01880.00001740@ng-ci1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail The essay "On Faerie Stories" seems to support this idea. The sub-creative effort of making an internally consistent fantasy world is much like the making of the Rings of Power, as opposed to magic being an effort to dominate the wills of others. Tolkien also says that each reader may interpret the written words differently than others will because naturally each has a different experience of something such as "Valley". Therefore, pictorial efforts to depict Middle-Earth fall short of the written word. Would he then have allowed my interpretation of Beren/Luthien having sex in the forests of Doriath? He's read Lewis Carroll, H.G. Wells, and Shakespeare -- good man! Prem, read the essay because it explains Tolkien's view that Escape is one of the essential elements of faerie stories -- forms a eucatastrophe rather than a tragedy and distinguishes faerie stories from Drama. So Frodo had to go. Mark Constantino ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <19991107020157.01880.00001740@ng-ci1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-34.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 41 Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 10:15:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 942055964 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 08 Nov 1999 02:12:44 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 02:12:44 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 07 Nov 1999 07:01:57 GMT, wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) wrote: >The essay "On Faerie Stories" seems to support this idea. The sub-creative >effort of making an internally consistent fantasy world is much like the making >of the Rings of Power, as opposed to magic being an effort to dominate the >wills of others. I think you're on the right track, but you're confusing a few things here. The Rings of Power *were* an effort to dominate the wills of others, at least to some extent. The effort of making a fantasy world is a lot like Elven 'magic' in general, though. >Tolkien also says that each reader may interpret the written words differently >than others will because naturally each has a different experience of something >such as "Valley". Therefore, pictorial efforts to depict Middle-Earth fall >short of the written word. Would he then have allowed my interpretation of >Beren/Luthien having sex in the forests of Doriath? Oh, that's your interpretation? I think you're right. They probably did have sex in the forests of Doriath. (See the Book of Lost Tales, Volume III, Chapter 12: "Beren and Lúthien Finally Get It On".) I thought your interpretation was that they had sex in the forests of Doriath *before they were married*, which would be totally incorrect. >He's read Lewis Carroll, H.G. Wells, and Shakespeare -- good man! > >Prem, read the essay because it explains Tolkien's view that Escape is one of >the essential elements of faerie stories -- forms a eucatastrophe rather than a >tragedy and distinguishes faerie stories from Drama. So Frodo had to go. I think his argument in that essay is particularly interesting in light of the Silmarillion, because it *is* a tragedy. (You can call it a 'eucatastrophe' if you really want, but then you can also call it a self-sealing stem bolt if you really want. That doesn't change what it is.) So is the Silmarillion a faerie story? I think Aristotle would call it a tragedy, but I think Tolkien would call it a faerie story. I don't think they're mutually exclusive categories. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy References: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> <19991108122250.24261.00003104@ng-fb1.aol.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 197.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 82 Date: 8 Nov 1999 11:48:03 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 942090493 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:48:13 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:48:13 PST Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 08 Nov 1999 17:22:50 GMT, Wilbur07 wrote: >>Oh, that's your interpretation? I think you're right. They probably >>did have sex in the forests of Doriath. (See the Book of Lost Tales, >>Volume III, Chapter 12: "Beren and Lúthien Finally Get It On".) > >My favorite chapter! But didn't Beren and Luthien go to Ossiriand or somewhere >after she brought him back from the halls of Mandos? That means they were only >properly married after they came back and so never had sex in Doriath itself IIRC they were Properly Married before they died. After they came back from Angband they wandered in the woods for a while before getting Properly Married. (Hence Chapter 12.) >(unless they visited their parents, which is doubtful), according to the "no >sex before marriage" rulemakers. Didn't "The Scouring of the Shire" give >Tolkien's views on rulemakers? "You're under arrest for Tearing Up of Rules." >I merely point out that if each reader can interpret words like "stone" or >"hill" or "valley" from out of the depths of experience then I think I'm >justified in interpreting "she slipped from his arms in the morning" as being >the afterglow of exquisite sex. Hence I am only not totally incorrect, >according to Tolkien, but essentially justified! She slipped from his arms *before* the morning, though. >>I think his argument in that essay is particularly interesting in >>light of the Silmarillion, because it *is* a tragedy. > >Ahhh, but no! Earendil and Elwing get to Valinor and deus ex machina saves the >remaining Eldar and a few houses of Men from complete destruction. Morgoth is >chained. A Silmaril is returned. Numenor is creates. That is the >eucatastrophe of the Silmarillion. That Beleriand is destroyed is tragic but >on the whole the Silmarillion isn't about the long defeat but triumph of good >in the end. That's not what it says about itself. Read the last sentence. >Tolkien said that *Drama* which requires tragedy is the antithesis of *Faerie* >which requires a self-sealing stem bolt (eucatastrophe). Drama may therefore >contain eucatastrophic elements (Romeo and Juliet -- Montague and Capulet cease >their quarrel) and Faerie may contain tragic elements (LotR -- downfall of the >Noldor realms in Middle Earth). But I think that the same way Tolkien disliked >the faeries in _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ Shakespeare would have disliked the >escape of Frodo into the West in LotR. I think you have an interesting observation here, but it appears Tolkien operated under a different definition of 'tragedy' from the one Aristotle or Shakespeare would use. For the Greeks tragedy was centered on the tragic hero, the protagonist who is basically good but destroys himself through his own character flaws. We see this pattern in Shakespeare's tragedies also. Tolkien, though, defined 'tragedy' in terms of how something ends: in particular, that it ends with a turn for the worse, as opposed to eucatastrophe, a turn for the better. In that sense, the Silmarillion is characterized by eucatastrophe rather than tragedy (except in a few places). But Aristotle would call it a tragedy, because it's about protagonists (the Elves and the Edain) who are basically good but manage, through all their petty jealousy and backstabbing and arrogance, to let Morgoth basically wipe the floor with their entire civilization. >I don't think people read "On Faerie Stories" enough -- rather they go to HOME >and BOLT for answers when they could go straight to the author himself. >Tolkien didn't like scientific method being applied to faerie because >sub-creation is out of the domain of scientific inquiry (you shouldn't break a >thing in order to find out what it is). That is, the process of breaking down >his faerie stories into their elements ruins the sub-creative effort of the >whole -- or trying to make a world that is consistent within itself is too >narrow a constraint on a faerie story. Thus the answer to balrog wings and Hmm. I like this. It's a good answer to just about all the major disputes around here. >elven ears is "what do you (individually) think?" because each reader brings to >a story his or her own experiences. The answer to Bombadil is also: "I put it >there to confound a reader who would try to make my story completely internally >consistent". Which it does, quite successfully. ###### From: wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy Lines: 82 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Nov 1999 17:22:50 GMT References: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19991108122250.24261.00003104@ng-fb1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >I think you're on the right track, but you're confusing a few things >here. The Rings of Power *were* an effort to dominate the wills of >others, at least to some extent. Yes, and so their very creation wasn't a "proper" exercise in sub-creation since the Rings could and were used to dominate the wills of others. I speculate that Sauron knew that the basis of Ring-making was against the nature of sub-creation and convincing (Celebrimbor?) to make them in the first place was the primary act of treachery on Sauron's part. Making the One Ring after the fact was possible only because Celebrimbor put the majority of collective elvish power into the Rings. >The effort of making a fantasy world is a lot like Elven 'magic' in >general, though. > Right, and so Tolkien keeps referring to things as being "elvish" in nature in an essay to an audience that has never heard of Middle-Earth and Tolkien's own creations, but has heard of Andrew Lang and Lewis Carroll. >Oh, that's your interpretation? I think you're right. They probably >did have sex in the forests of Doriath. (See the Book of Lost Tales, >Volume III, Chapter 12: "Beren and Lúthien Finally Get It On".) My favorite chapter! But didn't Beren and Luthien go to Ossiriand or somewhere after she brought him back from the halls of Mandos? That means they were only properly married after they came back and so never had sex in Doriath itself (unless they visited their parents, which is doubtful), according to the "no sex before marriage" rulemakers. Didn't "The Scouring of the Shire" give Tolkien's views on rulemakers? >I thought your interpretation was that they had sex in the forests of >Doriath *before they were married*, which would be totally incorrect. I merely point out that if each reader can interpret words like "stone" or "hill" or "valley" from out of the depths of experience then I think I'm justified in interpreting "she slipped from his arms in the morning" as being the afterglow of exquisite sex. Hence I am only not totally incorrect, according to Tolkien, but essentially justified! >I think his argument in that essay is particularly interesting in >light of the Silmarillion, because it *is* a tragedy. Ahhh, but no! Earendil and Elwing get to Valinor and deus ex machina saves the remaining Eldar and a few houses of Men from complete destruction. Morgoth is chained. A Silmaril is returned. Numenor is creates. That is the eucatastrophe of the Silmarillion. That Beleriand is destroyed is tragic but on the whole the Silmarillion isn't about the long defeat but triumph of good in the end. >So is the Silmarillion a faerie story? I think so. The tale of Turin is tragedy, but the tale of Earendil is eucatastrophic and therefore makes the whole of the Silm a faerie story. >I don't think they're mutually exclusive categories. Tolkien said that *Drama* which requires tragedy is the antithesis of *Faerie* which requires a self-sealing stem bolt (eucatastrophe). Drama may therefore contain eucatastrophic elements (Romeo and Juliet -- Montague and Capulet cease their quarrel) and Faerie may contain tragic elements (LotR -- downfall of the Noldor realms in Middle Earth). But I think that the same way Tolkien disliked the faeries in _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ Shakespeare would have disliked the escape of Frodo into the West in LotR. I don't think people read "On Faerie Stories" enough -- rather they go to HOME and BOLT for answers when they could go straight to the author himself. Tolkien didn't like scientific method being applied to faerie because sub-creation is out of the domain of scientific inquiry (you shouldn't break a thing in order to find out what it is). That is, the process of breaking down his faerie stories into their elements ruins the sub-creative effort of the whole -- or trying to make a world that is consistent within itself is too narrow a constraint on a faerie story. Thus the answer to balrog wings and elven ears is "what do you (individually) think?" because each reader brings to a story his or her own experiences. The answer to Bombadil is also: "I put it there to confound a reader who would try to make my story completely internally consistent". I don't think anybody can truly understand LotR without reading "On Faerie Stories" and "Tree and Leaf". Bollocks to HOME! :-) Mark Constantino ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:58:57 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Nov 8 12:05:01 1999 References: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> <19991108122250.24261.00003104@ng-fb1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-004mnminnp335.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 8 Nov 1999 19:55:14 GMT Message-ID: <38272b26.136241265@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail FWIW, I **have** read "On Faerie Stories." That doesn't mean I agree wtih his opinions. ;-) Nor necessarily that your conclusion about Frodo inevitably follows from Tolkien's opinions about "eucatastrophe" and "faerie stories," or that the "eucatastrophe" wasn't instead fulfilled by the rescue of Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom. All Homage To The Elton!!! The Elton John Worship Page - NEW URL http://eltonworship.virtualave.net ###### From: wilbur07@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 00:25:00 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <807pkp$rsb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> <19991108122250.24261.00003104@ng-fb1.aol.com> <38272b26.136241265@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.65.158.81 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 09 00:25:00 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 130.65.158.81 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwilbur07 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <38272b26.136241265@news.earthlink.net>, prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote: > FWIW, I **have** read "On Faerie Stories." That doesn't mean I agree > wtih his opinions. ;-) Nor necessarily that your conclusion about > Frodo inevitably follows from Tolkien's opinions about "eucatastrophe" > and "faerie stories," or that the "eucatastrophe" wasn't instead > fulfilled by the rescue of Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom. > Good! Then you know that Escape and Recuperation were important to Faerie stories according to Tolkien -- and Frodo goes West! At least that's how I see it. But there's room to question Frodo's departure of course. All homage to the Boss! Mark Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: wilbur07@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 00:37:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 155 Message-ID: <807qbr$sda$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> <19991108122250.24261.00003104@ng-fb1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.65.158.81 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 09 00:37:15 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 130.65.158.81 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwilbur07 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: > On 08 Nov 1999 17:22:50 GMT, Wilbur07 wrote: > > >>Oh, that's your interpretation? I think you're right. They probably > >>did have sex in the forests of Doriath. (See the Book of Lost Tales, > >>Volume III, Chapter 12: "Beren and Lúthien Finally Get It On".) > > > >My favorite chapter! But didn't Beren and Luthien go to Ossiriand or somewhere > >after she brought him back from the halls of Mandos? That means they were only > >properly married after they came back and so never had sex in Doriath itself > > IIRC they were Properly Married before they died. After they came back > from Angband they wandered in the woods for a while before getting > Properly Married. (Hence Chapter 12.) I actually think they made it a lot on their journey to and from Angband. Every chance they got, pretty much. > > >(unless they visited their parents, which is doubtful), according to the "no > >sex before marriage" rulemakers. Didn't "The Scouring of the Shire" give > >Tolkien's views on rulemakers? > > "You're under arrest for Tearing Up of Rules." To which I heartily laugh, although it makes some feel uncomfortable. > > >I merely point out that if each reader can interpret words like "stone" or > >"hill" or "valley" from out of the depths of experience then I think I'm > >justified in interpreting "she slipped from his arms in the morning" as being > >the afterglow of exquisite sex. Hence I am only not totally incorrect, > >according to Tolkien, but essentially justified! > > She slipped from his arms *before* the morning, though. Ok, I'll have to read that part of the Lay to get it right. I thought she slipped away as dawn broke, or, "in the morning". > > >>I think his argument in that essay is particularly interesting in > >>light of the Silmarillion, because it *is* a tragedy. > > > >Ahhh, but no! Earendil and Elwing get to Valinor and deus ex machina saves the > >remaining Eldar and a few houses of Men from complete destruction. Morgoth is > >chained. A Silmaril is returned. Numenor is creates. That is the > >eucatastrophe of the Silmarillion. That Beleriand is destroyed is tragic but > >on the whole the Silmarillion isn't about the long defeat but triumph of good > >in the end. > > That's not what it says about itself. Read the last sentence. > > >Tolkien said that *Drama* which requires tragedy is the antithesis of *Faerie* > >which requires a self-sealing stem bolt (eucatastrophe). Drama may therefore > >contain eucatastrophic elements (Romeo and Juliet -- Montague and Capulet cease > >their quarrel) and Faerie may contain tragic elements (LotR -- downfall of the > >Noldor realms in Middle Earth). But I think that the same way Tolkien disliked > >the faeries in _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ Shakespeare would have disliked the > >escape of Frodo into the West in LotR. > > I think you have an interesting observation here, but it appears Tolkien > operated under a different definition of 'tragedy' from the one Aristotle > or Shakespeare would use. > > For the Greeks tragedy was centered on the tragic hero, the protagonist > who is basically good but destroys himself through his own character > flaws. We see this pattern in Shakespeare's tragedies also. Tolkien, > though, defined 'tragedy' in terms of how something ends: in particular, > that it ends with a turn for the worse, as opposed to eucatastrophe, a > turn for the better. In that sense, the Silmarillion is characterized by > eucatastrophe rather than tragedy (except in a few places). But Aristotle > would call it a tragedy, because it's about protagonists (the Elves and > the Edain) who are basically good but manage, through all their petty > jealousy and backstabbing and arrogance, to let Morgoth basically wipe the > floor with their entire civilization. I think Shakespearean tragedy differs a little from the classical Greek, as does the Book of Job in the Bible. In _Romeo and Juliet_ the hubris is on the part of the families involved, not the protagonists -- it puts a different twist to tragedy. In Job, as opposed to the Greek depiction of hero, Job is fully without sinful pride (hubris) or remorse about loving God. He loses everything but simply loves God and moves on. Greek heroes are a bunch of bastards by comparison. > > >I don't think people read "On Faerie Stories" enough -- rather they go to HOME > >and BOLT for answers when they could go straight to the author himself. > >Tolkien didn't like scientific method being applied to faerie because > >sub-creation is out of the domain of scientific inquiry (you shouldn't break a > >thing in order to find out what it is). That is, the process of breaking down > >his faerie stories into their elements ruins the sub-creative effort of the > >whole -- or trying to make a world that is consistent within itself is too > >narrow a constraint on a faerie story. Thus the answer to balrog wings and > > Hmm. I like this. It's a good answer to just about all the major > disputes around here. > > >elven ears is "what do you (individually) think?" because each reader brings to > >a story his or her own experiences. The answer to Bombadil is also: "I put it > >there to confound a reader who would try to make my story completely internally > >consistent". > > Which it does, quite successfully. > Tolkien said himself that sometimes an unexplainable thing element is good for a story -- or something to that effect. Mark Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Ring as Fantasy Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:00:14 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Nov 10 09:05:02 1999 References: <3826a030.2538943@news.pc-intouch.com> <19991108122250.24261.00003104@ng-fb1.aol.com> <38272b26.136241265@news.earthlink.net> <807pkp$rsb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001mnminnp302.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 10 Nov 1999 16:56:05 GMT Message-ID: <3829a464.138336170@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.idt.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Tue, 09 Nov 1999 00:25:00 GMT, wilbur07@aol.com wrote: >In article <38272b26.136241265@news.earthlink.net>, > prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) wrote: >> FWIW, I **have** read "On Faerie Stories." That doesn't mean I agree >> wtih his opinions. ;-) Nor necessarily that your conclusion about >> Frodo inevitably follows from Tolkien's opinions about "eucatastrophe" >> and "faerie stories," or that the "eucatastrophe" wasn't instead >> fulfilled by the rescue of Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom. >> > >Good! Then you know that Escape and Recuperation were important to >Faerie stories according to Tolkien -- and Frodo goes West! Frodo escaped Mount Doom, and death. That was enough to fullfill it. >At least that's how I see it. But there's room to question Frodo's >departure of course. There's always room to question everything....except me. ;-) >All homage to the Boss! He's not bad. But there is only one Elton, and like unto him there is not other. All Homage! All Homage To The Elton!!! The Elton John Worship Page - NEW URL http://eltonworship.virtualave.net