Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 626 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 01:45:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 941852716 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 05 Nov 1999 19:45:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 19:45:16 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail As most entries are in their final form, I have finally decided to stop calling this a "beta version" of the new FAQ. If all goes will, this will also be the last posting of the FAQ that has one of these little introductory notes. However, the addition of two new topics has inspired me to ask explicitly for comments and advice. I suspect that the Elf ears section will need to be revised at least once before it's "final"; I'm hoping that I get some comments from advocates of each position on that one. As for the new tilde question, I guess my biggest question is whether or not I should add some mildly humorous reference to the subversion of the tilde to the prurient interests of the Tilde Club. :) As usual, all comments are welcome and appreciated. TOLKIEN NEWSGROUPS FAQ (Created 17 Aug 1999) (Last updated 5 Nov 1999) For many years, the Tolkien newsgroups have been home to a pair of excellent Frequently Asked Questions lists compiled by William D.B. Loos. These sources contain a wealth of information, but are no longer maintained (the last update seems to have been in July 1996). This means that quite a few issues of current interest to the groups are not fully addressed in those documents. This FAQ addresses part of this problem by providing information that is useful to new participants in the group. It contains general information about the Tolkien newsgroups and netiquette, references to the earlier FAQs, and brief overviews of many of the "Great Debates" that arise here frequently. The FAQ is also available on the web at: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html Finally, I would like to give my sincere thanks to the many, many people on the newsgroups who have given criticism, suggestions, and encouragement as I wrote this FAQ. This project would never have succeeded without their wonderful support. Steuard Jensen s-jensen@uchicago.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Table of Contents Sections/questions marked: * have been revised since the last release ** are new since the last release I. Changes Since the Last Release * II. Questions about Newsgroups and Netiquette A) The Newsgroups Themselves 1) What newsgroups are we talking about again? 2) Why are there two groups? 3) Do I have to have a Ph.D. in Tolkienology to post? 4) What questions and topics are appropriate? 5) What does a tilde (~) in the subject mean? and Is it acceptable to post messages with sexual content? ** B) Netiquette 1) What is the proper subject line for my post? 2) What should I do when replying to an earlier article? 3) I am able to post my messages with HTML formatting. Should I? 4) If someone insults me or otherwise makes me upset, should I flame them back? 5) Even if my reputation and honor are at stake? 6) Where can I go for more information on netiquette, and on Usenet in general? III. Information on Specific Topics A) Contents of the Tolkien FAQ B) Contents of the Tolkien LessFAQ C) The Great Debates 1) Story External Questions a) What books about Middle-earth are considered "canonical"? b) Is Middle-earth Medieval? c) Was Tolkien racist? Were his works? d) Are there electronic versions of Tolkien's books? ** 2) Story Internal Questions a) Did Balrogs have wings? b) Could Balrogs fly? c) Was the Lord of the Nazgul named "Angmar"? d) Who (and what) was Tom Bombadil? * e) Did Elves and Dwarves generally get along? f) Who killed the Witch-king, Merry or Eowyn? g) Why didn't they just have an Eagle fly the Ring to Mt. Doom? h) Did the Ring itself speak to Gollum on Mt. Doom? i) What was Gothmog (the lieutenant of Morgul)? j) Did Elves have pointed ears? ** ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ I. CHANGES SINCE THE LAST RELEASE The Bombadil question has been very mildly revised: the wording no longer implies that any particular suggestion has unambiguous support. Also, a reference to the discussion in the Tolkien FAQ has been added there. The debate about the pointedness of Elvish ears is now discussed in the "Great Debates" section. A section has been added dealing with electronic versions of Tolkien's books. Finally, a section describing the tilde convention has been added; I have placed it in the "the newsgroups themselves" section rather than under "netiquette" because I intend for the netiquette section to be applicable beyond the Tolkien groups. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ II. NEWSGROUPS AND NETIQUETTE A. THE NEWSGROUPS THEMSELVES 1) What newsgroups are we talking about again? Usenet is apparently home to quite a few newsgroups discussing Tolkien and his works. However, the two most widely read and distributed of these are rec.arts.books.tolkien and alt.fan.tolkien, commonly abbreviated either r.a.b.t and a.f.t or RABT and AFT, respectively. ------- 2) Why are there two groups? Originally, AFT was the only Tolkien newsgroup on Usenet. RABT was created as a replacement for AFT which would be carried by a larger fraction of news servers. However, AFT was never removed, and both groups currently enjoy substantial readership. While only RABT has a formal charter, the two groups are virtually identical. Some participants claim to see a subtle tendency for RABT to be marginally more "scholarly" in tone while AFT is marginally more "conversational", and a few people suggest that this small distinction is useful and should be encouraged. Other participants are not aware of any substantial difference, and often believe that a difference in focus would be both undesirable and impossible to achieve. In practice, everyone decides for themselves how they want to treat the two groups, and most people generally don't complain one way or the other. ------- 3) Do I have to have a Ph.D. in Tolkienology to post? By no means! People with any amount of Tolkien "lore" are welcome to participate. It is advisable, however, to have read _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ before spending much time here, as otherwise you run the risk of many, many spoilers for both books. When you do participate in discussions, just use whatever Tolkien knowledge you have. Occasionally, others will cite sources (often obscure but just as often authoritative) that weaken or disprove your arguments. When this happens (as it does to every one of us), nobody will think less of you for not knowing the reference; treat it as a chance to learn something new about Middle-earth. ------- 4) What questions and topics are appropriate? Virtually any topic related (even distantly) to Tolkien and his works is fair game, and in fact questions about C.S. Lewis and the other Inklings are technically on topic as well. If you post a purely "factual" question (like "How many Ringwraiths were there?"), it's a good idea to explain why you're asking: we periodically see questions from students who want us to do their quizzes or homework for them, and the last thing we want to do is help people to avoid reading the books! It is generally appreciated if articles that have absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien have subject lines beginning with "OT:" ("Off Topic"). The Tolkien newsgroups are a sufficiently social community that threads often do drift away from their initial topics, and while this should in no way be discouraged, it is polite to label it when it happens. Binary files, such as images or sounds, are NEVER appropriate in a non-binaries newsgroup. ------- 5) What does a tilde (~) in the subject mean? and Is it acceptable to post messages with sexual content? ** Articles posted to these newsgroups occasionally contain comments that some participants consider inappropriate for younger readers. After much discussion, most of the participants agreed that messages with _sexual_ content would be marked with a tilde in the subject line. Individual participants can then create killfiles to screen out such messages as desired. While not everyone agrees that such a system is beneficial, following this convention is the polite thing to do. ------------------------------------------------------------------ B. NETIQUETTE 1) What is the proper subject line for my post? Make sure that the "Subject:" line of your post matches the topic that you are discussing. Be concise, yet specific: subject lines such as "The Lord of the Rings" or "Tolkien" give the groups no useful information about the contents of your post. Note that this does not only apply to the first post in a thread: if you see that the subject line no longer matches the topic of a thread, change it when you reply! Also, follow the "OT:" convention for off-topic posts (mentioned in question II.A.4 above). When you do change the subject line, it is polite to indicate the subject of the previous post. For example, "Balrog Wings" might become "Balrog Flight (was Balrog Wings)" and then "Eagles (was Balrog Flight)". This helps people follow the history of the thread. ------- 2) What should I do when replying to an earlier article? First and foremost, make sure to retain the attribution of any quoted text, so others know who said the things you are replying to. Almost equally important, make sure that you trim the previous post as much as possible: * If you are replying to one specific comment in the previous article, delete all of the previous text except that comment. If the comment is at all long, try to trim it down to its essence. Type your reply directly beneath the quoted comment. * If you are replying to several distinct points individually, quote each one as above and type your reply immediately below it (but above the next point). * If you are replying to a long section that cannot be easily trimmed down (for example, an original poem or story), quote only its first and last lines (and perhaps put "[snip]" or "..." on a line in between the two). If there are particular pieces that you want to respond to individually, do so as described above. There are two general rules of thumb to follow in connection with the above guidelines: * Any article you post should have more lines of new text than lines of quoted text. It is generally acceptable to ignore this rule if the entire post (with headers and any signature) is short enough to fit on a single 24 line screen. * Any comments specifically replying to the previous article should come _below_ the relevant part of the previous article. This makes the flow of the discussion substantially easier to follow. Finally, make sure to keep the subject line up to date, as discussed in question II.B.1. ------- 3) I am able to post my messages with HTML formatting. Should I? Generally, no. Many of us use simple text-based programs to read news, and posts with HTML formatting can be very difficult to read. You can generally turn off this behavior from the "Preferences" or "Options" section of your newsreader. For some newsreaders, you will need to change more than one setting to completely eliminate this behavior. ------- 4) If someone insults me or otherwise makes me upset, should I flame them back? No. 5) Even if my reputation and honor are at stake? Feel free to post any corrections or differences in opinion that you feel are necessary. Feel free to indicate that you are hurt, unhappy, or insulted because of their comments. But by no means escalate the budding flame war, and try your hardest to be polite in your response: this tends to get the group's sentiments on your side far better than any exchange of name-calling ever could. People are usually fairly good at recognizing when someone is being terribly unfair. Yes, it is undoubtedly your right to flame if you want to, but the vast majority of the group would be happier if you did not. In general, try to give others the benefit of the doubt: with only text to go on, it's hard to judge their real intent. Could you have misread the insulting lines in their post? Could they have been speaking tongue in cheek? Maybe they only meant to tease you, not realizing that you would really be insulted. Assuming the worst is a depressing way to live one's life. Finally, be particularly careful not to reply to a "troll", someone who intentionally fishes for arguments and flames. These people seem to take great personal delight in inspiring people to anger or indignation; the best reaction to them is generally to ignore them altogether. ------- 6) Where can I go for more information on netiquette, and on Usenet in general? Probably the best place to look is the news.announce.newusers newsgroup. It contains many, many helpful articles, which are posted every few days so as to be perpetually available. Everyone who wants to post to Usenet really ought to read them all at some point. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ III. RESOURCES FOR INFORMATION ON SPECIFIC TOPICS A. THE TOLKIEN FAQ This document, while relatively old, contains a great deal of information. While its age means that the most recent thoughts on some questions are not included, what information it does contain is generally very accurate. It is generally posted monthly to the Tolkien newsgroups in two pieces, and is available on the Web at several locations, including http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~gsl9286/aft/faq/ http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolkienfaq.html For ease of reference, the index to the Tolkien FAQ is included below. A) Tolkien And His Work 1) Who was J.R.R. Tolkien anyway? 2) Were the languages presented in _The Lord of the Rings_ real languages? 3) What does it mean when people (or Tolkien himself) speak of him as having been the "editor" of _The Lord of the Rings_ ? 4) How thoroughly realized was Tolkien's fiction that he was the "translator" of _The Lord of the Rings_ ? 5) Why is Tolkien's work, _The Lord of the Rings_ in particular, so difficult to translate (into other languages of our world)? 6) Did the events in _The Lord of the Rings_ take place on another planet or what? 7) Was the northwest of Middle-earth, where the story takes place, meant to actually be Europe? 8) Was the Shire meant to be England? 9) What were the changes made to _The Hobbit_ after _The Lord of the Rings_ was written, and what motivated them? B) Hobbits 1) Were Hobbits a sub-group of Humans? 2) Did Hobbits have pointed ears? 3) When was Bilbo and Frodo's Birthday? To what date on our own calendar does it correspond? 4) Was Gollum a hobbit? C) Elves 1) Did Elves have pointed ears? D) Dwarves 1) Did Dwarf women have beards? E) Istari (Wizards) 1] Who were the Istari (Wizards)? 2] Of the Five Wizards, only three came into the story. Was anything known about the other two? 3] What happened to Radagast? F) Enemies 1] What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins? G) Miscellaneous 1] Who or what was Tom Bombadil? 2) What became of the Entwives? ------------------------------------------------------------------ B. THE TOLKIEN LESSFAQ A companion document to the Tolkien FAQ, the LessFAQ deals with questions that are not quite as common and tend to be a little more subtle. Most of the comments made above regarding the Tolkien FAQ apply equally well here. Note that the FAQs on the Web referred to above combine the FAQ and the LessFAQ into a single document. As above, the index of the LessFAQ is included below. A) Tolkien And His Work 1] Was there a change of tone between Book I and the rest of _The Lord of the Rings_ ? 2] Why did Tolkien fail to publish _The Silmarillion_ during the eighteen years which followed the publication of _The Lord of the Rings_ ? B) General History Of Middle-earth 1] What exactly happened at the end of the First Age? 2] In terms of the larger worldview, what exactly took place at the Fall of Numenor? C) Hobbits 1] Did Frodo and the others (Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli) who passed over the Sea eventually die, or had they become immortal? 2) In _The Hobbit_, Bilbo called the spiders Attercop, Lazy Lob, Crazy Cob, and Old Tomnoddy. What do the words mean? D) Elves 1] Were Elves reincarnated after they were slain? 2) Was Glorfindel of Rivendell (whom Frodo met) the same as Glorfindel of Gondolin, who was slain fighting a Balrog? 3) How were Eldar in Valinor named? E) Humans 1] What brought on the sinking of Numenor? 2] How could Ar-Pharazon of Numenor defeat Sauron while Sauron wielded the One Ring? 3] What happened to the Ring when Numenor was destroyed? 4] Where did the Southrons come from? Were they part of the Atani? F) Dwarves 1] What were the origins of the Dwarves? 2] If, as has been told, only Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were created, how did the race procreate? G) Enemies 1] What was the origin of the Orcs? 2] What was the origin of Trolls? H) Miscellaneous 1] Who was Queen Beruthiel (who was mentioned by Aragorn during the journey through Moria)? ------------------------------------------------------------------ C) THE GREAT DEBATES A great many questions about Tolkien and his books arise repeatedly on the Tolkien newsgroups. In general, the starting point of each debate is the same every time, and it takes a long time for the discussion to reach "new material." In the worst cases, bitter and longstanding arguments about the basics get in the way before new progress can be made at all. The purpose of a FAQ is generally to avoid this problem, by setting down the basics in a common place so that the discussion can deal with unknown territory from the start. However, it is very difficult to balance the need for conciseness with the need for completeness: many debates that repeatedly appear on the Tolkien newsgroups have generated very large amounts of "known territory." Several possible approaches to this problem are under consideration, and we will eventually decide on one. For now, this FAQ will provide only the briefest of summaries of these debates, and this means that almost all of the subtleties of the debates will be omitted for the sake of brevity. Keep in mind that every one of these topics has generated a great deal of discussion between many intelligent people: it is extremely unlikely that any straightforward argument has been overlooked. It is _strongly_ recommended that all those who wish to discuss any of these questions spend some time acquainting themselves with the old debates. Currently, the best way to do this is probably to search the archive at http://www.deja.com/ for old threads on these topics. The best way to do this is generally to go to their "Power Search" page, found at http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml, and specify "*tolkien" in the newsgroups field (without the quotes), in addition to whatever other criteria you use. Once you do decide to post on one of these topics, be careful! Finally, be sure to read question 1.a., dealing with "canonical" texts. This FAQ addresses only the state of Middle-earth after LotR was written, which corresponds roughly to the material included in the published _Silmarillion_. Details from earlier versions of the mythology will not be discussed here (and are generally given little weight in group debates). ------- 1) STORY EXTERNAL QUESTIONS a) What books about Middle-earth are considered "canonical"? A "canonical" text is one which is believed to provide authoritative information about Middle-earth. By and large, all agree that _The Lord of the Rings_ is a canonical text, and most assign equal or near equal weight to _The Hobbit_. However, due to heavy and unmarked posthumous editing, _The Silmarillion_ is considered by many _not_ to be canonical. People put various amounts of trust in the many drafts and essays in _Unfinished Tales_ and the "History of Middle-earth" series: in cases where Tolkien's intent seems particularly stable and clear, some trust these sources almost as much as _The Hobbit_ and LotR themselves. Opinions on how much to trust _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_ are very mixed. It is important to note that many aspects of Middle-earth changed substantially over the course of Tolkien's life: this FAQ only addresses the state of the mythology after LotR was written. ------- b) Is Middle-earth Medieval? Tolkien's works draw from quite a few periods of human history, and many aspects of Middle-earth distinctly resemble their real-world counterparts in the Middle-ages. However, there are substantial discrepancies in society and culture that indicate that other periods in history also made large contributions. The relative influence of Medieval and other periods has been hotly contested. ------- c) Was Tolkien racist? Were his works? Some people find what they consider clear indications of racist attitudes in Tolkien's works. Others, however, argue that those attitudes are not so clear, or that they do not exist at all. There are indications that in his everyday life, Tolkien was if anything less racist than most. ------- d) Are there electronic versions of Tolkien's books? For many aspects of Tolkien scholarship, it would be convenient to have an electronic version of the books (this would make full text searches feasible, for example). However, the Tolkien Estate has not chosen to authorize any electronic versions, probably because of the ease with which electronic versions can be copied and distributed (legally or illegally). Therefore, there are no legal electronic copies of Tolkien's writings. ------------------------------------------------------------------ 2) STORY INTERNAL QUESTIONS a) Did Balrogs have wings? Most but not all participants in these debates agree on the following: * The Balrog in Moria had "wings" of some sort, or if you prefer, a shadow shaped like wings. [We'll use (quoted) "wings" throughout.] * Those "wings" were probably not made of flesh and blood, but rather of some sort of "dark emanation" or "palpable darkness". The most intense arguments about Balrog wings seem often to have resulted largely from different uses of the word "wing," so be clear! On a related note, we do not know if the "wings" could take any other shape. ------- b) Could Balrogs fly? There is intense disagreement on this point. Most agree that the Moria passage does not provide convincing evidence for or against Balrogs' ability to fly. Most also agree that as Maiar, Balrogs might very well be able to fly even if they had no wings to do so. The only direct evidence one way or the other comes from a passage in _Morgoth's Ring_; some believe that this passage clearly describes Balrogs flying, others do not, and still others believe it to be ambiguous. ------- c) Was the Lord of the Nazgul named "Angmar"? There is no known instance in Tolkien's writings in which he used "Angmar" as a personal name; he used it only to refer to the Witch King's country, north of Rivendell and the Ettenmoors. Some people like to use "Angmar" as a nickname for the Witch King; this bothers some others. ------- d) Who (and what) was Tom Bombadil? [The Tolkien FAQ has a discussion of this same topic.] Theories on Bombadil's nature abound. Many people believe that Tom was a Maia: if we assume he is one of the types of entities we know of from the Silmarillion, this seems to be the best fit. Other popular views make Tom a nature spirit of a kind never explicitly described, either one of many, or the incarnation of Arda itself. These theories are inspired by comments at the Council of Elrond and in _Letters_. Many other possibilities exist (for example, that he is a Vala, Thingol, Eru, or Tolkien himself). A truly satisfying explanation of Bombadil's nature would explain Goldberry as well. ------- e) Did Elves and Dwarves generally get along? In general, Elves and Dwarves were allies against Morgoth and Sauron. However, their attitudes toward each other seem to have varied substantially at different times and places. In some cases, they were great friends, while in others they viewed each other with substantial mistrust. Many see indications of the latter in the Sindarin/Silvan kingdoms at the time of the War of the Ring, while something approaching the former held in Rivendell, where Gloin and Gimli were warmly welcomed. Opinions on the frequency of each attitude cover the entire spectrum. ------- f) Who killed the Witch-king, Merry or Eowyn? Most agree that Eowyn's stroke was the immediate cause of the Witch- king's death. The primary debate is whether Merry's role was simply to provide a distraction, or whether his sword was necessary to break some "spell of protection" that would otherwise have guarded the Witch-king from harm. The debate generally centers around the meaning of the quote "no other blade... would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter..." (RotK). ------- g) Why didn't they just have an Eagle fly the Ring to Mt. Doom? This debate is most interesting when limited to "story internal" arguments (i.e. "Otherwise it would be a dull book" is a cop-out). One possibility is that there were no Eagles available when they were needed. Another common argument is that Mordor was well defended, while the Eagles were even wary of shepherds with bows. Some suggest that like the Istari, the Eagles were forbidden by the Valar to help so directly. Many other explanations are seen repeatedly. The question is quite open, and some people don't think that there is any truly convincing explanation. ------- h) Did the Ring itself speak to Gollum on Mt. Doom? A literal reading of the text indicates that a voice did come from the wheel of fire (which was Frodo's repeated description of the Ring). On the other hand, Sam saw the scene with "other vision", which some believe makes literal readings less trustworthy, and many people doubt that the Ring was sufficiently sentient to speak. This is a fairly intricate question, with strong opinions on both sides: debates often become very intense. ------- i) What was Gothmog (the lieutenant of Morgul)? Gothmog (who shares his name with the Lord of Balrogs in the First Age) took command of Sauron's forces after the Witch-king was destroyed. Some believe that like the Mouth of Sauron he was human, while others claim that so responsible a position in Minas Morgul would only be given to another Nazgul. Several other possibilities also arise repeatedly. There seems to be no explicit evidence for any particular option. ------- j) Did Elves have pointed ears? ** [The Tolkien FAQ has a discussion of this same topic.] There is no known text in which Tolkien makes an unambiguous statement about the shape of Elvish ears. Those who argue in favor of pointed ears generally cite a remark which seems to support that position found in the "Etymologies" (part of _The Lost Road_). That document was written in the period immediately before the composition of LotR, so it is unclear to what extent it should be treated as a canonical source. Those who argue against pointed ears focus on Tolkien's statements that Elves and humans were sufficiently similar that they could be mistaken for each other. There is no group consensus on this issue. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------