From: " = j a c o b =" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Language of the Elves X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:15:35 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.54.81.152 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@wol.dk X-Trace: news010.image.dk 941748878 212.54.81.152 (Thu, 04 Nov 1999 21:54:38 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 21:54:38 MET Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.rt.ru!news1.tele.dk!news100.image.dk!news010.image.dk.POSTED!not-for-mail Where should I start if I want to learn subj. ?!? Cheers Jacob ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:02:48 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7vt7g8$obt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.212 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 941760840 24957 12.79.29.212 (5 Nov 1999 00:14:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 1999 00:14:00 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail = j a c o b = wrote in message news:iomU3.1306$y4.47341@news010.image.dk... > Where should I start if I want to learn subj. ?!? http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:50:01 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <7vta8p$6go$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vt7g8$obt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.212 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 941763673 6680 12.79.29.212 (5 Nov 1999 01:01:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 1999 01:01:13 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Creole wrote in message news:38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com... > One quick question for you -- what do the elvish words on the > title pages of LotR say? I spose I could sit there and > painstakingly translate it, but I know that I won't, so I figured > I'd ask. Heh, well if you mean the characters which appear at the top and bottom of the inside title page (not cover) they don't actually need to be translated at all... they are written in English, but need to be transliterated from the Angerthas (angular symbols at top of the page) and the Tengwar (rounded symbols at bottom of the page) into Arabic characters. Top of page: 'The Lord of the Rings translated from the Red Book' Bottom: 'of Westmarch by John Ronald Reule Tolkien : Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and Return of the King as seen by the Hobbits.' ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 01:25:17 -0500 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3822784D.57521F4D@virginia.edu> References: <7vt7g8$obt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> <7vta8p$6go$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-4.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > Heh, well if you mean the characters which appear at the top and > bottom of the inside title page (not cover) they don't actually need > to be translated at all... they are written in English, but need to > be transliterated from the Angerthas (angular symbols at top of the > page) and the Tengwar (rounded symbols at bottom of the page) into > Arabic characters. > Arabic??????? Wouldn't that just make the job even harder? :-) -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### Message-ID: <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves References: <7vt7g8$obt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 02:29:56 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.115.22.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 941761792 192.115.22.24 (Fri, 05 Nov 1999 00:29:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 00:29:52 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.new-york.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad, I took a glance at the website and my eyes nearly popped... Whoa! Very impressive. One quick question for you -- what do the elvish words on the title pages of LotR say? I spose I could sit there and painstakingly translate it, but I know that I won't, so I figured I'd ask. Creole ###### Message-ID: <3822386C.41663B77@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves References: <7vt7g8$obt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> <7vta8p$6go$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 03:52:44 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.115.22.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 941766725 192.115.22.27 (Fri, 05 Nov 1999 01:52:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 01:52:05 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Creole wrote in message > news:38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com... > > > One quick question for you -- what do the elvish words on the > > title pages of LotR say? I spose I could sit there and > > painstakingly translate it, but I know that I won't, so I figured > > I'd ask. > > Heh, well if you mean the characters which appear at the top and > bottom of the inside title page (not cover) they don't actually need > to be translated at all... they are written in English, but need to > be transliterated from the Angerthas (angular symbols at top of the > page) and the Tengwar (rounded symbols at bottom of the page) into > Arabic characters. I discovered in this in the appendix, but I hadn't yet figured out how to do a proper translation. I know it would probably simply be a matter of transcribing from the charts in the appendix, but I tried it once and simply gave up. Much thanks for your reply. :) Creole ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <7vtn4k$1f0_010@news.uswest.net> References: X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 04:40:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.122 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941776898 207.224.147.122 (Thu, 04 Nov 1999 22:41:38 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 22:41:38 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite In article , " = j a c o b =" wrote: >Where should I start if I want to learn subj. ?!? Check out "So You Want To Learn Elvish" at Suite101.Com's Tolkien and Middle-earth topic [http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien]. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 08:13:50 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7vulrf$o8h$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vt7g8$obt$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> <7vta8p$6go$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <3822784D.57521F4D@virginia.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.133 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 941808303 24849 12.79.56.133 (5 Nov 1999 13:25:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Nov 1999 13:25:03 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Larry Richards wrote in message news:3822784D.57521F4D@virginia.edu... > Arabic??????? Wouldn't that just make the job even harder? :-) Bleh. Getting my letters and numbers mixed up. English numbers are primarily Arabic in origin. English letters are primarily Roman in origin (though the Romans developed them from older alphabets). ###### From: urban@netcom.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Date: 5 Nov 1999 15:21:10 GMT Organization: NETCOM / MindSpring Enterprises, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <7vusl6$jno$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> References: <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> <7vta8p$6go$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <3822386C.41663B77@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.73 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!urban In article <3822386C.41663B77@hotmail.com>, Creole wrote: > > >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> Creole wrote in message >> news:38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com... >> >> > One quick question for you -- what do the elvish words on the >> > title pages of LotR say? I spose I could sit there and >> > painstakingly translate it, but I know that I won't, so I figured >> > I'd ask. >> >> Heh, well if you mean the characters which appear at the top and >> bottom of the inside title page (not cover) they don't actually need >> to be translated at all... they are written in English, but need to >> be transliterated from the Angerthas (angular symbols at top of the >> page) and the Tengwar (rounded symbols at bottom of the page) into >> Arabic characters. > >I discovered in this in the appendix, but I hadn't yet figured out how >to do a proper translation. I know it would probably simply be a matter >of transcribing from the charts in the appendix, but I tried it once and >simply gave up. Much thanks for your reply. :) > >Creole > I wrote an article on Tolkien's writing systems for a Middle-Earth Collectible Card Game newsletter, and you can fetch it from ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ur/urban/lang.pdf and ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ur/urban/tengtable.pdf In one or two places there are references to the MECCG cards, but it should be a useful general introduction to the subject. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Language of the Elves Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 02:35:08 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 39 Message-ID: <25756-3823DA2C-135@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <38222504.62E6152A@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAgnW2u7+FucAFDXBqG/WC765ShLECFQCsmDhKjqL/r7MwonsSQfNcXGb3qA== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Creole wrote: >One quick question for you -- what do >the elvish words on the title pages of >LotR say? Here's the transliterations for the title pages of the LotR, Silmarillion, UT, and BoLT I, if anyone's interested: Lord of the Rings: "The Lord of the Rings: Translated from the Red Book of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the Return of the King as seen by the Hobbits." Silmarillion: "The tales of the First Age when Morgoth dwelt in Middle-earth and the elves made war upon him for the return of the Silmarils; to which is appended the downfall of Numenor and the history of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in which these tales come to their end." Unfinished Tales: "In this book of Unfinished Tales by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien which was brought together by Christopher Reuel Tolkien his son are told many things of men and elves in Numenor and in Middle-earth, from the Elder Days in Beleriand to the War of the Ring, and an account is given of the Druedain, the Istari, and the Palantiri" Book of Lost Tales I: "The first part of the Book of Lost Tales of Elfinesse Eriol learned from the elves of Tol Erresea in the Western Ocean and afterwards wrote in the tower of Tavrobel: herein are told the Tales of Valinor from the Music of the Ainur to the Exile of the Noldoli and the Hiding of Aman" --Dave