From: jsavard@ecn.ab.ca () Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Balrogs, and their wings... Date: 2 Nov 99 06:05:49 GMT Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 22 Message-ID: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: news.sas.ab.ca 941522837 29942 198.161.206.2 (2 Nov 1999 06:07:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 06:07:17 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.6] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!jsavard Balrogs _do_ have wings. At one point, we are told (in an "obvious simile") that the Balrog's shadow streched out like wings. But then a few paragraphs later, we are told that the Balrog actually stretches out its wings. So the Balrog is very menacing: even when we don't see its wings, it casts a big, wide shadow, but it also does have actual wings. However, the last time I read LotR, I imagined a Balrog without wings, and I probably will do so again the next time. Thus, while intellectually in one camp, I am emotionally in the other. If Tolkien had introduced us to the Balrog's wings earlier, so that we would start off by visualizing it on the right foot - and avoided the clumsiness of a simile based on a real aspect of the described object - I would have been able to read his work more faithfully. (Such fuzzy reading habits - or admitting to them - may undermine my position about Frodo speaking on Mount Doom, but there I think they will do so not by much.) John Savard ###### From: "Shozan Ando" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Lines: 29 Organization: The Galactic Empire X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.253.66 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 941571107 212.151.253.66 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 20:31:47 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 20:31:47 MET DST X-Sender: unknown@d212-151-253-66.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:31:44 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail > Balrogs _do_ have wings. > > At one point, we are told (in an "obvious simile") that the Balrog's > shadow streched out like wings. > > But then a few paragraphs later, we are told that the Balrog actually > stretches out its wings. > > So the Balrog is very menacing: even when we don't see its wings, it casts > a big, wide shadow, but it also does have actual wings. > > However, the last time I read LotR, I imagined a Balrog without wings, and > I probably will do so again the next time. Thus, while intellectually in > one camp, I am emotionally in the other. If Tolkien had introduced us to > the Balrog's wings earlier, so that we would start off by visualizing it > on the right foot - and avoided the clumsiness of a simile based on a real > aspect of the described object - I would have been able to read his work > more faithfully. (Such fuzzy reading habits - or admitting to them - may > undermine my position about Frodo speaking on Mount Doom, but there I > think they will do so not by much.) > > John Savard Just face it. Balrog did _NOT_ have wings. Shozan Dragon ###### From: shuggybarr@aol.com (ShuggyBarr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Nov 1999 22:37:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Message-ID: <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >Just face it. Balrog did _NOT_ have wings. Yes it did - and I quote:- "It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its WINGS were spread from wall to wall;" Seems pretty clear to me!!!!! ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 00:54:57 +0100 Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7vntgp$dm8$1@diana.bcn.ttd.net> References: <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tn174-204.tinn.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mad.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!not-for-mail ShuggyBarr escribió en mensaje <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com>... >> >>Just face it. Balrog did _NOT_ have wings. > >Yes it did - and I quote:- > >"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to >a great height, and its WINGS were spread from wall to wall;" > >Seems pretty clear to me!!!!! Come on, Steuard, get down from that balcony. Take off the rope from your neck, slowly, ok. And let go of that gun, here. Now, if you would put off the fuse of your bomb, well done, nice boy. Now come back to your FAQ and reword it a little, will you? Feeling better? :-> R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Date: 03 Nov 1999 16:46:31 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6ud7trbmso.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > > NOOOOOOOOOOO! Not again! Me, too! > http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html > > The Balrog wings issue is the first topic in the "Story-internal > Questions" section. A good collection of the many battles of the War of r.a.b.t: balrog wings, Bombadil, elf/dwarf relationship, Eowyn/Merry killing, Frodo/Ring speaking, and a few I did not know of. But I miss one: The elf ears! Is there anywhere an decent collection of the pro/contra arguments for that one? Perhaps you could add this in a future version of the FAQ? > something like that; it's been a while) and my "Summary of the War of > the Wing", both posted a few months ago (look for them on deja.com). A very good one. So I am surprised you left away the direkt URL to the copy of it on your own website: http://student-www.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/WingConsensus.txt -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... References: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> <6ud7trbmso.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 37 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 16:00:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 941644816 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:00:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:00:16 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Neil Franklin : [concerning my Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ] > A good collection of the many battles of the War of r.a.b.t: balrog > wings, Bombadil, elf/dwarf relationship, Eowyn/Merry killing, > Frodo/Ring speaking, and a few I did not know of. Why thank you! I've tried to do the best I could... with quite a few helpful comments from others on the group. It's not quite the glorious compendium that I initially planned it to be, but it at least warns people where the hot spots are. Incidentally, I'm in the middle of preparing what I like to think will be the first non-beta version right now (well, when I'm not doing my loads of homework, that is), so look for it on the group soon! > But I miss one: The elf ears! Is there anywhere an decent collection > of the pro/contra arguments for that one? Perhaps you could add this > in a future version of the FAQ? Wow... I feel silly. Look for this in the aforementioned new version of the FAQ. I'm sure someone's already reminded me to add this in the past, and I just forgot. Well, it's never too late. :) [Referring to my "Summary of the War of the Wing"] > A very good one. So I am surprised you left away the direkt URL to the > copy of it on your own website: > http://student-www.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/WingConsensus.txt You know, I'd entirely forgotten it was there. :) I haven't had my home computer up and running for a while (almost a month, now), so I haven't been able to use Netscape or edit my "master copies" of the site for a while... Incidentally, the address that you've cited above works, but it's not the "official" one anymore, and may eventually disappear. "student-www" should be replaced with "home". Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.109.153 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 941647719 212.151.109.153 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 17:48:39 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 17:48:39 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-109-153.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:48:40 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail ShuggyBarr hath written: >>Just face it. Balrog did _NOT_ have wings. > >Yes it did - and I quote:- > >"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to >a great height, and its WINGS were spread from wall to wall;" Yes, but some people (I'm one of them) think that this is a simile since we read just a little earlier in the text that its shadow stretched out behind it "like wings". There are other examples of Tolkien using similes in this manner. There really is no way to prove who is right and who is wrong about this one. [D&RC] Öjevind -- ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:04:11 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 30 Message-ID: <38207819.2417445@news.prosurfr.com> References: <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: dagger.ab.videon.ca 941652192 2510 24.108.21.103 (3 Nov 1999 18:03:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 1999 18:03:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.bctel.net!news.tac.net!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail "Öjevind Lång" wrote, in part: >ShuggyBarr hath written: >>Yes it did - and I quote:- >> >>"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up >to >>a great height, and its WINGS were spread from wall to wall;" >Yes, but some people (I'm one of them) think that this is a simile since we >read just a little earlier in the text that its shadow stretched out behind >it "like wings". There are other examples of Tolkien using similes in this >manner. There really is no way to prove who is right and who is wrong about >this one. [D&RC] Certainly it requires awfully big wings - and a jarring change in how the Balrog is visualized. While Tolkien uses similes, I think there are no other examples of such sloppy writing by him. In my opinion, the second sentence is worded too explicitly to allow poetic license; even if the wings only seemed to extend from wall to wall, there is just no realistic way that he could still be talking about the shadow. I must put it down to missing something as one is revising a draft. (Perhaps HoME has the answer!) John Savard ( teneerf<- ) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 18:06:01 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <38207944.2716881@news.prosurfr.com> References: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: dagger.ab.videon.ca 941652300 2510 24.108.21.103 (3 Nov 1999 18:05:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Nov 1999 18:05:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.tac.net!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote, in part: >What I _meant_ to say was: perhaps it would be >best not to open this particular issue again at the moment, unless >you've found some substantial new evidence that has not been >considered in the past. Actually, at the moment, the issue seems to *be* open, unfortunately; I was trying to close it by noting in a new way its limited importance - despite my head knowing from the text that they must have wings, my heart does not accept it. John Savard ( teneerf<- ) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <7vq0sq$3bo_008@news.uswest.net> References: <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:02:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.219 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941655850 207.224.147.219 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 13:04:10 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 13:04:10 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >ShuggyBarr hath written: > >>>Just face it. Balrog did _NOT_ have wings. >> >>Yes it did - and I quote:- >> >>"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up >>to a great height, and its WINGS were spread from wall to wall;" > > >Yes, but some people (I'm one of them) think that this is a simile There is no simile in the above passage, and simile is not used across several paragraphs. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Message-ID: References: <19991102173730.11178.00000246@ng-cm1.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 01:46:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 941680007 208.170.95.67 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:46:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:46:47 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Yes, but some people (I'm one of them) think that this is a simile since we > read just a little earlier in the text that its shadow stretched out behind > it "like wings". There are other examples of Tolkien using similes in this > manner. There really is no way to prove who is right and who is wrong about > this one. [D&RC] Some time ago I posted a message showing that about half the time Tolkien refers to "wings", he's referring not to the actual wing of a bird or beast, but to something that looked like a wing or resembled a wing in some way. Come to think of it, that's also one of the dictionary definitions of "wing": "an appendage or part resembling a wing in shape, appearance, or position." But then I'm also the one who posted the "proofs" that every sentient creature in Middle-earth had the power of flight... :) DS ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Message-ID: References: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> <38207944.2716881@news.prosurfr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 01:57:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 941680659 208.170.95.67 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:57:39 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 19:57:39 CST Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <38207944.2716881@news.prosurfr.com>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: > Actually, at the moment, the issue seems to *be* open, unfortunately; > I was trying to close it by noting in a new way its limited importance > - despite my head knowing from the text that they must have wings, my > heart does not accept it. I think it's perfectly acceptable to read the text so that "wings" is only one of several words used for the darkness surrounding the Balrog. In the relevant paragraphs we have: "The fire in it seemed to die, but the DARKNESS grew." "...it drew itself up to a great height, and its WINGS were spread from wall to wall" "Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the GLOOM" "like a wizened tree before the onset of a STORM" "From out the SHADOW a red sword leaped flaming." "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its SHADOW plunged down and vanished." With the exception of "darkness" (and perhaps "gloom"), all of these are non-exact descriptions: there were no clouds in Moria, nor was there a thunderstorm brewing, nor was the darkness a true "shadow" cast by the Balrog; in fact, it wasn't really "darkness" in the sense of a mere absence of light either. Since "wings" was already defined as "the shadow about [the Balrog]", it is perfectly acceptable style to use it according to its definition. I don't think anyone is obliged to think that is what Tolkien meant, but it would be a grave mistake to suppose that "wings" cannot possibly = "shadow". David Salo ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy Message-ID: <7vr7pq$1q4_006@news.uswest.net> References: <381e7f3d.0@ecn.ab.ca> <38207944.2716881@news.prosurfr.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 06:06:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.119.201 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941695657 209.181.119.201 (Thu, 04 Nov 1999 00:07:37 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 00:07:37 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!xenite In article , dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) wrote: > Since "wings" was already defined as "the shadow about >[the Balrog]", [BZZZT!] Tolkien never wrote any such definition. Next! -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: davidr3986@aol.com (DavidR3986) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 Nov 1999 07:52:42 GMT References: <38207819.2417445@news.prosurfr.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991104025242.01994.00000885@ng-cj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!rohrpostix.uta4you.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!news.sbg.ac.at!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.82.12!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Hi. I'm something of an infrequent lurker to this newsgroup. Although I realize that this whole 'winged' vs 'wingless' debate is useless flaming nonsense, I still feel irresistably drawn to say something about it. If the Balrog really had actual, physical wings, and not just 'wings of shadow', how come he fell? I'm serious. If he had wings, he should have been able to use them to fly. Personally, I don't see a demigod choosing to adopt a physical form draped with useless appendages, and we've already see that Tolkien merrily disregards physics, as witness Smaug and Shelob. If the Balrog could fly, there would be no need for him to fall down the chasm. In fact, why would Gandalf bother to break the bridge at all if the Balrog were able to fly? Gandalf himself fell into the chasm because the Balrog, falling, snagged him on the way down. It just doesn't seem reasonable that Gandalf would put himself in that kind of danger unless he had an expectation that it would be worse for the Balrog. Now, I can see two counter-arguments. First, Gandalf might have broken the bridge, not to stop the Balrog per se, but to keep the Orcs from pursuing the Fellowship. This makes sense, and I can't refute it. Second, the unfortunate sentence describing the Balrog's wings does say that they stretch from wall to wall, so one could claim that the chasm was too confined a space for the Balrog to use his supposed wings to fly. My response to that would be ask, how big then would the Balrog have to be to have that large a wingspan? Personally, I can't see it as being more than 12' tall, myself. I rather envision that part of Moria as being quite large, so large that a creature whose wings could stretch from wall to wall would be far too large to navigate Moria's corridors in the first place. Well, I hope this wasn't too irritating. Thank you for your attention. -David ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... References: <38207819.2417445@news.prosurfr.com> <19991104025242.01994.00000885@ng-cj1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 42 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 21:26:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 941750773 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 04 Nov 1999 15:26:13 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 15:26:13 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth davidr3986@aol.com (DavidR3986): > Hi. I'm something of an infrequent lurker to this newsgroup. > Although I realize that this whole 'winged' vs 'wingless' debate is > useless flaming nonsense, I still feel irresistably drawn to say > something about it. Believe me, I know very well what that temptation is like! However, as I pointed out in my little plea at the beginning of this thread, just about every argument on this topic that is even marginally straightforward has been debatd at great length in the past. In particular, all of the arguments that you listed for "winglessness" are fairly standard (and you also managed to present some of the standard objections, too). Without something fundamentally new (which, alas, I haven't seen on this topic for quite some time), there isn't much to be gained by discussing the issue, I'm afraid. More concretely, the "Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ" is intended as something of a warning about debates such as this one. While the format that I have chosen for that FAQ does not list all of the standard arguments, the very fact that the question is included in the "Great Debates" section means that most standard arguments are _very_ familliar. The FAQ includes the address of www.deja.com as a reference for thsoe seeking more information. I _strongly_ encourage anyone who is considering a post on a topic discussed in the FAQ to look through the old group archives on deja.com to see if their arguments will add anything to the discussion. I'm honestly not trying to berate or insult you or anyone else who has posted old arguments to this thread, but hey, I took the time to put together this FAQ so that people would know where the hot spots are; it couldn't hurt to use it. Yes, there is a moderate need for more detailed summaries of all these topics, but that's an enormous amount of work, and last I checked there wasn't _that_ much of a popular movement to participate in a "mini-FAQ" compilation process. (Still, thanks anyway to those who did offer to help out, once upon a time. The day may come, eventually...) Oh, and if you're saying "what FAQ?", it's in the process of revision at the moment (between bouts of Quantum Field Theory and Solid State Physics, that is), and should be reposted within a few days. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:48:20 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 29 Message-ID: <2155-38225384-70@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAvlPFuYO1yknOR6ezW0fFXspKA3oCFQCC9hVBndpCt2oR8ubSVz29mSy15A== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Ojevind Lang wrote: >>its WINGS were spread from wall to >>wall;" >Yes, but some people (I'm one of them) >think that this is a simile since we read >just a little earlier in the text that its >shadow stretched out behind it "like >wings". Actually while the first passage is a simile, the second passage is not. A simile is a description which uses the word "like" or "as", and neither word appears in the second passage. Now, if the description of the shadow "like wings" is truly being continued in the second passage, then it is a metaphor, not a simile. I know I'm nitpicking, but at this point nit-picks are probably all that's left to say about this particualr topic :) That's where the disagreement lies. This is the only passage in all of Tolkien's writings that I know of where a Balrog is graphically described. The biggest problem is that I don't know whether Tolkien actually meant the passage to be taken literally or as a metaphor (I'm sure MM would tell me that it was definitely wings, no ifs ands or buts about it :) ) . I'm more or less on the side of those who say that the Balrogs did have wings, though. --Dave ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2155-38225384-70@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Balrogs, and their wings... Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.62.228 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 941834423 212.151.62.228 (Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:40:23 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:40:23 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-62-228.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:40:22 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail David Sulger hath written: Ojevind Lang wrote: >>its WINGS were spread from wall to >>wall;" >Yes, but some people (I'm one of them) >think that this is a simile since we read >just a little earlier in the text that its >shadow stretched out behind it "like >wings". Actually while the first passage is a simile, the second passage is not. A simile is a description which uses the word "like" or "as", and neither word appears in the second passage. Now, if the description of the shadow "like wings" is truly being continued in the second passage, then it is a metaphor, not a simile. I know I'm nitpicking, but at this point nit-picks are probably all that's left to say about this particualr topic :) I quite agree. And of course you are right. About it being a metaphor, that is; you may have gathered that I go to the Church of the Wingless Balrog. :-) Öjevind