From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Selling God: Burden of Proof Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:47:50 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Nov 1 03:45:03 1999 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 88 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-004mnminnp335.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 1 Nov 1999 11:43:16 GMT Message-ID: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Here's a little parable I wrote for the Internet Infidels board when we were experiencing a deluge of would-be evangelists. It seems apropos to post it here, since the god-debate appears to have grown large. So, too, have the number of flame posts...what's with that? Oh, well, makes it easier for me to catch up when I can only check in every five days or so. ;-) Anyway, this story doesn't necessarily address any particular post directly, but it's generally relevant to the discussion. Enjoy. ******** THE PARABLE OF THE SNAKE OIL Once upon a time there was a happy place called Infie Valley. Oh, the folks of Infie Valley had their contentions and their crises, like all of us do, but on the whole they were a contented lot. Now one day into the serenity of Infie Valley there rode a Snake Oil Salesman -- and I do mean Sales-*man*, not Sales-*person*. For some reason or other, the purveyors of Snake Oil were almost always men, and so it was with this one. Into Infie Valley he rode, and right in the Main Square he pitched his platform, and there began to hawk his wares with a brazen and surefire air. "This Snake Oil will cure you of whatever ails you!" he proclaimed. "We ain't sick," countered a bystander. "Ah, but you are," replied the Snake Oil Salesman with a slick-oil smile. "Blindly you refuse to see, but I can see that you definitely are sick, and I hold in my hands the cure." "You're talkin' nonsense," declared a second. "We're all hale and hearty here, thanks to the fresh, open air and pure sunlight of Infie Valley that keeps us that way." "Don't need no greasy ol' Snake Oil," shouted a third. "It's the Snake Oil as makes folks sick," said a fourth. "I hear folks as get in the Snake Oil habit can't abide no more by fresh, open air and pure sunlight." "Gentlemen, gentlemen," broke in the Snake Oil Salesman. "And ladies," he added as an afterthought. "If you have *reason* to believe that my Snake Oil is no good, I invite you to prove it to me now." Crossing his arms over his chest, he looked smugly over the subdued crowd. "Well," ventured one, "I hear tell--" "Facts, please," dismissed the Snake Oil Salesman. "Documented facts, not hearsay." At that the crowd fell silent. You see, the folks of Infie Valley had been too busy with living and enjoying their lives to bother with pursuing detailed research on the merits and demerits of Snake Oil. Then the Old Timer stepped forward. "Now, let me get this straight: You're the one wants to sell us something we don't want and don't need, 'cause you say we do need it and should want it, even though you haven't convinced us that we really do need it, nor proven to us why we really oughta want it, and, furthermore, you tell us that before we refuse to buy what you're selling, *we* have to prove to *you* that we *don't* need it?" "That's right, sir," said the Snake Oil Salesman, still smiling. The Old Timer looked the Snake Oil Salesman dead in the eye. Not a sound was to be heard from the crowd, not the least rustle of a petticoat nor the slightest whisper of breath, till, suddenly, a cackling cracked the silence. One by one the other denizens of Infie Valley joined the Old Timer in laughter, and their laughter swelled into a flood that swept the Snake Oil Salesman clear into the next county. Word got around to the other Salesmen that Infie Valley wasn't a receptive market for Snake Oil. (Copyright 1999 Prembone. All rights reserved.) "For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without." -- Charge of the Star Goddess The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan Avalon's Reject http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan/avalons ###### From: "Freaksaus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Selling God: Burden of Proof Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:55:03 +0100 Organization: Hobby Computer Club News Network Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7vks2d$m9l$2@news.hccnet.nl> References: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: uds41-116.dial.hccnet.nl X-Trace: news.hccnet.nl 941486989 22837 193.173.116.41 (1 Nov 1999 20:09:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hccnet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Nov 1999 20:09:49 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news.hccnet.nl!not-for-mail Prembone schreef in berichtnieuws 381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net... May I ask from what story you made the parable, maybe I'll get it if I read that. He, I'm not into religious stuff what I'm guessing this is a parable of. Freek ###### From: inkliing@aol.com (Inkliing) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Selling God: Burden of Proof Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Nov 1999 23:14:55 GMT References: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991101181455.14480.00001008@ng-fm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail excellent parable, prembone nice angle. very much to the point when considering the whole 'evangelical christian' pitch. thanks for posting it. i enjoyed it. --from the star goddess formerly known as inkliing O.L. ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Selling God: Burden of Proof Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:53:14 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Nov 1 15:55:06 1999 References: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> <7vks2d$m9l$2@news.hccnet.nl> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-007mnminnp056.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 1 Nov 1999 23:48:47 GMT Message-ID: <381e277a.161282262@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:55:03 +0100, "Freaksaus" wrote: > >Prembone schreef in berichtnieuws >381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net... > > > >May I ask from what story you made the parable, maybe I'll get it if I read >that. I didn't make it from a story. As I said, I wrote it in response to people who were bombarding us with "evangelistic" attempts on the Internet Infidels discussion board. "Infie Valley" is a reference to the Infidels, if that helps. Otherwise, it's pretty self-explanatory: If you wanna sell me on a religious conversion, the burden of proof lies on you to prove that it's real and I need it, not on me to prove that it's not real and I don't need it. "Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan The Prembone Pages http://prembone.tsx.org ###### From: "Freaksaus" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Selling God: Burden of Proof Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:27:30 +0100 Organization: Hobby Computer Club News Network Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7vmba2$cj9$1@news.hccnet.nl> References: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> <7vks2d$m9l$2@news.hccnet.nl> <381e277a.161282262@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: uds1-116.dial.hccnet.nl X-Trace: news.hccnet.nl 941535362 12905 193.173.116.1 (2 Nov 1999 09:36:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hccnet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 09:36:02 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news.hccnet.nl!not-for-mail Prembone schreef in berichtnieuws 381e277a.161282262@news.earthlink.net... > > "Infie Valley" is a reference to the Infidels, if that helps. > > Otherwise, it's pretty self-explanatory: If you wanna sell me on a > religious conversion, the burden of proof lies on you to prove that > it's real and I need it, not on me to prove that it's not real and I > don't need it. Sorry, I misunderstood the word parable for parody?? SORRY!! Freek ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Selling God: Burden of Proof Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.62.22 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 941544083 212.151.62.22 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:01:23 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:01:23 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: unknown@d212-151-62-22.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:01:24 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Prembone hath written: >Here's a little parable I wrote for the Internet Infidels board when >we were experiencing a deluge of would-be evangelists. It seems [snip] > >THE PARABLE OF THE SNAKE OIL > >Once upon a time there was a happy place called Infie Valley. Oh, [snip] >Word got around to the other Salesmen that Infie Valley wasn't a >receptive market for Snake Oil. > > >(Copyright 1999 Prembone. All rights reserved.) This is an excellent parable of the atheistic position (which isn't mine, but never mind). :-) Öjevind ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Selling God: Burden of Proof Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:57:49 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Nov 2 19:55:07 1999 References: <381d7ce8.117609668@news.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001mnminnp156.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 3 Nov 1999 03:53:33 GMT Message-ID: <381fb282.262425447@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:01:24 +0100, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >This is an excellent parable of the atheistic position (which isn't mine, >but never mind). :-) Well, the details are atheistic, but the spirit of it fits anyone of a skeptical bent, atheistic or otherwise. Apply it to any snake oil being sold anywhere. ;-) And thankee for the compliments. "Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you're alive, it isn't." -- Richard Bach The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan The Prembone Pages http://prembone.tsx.org