Message-ID: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> From: Cletus the slack-jawed yokel Reply-To: william.truderung@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:26:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.224.100 X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 941217980 206.172.224.100 (Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:26:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:26:20 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news21.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Over the years, I have occasionally wondered (OK, daydreamed!) about the effects of a modern combat unit being somehow transported to Middle-Earth. On the one hand, their firepower would be overwhelming to the "natives." (There's a dragon coming? Break out a heat-seeking missile with armour-piercing warhead. No, one should be enough.) On the other hand, once their ammunition runs out, they would be effectively useless - it takes years to train properly on the sword or bow. So my question is this. What would be the smallest-sized modern conventionally armed combat unit (no nukes!) that could defeat any foe in Middle-Earth, up to and including Morgoth himself? ###### From: "Gary E. Masters" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:04:17 -0500 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 38 Message-ID: <381A0BD1.6F4201BF@tamiu.edu> References: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shra-ppp01.tamiu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 1999 21:06:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: william.truderung@sympatico.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!nntp.giganews.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Cletus the slack-jawed yokel wrote: > Over the years, I have occasionally wondered (OK, daydreamed!) about the > effects of a modern combat unit being somehow transported to > Middle-Earth. On the one hand, their firepower would be overwhelming to > the "natives." (There's a dragon coming? Break out a heat-seeking > missile with armour-piercing warhead. No, one should be enough.) On the > other hand, once their ammunition runs out, they would be effectively > useless - it takes years to train properly on the sword or bow. > > So my question is this. What would be the smallest-sized modern > conventionally armed combat unit (no nukes!) that could defeat any foe > in Middle-Earth, up to and including Morgoth himself? It has been a while, but I would take the First Infantry Division and be willing to be on the ground with them. Even against Morgoth. Just give me time to get my artillery in place and some air cover. I don't think that is the smallest, though. But if I were on the ground with them, who wants the smallest? How about a Special Forces unit with resupply (don't ask me how.) and let them train the others to do the job? They claim to be able to learn languages. I guess if I really had to get the smallest it would be a troop of armored cav. Regards, Gary Masters ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World From: rpresser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) References: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E6E9C627pt101594@10.4.0.21> User-Agent: Xnews/2.09.03 Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:29:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.75 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 941221772 151.204.202.75 (Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:29:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:29:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.william.truderung@sympatico.ca (Cletus the slack-jawed yokel).wrote.posted.offered: >Over the years, I have occasionally wondered (OK, daydreamed!) about the >effects of a modern combat unit being somehow transported to >Middle-Earth. On the one hand, their firepower would be overwhelming to >the "natives." (There's a dragon coming? Break out a heat-seeking >missile with armour-piercing warhead. No, one should be enough.) On the >other hand, once their ammunition runs out, they would be effectively >useless - it takes years to train properly on the sword or bow. > >So my question is this. What would be the smallest-sized modern >conventionally armed combat unit (no nukes!) that could defeat any foe >in Middle-Earth, up to and including Morgoth himself? Why would *any* combat unit composed of humans (and/or Elves, I guess) stand the remotest chance of defeating Melkor, the most puissant of all Ainu? -- Ross Presser ross_presser@imtek.com "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." ###### Message-ID: <381A098D.40AC@sympatico.ca> From: Cletus the slack-jawed yokel Reply-To: william.truderung@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World References: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> <8E6E9C627pt101594@10.4.0.21> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:00:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.224.68 X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 941230844 206.172.224.68 (Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:00:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:00:44 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.bellglobal.com.MISMATCH!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news21.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Ross Presser wrote: > > alt.distinguished.william.truderung@sympatico.ca (Cletus the slack-jawed > yokel).wrote.posted.offered: > >So my question is this. What would be the smallest-sized modern > >conventionally armed combat unit (no nukes!) that could defeat any foe > >in Middle-Earth, up to and including Morgoth himself? > > Why would *any* combat unit composed of humans (and/or Elves, I guess) > stand the remotest chance of defeating Melkor, the most puissant of all > Ainu? "Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands." "...and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolphin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond." "...but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face." "Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made." In his original form, Morgoth probably was effectively invulnerable to physical attack. However, by the time that the Eldar and Atani had appeared, he had squandered most of his power in the substance of Middle-Earth. "Morgoth's Ring" gives a much fuller explanation of this dissipation of his power. By the end of the First Age, Morgoth, while still extremely fearsome and deadly, could be killed. (as in fact he was, by the Valar) I would agree that no human and/or Elf of that time had any reasonable chance of doing so, but a modern soldier posesses weaponry that is FAR more powerful that Fingolphin's sword. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> <8E6E9C627pt101594@10.4.0.21> <381A098D.40AC@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:13:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.143 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941235238 195.178.166.143 (Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:13:58 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:13:58 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Cletus the slack-jawed yokel wrote > dissipation of his power. By the end of the First Age, Morgoth, while > still extremely fearsome and deadly, could be killed. (as in fact he > was, by the Valar) Hm, was he really? I was of the impression that he was merely banned from the confines of Arda. Really lame translation back into english follows... "But Morgoth was thrown out through the gate of the Night outside the walls of the world, out into the timeless void, and a guardian is at all times guarding those walls while Earendil is keeping watch from the skys of the heavens." Seems he's still alive somewhere out of reach. >I would agree that no human and/or Elf of that time > had any reasonable chance of doing so, but a modern soldier posesses > weaponry that is FAR more powerful that Fingolphin's sword. So, those weapons might kill his body. The spirit of the Ainur can't be killed. /Jonas ###### Message-ID: <381A2124.5027@sympatico.ca> From: Cletus the slack-jawed yokel Reply-To: william.truderung@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World References: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> <8E6E9C627pt101594@10.4.0.21> <381A098D.40AC@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:41:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.224.68 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 941236877 206.172.224.68 (Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:41:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:41:17 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nf1.mgmt.sympatico.ca!news1.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Jonas Thorell wrote: > > Cletus the slack-jawed yokel wrote > > > dissipation of his power. By the end of the First Age, Morgoth, while > > still extremely fearsome and deadly, could be killed. (as in fact he > > was, by the Valar) > > Hm, was he really? I was of the impression that he was merely banned from > the confines of Arda. > > Really lame translation back into english follows... > > "But Morgoth was thrown out through the gate of the Night outside the walls > of the world, out into the timeless void, and a guardian is at all times > guarding those walls while Earendil is keeping watch from the skys of the > heavens." > > Seems he's still alive somewhere out of reach. From "Myths Transformed" in Volume 10 of HoME, Morgoth's Ring: "Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blassed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwe and Namo) that, though had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. This should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether: but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda." I read this (late) passage to mean that he was in fact killed, but that his powerless shade still existed in some manner, in the same way that the shades of Men existed after death. ###### From: kungmingtao@mindspring.com (D. Henderson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Today's Soldiers in Tolkien's World Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:11:04 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 48 Message-ID: <381b2932.2558925@news.mindspring.com> References: <3819D74D.2FA9@sympatico.ca> <381A0BD1.6F4201BF@tamiu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.17.13 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 29 Oct 1999 23:13:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.axxsys.net!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:04:17 -0500, "Gary E. Masters" wrote: >< >< >< ><> Over the years, I have occasionally wondered (OK, daydreamed!) about the ><> effects of a modern combat unit being somehow transported to ><> Middle-Earth. On the one hand, their firepower would be overwhelming to ><> the "natives." (There's a dragon coming? Break out a heat-seeking ><> missile with armour-piercing warhead. No, one should be enough.) On the ><> other hand, once their ammunition runs out, they would be effectively ><> useless - it takes years to train properly on the sword or bow. ><> ><> So my question is this. What would be the smallest-sized modern ><> conventionally armed combat unit (no nukes!) that could defeat any foe ><> in Middle-Earth, up to and including Morgoth himself? >< >