From: "Angela P Jones" Subject: Question about other products Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 NNTP-Posting-Host: elkppp82.dpnet.net Date: 27 Oct 1999 15:46:48 -0500 X-Trace: 27 Oct 1999 15:46:48 -0500, elkppp82.dpnet.net Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.hrz.uni-kassel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.82.12!newsrouter.icnc.com!smartdna!news.dpnet.net!elkppp82.dpnet.net Okay I have been a fan of Middle Earth for about 6 years now, but just started reading the books. Previously I played Lord of the Rings RPG and Lord of the Rings computer games. Now I've noticed more then once people here bashing those things, for various reasons. My question is why do people dislike them so much? I mean if it weren't for them I wouldn't have started reading the books, and buying posters, clocks, and other Middle Earth products that have become my hobby. I really don't play the computer game anymore and rarely plat the Role Playing game, but they still bring new people to this world everyday. Thanks for listening. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 07:21:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.92 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941181731 209.181.118.92 (Fri, 29 Oct 1999 02:22:11 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 02:22:11 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.cs.utwente.nl!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default>, "Angela P Jones" wrote: >Okay I have been a fan of Middle Earth for about 6 years now, but just >started reading the books. Previously I played Lord of the Rings RPG and >Lord of the Rings computer games. Now I've noticed more then once people >here bashing those things, for various reasons. My question is why do >people dislike them so much? I mean if it weren't for them I wouldn't have >started reading the books, and buying posters, clocks, and other Middle >Earth products that have become my hobby. I really don't play the computer >game anymore and rarely plat the Role Playing game, but they still bring >new people to this world everyday. Thanks for listening. Some people who have posted about those products here in the groups loved them. The bashers just seem to have more tenacity. If you like the stuff, don't feel like you have to defend your tastes. Enjoy what you collect and collect what you enjoy. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:36:17 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7vcfhq$9br$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.130 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 941212026 9595 12.79.24.130 (29 Oct 1999 15:47:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 1999 15:47:06 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!attbtf!ip.att.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Angela P Jones wrote in message news:01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default... > My question is why do people dislike them so much? I mean if it > weren't for them I wouldn't have started reading the books, and > buying posters, clocks, and other Middle Earth products that have > become my hobby. I really don't play the computer game anymore and > rarely plat the Role Playing game, but they still bring new people > to this world everyday. Thanks for listening. When these things come up it is often suggested that 'spin-offs' might attract new people to the books - however, this is generally countered with the view that they introduce 'incorrect' concepts into the world of Middle Earth. Some adaptations and spin-offs are better than others - the radio renditions are usually given a fair amount of praise. The MERP RPG is widely disliked because it goes a long way in embellishing on Tolkien's world and contradicts it in a number of places. We regularly get people who think the ICE names and backgrounds for the nine Nazgul are 'canonical'. So, yes there are good points to having all these disparate 'Middle Earth' items, but there are also negatives. These newsgroups tend to be populated by fans who started with the books and as such the negatives probably get more emphasis. ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 65 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 29 Oct 1999 16:45:41 GMT References: <7vcfhq$9br$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >When these things come up it is often suggested that 'spin-offs' >might attract new people to the books - however, this is generally >countered with the view that they introduce 'incorrect' concepts >into the world of Middle Earth. Some adaptations and spin-offs are >better than others - the radio renditions are usually given a fair >amount of praise. Presumably this is on account of their faithfulness to the books. > The MERP RPG is widely disliked because it goes >a long way in embellishing on Tolkien's world and contradicts it in >a number of places. This is, of course, the very essence of rpg's, and a very silly reason for rejecting and disliking them. If the game master wishes to run an adventure in which the players invade Dol Goldur, he will have to have alot more information about Dol Goldur than Tolkien's writings ever revealed. If one or more Nazgul guard the place, it will be helpful to know their names. If Tolkien fails to provide this information, he will have to look to rpg source materials, and what he cannot find in either he will have to make up himself. >We regularly get people who think the ICE names >and backgrounds for the nine Nazgul are 'canonical'. Well, they are after all part of the ICE "canon". However I have always regarded it as silly to regard anything about RPGs as in any way obligatory. In an RPG, it is always the job of the Game Master to create a believable environment for his players. The idea behind MERP is that these world the GM creates will be based to some extent on 1) Tolkien, and 2) the rules and background provided by ICE. However, each GM creates his own world, which will always contradict the world created by any other MERP GM. Each GM is the final arbiter of reality within his own role-playing world, and is free to contradict both Tolkien and ICE source materials at any point he chooses. All this material are only potentially useful guidelines to be accepted or rejected as one chooses. A Game Master is, for instance, perfectly free to reject a bit of ICE data that is (in his interpretation) unfaithful to Tolkien, if faithfulness is what matters to him. Also, if he knows his players have read the source materials, and wants to surprise them, he is free to change around any information the player's characters should not legitimately know yet, in order to maintain the suspense and uncertainty. >So, yes there are good points to having all these disparate 'Middle >Earth' items, but there are also negatives. I can't see any. Arguably, RPGers should stop wasting their time on involving time-consuming games, and go get a life, but the same could be said of people who spend alot of time posting on newsgroups. >These newsgroups tend >to be populated by fans who started with the books and as such the >negatives probably get more emphasis. RPG players should not try to impose RPG data on others, especially if the others don't play the RPG (but also even if they do). The only one entitled to impose anything on anybody is the Game Master with respect to his own players. Apart from that, I can see no "negative" aspects to the creative embelishements of the RPG, except maybe when compared to the superior creative embelishements of a hypothetical superior Middle-Earth-based RPG. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:21:39 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 34 Message-ID: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vcfhq$9br$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm1.news.cs.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.29.103 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 941247152 22851 12.79.29.103 (30 Oct 1999 01:32:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 1999 01:32:32 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Nystulc wrote in message news:19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm1.news.cs.com... > This is, of course, the very essence of rpg's, and a very silly > reason for rejecting and disliking them. Really? Well, let's see; > If the game master wishes to run an adventure in which the players > invade Dol Goldur, he will have to have alot more information > about Dol Goldur than Tolkien's writings ever revealed. Absolutely true. However, is there any particular reason that it should house a great spider descendant of Ungoliant in defiance of JRRT's statement that Shelob was the last? Is there any reason that this spider should be the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders when JRRT says that it was Shelob? And finally - is there any reason that this great spider should be filled with woe, at the loss of her precious baby spiders going out into the forest without her, in defiance of everything known about spiders within our world and Tolkien's own? ICE adding things to flesh out details would be acceptable, the fact that they regularly rewrite and drastically alter the world as JRRT described it is rather annoying. Gothmog of Minas Morgul was a half troll? Mordor was simply crawling with dragons? Morgoth had children? The mother of those children was one of the 'evil elves'? Remaining remotely faithful to the stories Tolkien wrote would essentially require completely rewriting nearly everything ICE ever did. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 02:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 24 Message-ID: <13284-381A9756-77@storefull-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRjezJfAaTZpvcMbJPxOvGaDkg/tgIUVrzvlpOdIY03hYTWsm77OUVRzkM= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Angela P. Jones wrote: >I have been a fan of Middle Earth for >about 6 years now, but just started >reading the books. Previously I played >Lord of the Rings RPG and Lord of the >Rings computer games. Now I've noticed >more then once people here bashing >those things, for various reasons. My >question is why do people dislike them >so much? It has to do with the very disparate nature of this group. Everyone likes Tolkien, but they approach it in different ways. There are fantasy fans (which includes its share of gamers), like myself who simply likes the story itself, and there are those who prefer more literary discussions. The anti-gamers dislike the games for the same reason the anti-film people hate the movie: they don't like seeing things that conflict with what they think ME should be. I have no problem with the games myself, but I don't consider them to be official reference material. --Dave ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <9uxS3.21808$5P2.29135@wards> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:50:15 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.166.138.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: wards 941270021 195.166.138.78 (Sat, 30 Oct 1999 07:53:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 07:53:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!landlord!wards.POSTED!not-for-mail Angela P Jones wrote in message <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default>... >Okay I have been a fan of Middle Earth for about 6 years now, but just >started reading the books. Previously I played Lord of the Rings RPG and >Lord of the Rings computer games. Now I've noticed more then once people >here bashing those things, for various reasons. My question is why do >people dislike them so much? I mean if it weren't for them I wouldn't have >started reading the books, and buying posters, clocks, and other Middle >Earth products that have become my hobby. I really don't play the computer >game anymore and rarely plat the Role Playing game, but they still bring >new people to this world everyday. Thanks for listening. As a general comment rather than a specific reply, there are many sorts of "other products" out there. At one extreme we have philological works by JRRT, photos of him, audio or video tapes of him. There are books about him. There are tapes and CDs produced by others that are inspired by his works. There are RPGs and computer games. There are clothes, jigsaws, badges, posters, figures ... My point, I think, is that there is a whole heterogeneous spectrum of "other products" out there. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net ###### From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 123 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 30 Oct 1999 08:57:57 GMT References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) Message-ID: <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >Nystulc wrote in message >news:19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm1.news.cs.com... > >> This is, of course, the very essence of rpg's, and a very silly >> reason for rejecting and disliking them. > >Really? Well, let's see; Yes, really. >contains 'spoilers'> > >> If the game master wishes to run an adventure in which the players >> invade Dol Goldur, he will have to have alot more information >> about Dol Goldur than Tolkien's writings ever revealed. > >Absolutely true. However, is there any particular reason that it >should house a great spider descendant of Ungoliant in defiance of >JRRT's statement that Shelob was the last? Is there any reason that >this spider should be the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders when JRRT >says that it was Shelob? And finally - is there any reason that >this great spider should be filled with woe, at the loss of her >precious baby spiders going out into the forest without her, in >defiance of everything known about spiders within our world and >Tolkien's own? Your objections have so many holes that I scarcely know where to begin. Tolkien himself would be appalled by your lack of imagination. 1) Shelob was not the last descendent of Ungoliant. She was the last "child" of Ungoliant, the last direct offspring. The evil spiders of Mirkwood (and presumably many other places as well), are also descendents of Ungoliant, presumably getting smaller and lesser as they become more removed from Ungoliant.. 2) The Red Book might well be wrong about Shelob being the last. What do silly Hobbits know anyway? 3) If the Spider in Dol Guldur were a descendent of Shelob, then she would also be a descendent of Ungoliant. Her children in Mirkwood would be descendents of Shelob as well. 4) The Dol Guldur spider's mates might well be descendents of Shelob. In this case, her children would be descended from Shelob, even if she was not. 5) Even if ICE's Great Spider of Dol Guldur were in fact a direct child of Ungoliant, keep in mind the following: Any RPG adventure in Dol Guldur will likely take place much earlier in time than the events in Two Towers. Monsters tent to get killed in the course of adventures. There is no necessary contradiction with the statement that Shelob was last. 6) Tolkien says that Shelob's descendents spread to Mirkwood. He never says that all of the spiders in Mirkwood were Shelob's decendents, or that there were no descendents of any other of Ungoliant's children living there. 7) Tolkien does not tell us alot about Spiders, certainly not enough to demonstrate that no spider in history ever got upset about the loss of her children. He only described one Spider in any detail. The ICE Spider was not invented by Tolkien, but by someone else. Surely it is reasonable to allow that creator some creative lattitude in describing her personality. Tolkien never said that all spiders are the same. 8) If you don't like the bit about "woe", leave it out. As GM, you are free to do whatever the fuck you want. 9) The RPG events do not have to mimic those that occurred in Tolkien. This is because it is up to the players to determine the outcome of events. If players adventuring earlier in the Third Age decide to climb up Cirith Ungol and kill Shelob, then the events at the end of Two Towers will never occur. If they fail to kill some other Child of Ungoliant, then someone else will be the last. Think of it as an alternate timeline if you must. If this bothers you, then I'm sure you would be totally outraged by some of the stuff that goes on during the course of a typical Middle Earth card game. Why, sometimes it is Saruman that ends up saving Middle Earth, while Gandalf becomes corrupt. Bottom line is that its JUST A GAME. 10) In an RPG, it is necessary to come up with varied and challenging monsters and opponents to challenge your players. The idea is to keep them entertained... to HAVE FUN. Keeping the result strictly loyal to Tolkien is a secondary consideration...a very distant second. Even if Tolkien had said that there were no other Great Spiders in Middle Earth in the Third Age (which he totally did not say), it would still be a good idea to contradict him if you think your players will enjoy battling a Shelob-style monster. 11) The purpose of RPGs is to help the Game Master create his own fantasy adventure world. MERP helps him create a fantasy world that is BASED on Tolkien. Still, it is the Game-Masters world, not Tolkien's, and the GM is, as always, the final arbiter of reality within his particular world. Is some annoying Orc of a player starts to object that the GM is not being faithful to Tolkien, the GM can, and should, ensure that that player's character gets captured and slowly eaten (starting at the toes) by twelve of Shelob's bigger, meaner sisters, while he screams "NOT FAIR, SHELOB WAS THE LAST." >ICE adding things to flesh out details would be acceptable, the fact >that they regularly rewrite and drastically alter the world as JRRT >described it is rather annoying. Gothmog of Minas Morgul was a >half troll? Why the hell not? > Mordor was simply crawling with dragons? What do you have against dragons in Mordor? Mordor was an aweful big place. >Morgoth had children? Why not? >The mother of those children was one of the 'evil elves'? Sounds good to me. >Remaining remotely faithful to the stories Tolkien wrote would >essentially require completely rewriting nearly everything ICE ever >did. God, what a wet blanket you are! Those folks at ICE are having more fun with Tolkien's universe than you ever will. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:09:13 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 132 Message-ID: <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.248 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 941305027 18725 12.79.28.248 (30 Oct 1999 17:37:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 1999 17:37:07 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Nystulc wrote in message news:19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com... > Tolkien himself would be appalled by your lack of imagination. Please don't pretend to speak for Tolkien. > 1) Shelob was not the last descendent of Ungoliant. Great. I never said she was. > She was the last "child" of Ungoliant, the last direct offspring. That's one possible interpretation of the text. It might also mean that Shelob was the last 'true heir' in the sense of being of great size and power. Either way the Dol Guldur spider contradicts JRRT. For the record JRRT elsewhere cites the 'last child' reference as the evidence for saying that Shelob was descended from the giant spiders of Nandungorthin - not Ungoliant herself and hence the view of 'last child' meaning last giant spider. > 2) The Red Book might well be wrong about Shelob being the last. > What do silly Hobbits know anyway? Ah. Well, going this way we can ignore ANYTHING in the books and say that it wasn't correct. However, leaving aside the story internal device that the books were written by hobbits rather than JRRT this is something provided by 'the narrator' and thus generally held to be true. And as noted above, JRRT validated this passage in one of his letters outside the actual text of the story. > 3) If the Spider in Dol Guldur were a descendent of Shelob, then > she would also be a descendent of Ungoliant. Her children in > Mirkwood would be descendents of Shelob as well. Quite true. However, if I recall correctly the ICE spider in Dol Guldur was NOT a descendant of Shelob. > 6) Tolkien says that Shelob's descendents spread to Mirkwood. He > never says that all of the spiders in Mirkwood were Shelob's > decendents Actually, he did... or rather referred to her as the 'dam' of the Mirkwood spiders. > 7) Tolkien does not tell us alot about Spiders, certainly not > enough to demonstrate that no spider in history ever got upset > about the loss of her children. He only described one Spider in > any detail. Ungoliant, Shelob, and the Mirkwood spiders in The Hobbit are more than "one". Two of those specifically ATE their own offspring. > As GM, you are free to do whatever the fuck you want. Thanks for the needless profanity. Yes, it is quite true that someone can alter what ICE wrote - I said so in the post you are responding too. However, that is fairly irrelevant to my point that what ICE wrote was not particularly faithful to JRRT's world. > 10) In an RPG, it is necessary to come up with varied and > challenging monsters and opponents to challenge your players. The > idea is to keep them entertained... to HAVE FUN. Keeping the > result strictly loyal to Tolkien is a secondary consideration...a > very distant second. Ah! I'd agree that this was the attitude that the ICE authors seem to have taken, but personally I disagree with this viewpoint. It is perfectly possible to 'have fun' while remaining 'strictly loyal' to the source material. > Even if Tolkien had said that there were no other Great Spiders in > Middle Earth in the Third Age (which he totally did not say) Actually, as explained above, he did. > it would still be a good idea to contradict him if you think your > players will enjoy battling a Shelob-style monster. Again, I disagree. If you must contradict the author to make the game fun then either the world wasn't very good (yeah right) or you aren't very creative. An occasional adjustment (even a giant spider in Dol Guldur) might be reasonable if kept within the spirit of the stories... but what ICE did was wholescale and seemingly pointless alteration. They bought the roleplaying game rights to Middle Earth, but the actual game they created could have been set in a completely different world... I suppose that's my biggest problem with MERP, they seem to have been interested only in using the name rather than making a game designed to fit the setting. >> Gothmog of Minas Morgul was a half troll? > Why the hell not? >> Mordor was simply crawling with dragons? > What do you have against dragons in Mordor? Mordor was an aweful > big place. I suppose my objection to these isn't so much that they contradict JRRT as that they contradict COMMON SENSE. Trolls are stupid. They do not lead troops and make decisions on strategy anywhere in the stories. Dragons were devastating forces, just ONE of them could have a major impact on a war - yet Sauron never employed any in his battles, ergo Sauron was either a blithering idiot or >he had no dragons<.... let alone the many unusual varieties ICE ascribes to his forces. >> Morgoth had children? > Why not? Because JRRT wrote that he couldn't. >> The mother of those children was one of the 'evil elves'? > Sounds good to me. Despite the fact that this race was never encountered in the stories of lands where they supposedly lived? > God, what a wet blanket you are! Thanks for dragging the discussion down to the level of personal insult. Really makes your case. > Those folks at ICE are having more fun with Tolkien's universe > than you ever will. No... they are having (or WERE having - they went under) fun with a universe which is in some ways LIKE Tolkien's. I have plenty of fun with Tolkien's ACTUAL universe - including having been GM for two very well received RPG campaigns set within it. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:45:14 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7vfbfo$m1i$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vcfhq$9br$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm <7vf591$7pi$1@news.asu.edu> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.248 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 941306168 22578 12.79.28.248 (30 Oct 1999 17:56:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Oct 1999 17:56:08 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnslave2!wnmaster1!not-for-mail CHUCK BRAMLET wrote in message news:7vf591$7pi$1@news.asu.edu... > Conrad, where is this stated? I've never before heard that Shelob > was the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders, though I had some > suspicion that they were decendants of Ungoliant. Just curious. "Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood." TT, Shelob's Lair "Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only in her eyes; not as the lesser breeds of Mirkwood was their dam..." War of the Ring, Kirith Ungol - pg. 217 HM ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: 30 Oct 1999 16:10:09 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7vf591$7pi$1@news.asu.edu> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vcfhq$9br$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!CS.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net ("Conrad Dunkerson") says: >Absolutely true. However, is there any particular reason that it >should house a great spider descendant of Ungoliant in defiance of >JRRT's statement that Shelob was the last? Is there any reason that >this spider should be the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders when JRRT >says that it was Shelob? Conrad, where is this stated? I've never before heard that Shelob was the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders, though I had some suspicion that they were decendants of Ungoliant. Just curious. -- ###### From: "Nob" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vcfhq$9br$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991029124541.24120.00000052@ng-cm <7vf591$7pi$1@news.asu.edu> Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:23:18 +0100 Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 NNTP-Posting-Host: userbq79.netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: <381b1b77@plato.netscapeonline.co.uk> X-Trace: 30 Oct 1999 17:23:19 GMT, userbq79.netscapeonline.co.uk X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!userbq79.netscapeonline.co.uk CHUCK BRAMLET wrote in message news:7vf591$7pi$1@news.asu.edu... > > In a previous article, conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net ("Conrad Dunkerson") says: > > >Absolutely true. However, is there any particular reason that it > >should house a great spider descendant of Ungoliant in defiance of > >JRRT's statement that Shelob was the last? Is there any reason that > >this spider should be the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders when JRRT > >says that it was Shelob? > > Conrad, where is this stated? I've never before heard that Shelob > was the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders, though I had some suspicion > that they were decendants of Ungoliant. Just curious. The mirkwood spiders are the bastard offspring of Shelob who in turn is descended from Ungoliante. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:12:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.222 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941314370 195.178.166.222 (Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:12:50 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:12:50 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> What do you have against dragons in Mordor? Mordor was an aweful >> big place. > I suppose my objection to these isn't so much that they contradict > JRRT as that they contradict COMMON SENSE. Trolls are stupid. They > do not lead troops and make decisions on strategy anywhere in the > stories. Dragons were devastating forces, just ONE of them could > have a major impact on a war - yet Sauron never employed any in his > battles, ergo Sauron was either a blithering idiot or >he had no > dragons<.... let alone the many unusual varieties ICE ascribes to > his forces. I don't know where I read this but I recall something Gandalf said after the ring-war regarding that. It went along the lines that it was good fortune indeed that Thorin, Balin and what have you went on their trip regardless of the one rings fortunate reappearance since it also meant the death of the last dragon. Speaking of which...how did Morgoth create the dragons? He couldn't create life on his own could he? The Orcs mocked the elves and the trolls mocked the Ents. The Balrogs were Maiar so not of his creation. Where did the dragons come from? /Jonas ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:01:29 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.181 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 941382746 12843 12.79.56.181 (31 Oct 1999 15:12:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Oct 1999 15:12:26 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Jonas Thorell wrote in message news:6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se... > I don't know where I read this but I recall something Gandalf said > after the ring-war regarding that. It went along the lines that it > was good fortune indeed that Thorin, Balin and what have you went > on their trip regardless of the one rings fortunate reappearance > since it also meant the death of the last dragon. Quest of Erebor, Unfinished Tales. However, JRRT says elsewhere that Smaug was not the last. Apparently just the last in the vicinity and/or the greatest of those left. > Speaking of which...how did Morgoth create the dragons? This is one of those mysteries for which we have almost NO speculation or evidence from JRRT. I've generally supposed that they might be descended from some of the ancient creatures twisted by Morgoth which Orome hunted in the time before the awakening of the Elves (the Nazgul steeds were apparently descendants of these ancient creatures as well). However, Dragons were intelligent and magically powerful - as such I'd suspect that they had to have some sort of Ainur element as well. Morgoth was said to have 'fed from his own hand' Glaurung and Ancalagon (as he also did Carcharoth), which might be taken to mean that he enhanced them with his own power. Final analysis, we really have no idea - but guesses can be made. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: 01 Nov 1999 00:01:26 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 17 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6upuxvuoc9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: > > Jonas Thorell wrote in message > > Speaking of which...how did Morgoth create the dragons? > > ancient creatures as well). However, Dragons were intelligent and > magically powerful - as such I'd suspect that they had to have some > sort of Ainur element as well. Morgoth was said to have 'fed from I have always assumed them to be perverted maiar, like the balrogs. Seems to me to have been the most powerfull material available to Melkor/Morgoth. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:34:43 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7vikb8$de7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.80 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 941413544 13767 12.79.28.80 (31 Oct 1999 23:45:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Oct 1999 23:45:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Jonas Thorell wrote in message news:gm4T3.1198$Y4.25652@dummy.bahnhof.se... > Have you learned every tale by heart... Heh, no not really. There is still alot of stuff in HoME and Letters which I have to search around for. > Okay, then. Where were the others and why didn't Sauron use them? Good questions. I'd guess that they were still way up north in the 'Withered Heath' region - out of reach unless Sauron left things unattended and went up there to search them out. Seems unlikely that he could send a Nazgul... they weren't big on fire. > But according to some texts, some ancient creatures were older > than Sauron. How can that be since he was a Maia and thus were > around before the world itself? This has always been a conundrum. The typical explanation is that they are 'older than Sauron' in the sense of having been within the world longer than he has. Other than that possible explanation it doesn't seem possible for them to be 'older' in any sense. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 58 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:34:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.153 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941412876 195.178.166.153 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 00:34:36 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 00:34:36 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> I don't know where I read this but I recall something Gandalf said >> after the ring-war regarding that. It went along the lines that it >> was good fortune indeed that Thorin, Balin and what have you went >> on their trip regardless of the one rings fortunate reappearance >> since it also meant the death of the last dragon. > Quest of Erebor, Unfinished Tales. Have you learned every tale by heart...still, glad to know it wasn't only my mind playing tricks on me. > However, JRRT says elsewhere > that Smaug was not the last. Apparently just the last in the > vicinity and/or the greatest of those left. Okay, then. Where were the others and why didn't Sauron use them? If nothing else, one should have been sufficient as a great watchdog at the entrance of Orodruin. But he never did use dragons, did he? Not even in the war where Gil-Galad and Elendil were slain. There must be a reason for it somewhere although I cannot see it. >> Speaking of which...how did Morgoth create the dragons? > This is one of those mysteries for which we have almost NO > speculation or evidence from JRRT. I've generally supposed that > they might be descended from some of the ancient creatures twisted > by Morgoth which Orome hunted in the time before the awakening of > the Elves (the Nazgul steeds were apparently descendants of these > ancient creatures as well). Well, that's a possibility and a plausible one I think. But according to some texts, some ancient creatures were older than Sauron. How can that be since he was a Maia and thus were around before the world itself? > However, Dragons were intelligent and > magically powerful - as such I'd suspect that they had to have some > sort of Ainur element as well. For the magic part, I agree. > Morgoth was said to have 'fed from > his own hand' Glaurung and Ancalagon (as he also did Carcharoth), > which might be taken to mean that he enhanced them with his own > power. Unless they were not descendants from those ancients creatures but the very same creatures and Morgoth just "tamed" them and did some genetic engineering on them to make them more powerful. /Jonas ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vikb8$de7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 01:38:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.226 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941420304 195.178.166.226 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 02:38:24 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 02:38:24 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> Have you learned every tale by heart... > Heh, no not really. There is still alot of stuff in HoME and > Letters which I have to search around for. Could have fooled me. Several others here too seems to know just about every bit... > > Okay, then. Where were the others and why didn't Sauron use them? > Good questions. I'd guess that they were still way up north in the > 'Withered Heath' region - Is that the region where Angband was located? I actually have a hard time getting a clear picture in my mind where that would be. > out of reach unless Sauron left things unattended and went up there to >search them out. Or: 1. They all persihed between Bilbo's return home and Frodo's departure 2. They were being used, but far off from the Fellowship. >Seems unlikely that he could send a Nazgul... they weren't big on fire. They weren't but wouldn't one servant of the dark powers sense another and thusly avoid using the fire on them? Come to think of an amusing computer-game from some years ago in which there was a dragon that was afraid of fire... >> But according to some texts, some ancient creatures were older >> than Sauron. How can that be since he was a Maia and thus were >> around before the world itself? > This has always been a conundrum. The typical explanation is that > they are 'older than Sauron' in the sense of having been within the > world longer than he has. Other than that possible explanation it > doesn't seem possible for them to be 'older' in any sense. I find that explanation rather unsatisfactory since I seem to recall that both Valar and Maiar entered the world when it was practically empty, i.e. no life. /Jonas ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 71 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 01:40:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.220 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941420461 207.224.149.220 (Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:41:01 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:41:01 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com>, nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote: >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >>> If the game master wishes to run an adventure in which the players >>> invade Dol Goldur, he will have to have alot more information >>> about Dol Goldur than Tolkien's writings ever revealed. >> >>Absolutely true. However, is there any particular reason that it >>should house a great spider descendant of Ungoliant in defiance of >>JRRT's statement that Shelob was the last? Is there any reason that >>this spider should be the ancestor of the Mirkwood spiders when JRRT >>says that it was Shelob? And finally - is there any reason that >>this great spider should be filled with woe, at the loss of her >>precious baby spiders going out into the forest without her, in >>defiance of everything known about spiders within our world and >>Tolkien's own? > >Your objections have so many holes that I scarcely know where to begin. >Tolkien himself would be appalled by your lack of imagination. > >1) Shelob was not the last descendent of Ungoliant. She was the last "child" >of Ungoliant, the last direct offspring. The evil spiders of Mirkwood (and >presumably many other places as well), are also descendents of Ungoliant, >presumably getting smaller and lesser as they become more removed from >Ungoliant.. The spiders of Mirkwood were Shelob's offspring, according to "Shelob's Lair" in THE TWO TOWERS, which also states her broods spread to Dol Guldur itself. So there is absolutely no reason to suppose there are no giant spiders in Dol Guldur. And all Shelob's descendants were descendants of Ungoliant, but it does not follow that all giant spiders in the Third Age were Ungoliant's descendants, unless the breeds had become completely mingled. >>ICE adding things to flesh out details would be acceptable, the fact >>that they regularly rewrite and drastically alter the world as JRRT >>described it is rather annoying. Gothmog of Minas Morgul was a >>half troll? > >Why the hell not? There is no reason for Gothmog of Minas Morgul not to be anything, except a Balrog. He doesn't appear to have been a Balrog. >> Mordor was simply crawling with dragons? > >What do you have against dragons in Mordor? Mordor was an aweful big place. There probably should not have been dragons in Mordor. Tolkien states they fled to the Withered Heath. >>Morgoth had children? > >Why not? An earlier conception of Morgoth had children, but Tolkien abandoned this notion in the 1930s. >>Remaining remotely faithful to the stories Tolkien wrote would >>essentially require completely rewriting nearly everything ICE ever >>did. > >God, what a wet blanket you are! Those folks at ICE are having more fun with >Tolkien's universe than you ever will. Not any more they aren't, but others are unofficially carrying on the legacy. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 01:42:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.220 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941420605 207.224.149.220 (Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:43:25 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:43:25 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: >Okay, then. Where were the others and why didn't Sauron use them? >If nothing else, one should have been sufficient as a great watchdog >at the entrance of Orodruin. But he never did use dragons, did he? >Not even in the war where Gil-Galad and Elendil were slain. >There must be a reason for it somewhere although I cannot see it. We don't know whether Sauron made use of dragons in the Second Age. There is no credible reason for assuming he did not. >Well, that's a possibility and a plausible one I think. But according to >some texts, some ancient creatures were older than Sauron. How can that >be since he was a Maia and thus were around before the world itself? Consider Obi-Wan Kenobi's explanation to Luke of his statement that Darth Vader murdered Anakin Skywalker. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 04:14:34 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5557-381D59FA-104@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAi6THTdRst//weGOaIt9TXvMypy0CFQC87+zFfrHjVRYm8D1jMIY5K0k9nQ== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!carrier1.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.he.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >An earlier conception of Morgoth had >children, but Tolkien abandoned this >notion in the 1930s. It seems that ICE probably used a lot of material that was presented in the earlier volumes of HoME to fill in the gaps in ME lore. The only problem with this is that the material in HoME I-V comes before the material from X-XII. In many cases, Tolkien changed his mind on many earlier things, and the later volumes probably more accurately reflect his view of ME before he died. I don't think ICE probably made much use of any of those volumes, especially PoME, which probably contains a lot of good information for a GM who wants to run a ME based campaign. --Dave ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:10:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.170 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941461852 195.178.166.170 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:10:52 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 14:10:52 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > We don't know whether Sauron made use of dragons in the Second Age. There > is no credible reason for assuming he did not. Apart from the little detail that no one has heard of it. Using Middle-earths equivalent to nuclear weapons would be noted I think. Not that I say that dragons are as powerful as nukes, just that both are the most powerful weapon in existance at their respective time. >>Well, that's a possibility and a plausible one I think. But according to >>some texts, some ancient creatures were older than Sauron. How can that >>be since he was a Maia and thus were around before the world itself? > Consider Obi-Wan Kenobi's explanation to Luke of his statement that Darth > Vader murdered Anakin Skywalker. "What I told you was true, from a certain point of view". Please tell me from what point of view anyone apart from Illuvatar could be considered older than Sauron. I'd really like to know. /Jonas ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <5557-381D59FA-104@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 26 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:22:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941480614 207.224.147.131 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:23:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:23:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article <5557-381D59FA-104@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >>An earlier conception of Morgoth had >>children, but Tolkien abandoned this >>notion in the 1930s. > >It seems that ICE probably used a lot of material that was presented in >the earlier volumes of HoME to fill in the gaps in ME lore. The only >problem with this is that the material in HoME I-V comes before the >material from X-XII. In many cases, Tolkien changed his mind on many >earlier things, and the later volumes probably more accurately reflect >his view of ME before he died. I don't think ICE probably made much use >of any of those volumes, especially PoME, which probably contains a lot >of good information for a GM who wants to run a ME based campaign. That is my feeling as well. But MERP is a gaming system, not a Tolkien research project. Every MERP module I ever read said people who wanted to know all things Tolkien needed to read the Tolkien books. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 55 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:28:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.131 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941480951 207.224.147.131 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:29:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:29:11 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: > >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> We don't know whether Sauron made use of dragons in the Second Age. There >> is no credible reason for assuming he did not. > >Apart from the little detail that no one has heard of it... That is not a credible reason for making assumptions. >...Using Middle-earths equivalent to nuclear weapons would be noted >I think. Not that I say that dragons are as powerful as nukes, >just that both are the most powerful weapon in existance at >their respective time. Dragons were not that effective. Glaurung accomplished all that he did at the head of large armies. Smaug took out one Dwarven kingdom and one Mannish town. Neither was the size of London as best we can determine, and many people survived his attack. On the other hand, most of the accounts of dragon deaths indicate one individual slew them: Turin slew Glaurung, Fram slew Scatha, Bard slew Smaug. We don't know the details of the deaths of dragons in Gondolin and the War of Wrath (did Earendil kill Ancalagon by himself, or did one or more great eagles help him?). If one individual can withstand and kill a dragon, then it's plausible that an army can stand up to it if sufficiently prepared for the prospect. Certainly the Dwarves of Belegost were able to face Glaurung's fire without any problem. >>>Well, that's a possibility and a plausible one I think. But according to >>>some texts, some ancient creatures were older than Sauron. How can that >>>be since he was a Maia and thus were around before the world itself? > >> Consider Obi-Wan Kenobi's explanation to Luke of his statement that Darth >> Vader murdered Anakin Skywalker. > >"What I told you was true, from a certain point of view". Please tell me >from what point of view anyone apart from Illuvatar could be considered >older than Sauron. I'd really like to know. Suppose Gandalf was thinking only of the corrupted servant of Morgoth, who remained faithful to Aule for some time after helping with the construction of Arda? On the day he gave his allegiance to Melkor, the old Aulendil (or whatever) died and Sauron was born. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 19:25:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.19 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941484341 195.178.166.19 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:25:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:25:41 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >>> We don't know whether Sauron made use of dragons in the Second Age. >>> There is no credible reason for assuming he did not. > >Apart from the little detail that no one has heard of it... > That is not a credible reason for making assumptions. It is just as valid as your statement above. Nothing as far as I know speak of anything regarding the dragons history in the Second Age, so my assumption is as valid as yours. When we don't know or have no proof either way, assumptions and speculation is all we have. > Dragons were not that effective. Glaurung accomplished all that he did at > the head of large armies. Smaug took out one Dwarven kingdom and one > Mannish town. Neither was the size of London as best we can determine, > and many people survived his attack. All true, but I didn't say they were as effective as the average nuclear war-head either. Just that they were the most effective weapon at the time, except for Morgoth in the First Age and later Sauron. Possibly the Balrogs were more deadly though. Or is it any weapon, alive or otherwise, that I'm forgetting here? >>"What I told you was true, from a certain point of view". Please tell me >>from what point of view anyone apart from Illuvatar could be considered >>older than Sauron. I'd really like to know. > Suppose Gandalf was thinking only of the corrupted servant of Morgoth, who > remained faithful to Aule for some time after helping with the > construction of Arda? > On the day he gave his allegiance to Melkor, the old Aulendil (or > whatever) died and Sauron was born. You could interprete it that way but I suspect that Gandalf wouldn't. Just a gut-feeling but Olorin was known for his pity and would, at least before he realised that Sauron was indeed beyond redemption, rather try to save him than to declare the old uncorrupted Sauron as dead. Besides, both Sauron and Olorin were Maia so both would know how hard it is to kill one. /Jonas ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:05:24 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: <7vll2c$d4d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vikb8$de7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.103 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 941512588 13453 12.79.24.103 (2 Nov 1999 03:16:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 03:16:28 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Jonas Thorell wrote in message news:ka6T3.1204$Y4.25979@dummy.bahnhof.se... > Is that the region where Angband was located? I actually have a > hard time getting a clear picture in my mind where that would be. The 'Withered Heath' was North of the Lonely Mountain. Angband had been far to the West (two mountain chains over). In some versions of the geography Utumno was in the general vicinity of the Withered Heath, but it moved around quite a bit. > They weren't but wouldn't one servant of the dark powers sense > another and thusly avoid using the fire on them? Consider how well the Orcs got along. For that matter, a dragon might not consider itself Sauron's servant - though I'm sure he could convince them otherwise in person. > I find that explanation rather unsatisfactory since I seem to > recall that both Valar and Maiar entered the world when it was > practically empty, i.e. no life. True, however they entered over a long period of time. Tulkas didn't show up for a very long time. In some of his writings JRRT makes the Eagles Maiar - and we know they showed up after animals and trees and such. So, Sauron could have been a middle or late arrival and thus 'post-date' certain Middle Earth creatures as an embodied 'living' entity. ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:12:05 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 19 Message-ID: <7vlles$fpe$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.24.103 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 941512988 16174 12.79.24.103 (2 Nov 1999 03:23:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 03:23:08 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Jonas Thorell wrote in message news:VOlT3.1823$Y4.27914@dummy.bahnhof.se... > All true, but I didn't say they were as effective as the average > nuclear war-head either. Just that they were the most effective > weapon at the time, except for Morgoth in the First Age and later > Sauron. Possibly the Balrogs were more deadly though. Or is it any > weapon, alive or otherwise, that I'm forgetting here? I don't think Morgoth, Sauron, the various Balrogs or anything else came even close to the level of effectiveness Glaurung showed in combat. Morgoth and Sauron both AVOIDED combat on most occasions, but when they did enter conflict they generally lost - Morgoth's defeat of Fingolfin being the most notable exception, and even that one was no great showing on his part. Here he is, the greatest of all Eru's creatures, and this little elf guy was chopping him up. :) ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:42:58 -0500 (EST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 11 Message-ID: <25079-381E5DC2-37@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAwYPx1VYKO0VDBr+rVUDS6X3TMf8CFG+3OLrp7ztMbOHTCoVdQI++a2D5 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!news-out-b.news.pipex.net.MISMATCH!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!zur.uu.net!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >Certainly the Dwarves of Belegost were >able to face Glaurung's fire without any >problem. Not only that, they were able to wound him enough that he retreated, although their king died as well. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vikb8$de7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 64 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 02:13:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 941508837 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:13:57 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:13:57 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth "Jonas Thorell" : > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> Have you learned every tale by heart... > > Heh, no not really. There is still alot of stuff in HoME and > > Letters which I have to search around for. > Could have fooled me. Several others here too seems to know just > about every bit... It's not that we know every tale by heart: there are virtually no parts that I could actually recite verbatim from memory. I think it's a matter of long, long familiarity (probably the result of far, far too much time reading and rereading the "core" texts). In my experience, after a while it becomes reasonably easy to keep track of what general subjects are covered in each of the different books (that's why HoMe, with its myriad versions of so many things, can be more difficult). It's not just subjects, of course, but degree of detail as well: for example, the appendices to LotR contain general statements about the First age, while _The Silmarillion_ (or its sources in HoMe) contains complete stories of the time, and _Unfinished Tales_ has great detail on specific topics related to that era. Of course, it helps if you've reread the book in question within the past year or so, too. :) (What do you mean, "other authors"?) Finally, I don't know _anyone_ who doesn't generally need the books in front of them when citing direct quotes. [Re: other dragons] > > Good questions. I'd guess that they were still way up north in the > > 'Withered Heath' region - > Is that the region where Angband was located? I actually have a hard time > getting a clear picture in my mind where that would be. As far as I know, the region where Angband was located sank. :) Along with the rest of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, that is. You can pretty much cut and paste the Silmarillion map onto the Western edge of the LotR map, simply by lining up the mountain ranges. (The Ered Luin at the western edge of Middle-earth in the third age formed the eastern border of Beleriand in the First.) I have a vague, unclear memory that _Utumno_ may have been located in a region that did not sink (perhaps the Withered Heath? Or is my memory just playing tricks on me?) Do we have any clear notion of where it was? [creatures "older than Sauron"] > > This has always been a conundrum. The typical explanation is that > > they are 'older than Sauron' in the sense of having been within the > > world longer than he has. Other than that possible explanation it > > doesn't seem possible for them to be 'older' in any sense. > I find that explanation rather unsatisfactory since I seem to recall that > both Valar and Maiar entered the world when it was practically empty, i.e. > no life. Let's not get started on my theories about Bombadil. :) Seriously, though, I've often thought that the "older than Sauron" comments meant "in existence before Sauron rose to power", or perhaps even just as a reference to the fact that they were not created or bred by Sauron (unlike those sun-tolerant trolls, for example). This fits reasonably well with the spirit (at least) of Gandalf's quote: "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 02:36:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.175.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: laxnws02.socal.rr.com 941510214 24.30.175.94 (Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:36:54 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:36:54 PST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!attmtf!ip.att.net!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!laxnws02.socal.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Angela P Jones wrote in message <01bf20cc$1f545160$5c94a4d1@default>... >Okay I have been a fan of Middle Earth for about 6 years now, but just >started reading the books. Previously I played Lord of the Rings RPG and >Lord of the Rings computer games. Now I've noticed more then once people >here bashing those things, for various reasons. My question is why do >people dislike them so much? I mean if it weren't for them I wouldn't have >started reading the books, and buying posters, clocks, and other Middle >Earth products that have become my hobby. I really don't play the computer >game anymore and rarely plat the Role Playing game, but they still bring >new people to this world everyday. Thanks for listening. > We only pretend to know what we like. Actually, we like what we know. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vikb8$de7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 70 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 06:27:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.166 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941524071 195.178.166.166 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:27:51 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:27:51 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Steuard Jensen wrote: > It's not that we know every tale by heart: there are virtually no > parts that I could actually recite verbatim from memory. I think it's > a matter of long, long familiarity (probably the result of far, far > too much time reading and rereading the "core" texts). Well, by heart was a "slight" exaggeration I admit. More by heart than me then... > can be more difficult). It's not just subjects, of course, but degree > of detail as well: for example, the appendices to LotR contain general > statements about the First age, while _The Silmarillion_ (or its > sources in HoMe) contains complete stories of the time, and > _Unfinished Tales_ has great detail on specific topics related to that > era. Personally, I found both Silmarillion and UT incredible dull at first read. I more or self had to force myself to finish them. Maybe that's why I find it so hard to remember details from them or even where to look for the details. The fact that I have a very lousy memory when it comes to names doesn't exactly help either, does it? >>> Good questions. I'd guess that they were still way up north in the >>> 'Withered Heath' region - >> Is that the region where Angband was located? I actually have a hard >> time getting a clear picture in my mind where that would be. > As far as I know, the region where Angband was located sank. :) Everything can't have sunk, can it? The prisoners there must have walked out somewhere. Anyway, the map I have over the First Age doesn't mark where Angband was either. All I can remember was that it was in the north-west so it should have sunk. > Along with the rest of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, that is. > You can pretty much cut and paste the Silmarillion map onto the Western > edge of the LotR map, simply by lining up the mountain ranges. (The > Ered Luin at the western edge of Middle-earth in the third age formed > the eastern border of Beleriand in the First.) Must try that sometime... >> I find that explanation rather unsatisfactory since I seem to recall >> that both Valar and Maiar entered the world when it was practically >> empty, i.e. no life. > Let's not get started on my theories about Bombadil. :) Okay then...but I must be one of a kind that really does not like the character of Bombadil. > Seriously, though, I've often thought that the "older than Sauron" > comments meant "in existence before Sauron rose to power", > or perhaps even just as a reference to the fact that they were not > created or bred by Sauron (unlike those sun-tolerant trolls, for example). If I must go with one of those it would be the first. If the latter, just about everything is older than Sauron. He didn't create much himself did he? The Nazgul and some rings is about it. The sun-tolerant trolls are merely a refinement of the trolls that were already there. /Jonas ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> <7vlles$fpe$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:03:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.31 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941544181 195.178.166.31 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:03:01 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:03:01 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> All true, but I didn't say they were as effective as the average >> nuclear war-head either. Just that they were the most effective >> weapon at the time, except for Morgoth in the First Age and later >> Sauron. Possibly the Balrogs were more deadly though. Or is it any >> weapon, alive or otherwise, that I'm forgetting here? > I don't think Morgoth, Sauron, the various Balrogs or anything else > came even close to the level of effectiveness Glaurung showed in > combat. Ah, but he was a dragon wasn't he? > Morgoth and Sauron both AVOIDED combat on most occasions, > but when they did enter conflict they generally lost Then again, they lost even when they avoided fight. But their great strength didn't lie in the combat part I think. More a general powerfulness if you will and an uncanny aptness at corrupting others. If that goes for weapon... > Morgoth's defeat of Fingolfin being the most notable exception, and even > that one was no great showing on his part. Here he is, the greatest of > all Eru's creatures, and this little elf guy was chopping him up. :) LOL! Morgoth-barbeque anyone? /Jonas ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vikb8$de7$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <7vll2c$d4d$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:03:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.31 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941544182 195.178.166.31 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:03:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 13:03:02 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> Is that the region where Angband was located? I actually have a >> hard time getting a clear picture in my mind where that would be. > The 'Withered Heath' was North of the Lonely Mountain. So it is. The Northern Waste then, much more widespread. > Angband had been far to the West (two mountain chains over). In some > versions of the geography Utumno was in the general vicinity of the > Withered Heath, but it moved around quite a bit. The first mobile fort! >> They weren't but wouldn't one servant of the dark powers sense >> another and thusly avoid using the fire on them? > Consider how well the Orcs got along. Good point. > For that matter, a dragon might not consider itself Sauron's servant - > though I'm sure he could convince them otherwise in person. And maybe at a distance? Atleast before he spread out his powers into the Ring. >> I find that explanation rather unsatisfactory since I seem to >> recall that both Valar and Maiar entered the world when it was >> practically empty, i.e. no life. > True, however they entered over a long period of time. Tulkas > didn't show up for a very long time. In some of his writings JRRT > makes the Eagles Maiar - and we know they showed up after animals > and trees and such. So, Sauron could have been a middle or late > arrival and thus 'post-date' certain Middle Earth creatures as an > embodied 'living' entity. Best explanation of that so far. And one I atleast would tend to agree with. /Jonas ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 197.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 15 Date: 2 Nov 1999 17:21:22 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 941592086 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 17:21:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 17:21:26 PST Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:30:30 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >been a better product. That we can come up with 'creative' ways of >showing that nothing JRRT wrote prohibits the possibility of Morgoth >actually being an aspect of Nyarlahotep does not in any way counter >the view that we SHOULD NOT. Such changes detract from the realism You know, that's one of the most interesting theories I've read in the last six months or so. It almost explains Morgoth's motivation better than the conventional interpretation (which says he was just messing with everyone to make Iluvatar mad). What about Nyarlathotep being an aspect of Morgoth? Wouldn't that work just as well? ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:30:30 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 108 Message-ID: <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.95 X-Trace: bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net 941586097 776 12.79.28.95 (2 Nov 1999 23:41:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 23:41:37 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail wrote in message news:7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Perhaps Tolkien would not be outraged at your lack of imagination, > but he clearly had enough imagination to resolve such > "contradictions" himself. John, you continue to put this discussion in negative personal terms. 'Lack of imagination' has nothing to do with my position. I am saying that I feel ICE alterred the fundamental nature and 'feel' of JRRT's world on a widescale basis and that their 'version' of his world suffered for it. I consider the ICE Middle Earth drastically inferior to JRRT's Middle Earth and am saying that if they had stuck more closely to what Tolkien developed it would have been a better product. That we can come up with 'creative' ways of showing that nothing JRRT wrote prohibits the possibility of Morgoth actually being an aspect of Nyarlahotep does not in any way counter the view that we SHOULD NOT. Such changes detract from the realism and continuity of the world. Yes, ICE perforce had to make additions and decisions on ambiguous issues - however, IMO they went beyond that to totally unneccessary alterations to the fundamental nature of Middle Earth and their products suffered as a result. > Yes you did, as anyone may verify. Please do so... I'd like to see the quotation. It doesn't appear in any post I'm aware of making. > Anyway, since you now concede she was not the last descendent of > Ungoliant, Again, I never disputed it. Indeed, given that I said Shelob was a descendant of Ungoliant and the Mirkwood spiders were descendants of Shelob this is directly contradicting what I did say. If you can't provide a quotation of me making this ridiculous claim I'd really appreciate you not continuing to make a straw man of it. JRRT said that Shelob was the 'last child of Ungoliant'. Whatever he meant by that it would seem to indicate that she was now in a class by herself. Having another spider of the same stature at Dol Guldur is an alteration of that. An exception like this might be acceptable - constant alteration of the world in general made the ICE Middle Earth a completely different world which shared the name and a few common elements. > I think that the most you can say for sure is that Shelob was the > last giant spider to rival the Spiders of Nandungorthin. Great. That IS what I am saying. > Unless your ICE sourcebook specifically says that the Dol-Guldur > spider rivalled those First-Age spiders in size and power, then > you cannot claim that it contradicted Tolkien. As I recall ICE classified various levels of giant spiders. The Dol Guldur spider being a 'Great Spider' like Shelob and the Spiders of Nandungorthin. As such... you've just walked us through my point about ICE's contradiction. > What Tolkien says, in the passage you cite is essentially: "on > page such and such in Book IV, I say such & such." He then goes > on to misrepresent what he says in Book IV. Ummm... not necessarily. What happened to your 'creativity'? It is entirely plausible that when JRRT wrote 'last child of Ungoliant' he fully intended a meaning of 'last of the Great spiders of the kind of Ungoliant' rather than direct offspring. That is the claim he is making, and as such we must either take him at his word or say he was mistaken or lying. > The letter states that Shelob is a survivor of the First Age, as > is the Balrog. Presumably, then, she IS a Nandungorthin Spider, > and not merely a descendent of one (though she could of course be > both). Creativity! Creativity! Ungoliant fled to the South and either devoured herself, was slain by Earendil, or met some other fate depending on which texts you consult. Shelob might have been born of a brood Ungoliant had in the South. > I take it you have much experience as a game master and player in > the MERP universe? In the MERP universe, no. I read many of the books and had a severely negative reaction to the tone and flavor of them. As above I consider them an alternate and inferior world to JRRT's Middle Earth. No RPG world could be >exactly< consistent as JRRT was not always 100% consistent in various versions of his stories over time. However, the impression is that ICE barely even tried. > Perhaps this is true. But so far you have failed to document any > such wholesale alteration. What I am getting is that you have > creative differences with the elaborations that they made. The > examples that you cite still seem petty. Ah, well I used Dol Guldur because that was the example someone brought up in the first place and I happened to be familiar with ICE's Dol Guldur material. For more widespread alterations... take the entire magic system. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to the magic described in the books. None. Throw in the dragons and many 'demon' like things and other monsters that never showed up in JRRTs world - with no reference to the ancient twisted creatures of Morgoth and other nasties which WERE mentioned... it just isn't much like the books. ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 197.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 36 Date: 2 Nov 1999 19:41:49 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 941600513 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 19:41:53 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 19:41:53 PST Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:13:23 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>You know, that's one of the most interesting theories I've read in the >>last six months or so. It almost explains Morgoth's motivation better >>than the conventional interpretation (which says he was just messing with >>everyone to make Iluvatar mad). > >"conventional interpretation"? Where did you get THIS gem from? I've never >heard of it. Sorry, that was a bit inexact. He was trying to rebel against Iluvatar, because he didn't like living in a reality controlled by someone else. Is that better? The reason I phrase this as Morgoth trying to make Iluvatar mad is that I find it totally inconceivable that anyone with his intelligence would keep trying for thousands of years to escape Iluvatar's control and honestly think he was succeeding. It seems like eventually he would have reached the point of just trying to wreck as much of Iluvatar's world as he could, even though he knew it was all futile. >>What about Nyarlathotep being an aspect of Morgoth? Wouldn't that work >>just as well? > >Nyarlahotep was a messenger for other gods. Who would have sent Morgoth to >Arda? Iluvatar, maybe. Wait! I've got it! *Morgoth* sent Nyarlathotep to Arda, to take over after Sauron died! I can just see Morgoth watching Sauron make the Ring: "He's going to get himself killed doing that. Ah, well, I'd better start training a replacement. Let's see...who else is available?" [flips through Rolodex, gets to the 'N' section...] Where's O. Sharp? We need some help writing this one up. ###### From: "Jan Mitchell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:41:46 -0000 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 37 Message-ID: <7vni6m$crc$1@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-209-virgin1.tch.virgin.net X-Trace: nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net 941575190 13164 212.250.194.209 (2 Nov 1999 20:39:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Nov 1999 20:39:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!outfeed1.news.cais.net!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!btnet-peer!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>... >Jonas Thorell wrote in message >news:6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se... > >> I don't know where I read this but I recall something Gandalf said >> after the ring-war regarding that. It went along the lines that it >> was good fortune indeed that Thorin, Balin and what have you went >> on their trip regardless of the one rings fortunate reappearance >> since it also meant the death of the last dragon. > >Quest of Erebor, Unfinished Tales. However, JRRT says elsewhere >that Smaug was not the last. Apparently just the last in the >vicinity and/or the greatest of those left. > >> Speaking of which...how did Morgoth create the dragons? > >This is one of those mysteries for which we have almost NO >speculation or evidence from JRRT. I've generally supposed that >they might be descended from some of the ancient creatures twisted >by Morgoth which Orome hunted in the time before the awakening of >the Elves (the Nazgul steeds were apparently descendants of these >ancient creatures as well). However, Dragons were intelligent and >magically powerful - as such I'd suspect that they had to have some >sort of Ainur element as well. Morgoth was said to have 'fed from >his own hand' Glaurung and Ancalagon (as he also did Carcharoth), >which might be taken to mean that he enhanced them with his own >power. Final analysis, we really have no idea - but guesses can be >made. > >I find it strange that it took a Hell of a lot to slay Glaurung - the death of the great Túrin Turambar! Yet Ancalagon was supposed to be the mightiest dragon ever (see Dragons in the MERP Rulebook) and he was killed easily by Earendil. Any ideas? ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vni6m$crc$1@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <1wIT3.696$vN2.3683@dummy.bahnhof.se> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:15:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.144 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941577341 195.178.166.144 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 22:15:41 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 22:15:41 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Jan Mitchell wrote: >>I find it strange that it took a Hell of a lot to slay Glaurung - the >>death of the great Túrin Turambar! Yet Ancalagon was supposed >>to be the mightiest dragon ever (see Dragons in the MERP >>Rulebook) and he was killed easily by Earendil. Any ideas? Two things: 1. I don't agree that Ancalagon the Black was easily killed. The battle was long. 2. The MERP rulebook can hardly be considered canon, What Silmarrillion states account for more if you take my meaning. /Jonas ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:19:49 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 344 Message-ID: <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.161.19 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 02 21:19:49 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.161.19 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > Nystulc wrote in message > news:19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com... > > > Tolkien himself would be appalled by your lack of imagination. > > Please don't pretend to speak for Tolkien. Perhaps I should not. However, it is a bit shocking to me how many who evidence a total intolerance for creativity do so in Tolkien's name, since Tolkien was an incredibly creative person. Many of the contradictions you mention are no more contradictory than the "Gollum received presents on his birthday" vs. "hobbits give presents on their birthdays". Perhaps Tolkien would not be outraged at your lack of imagination, but he clearly had enough imagination to resolve such "contradictions" himself. > > 1) Shelob was not the last descendent of Ungoliant. > > Great. I never said she was. Yes you did, as anyone may verify. Anyway, since you now concede she was not the last descendent of Ungoliant, I cannot see what your objection might be to another descendent of Ungoliant dwelling in Dol Guldur prior to its destruction by the White Council. > > She was the last "child" of Ungoliant, the last direct offspring. > > That's one possible interpretation of the text. It might also mean > that Shelob was the last 'true heir' in the sense of being of great > size and power. Maybe, maybe. But if it is a matter of interpretation, why are you using it as an example of the unfaithfulness of ICE's creative team? Anyway, did your ICE sourcebook specifically say that the Dol Guldur spider is a rival to Shelob in size and power? It is clear that Shelob's kind are inspired by the "black widow" type spider, whose females are much larger than the males, and consume their mates after mating. Surely there are other oversized female spiders in Mirkwood, even if they are not quite up to Shelob in size and power. > Either way the Dol Guldur spider contradicts JRRT. Either way? How does it contradict him either way? I believe I have already demonstrated that "either way" it does not necessarily contradict him, for numerous reasons that you have failed to adequately address. > For the record JRRT elsewhere cites the 'last child' reference as > the evidence for saying that Shelob was descended from the giant > spiders of Nandungorthin - not Ungoliant herself and hence the > view of 'last child' meaning last giant spider. Ummm. This is VERY iffy, and also begs the question of what you mean by "last giant spider". Are you saying that the spiders of Mirkwood were NOT "giant spiders"? I got the impression they were pretty damn big by usual standards. I think that the most you can say for sure is that Shelob was the last giant spider to rival the Spiders of Nandungorthin. Unless your ICE sourcebook specifically says that the Dol-Guldur spider rivalled those First-Age spiders in size and power, then you cannot claim that it contradicted Tolkien. The quote you mention has some problems. It is inaccurate. What Tolkien says, in the passage you cite is essentially: "on page such and such in Book IV, I say such & such." He then goes on to misrepresent what he says in Book IV. The passage he refers to does NOT say that Shelob is a descendent of First Age spiders. It says rather that she is the SAME SORT of spider as the Nadungorthin spiders met by Beren & Luthien. The Book IV passage says her history is unknown, but finally concludes that she "fled from ruin" (presumably the same ruin that destroyed the other Nandungorthin spiders) and is the "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world." As such, Tolkien is incorrectly citing his own writings. [The letter was written in 1954, so it is conceivable that the passage was revised after this point, though I suspect not.] He even seems to contradicts himself within the course of the letter. The letter states that Shelob is a survivor of the First Age, as is the Balrog. Presumably, then, she IS a Nandungorthin Spider, and not merely a descendent of one (though she could of course be both). > > 2) The Red Book might well be wrong about Shelob being the last. > > What do silly Hobbits know anyway? > > Ah. Well, going this way we can ignore ANYTHING in the books and > say that it wasn't correct. No. It is fair to assume that the Hobbits correctly reported on those things that they were in a position to know. On the subject of Shelob, however, the narrator of LOTR makes it perfectly clear that her origins are unknown. "Last child of Ungoliant" is merely a conclusion drawn by the narrator based on the limited infromation available to him. > However, leaving aside the story > internal device that the books were written by hobbits rather than > JRRT this is something provided by 'the narrator' and thus generally > held to be true. The "narrator" in question is a hobbit well versed in Elvish lore doing his best to explain who and what Shelob was. He is quite frank about the fact that he does not know her history, but ultimately concludes that she is the "last child of Ungoliant". The passage fits quite well into the internal framing device of the "Red Book". > And as noted above, JRRT validated this passage in > one of his letters outside the actual text of the story. This self-contradictory letter is not an independent confirmation. Tolkien makes clear that he is citing Book IV, and proceeds to do so inaccurately. His final, edited text takes precedence over this hurried letter. > > 3) If the Spider in Dol Guldur were a descendent of Shelob, then > > she would also be a descendent of Ungoliant. Her children in > > Mirkwood would be descendents of Shelob as well. > > Quite true. However, if I recall correctly the ICE spider in Dol > Guldur was NOT a descendant of Shelob. In that case what was her lineage? Was her lineage stated? If not, then how can you be sure she was not a descendent of Shelob? And, of course, even if she was not a descendent of Shelob, her mates could have been, in which case all HER descendent would be descendents of Shelob. Really, dude, this contradiction is NOT difficult to resolve. > > 6) Tolkien says that Shelob's descendents spread to Mirkwood. He > > never says that all of the spiders in Mirkwood were Shelob's > > decendents > > Actually, he did... or rather referred to her as the 'dam' of the > Mirkwood spiders. OK. I'll grant you that one. I still must point out that he does not specifically say she was the "dam" (presumably meaning "female ancestor") of ALL the Mirkwood spiders without exception. Anyway, this does not rule out the Dol-Guldur she-spider being Shelob's descendant, or the she-spider's mates being descendent of Shelob. > > 7) Tolkien does not tell us alot about Spiders, certainly not > > enough to demonstrate that no spider in history ever got upset > > about the loss of her children. He only described one Spider in > > any detail. > > Ungoliant, Shelob, and the Mirkwood spiders in The Hobbit are more > than "one". Two of those specifically ATE their own offspring. Well, that's a whopping population sample of two. Very impressive. They ate their offspring only when they mated with them. They are based on the "Black Widow" type spiders, which have oversized females who also eat their mates. I'm not trying to argue with you about how Tolkien portrayed spiders. I'm merely saying that this need not limit creativity of a game-master in a role-playing setting. If all spiders encountered have the same one-dimensional personality, then things get pretty dull after a while. It does not seem to me necessarily contradictory that a sentient spider who eats her mate in order to provide sustenance for her pregnancy, might still get upset or feel "woe" if her children were lost or she were unable to protect them. After all, eating mates and protecting children serve the same goal: reproductive success. > Thanks for the needless profanity. Yes, it is quite true that > someone can alter what ICE wrote - I said so in the post you are > responding too. However, that is fairly irrelevant to my point > that what ICE wrote was not particularly faithful to JRRT's world. You have not demonstrated unfaithfulness. You have only demonstrated creative elaboration. Now I can sympathize with your opinion that the creativity expressed was in a different style from Tolkien, or if you personally have creative differences with it. But the writers of the various ICE materials are not Tolkien. It is their job to be creative. > > 10) In an RPG, it is necessary to come up with varied and > > challenging monsters and opponents to challenge your players. The > > idea is to keep them entertained... to HAVE FUN. Keeping the > > result strictly loyal to Tolkien is a secondary consideration...a > > very distant second. > > Ah! I'd agree that this was the attitude that the ICE authors seem > to have taken, but personally I disagree with this viewpoint. It is > perfectly possible to 'have fun' while remaining 'strictly loyal' > to the source material. I take it you have much experience as a game master and player in the MERP universe? I hope you are not too hard on players playing "elf" characters if they do not display what you think is a proper "elvish" personality. I hope you demonstrate a little more tolerance for creative differences than you have in this thread. > > Even if Tolkien had said that there were no other Great Spiders in > > Middle Earth in the Third Age (which he totally did not say) > > Actually, as explained above, he did. Actually, he said that Shelob was the "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world", which is open to a number of interpretations in the context presented. > > it would still be a good idea to contradict him if you think your > > players will enjoy battling a Shelob-style monster. > > Again, I disagree. If you must contradict the author to make the > game fun then either the world wasn't very good (yeah right) This does not follow. There are other reasons why you may need to contradict. > or you aren't very creative. Creativity can help overcome such obstacles, yes. Still, they can stand as an obstacle to creativity and require creative energy to overcome them. Sometimes such effort can have its rewards, but every creative spirit has a different style. > An occasional adjustment (even a giant spider > in Dol Guldur) might be reasonable if kept within the spirit of the > stories... OK. But if we agree on this point then I am not sure what we are arguing about. > but what ICE did was wholescale and seemingly pointless > alteration. They bought the roleplaying game rights to Middle > Earth, but the actual game they created could have been set in a > completely different world... I suppose that's my biggest problem > with MERP, they seem to have been interested only in using the name > rather than making a game designed to fit the setting. Perhaps this is true. But so far you have failed to document any such wholesale alteration. What I am getting is that you have creative differences with the elaborations that they made. The examples that you cite still seem petty. > >> Gothmog of Minas Morgul was a half troll? > > Why the hell not? > > >> Mordor was simply crawling with dragons? > > What do you have against dragons in Mordor? Mordor was an aweful > > big place. > > I suppose my objection to these isn't so much that they contradict > JRRT as that they contradict COMMON SENSE. Trolls are stupid. They > do not lead troops and make decisions on strategy anywhere in the > stories. Ummmm. OK. Lets set aside for a moment the fact that ICE's Gothmog was a "half-troll" and not a "troll" per se. Lets pretend the offence is worse than it is and they actually made him a troll, and I will still try to defend ICE. Bert, Tom, and William were the only Trolls we encountered where we got any kind of chance to evaluate their intelligence. I got the impression that they were illiterate and unrefined, and perhaps of below average intelligence by human standards. But they did in fact demonstrate a fair degree of cunning. I would hardly say they were complete morons compared to your average illiterate hillbilly. Illiterate hillbillys belong to the same species as Albert Einstein. If the best of us humans can figure out relativity, then if seems perfectly reasonable to me that the most intelligent members of Bert, Tom & William's species might actually be intelligent enough to lead troops. Add to this the fact that things would get boring pretty quickly in an RPG if every Troll encountered had the exact same personality and capabilities. What you call "common sense" I call "lack of imagination". And finally, let me remind you once more that ICE's Gothmog is a half-troll, not an actual troll, and that he is leading troops, not splitting the atom. > Dragons were devastating forces, just ONE of them could > have a major impact on a war - This applies only to ancient dragons "of royal lineage". The vast majority of dragons had not nearly the level of power posessed by Smaug or of his legendary predecessors. Most could not fly, most could not breath fire, most did not have Smaug's strenght, energy, or quality of armor, most did not survive long enough to reach Smaug's size, or anything remotely approaching it. I suspect that the average dragon is to Smaug what the spiders of Mirkwood were to Shelob. > yet Sauron never employed any in his > battles, ergo Sauron was either a blithering idiot or he had no > dragons .... let alone the many unusual varieties ICE ascribes to > his forces. When the heroes in Tolkien's stories invaded Mordor or faced Sauron's forces, they did not know exactly what Sauron had up his sleave. If I were running a MERP game, neither would my players. If my players, having read LOTR, are smug enough to think they know everything about the enemy, I would make sure to give them a few surprises. I'm sure that a creative game master would have no problem coming up with an explanation as to why Sauron might have had dragons in Mordor but not used them in the war. (Perhaps he did use them in wars, but sent them North, East, or South, to undocumented battles, or perhaps he left them to guard Mordor, knowing their territoriality would make them more useful for this purpose). If he can't think of one, there is nothing to stop the Game Master from having Sauron use dragons in his wars. > >> Morgoth had children? > > Why not? > > Because JRRT wrote that he couldn't. I believe that in earlier unpublished writings, Morkoth did have children. Anyway, we are splitting hairs if we require ICE to be strictly compliant with all of Tolkiens self-contradictory unpublished writings. Only his published stuff can fairly be considered to be "engraved in stone". > >> The mother of those children was one of the 'evil elves'? > > Sounds good to me. > > Despite the fact that this race was never encountered in the stories > of lands where they supposedly lived? The reason no-one ever heard of them is that they were encountered and killed by three heroes played by my buddies Fred, Mike, and Alice, whom no-one ever heard of either, because they never wrote down their adventures so that they could be preserved by hobbit chroniclers. This is a role-playing game. Please try to keep that in mind. > > Those folks at ICE are having more fun with Tolkien's universe > > than you ever will. > > No... they are having (or WERE having - they went under) fun with > a universe which is in some ways LIKE Tolkien's. I have plenty of > fun with Tolkien's ACTUAL universe - including having been GM for > two very well received RPG campaigns set within it. I have news for you. The universe you were playing in is NOT Tolkien's ACTUAL universe. It is a universe of your own invention based on your interpretation of Tolkien. It is different from and no doubt incompatible with any other MERP role-playing universe. -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: jbwhelan@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:45:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7vnm23$jct$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.68.161.19 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Nov 02 21:45:40 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x30.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 149.68.161.19 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjbwhelan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article > Michael Martinez wrote: > All true, but I didn't say they were as effective as the average nuclear > war-head either. Just that they were the most effective weapon at the time, > except for Morgoth in the First Age and later Sauron. Possibly the Balrogs > were more deadly though. Or is it any weapon, alive or otherwise, > that I'm forgetting here? I would like to point out that we have very little data on how effective were the average dragons. The ones we know by name were quite exceptional, "great dragon heroes of history" as it were. As already pointed out in this thread, they generally got killed by great human or elven heroes of history. I suspect that most never grew that large, either because they died too young, or because they did not eat as well as their legendary counterparts. We know that many could not breath fire and/or could not fly. Morkoth's dragons were probably cultivated by him specially over the course of centuries before they achieved the size and power necessary to challenge armies. Dragons seem to thrive in mountains and northern regions. Ordinarily, i would guess they prefer to keep to themselves. I suspect that Smaug was somewhat unusual in believing he had the power to challenge civilization and get away with it. Smaug was of a lineage of powerful fire-breathing winged dragons. Yet we have heard nothing of his parents from history. Evidently, they kept to the wilderness and chose the better part of valor. -- John Whelan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <381F52FA.2A4B1CBD@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Question about other products References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <7vni6m$crc$1@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 23:09:14 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.115.22.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 941576927 192.115.22.38 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:08:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:08:47 GMT Organization: Verio Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!nuq-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Jan Mitchell wrote: > I find it strange that it took a Hell of a lot to slay Glaurung - the death > of the great Túrin Turambar! Yet Ancalagon was supposed to be the mightiest > dragon ever (see Dragons in the MERP Rulebook) and he was killed easily by > Earendil. Any ideas? Who said it was easy? Earendil zoomed up on his ship and spent all day (or was it night?) fighting, aided by Manwe's eagles, before finally killing dear Blackie and sending him crashing down on Morgoth's head. :) Creole ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> <7vnm23$jct$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 00:29:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.53 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941588950 195.178.167.53 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:29:10 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:29:10 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail wrote: > I would like to point out that we have very little data on how effective > were the average dragons. No, we don't. Which is one of the reasons I quite like dragons. When I first read LoTR many years ago, I was a bit disappointed there were none in it actually. > I suspect that most never grew that large, either because they died too > young, or because they did not eat as well as their legendary > counterparts. We know that many could not breath fire and/or could not > fly. Do we? Only thing I can remember regarding that is that no-one had seen them before "The War of Wrath". Basically, there's two varieties of dragons but as far as I know the one remaining is of the flying fire-breathing varity. The other "brand" seems to be extinct. > Dragons seem to thrive in mountains and northern regions. Ordinarily, i > would guess they prefer to keep to themselves. I suspect that Smaug was > somewhat unusual in believing he had the power to challenge civilization > and get away with it. Well, he challenged only part of it. Once he had driven out the dwarfes in the first place, I suspect he much stayed put and only went out for food. Except when thieves got him angry that is... /Jonas ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <3FLT3.701$vN2.5075@dummy.bahnhof.se> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 00:50:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.242 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941590207 195.178.166.242 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:50:07 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:50:07 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > been a better product. That we can come up with 'creative' ways of > showing that nothing JRRT wrote prohibits the possibility of Morgoth > actually being an aspect of Nyarlahotep does not in any way counter > the view that we SHOULD NOT. Being an aspect of WHAT? /Jonas ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 01:50:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.41 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941593847 195.178.167.41 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 02:50:47 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 02:50:47 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote >>been a better product. That we can come up with 'creative' ways of >>showing that nothing JRRT wrote prohibits the possibility of Morgoth >>actually being an aspect of Nyarlahotep does not in any way counter >>the view that we SHOULD NOT. Such changes detract from the realism > You know, that's one of the most interesting theories I've read in the > last six months or so. It almost explains Morgoth's motivation better > than the conventional interpretation (which says he was just messing with > everyone to make Iluvatar mad). I have absolutely no idea of what Nyarlahotep is but I was under the impression that Morgoth did what he did not becuase he wanted to make Illuvatar mad but because he envied Illuvatars power and wanted some of his own. Illuvatar was the absolute power outside Arda so he figured he would take the next best thing: gain the power within. And I don't think that even if he had succeeded in slaying the rest of the Ainur (had he tried), he wouldn't be so mad as to try to overthrow Illuvatar. He knew his limits, well he had learned what fear was anyway. /Jonas ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 30 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:13:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.247 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941598859 207.224.149.247 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:14:19 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:14:19 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:30:30 -0500, Conrad Dunkerson > wrote: > >>been a better product. That we can come up with 'creative' ways of >>showing that nothing JRRT wrote prohibits the possibility of Morgoth >>actually being an aspect of Nyarlahotep does not in any way counter >>the view that we SHOULD NOT. Such changes detract from the realism > >You know, that's one of the most interesting theories I've read in the >last six months or so. It almost explains Morgoth's motivation better >than the conventional interpretation (which says he was just messing with >everyone to make Iluvatar mad). "conventional interpretation"? Where did you get THIS gem from? I've never heard of it. >What about Nyarlathotep being an aspect of Morgoth? Wouldn't that work >just as well? Nyarlahotep was a messenger for other gods. Who would have sent Morgoth to Arda? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:17:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.247 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941599129 207.224.149.247 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:18:49 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:18:49 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: >I have absolutely no idea of what Nyarlahotep is... Nyarlahotep is from the Cthuhlu mythos, created by H.P. Lovecraft early this century. >... but I was under the >impression that Morgoth did what he did not becuase he wanted to >make Illuvatar mad but because he envied Illuvatars power and wanted >some of his own... Melkor wanted to be able to create things as Iluvatar had done. That was why he kept looking for the Flame Imperishable. Later, when he entered Ea with the other Valar, he wanted to impose order on the chaos, but he became nihlistic and eventually just wanted to destroy anything that he couldn't control. >...Illuvatar was the absolute power outside Arda so he >figured he would take the next best thing: gain the power within. And I >don't think that even if he had succeeded in slaying the rest of the Ainur >(had he tried), he wouldn't be so mad as to try to overthrow Illuvatar. >He knew his limits, well he had learned what fear was anyway. Melkor's rebellion was to act in despite of Iluvatar, not against him, but Iluvatar promised to show that all Melkor's acts would ultimately result in making Iluvatar's own scheme greater, as Iluvatar wished. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Question about other products Organization: Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> <7vnm23$jct$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 64 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 03:27:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.247 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 941599732 207.224.149.247 (Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:28:52 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:28:52 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!mike In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: > > wrote: > >> I would like to point out that we have very little data on how effective >> were the average dragons. > >No, we don't. Which is one of the reasons I quite like dragons. When I >first read LoTR many years ago, I was a bit disappointed there were >none in it actually. > >> I suspect that most never grew that large, either because they died too >> young, or because they did not eat as well as their legendary >> counterparts. We know that many could not breath fire and/or could not >> fly. > >Do we? Only thing I can remember regarding that is that no-one had >seen them before "The War of Wrath". Basically, there's two >varieties of dragons but as far as I know the one remaining is of >the flying fire-breathing varity. The other "brand" seems to be >extinct. People typically interpret the story of the "cold-drake" which killed Dain I and his second son Fror as implying there was a breed of dragons who did not breathe fire (this story is related in Appendix A, section III, "Durin's Folk", of THE LORD OF THE RINGS). Glaurung was the father of dragons. He first appeared in First Age 260 and was then quite young. Fingon and the mounted archers of Hithlum drove him back to Angband. Glaurung reappeared in FA 455 at the onset of the Dagor Bragollach. He was still at that time the only dragon to make an appearance, but in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (which occurred in FA 473) Morgoth unleashed more dragons besides Glaurung. None flew, but Tolkien doesn't say if they all breathed fire like Glaurung. Turin slew Glaurung in FA 499 and other dragons attacked Gondolin in 510. We don't hear of dragons again until the very end of the War of Wrath (545-87). Morgoth unleashed the winged dragons in 587 when all his other servants had been destroyed or swept away. Ancalagon the Black was at this time the largest of the dragons and presumably the oldest of the winged dragons. If his lifespan was similar to Glaurung's, he should have been at least 200 years old at the time. >> Dragons seem to thrive in mountains and northern regions. Ordinarily, i >> would guess they prefer to keep to themselves. I suspect that Smaug was >> somewhat unusual in believing he had the power to challenge civilization >> and get away with it. > >Well, he challenged only part of it. Once he had driven out the >dwarfes in the first place, I suspect he much stayed put and only >went out for food. Except when thieves got him angry that is... Smaug gradually wore down the people of Dale after he took Erebor. Dale didn't fall in one fell swoop like the Mountain. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 14:15:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.45 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941638550 195.178.167.45 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:15:50 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:15:50 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Michael Martinez >>... but I was under the >>impression that Morgoth did what he did not becuase he wanted to >>make Illuvatar mad but because he envied Illuvatars power and wanted >>some of his own... > Melkor wanted to be able to create things as Iluvatar had done. In other words: he envied him that power. > Melkor's rebellion was to act in despite of Iluvatar, not against him, but > Iluvatar promised to show that all Melkor's acts would ultimately result > in making Iluvatar's own scheme greater, as Iluvatar wished. Which also means that Melkor was not evil by any means. He was just doing his part on Illuvatars stage to make the end as envisioned. /Jonas ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <6jIS3.1171$Y4.20880@dummy.bahnhof.se> <7vhm8q$chb$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <1f6T3.2213$Pf3.113303@news.uswest.net> <7vnm23$jct$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 14:15:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.45 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 941638551 195.178.167.45 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:15:51 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:15:51 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Michael Martinez > People typically interpret the story of the "cold-drake" which killed Dain > I and his second son Fror as implying there was a breed of dragons who did > not breathe fire (this story is related in Appendix A, section III, > "Durin's Folk", of THE LORD OF THE RINGS). Not in my copy it isn't. But it could also be interpreted as a particular evil drake, i.e. he murdered in cold blood. > Glaurung was the father of dragons. He first appeared in First Age 260 > He was still at that time the only dragon to make an appearance, but in > the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (which occurred in FA 473) Morgoth unleashed more > dragons besides Glaurung. None flew, but Tolkien doesn't say if they all > breathed fire like Glaurung. One question: where do you get that exact date from? But I will think of those dragons as predecessors to the likes of Ancalagon, in other words: an evolutionary chain magnified many times. >>Well, he challenged only part of it. Once he had driven out the >>dwarfes in the first place, I suspect he much stayed put and only >>went out for food. Except when thieves got him angry that is... > Smaug gradually wore down the people of Dale after he took Erebor. Dale > didn't fall in one fell swoop like the Mountain. No, but he still didn't challenge the entire civilization. He was no Morgoth or Sauron. /Jonas ###### From: "Öjevind Lĺng" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7vdhrg$ma3$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <19991030045757.26950.00000180@ng-ba1.news.cs.com> <7vfac3$i95$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <7vnkhf$i9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7vnsrh$o8$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Question about other products Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.109.153 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 941645543 212.151.109.153 (Wed, 03 Nov 1999 17:12:23 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 17:12:23 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-109-153.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:12:23 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez hath written: >Jonas Thorell wrote: >>I have absolutely no idea of what Nyarlahotep is... > >Nyarlahotep is from the Cthuhlu mythos, created by H.P. Lovecraft early this >century. > >>... but I was under the >>impression that Morgoth did what he did not becuase he wanted to >>make Illuvatar mad but because he envied Illuvatars power and wanted >>some of his own... > >Melkor wanted to be able to create things as Iluvatar had done. That was why >he kept looking for the Flame Imperishable. Later, when he entered Ea with >the other Valar, he wanted to impose order on the chaos, but he became >nihlistic and eventually just wanted to destroy anything that he couldn't >control. Perhaps Morgoth controls the people who devised the ICE Middle-earth? That would explain why it is a an inferior product to the world created by Ilúvatar. Öjevind --