From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Absurd Idealism (was: Are the elves) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:07:59 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Oct 25 21:25:01 1999 References: <38127d26.381681469@news.earthlink.net> <19991024152829.02026.00000396@ng-fu1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 100 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-003mnminnp002.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 26 Oct 1999 04:15:17 GMT Message-ID: <381524eb.555727884@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 24 Oct 1999 19:28:29 GMT, wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) wrote: >>>I'm with Prembone: >> >>Oh, good. **Somebody's** got to be. (Nascent persecution complex >>nipped in the bud.) > >Prem, you make the newsgroup fun for me because you're a different breed. I'll take that as a compliment. ;-) I admit that sometimes it's hard for me to switch modes when I've been posting heavily in my atheist/agnostic group, where the tone is by and large like a gathering of Monty Python fans (though serious discussion does take place), and then come here and forget how very SERIOUS and literal-minded and, well, bloody REVERENT, that's the word, so many Tolkien fans seem to be. That's the word: "reverent." Believe me, the Infidels may be serious and intellectual and argumentative at times, but above all, we tend to be irreverent. I like that. I respect that. I think that's why I'm appreciating your posts so much, even though I know we've argued on various points in the past. It's so refreshing to find a bit of well-placed irreverence on this group...hell, I'll even settle for badly-placed-because-I-haven't-read-Morgoth's-Ring-yet irreverence...it's getting entirely too pious around here for my tastes. Which is why I **must** make a point of sticking around, lest it grow completely moribund without me. ;-) Anyway, that was a bit of a sidetrack. >>Well..."lofty" from whose standpoint? I think I'd rather be >>libidinously human, pitfalls and all. > >Right -- I meant "lofty" in a sardonic sense. Right-o. I was just making sure to make my point that I don't consider the elvish remoteness and alienation to be "lofty." Dysfunctional is nearer to the truth. > I personally welcome death after >3 score and 10 if I can get my rocks off every once in a while (excuse the >crude language pls). Sounds like a worthy ambition to me. ;-) You don't want to hear about the boyfriend with next to no sex drive... >>My first reaction: LMAO! My second reaction: "You know, he's got a >>good point..." Seriously, Mark. I think the comparison has merit. >> > >I think the fantasy nature of elves is a weak point in Tolkien. They should >be, if they are not, more human if they are to be more likeable. But they are >creatures of fantasy and subject to a somewhat absurd idealism. This is mainly what I wanted to reply to. ;-) First, and I know you know this, that "somewhat absurd idealism" is exactly the point of such fantasy creatures. They become the repositories of our wishful thinking, our idealized notions of what a "perfect" human would be like, without all the messy stuff (and sex and sexual desire is about as messy as it gets, emotionally as well as physically!), serene, unruffled, and, well, "lofty" -- "above it all." Did you ever read books by Gael Baudino? In particular, a collection of her short stories, entitled "Spires of Spirit," really conveys a strong sense of this "elvish" yearning. The way in which she portrays Elves hits home, even more strongly than Tolkien's portrayal, the function of Elves as idealizations of what we think we want to be or should be. It was in part due to reading her, as well as doing all my musings about Frodo and the sea and whether going with the Elves is really more blessed than finding himself a new place among his own messy humankind, that got my own novel going. (Trying to get Parts Three and Four from the "ideas" stage to the "rough draft" stage, currently.) Which leads me to my second point: My own "elvish" race in my novel will be a response to this type of idealization. Indeed, the whole book deals with the idealization of an elvish race, not to mention the idealization of immortality and the unchanging immortal nature, and whether they really are "above us" or have a better lot than we do. Some of the themes from the "immortality vs. mortality" thread will undoubtedly put in an appearance. ;-) So maybe it will hearten you to know that at least one person has seen the Elven-light, found that it casts shadows, and is writing a sort of counterpoint fantasy (or is it really an anti-fantasy -- is "anti-fantasy" a genre?) that takes a critical look at elvish idealizations and a second look at the blessedness of being "merely" human. [snipping bad parodies of Janis Joplin tunes, as I can't think of another one to keep the hacking going] "For me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -- Carl Sagan The Secular Paganist http://www.stormloader.com/secularpagan ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Absurd Idealism (was: Are the elves) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:57:49 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 35 Message-ID: <381542DD.6B3C3318@virginia.edu> References: <38127d26.381681469@news.earthlink.net> <19991024152829.02026.00000396@ng-fu1.aol.com> <381524eb.555727884@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-7.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!nntp.abs.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Prembone wrote: There is an episode from the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation where they bring back to life some folk who were frozen and shot into space after they died sometime in the 21st century. (The idea being that later on, medical science would figure out how to cure what killed them and be able to revive them.) Basically, the show is all about contrasting our "primitive" ways against the more "idealistic" universe that Picard & Co. live in. There is one scene towards the end where the former stock broker guy is told that in the 25th century, poverty and suffering have been eliminated and that there is no more need of money because they can just use their Materializer (word?) technology to make whatever they need. The stockbroker's reaction is along the lines of: well what the hell do you do with your lives if you have everything you need? How do you find any meaning without the necessity to struggle? Contemplate your navels all day? Picard responds with some pieties about the greatness of exploration and discovering new things. For me, however, Picard's response was rather weak. Instead, I sided with the stock broker guy. Quite frankly, I'm not sure the "Brave New World" is a place that I would want to live in. No Shakespeare, no Tolkien, no anything that gives life its beauty in the contrast between hope and tragedy. Just my 2 cents . . . -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Absurd Idealism (was: Are the elves) Date: 27 Oct 1999 00:07:49 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 155 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uso2x3he2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38127d26.381681469@news.earthlink.net> <19991024152829.02026.00000396@ng-fu1.aol.com> <381524eb.555727884@news.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) writes: > > On 24 Oct 1999 19:28:29 GMT, wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) wrote: > > That's the word: "reverent." Believe me, the Infidels may be serious > and intellectual and argumentative at times, but above all, we tend to > be irreverent. Well, I suppose this is then the ideal place for an sacrilegious (Tolkien as not-perfect) trial baloon: something I think Tolkien did wrong. (I hope this is neither an hot air balloon, nor hydrogen because of the inevitable flames it will draw.) > >>Well..."lofty" from whose standpoint? I think I'd rather be > >>libidinously human, pitfalls and all. Well, who says elves could not have libido? AFAIK Tolkien only said that they did not have changing partners, nothing about intensity when with their "right one". > >Right -- I meant "lofty" in a sardonic sense. > > Right-o. I was just making sure to make my point that I don't > consider the elvish remoteness and alienation to be "lofty." > Dysfunctional is nearer to the truth. Physically, yes, but spiritually? See the trial ballon for an alternative interpretation (I know you like these from your Frodo threads). > >I think the fantasy nature of elves is a weak point in Tolkien. I fully agree. Actually they are my fovourite characters, but I still think Tolkien bungled them relative to what they could have been. > >They should > >be, if they are not, more human if they are to be more likeable. No, less (!) human. > > But they are > >creatures of fantasy and subject to a somewhat absurd idealism. The thing I dislike is that they are just slightly modified humans, mainly some stuff left away, resulting in the idealism you dislike. Properly, Tolkien should have given them an strongly different background, with derived really unique features, making their own character, not so wishy washy not-quite-humans. The problem I see is, that once fixed on his "2 children of Illuvatar" theme he really had no maneuvering room to give them sufficiently character of their own, other than as non dying humans. Think of the possibilites of, say, elves as basically non-physical beings (like valar and maiar) but with an preference of living in bodies. This would give them many features to base character on: - believable immortality, as not real "animal" based body - believable next to invulnerability, as living not body dependant they just defocus from the physical world, to the spirit world, also the Helcaraxe survival from this, as not subject to physics - in worst case giving up one body and then reforming an new one this solves the Glorfindel rebirth problem - "fed up" elves would deliberately defocus for an longer time, and then later refocus, this would make Aman the spirit world, which is why the valar are there, as hardly-ever-embodied beings - the "fading" of the elves is just an statistically larger amount going to the spirit world because of human dominance, this leaves it open that they may reappear one day when humans are ripe for it - possibility to disembody fully or partially _willently_ this as the source of the "living in both physical and spirit world" also of their magical abilites they regard as normal - also generally no reproduction by pregnancy, so solving the overfecundity problem, more elves only when "splitting" an spirit - no _physical_ sex, because they do not reproduce that way, they have no animal reproduction instinct that dominates them - but they do do sex, while focused in the spirit world occultists say that spirit/astral sex is far better than physical sex, as there is no body getting in the way, just pure enjoying - as not really physical no weight, so Legolas can run on fresh snow without being an physical enigma - no need for eating, just do it for social side, also good reason why there are no fat elves and why they last without food Of course this would break some parts of the story as-is, such as - elf families are not human father/mother/children affairs, rather an tree of "splitting points" - elf/human marriages would be out, particularly female elves having a child from an human (all 4 documented cases) - no permanent loss of Luthien or Arwen - no need for lembas IMHO the biggest weakness of Tolkiens elves ist, that his christian "child from the countryside" background denied him the possibility to really make the elves an different life form, which would still look sufficiently different to be interesting today (OK, I have an Sci-Fi overdose, and I prefer the Literature as escapism view). > "perfect" human would be like, without all the messy stuff (and sex > and sexual desire is about as messy as it gets, emotionally as well as > physically!), serene, unruffled, and, well, "lofty" -- "above it all." Emotional? I think there are quite a few emotional reactions among Tolkiens elves. Feanor goes ballistic over his Silmarils. Luthien and Arwen fall deeply in love. And there are remarks of the type of "slow to anger but furious when there". > idealization. Indeed, the whole book deals with the idealization of > an elvish race, not to mention the idealization of immortality and the Of course here the christian "eternal life" theme is coming in for Tolkien. His humans are also spiritually immortal, just bodily mortal. Anyway that would also remain in spirit elves. Actually I would prefer the humans also depicted as self-embodied spirits, just that they have forgotten their origins and become dependant on physics and so see the here and now as the only life. (Funny enough, that seems to be nearer to the original Jesus of Nazareth teachings, AFAIK them). And also such elves would be IMHO "better" as they have both worlds, physical and sprit to focus on, while humans have first only-physical, then after death only-spirit. > unchanging immortal nature, and whether they really are "above us" or > have a better lot than we do. Some of the themes from the > "immortality vs. mortality" thread will undoubtedly put in an > appearance. ;-) Of course Tolkien as an christian would regard both elves and men as immortal (that one somehow got missed in that thread), just immortality in different forms. > anti-fantasy -- is "anti-fantasy" a genre?) that takes a critical look > at elvish idealizations and a second look at the blessedness of being > "merely" human. An "merely" that Tolkien himself did not see himself (and most likely his humans) as. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Absurd Idealism (was: Are the elves) Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Oct 1999 21:22:27 GMT References: <381524eb.555727884@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991026172227.02111.00001183@ng-cf1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >>Prem, you make the newsgroup fun for me because you're a different breed. > >I'll take that as a compliment. ;-) Me? Compliment somebody? >hell, I'll even settle for >badly-placed-because-I-haven't-read-Morgoth's-Ring-yet >irreverence Was it really that badly placed? Shucks, I'm losin' my skills . . . >Right-o. I was just making sure to make my point that I don't >consider the elvish remoteness and alienation to be "lofty." >Dysfunctional is nearer to the truth Oh, that's harsh. What about Galadriel and Eowyn? They both learn to reject lofty social positions in favor of a more humble ideal. I know, I know, Eowyn ain't an elf . . . >You don't want to hear about >the boyfriend with next to no sex drive... Which is why human women can't stand elvish men. >that "somewhat absurd idealism" is >exactly the point of such fantasy creatures I think you hit it on the head as to why so many people here are irked when I open my mouth (or shoot it off, as some have said). They don't like their precious fantasies to be attacked, claim it for their very own birthday presents, and wield it to horrifying effect (think Hitlerian idealism molded and wielded by that evil man). An interesting notion, this: the Ring as Story/Fantasy. >Did you ever read books by Gael Baudino? I'm sorry I have not. I'll put her on my list of to be read stuff, though. >It was in part due to reading her, as well as doing all my musings >about Frodo and the sea and whether going with the Elves is really >more blessed than finding himself a new place among his own messy >humankind, that got my own novel going. Having found that notion myself after the fact, I'm more inclined to agree with your assessment of Frodo, now that I think of it. >So maybe it will hearten you to know that at least >one person has seen the Elven-light, found that it casts shadows, and >is writing a sort of counterpoint fantasy Check Steven Brust, who basically places Long Lived People next to Humans and sees what happens. Anyway, well put! >[snipping bad parodies of Janis Joplin tunes, as I can't think of >another one to keep the hacking going] > Was mine so bad? Gosh, you really know how to hurt a guy . . . I thought I was being clever putting Turin in for Bobby McGee. Mark Constantino ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Absurd Idealism (was: Are the elves) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 23 Message-ID: <12625-3816A72D-1@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <381542DD.6B3C3318@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQ0AE4qSNp6PpZUEUFQyDVgBpysOAIVAJ7UJLzHuPd4HtOH+zNPjbpSHHLf Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Larry Richards wrote: >There is an episode from the first season >of Star Trek: The Next Generation where >they bring back to life some folk who >were frozen and shot into space after >they died sometime in the 21st century. >There is one scene towards the >end where the former stock broker guy is >told that in the 25th century, poverty and >suffering have been eliminated and that >there is no more need of money >The stockbroker's reaction is along the >lines of: well what the hell do you do with >your lives if you have everything you >need? Actually, I've always felt that Mr Oppenhouse got disgusted with the liberal socialism of the Federation and ran off to Ferenginar so he could get stinkin' rich! --Dave ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Absurd Idealism (was: Are the elves) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:25:24 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 21 Message-ID: <381751A4.A2FC41CA@virginia.edu> References: <381542DD.6B3C3318@virginia.edu> <12625-3816A72D-1@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-8.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail David Sulger wrote: > > Actually, I've always felt that Mr Oppenhouse got disgusted with the > liberal socialism of the Federation and ran off to Ferenginar so he > could get stinkin' rich! > LOL Yes, I believe the ST writers found that this "we've got everything we need" stuff was going to get in the way of writing interesting stories. So by the 2nd season they just dropped it. By that time we are regularly seeing most of the bridge crew engaging in regular games of poker. And how pray tell could poker be of any interest unless scarce resources (i.e. money) were on the line? It wouldn't. My conclusion: the "Brave New World" is just to boring for decent stories. -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan!