From: wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Oct 1999 05:34:20 GMT References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991022013420.22524.00000309@ng-ft1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I think the assumption here is that all elves are fair of face. Did Tolkien write them without the ugly genes so often found in humankind? Aren't there even some chubby ones and drunk ones (a la Friar Tuck or Little John) at all? I'm with Prembone: Elves are starting to look worse and worse from my viewpoint. Lofty sexual standards, angelic youth and hair, toned and slim bodies; oh my, are they a brand of self-absorbed yuppies? Would they wave to each other from their BMW's? Audi's? Mercedes Benzes? SUV's? Do they live in LA? Mark Constantino ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> <19991022013420.22524.00000309@ng-ft1.aol.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 26 Date: 22 Oct 1999 10:50:07 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 940614612 207.212.198.18 (Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:50:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:50:12 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 22 Oct 1999 05:34:20 GMT, Wilbur07 wrote: >I think the assumption here is that all elves are fair of face. > >Did Tolkien write them without the ugly genes so often found in humankind? >Aren't there even some chubby ones and drunk ones (a la Friar Tuck or Little >John) at all? Apparently they don't have the ugly genes. I suspect that they occasionally get drunk, considering that they drink what appears to be some seriously alcoholic stuff. (Are we going to get into a Prohibition-style argument about whether when Tolkien said 'wine' he really meant 'grape juice'? I hope not.) >I'm with Prembone: Elves are starting to look worse and worse from my >viewpoint. Lofty sexual standards, angelic youth and hair, toned and slim >bodies; oh my, are they a brand of self-absorbed yuppies? In their defense I'd say they don't show the typical yuppie materialism. This is probably a matter of perspective. How can you get excited about a BMW when you know that in a few centuries it'll be a pile of rust? >Would they wave to each other from their BMW's? Audi's? Mercedes Benzes? >SUV's? Do they live in LA? I'll bet Feanor would drive a BMW. ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:10:17 -0400 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3810A886.65114434@erols.com> References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> <19991022013420.22524.00000309@ng-ft1.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: I/U4dDk8T67OqXTAmReW+ow3WVAeLM26CBcpzpnfCfU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 1999 19:03:28 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Wilbur07 wrote: > I think the assumption here is that all elves are fair of face. > > Did Tolkien write them without the ugly genes so often found in humankind? > Aren't there even some chubby ones and drunk ones (a la Friar Tuck or Little > John) at all? Legolas's father's chief guard and butler got drunk in the Hobbit. > I'm with Prembone: Elves are starting to look worse and worse from my > viewpoint. Lofty sexual standards, angelic youth and hair, toned and slim > bodies; oh my, are they a brand of self-absorbed yuppies? > > Would they wave to each other from their BMW's? Audi's? Mercedes Benzes? > SUV's? Do they live in LA? > > Mark Constantino Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit." ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:17:45 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> <19991022013420.22524.00000309@ng-ft1.aol.com> Reply-To: John Whelan NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 22 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > >Did Tolkien write them without the ugly genes so often found in humankind? > >Aren't there even some chubby ones and drunk ones (a la Friar Tuck or Little > >John) at all? > > Apparently they don't have the ugly genes. They also have the advantage of no aging. Ever notice how beautiful many small children look? By the time they reach adulthood they will have already endured 20 years of aging, and much of this beauty is often lost. This does not happen to elves. > I suspect that they occasionally > get drunk, considering that they drink what appears to be some seriously > alcoholic stuff. (Are we going to get into a Prohibition-style argument > about whether when Tolkien said 'wine' he really meant 'grape juice'? I > hope not.) This issue is specifically addressed in The Hobbit, when Bilbo rescues the Dwarves from the Wood-Elves. They do like to drink wine, they are somewhat resistant to its effects, but will indeed get drunk (or at least sleepy) if they drink too much of it, especially if the wine is particularly strong, as it was in that case. -- John Whelan ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? From: rpresser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> <19991022013420.22524.00000309@ng-ft1.aol.com> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E679242Bpt101594@10.4.0.21> User-Agent: Xnews/2.09.03 Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:28:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.173 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 940616938 151.204.202.173 (Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:28:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:28:58 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells).wrote.posted.offered: >I'll bet Feanor would drive a BMW. Feanor would BUILD a BWM, soup it up with twin overhead cams and all the other shit I hear from motorhead types that I never understand, and then be too busy to drive it. -- Ross Presser ross_presser@imtek.com "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Oct 1999 18:50:15 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <19991022145015.08880.00000006@ngol01.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: >I'll bet Feanor would drive a BMW. Actually, I think it's stated that Feanor's spouse was not among the fairest of the elves. I guess it indicates that not all elves could have been soap opera stars. Russ ###### From: jonmeltzer@mindspring.com (Jon Meltzer) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:38:12 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3810d930.874895@news.mindspring.com> References: <19991022145015.08880.00000006@ngol01.aol.com> Reply-To: jmeltzer@pobox.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.23.c9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 22 Oct 1999 21:39:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail On 22 Oct 1999 18:50:15 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (McREsq) wrote: >Actually, I think it's stated that Feanor's spouse was not among the fairest of >the elves. What do you expect ... he was a geek :-) ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 03:34:17 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sat Oct 23 20:45:06 1999 References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> <19991022013420.22524.00000309@ng-ft1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-004mnminnp180.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 24 Oct 1999 03:40:27 GMT Message-ID: <38127d26.381681469@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 22 Oct 1999 05:34:20 GMT, wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) wrote: >I think the assumption here is that all elves are fair of face. > >Did Tolkien write them without the ugly genes so often found in humankind? >Aren't there even some chubby ones and drunk ones (a la Friar Tuck or Little >John) at all? 'Twould make them far more interesting, to be sure. Perfection is boring, and probably immoral, too. >I'm with Prembone: Oh, good. **Somebody's** got to be. (Nascent persecution complex nipped in the bud.) > Elves are starting to look worse and worse from my >viewpoint. Lofty sexual standards Well..."lofty" from whose standpoint? I think I'd rather be libidinously human, pitfalls and all. >, angelic youth and hair, toned and slim >bodies; oh my, are they a brand of self-absorbed yuppies? My first reaction: LMAO! My second reaction: "You know, he's got a good point..." Seriously, Mark. I think the comparison has merit. >Would they wave to each other from their BMW's? Audi's? Mercedes Benzes? >SUV's? Do they live in LA? "Oh, Iluvatar, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? My friends all drive warships, but they give me the bends, Fought hard all my lifetime, which never ends, Oh, Iluvatar, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?" Sorry. ;-) "I **really** wish I'd burnt the Red Book." -- Frodo's Ghost MythTakes: Tolkien Parody http://mythtakes.tsx.org Ole and Sven and the Lutefisk of Doom http://olesven.tsx.org ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Date: 24 Oct 1999 07:10:26 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7uubd2$sg4$1@news.asu.edu> References: <940540778.451599@turtle.ru.ac.za> <19991022013420.22524.00000309 Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!CS.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) says: >Apparently they don't have the ugly genes. I suspect that they occasionally >get drunk, considering that they drink what appears to be some seriously >alcoholic stuff. (Are we going to get into a Prohibition-style argument Well, in TH they get drunk and fall asleep. That's how bilbo is able to get the Dwarves out of the Wood Elves' city. -- ###### From: wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Are the elves (was Re: Is Aragorn) "Young and hot looking"? Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Oct 1999 19:28:29 GMT References: <38127d26.381681469@news.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991024152829.02026.00000396@ng-fu1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >>I'm with Prembone: > >Oh, good. **Somebody's** got to be. (Nascent persecution complex >nipped in the bud.) Prem, you make the newsgroup fun for me because you're a different breed. >Well..."lofty" from whose standpoint? I think I'd rather be >libidinously human, pitfalls and all. Right -- I meant "lofty" in a sardonic sense. I personally welcome death after 3 score and 10 if I can get my rocks off every once in a while (excuse the crude language pls). >My first reaction: LMAO! My second reaction: "You know, he's got a >good point..." Seriously, Mark. I think the comparison has merit. > I think the fantasy nature of elves is a weak point in Tolkien. They should be, if they are not, more human if they are to be more likeable. But they are creatures of fantasy and subject to a somewhat absurd idealism. >"Oh, Iluvatar, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz? > My friends all drive warships, but they give me the bends, > Fought hard all my lifetime, which never ends, > Oh, Iluvatar, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz?" "Freedom is just another word for, nothing left to lose, and nothing is what Turin left me" -- Finduilas Mark Constantino