From: aswang@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: 18 Oct 1999 22:19:40 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Oct 18 15:25:10 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.12 (i586)) Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-209.244.66.31.chicago1.level3.net X-ELN-Date: 18 Oct 1999 22:19:40 GMT Message-ID: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail I think I faintly remember now--didn't Tolkien draw a lot of his material from the Kalevala, as well as the Eddas? (At least, that's where he got names for dwarves and such, right?) Do you know any other direct correspondences between the mythology of Middle Earth and Scandinavian myths? By the way, would you be able to recommend an English translation of the Kalevala? I guess what I was trying to ask more specifically was: aside from the Akallabeth, did Tolkien deliberately rewrite existing myths--for example, did he say to himself, I think I'll write my own interpretation of the story of Kullervo--or was he simply spinning his own tale, and he ended up subconsciously harkening back to other things he had read? ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 31 Date: 18 Oct 1999 16:41:44 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 940290311 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:45:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:45:11 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 18 Oct 1999 22:19:40 GMT, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >I think I faintly remember now--didn't Tolkien draw a lot of his >material from the Kalevala, as well as the Eddas? (At least, that's >where he got names for dwarves and such, right?) Do you know any other >direct correspondences between the mythology of Middle Earth and Scandinavian >myths? There's a scene in _The Hobbit_ that's pretty reminiscent of _Beowulf_. >By the way, would you be able to recommend an English translation of >the Kalevala? Sorry, I've never read it in English. >I guess what I was trying to ask more specifically was: aside from the >Akallabeth, did Tolkien deliberately rewrite existing myths--for >example, did he say to himself, I think I'll write my own >interpretation of the story of Kullervo--or was he simply spinning his >own tale, and he ended up subconsciously harkening back to other things he had >read? The similarities to the story of Kullervo are pretty obvious--more obvious than "Akallabeth", I'd say. (The Atlantis myth doesn't say anything in particular about *why* Atlantis sank into the ocean, whereas that's the whole point of "Akallabeth".) Most of the rest of Tolkien's mythology seems mostly original, though there are echoes of other stories. (Did anyone else see a bit of "The Little Mermaid" (either the original or the watered-down artificially-sweetened version) in "Of Beren and Luthien"?) ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <_KOO3.27060$Id3.13569@dummy.bahnhof.se> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:15:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.23 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 940292154 195.178.166.23 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 02:15:54 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 02:15:54 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote: >> Do you know any other direct correspondences between the >> mythology of Middle Earth and Scandinavian >>myths? > There's a scene in _The Hobbit_ that's pretty reminiscent of _Beowulf_. What scene? It's been a very, very long time since I read Beowulf so my memory of it's a bit vague to say the least. And to be perfectly honest, the last time I came upon that legend was when I read "Grendel" which basically tells the story from Grendels point of view instead of Beowulfs. > are echoes of other stories. (Did anyone else see a bit of "The Little > Mermaid" (either the original or the watered-down artificially-sweetened > version) in "Of Beren and Luthien"?) Now that you mention it, yes. Hadn't thought of it before. /Jonas ###### From: wilbur07@aol.com (Wilbur07) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Oct 1999 00:27:09 GMT References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991018202709.06992.00000141@ng-bh1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >From: aswang@earthlink.net Does anybody besides me know what an "aswang" is (as in "Hiwaga sa Balete Drive" or "marunung mga tao rito mag tagalog")? Is it a coincidence or is the person named A.S. Wang? I've thought of having "aswang" as a screen name for the Internet before. Mark Constantino ###### From: aswang@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: 19 Oct 1999 03:23:20 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Oct 18 20:25:07 1999 References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.12 (i586)) Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-166.90.71.141.chicago1.level3.net X-ELN-Date: 19 Oct 1999 03:23:20 GMT Message-ID: <7ugo78$8gg$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote: > There's a scene in _The Hobbit_ that's pretty reminiscent of _Beowulf_. Which scene is that? I think there's a lot of Beowulf in the LotR, too. Isn't that poem of the Rohirrim that Aragorn recites before they go to Meduseld pretty much a rewrite of one of the last parts of Beowulf? > The similarities to the story of Kullervo are pretty obvious--more obvious > than "Akallabeth", I'd say. (The Atlantis myth doesn't say anything in > particular about *why* Atlantis sank into the ocean, whereas that's the > whole point of "Akallabeth".) Isn't there a version of the Atlantis story that says that the people of Atlantis had grown wicked and slothful, and so it was destroyed by Zeus? > Most of the rest of Tolkien's mythology seems mostly original, though there > are echoes of other stories. I guess I wasn't so much asking if Tolkien's mythology was original. I'm sure there are a lot of elements that we can trace back to an earlier story; I guess most epics have a lot in common. Rather, did Tolkien intend to incorporate these elements into his mythology so that they would be recognizable? ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: 19 Oct 1999 07:13:28 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7uh5mo$ipq$5@readme.uio.no> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <_KOO3.27060$Id3.13569@dummy.bahnhof.se> Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!uninett.no!Norway.EU.net!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:15:54 GMT, Jonas Thorell wrote: > >Mark Wells wrote: > >>> Do you know any other direct correspondences between the >>> mythology of Middle Earth and Scandinavian >>>myths? > >> There's a scene in _The Hobbit_ that's pretty reminiscent of _Beowulf_. > >What scene? It's been a very, very long time since I read Beowulf >so my memory of it's a bit vague to say the least. The stealing of the Cup from the dragon. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 34 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:38:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.250 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940322399 207.224.149.250 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 03:39:59 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 03:39:59 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >I think I faintly remember now--didn't Tolkien draw a lot of his >material from the Kalevala, as well as the Eddas? (At least, that's >where he got names for dwarves and such, right?) Do you know any other >direct correspondences between the mythology of Middle Earth and Scandinavian >myths? The story of Turin is based on the story of Kullervo. The story of Earendil's star (the ship Vingelot) owes its form to the Norse myth about Ornendil's toe (Thor carried him across a freezing river, and one toe stuck out and froze, so Thor tore it off and threw it into the sky to become a star), the "Second Prophecy of Mandos" owes a great deal to the Ragnarok, the idea of different time passing in Lorien (and Rivendell) owes a lot to European folklore, the white hart in THE HOBBIT also owes a lot to European folklore, as has been pointed out the cup-theft in THE HOBBIT was lifted from "Beowulf", and some people argue that Gandalf's approach to Meduseld was also lifted from "Beowulf", the story of Turin and Glaurung is also said to have been strongly influenced by the Sigurd/Fafnir legend, Manwe's eagles are reminiscent of Odin's ravens, the story of Tarannon Falastur and Beruthiel is based on the myth of Njord and his wife (a giantess whose name I forget -- Thor killed her father, so she demanded a husband from the Aesir, and the males lined up, but they made her choose by their feet -- she thought she was getting Baldur but instead got the sea-god). There are many other such borrowings -- too many, really, to detail in one article. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.106.186 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 940349932 212.151.106.186 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:18:52 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:18:52 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-106-186.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:18:56 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez hath written: >In article aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >>I think I faintly remember now--didn't Tolkien draw a lot of his >>material from the Kalevala, as well as the Eddas? (At least, that's >>where he got names for dwarves and such, right?) Do you know any other >>direct correspondences between the mythology of Middle Earth and Scandinavian >>myths? > >The story of Turin is based on the story of Kullervo. The story of >Earendil's star (the ship Vingelot) owes its form to the Norse myth about >Ornendil's toe (Thor carried him across a freezing river, and one toe stuck >out and froze, so Thor tore it off and threw it into the sky to become a >star), It may also to some extent have been influenced by the story of he god Frey's flying ship "Skidbladnir". [snip] Manwe's >eagles are reminiscent of Odin's ravens, the story of Tarannon Falastur and >Beruthiel is based on the myth of Njord and his wife (a giantess whose name >I forget -- Thor killed her father, so she demanded a husband from the >Aesir, and the males lined up, but they made her choose by their feet -- >she thought she was getting Baldur but instead got the sea-god). Her name was Skadi. The marriage was not without problems, since she loved the mountains and he loved the sea. Accordingly, they spent a lot of time in a second residence in the mountains. Öjevind -- ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 9 Date: 19 Oct 1999 13:24:58 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 940364703 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:25:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:25:03 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.net!WCG!WCG2!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:18:56 +0200, Öjevind Lång wrote: >Her name was Skadi. The marriage was not without problems, since she loved >the mountains and he loved the sea. Accordingly, they spent a lot of time in >a second residence in the mountains. Hmmm. We don't see another Tolkien similarity there, do we? ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uj9p5$tc_004@Org.xenite.org> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 14 Date: 19 Oct 1999 19:47:16 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 940387639 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:47:19 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:47:19 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:35:17 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>>Her name was Skadi. The marriage was not without problems, since she loved >>>the mountains and he loved the sea. Accordingly, they spent a lot of time in >>>a second residence in the mountains. >> >>Hmmm. We don't see another Tolkien similarity there, do we? > >I only know of the Tarannon/Beruthiel connection myself (he lived in >Pelargir and she lived in Osgiliath, until she got so bad he finally got >rid of her). What else did you have in mind? I'm thinking Aldarion and Erendis. ###### From: aswang@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: 19 Oct 1999 21:50:26 GMT Distribution: world References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-ELN-Date: 19 Oct 1999 21:50:26 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Oct 19 14:55:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 8 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.12 (i586)) NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-166.90.66.8.chicago1.level3.net Message-ID: <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > There are many other such borrowings -- too many, really, to detail in one > article. Has anyone done this yet, though? Is there some source that I can refer to that does detail all these borrowings? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7uj9p5$tc_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:35:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.90 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940387020 209.181.118.90 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:37:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:37:00 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 18:18:56 +0200, Öjevind Lång >wrote: > >>Her name was Skadi. The marriage was not without problems, since she loved >>the mountains and he loved the sea. Accordingly, they spent a lot of time in >>a second residence in the mountains. > >Hmmm. We don't see another Tolkien similarity there, do we? I only know of the Tarannon/Beruthiel connection myself (he lived in Pelargir and she lived in Osgiliath, until she got so bad he finally got rid of her). What else did you have in mind? -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:36:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.90 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940387092 209.181.118.90 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:38:12 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:38:12 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: > >> There are many other such borrowings -- too many, really, to detail in one >> article. > >Has anyone done this yet, though? Is there some source that I can >refer to that does detail all these borrowings? I don't know of anything exhaustive, and the only book I've ever actually read which attempts to unravel the sources is Lin Carter's ancient A LOOK BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS, written back in the 1960s, I believe. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7ujgdg$2lo_002@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uj9p5$tc_004@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:28:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.90 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940393813 209.181.118.90 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:30:13 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:30:13 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:35:17 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>>Her name was Skadi. The marriage was not without problems, since she loved >>>>the mountains and he loved the sea. Accordingly, they spent a lot of time in >>>>a second residence in the mountains. >>> >>>Hmmm. We don't see another Tolkien similarity there, do we? >> >>I only know of the Tarannon/Beruthiel connection myself (he lived in >>Pelargir and she lived in Osgiliath, until she got so bad he finally got >>rid of her). What else did you have in mind? > >I'm thinking Aldarion and Erendis. Theirs was not a political marriage, whereas Falastur and Beruthiel seem to have been married for some political purpose (she was a Black Numenorean). The marriage of Skadi and Njord could be considered political as well -- at the very least, it was not for love. Aldarion and Erendis loved each other for a time but grew apart. I can't think of any mythological parallels. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: aswang@earthlink.net Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> Distribution: world User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.12 (i586)) Lines: 7 Message-ID: <7mcP3.259$W7.22217@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:24:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.64.44 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 940397059 209.244.64.44 (Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:24:19 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:24:19 PDT Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!feeder.via.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > I don't know of anything exhaustive, and the only book I've ever actually > read which attempts to unravel the sources is Lin Carter's ancient A LOOK > BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS, written back in the 1960s, I believe. Is the book any good? What are the chances of finding a copy somewhere? ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uj9p5$tc_004@Org.xenite.org> <7ujgdg$2lo_002@Org.xenite.org> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 17 Date: 20 Oct 1999 12:33:28 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 940448010 207.212.198.18 (Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:33:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:33:30 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:28:32 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>I'm thinking Aldarion and Erendis. > >Theirs was not a political marriage, whereas Falastur and Beruthiel seem to >have been married for some political purpose (she was a Black Numenorean). >The marriage of Skadi and Njord could be considered political as well -- at >the very least, it was not for love. Aldarion and Erendis loved each other >for a time but grew apart. I can't think of any mythological parallels. There were definitely political concerns in the marriage of Aldarion and Erendis. The problem they eventually ran into wasn't that they "grew apart" but that there were underlying flaws in their relationship (Aldarion's career ambitions, in particular) that they never really learned to handle. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7ukvu1$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <7mcP3.259$W7.22217@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:59:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.181.118.194 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940442472 209.181.118.194 (Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:01:12 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:01:12 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7mcP3.259$W7.22217@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >Michael Martinez wrote: >> I don't know of anything exhaustive, and the only book I've ever actually >> read which attempts to unravel the sources is Lin Carter's ancient A LOOK >> BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS, written back in the 1960s, I believe. > >Is the book any good? What are the chances of finding a copy somewhere? Well, I like it, but it's a thin little thing that leaves you wanting more. I've also read that a number of fans actually dislike it and think it's a bunk of hokum (I can't figure out why -- I even reread the book after someone panned it and couldn't see the problem). As for finding it, well, I got my copy in a used bookstore. I doubt it will ever see print again. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:22:25 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.56.110.180 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: wards 940441776 212.56.110.180 (Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:49:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:49:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!landlord!wards.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote in message <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org>... >In article <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote: >> >>> There are many other such borrowings -- too many, really, to detail in one >>> article. >> >>Has anyone done this yet, though? Is there some source that I can >>refer to that does detail all these borrowings? > >I don't know of anything exhaustive, and the only book I've ever actually >read which attempts to unravel the sources is Lin Carter's ancient A LOOK >BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS, written back in the 1960s, I believe. TA Shippey's "The Road to Middle-earth" touches on these matters. So does David Day's "Tolkien's Ring", but its tripe. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net ###### From: aswang@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: 20 Oct 1999 19:57:10 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Oct 20 13:05:06 1999 References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.13 (i586)) Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-209.244.64.162.chicago1.level3.net X-ELN-Date: 20 Oct 1999 19:57:10 GMT Message-ID: <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Andrew Wells wrote: > TA Shippey's "The Road to Middle-earth" touches on these matters. So does > David Day's "Tolkien's Ring", but its tripe. I read "The Road to Middle-Earth" several years ago, and I pretty sure that's the only reason why I even know that the Kalevala has something to do with Middle Earth, but I don't remember it actually going into descriptions of how Tolkien's myths corresponded to "real" myths, other than how he pulled some of the names for the Dwarves and for Gandalf. Is my memory failing, or was there actually stuff like that in there? Out of curiosity, what's wrong with "Tolkien's Ring"? (I have never read it) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7umebd$1vk_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uj9p5$tc_004@Org.xenite.org> <7ujgdg$2lo_002@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xenite.org Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:11:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.203 X-Trace: 21 Oct 1999 01:12:40 -0700, 207.224.149.203 Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-west.eli.net!news.sisna.com!Xenite In article , mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 04:28:32 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: > >>>I'm thinking Aldarion and Erendis. >> >>Theirs was not a political marriage, whereas Falastur and Beruthiel seem to >>have been married for some political purpose (she was a Black Numenorean). >>The marriage of Skadi and Njord could be considered political as well -- at >>the very least, it was not for love. Aldarion and Erendis loved each other >>for a time but grew apart. I can't think of any mythological parallels. > >There were definitely political concerns in the marriage of Aldarion and >Erendis. I know of no political connections. Aldarion's mother took a liking to Erendis and played matchmaker. Aldarion didn't marry her for any reason but love. >The problem they eventually ran into wasn't that they "grew apart" but that >there were underlying flaws in their relationship (Aldarion's career >ambitions, in particular) that they never really learned to handle. Which is basically the same as growing apart. Their initial attraction to one another was insufficient to keep the momentum going. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: The Xenite.Org Domain -- Worlds of Imagination on the Net Distribution: world Message-ID: <7umed7$1vk_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xenite.org Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:12:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.203 X-Trace: 21 Oct 1999 01:13:37 -0700, 207.224.149.203 Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news-west.eli.net!news.sisna.com!Xenite In article <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: > >Out of curiosity, what's wrong with "Tolkien's Ring"? (I have never >read it) The fact it was written by David Day is damning enough. He has never published anything worthwhile on Tolkien (except pretty pictures). -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Lines: 33 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <2QyP3.567$dE1.18320@wards> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:55:17 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.56.120.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@plus.net.uk X-Trace: wards 940489086 212.56.120.24 (Thu, 21 Oct 1999 06:58:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 06:58:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!landlord!wards.POSTED!not-for-mail aswang@earthlink.net wrote in message <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >Andrew Wells wrote: > >> TA Shippey's "The Road to Middle-earth" touches on these matters. So does >> David Day's "Tolkien's Ring", but its tripe. > >I read "The Road to Middle-Earth" several years ago, and I pretty sure >that's the only reason why I even know that the Kalevala has something >to do with Middle Earth, but I don't remember it actually going into >descriptions of how Tolkien's myths corresponded to "real" myths, >other than how he pulled some of the names for the Dwarves and for >Gandalf. Is my memory failing, or was there actually stuff like that >in there? > >Out of curiosity, what's wrong with "Tolkien's Ring"? (I have never >read it) David Day doesn't know Tolkien's work thoroughly David Day doesn't know North European myths thoroughly !!! OTOH, it does have illustrations by Alan Lee Andrew -- Andrew Wells Change 10 to 9 to reach me Don't spam me, spam abuse@force9.net ###### From: "Alatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:34:52 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 22 Message-ID: <7un30t$9ap$8@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <2QyP3.567$dE1.18320@wards> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-92.coumadin.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 940511069 9561 62.136.59.92 (21 Oct 1999 13:04:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Oct 1999 13:04:29 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Andrew Wells wrote: >aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >>Andrew Wells wrote: >> >>> TA Shippey's "The Road to Middle-earth" touches on these matters. So >does >>> David Day's "Tolkien's Ring", but its tripe. >>Out of curiosity, what's wrong with "Tolkien's Ring"? (I have never >>read it) > >David Day doesn't know Tolkien's work thoroughly >David Day doesn't know North European myths thoroughly !!! > I somtimes think that David Day's true destiny was to work for MERP ;-) -- Alatar ###### From: jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:09:12 GMT Organization: PowerSurfr - High Speed Internet Lines: 18 Message-ID: <380f2c7f.2184187@news.prosurfr.com> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: c9169-003.v-wave.com X-Trace: dagger.ab.videon.ca 940518483 32708 24.108.21.103 (21 Oct 1999 15:08:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Oct 1999 15:08:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.tac.net!news.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote, in part: >In article <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >>Michael Martinez wrote: >>> There are many other such borrowings -- too many, really, to detail in one >>> article. >>Has anyone done this yet, though? Is there some source that I can >>refer to that does detail all these borrowings? >I don't know of anything exhaustive, and the only book I've ever actually >read which attempts to unravel the sources is Lin Carter's ancient A LOOK >BEHIND THE LORD OF THE RINGS, written back in the 1960s, I believe. What about David Day's "Tolkien's Ring"? John Savard ( teneerf<- ) http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7uq49c$2hk_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <2QyP3.567$dE1.18320@wards> <7un30t$9ap$8@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:44:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.76 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940610778 207.224.147.76 (Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:46:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:46:18 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7un30t$9ap$8@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Alatar" wrote: >I somtimes think that David Day's true destiny was to work for MERP ;-) Couldn't be. They used Tolkien as a reference. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted?) Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7uq4am$2hk_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <380f2c7f.2184187@news.prosurfr.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:45:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.76 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 940610820 207.224.147.76 (Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:47:00 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:47:00 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <380f2c7f.2184187@news.prosurfr.com>, jsavard@tenMAPSONeerf.edmonton.ab.ca (John Savard) wrote: > >What about David Day's "Tolkien's Ring"? I was trying to list books which provided information on Tolkien, not other fictive works. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Kalevala's influence on ME (was Re: Purely invented or adapted? ) Date: 22 Oct 1999 23:50:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 18 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u3dv39ib1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7ug6ds$fhm$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uhalq$1r4_016@Org.xenite.org> <7uip32$f1m$2@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7uj9rc$tc_006@Org.xenite.org> <7ul6qm$64s$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <2QyP3.567$dE1.18320@wards> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Andrew Wells" writes: > > aswang@earthlink.net wrote in message > > > >Out of curiosity, what's wrong with "Tolkien's Ring"? (I have never > >read it) > > David Day doesn't know Tolkien's work thoroughly > David Day doesn't know North European myths thoroughly Well, that now throws up the obvious question: Thourogh sources on Tolkien exist (HoME, Letters), so where can one find an source on North European myths which is thorough? Ideally a website (that stuff is definitely out of copyright), but I a book will also do. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/