From: aswang@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Purely invented or adapted? Date: 18 Oct 1999 19:18:09 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Oct 18 12:25:10 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990805 ("Preacher Man") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.12 (i586)) Lines: 3 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-166.90.70.45.chicago1.level3.net X-ELN-Date: 18 Oct 1999 19:18:09 GMT Message-ID: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Are any more of the stories and myths in the Silmarillion or the LotR deliberate rewrites of "real" myths and legends, like how the Akallabeth was a rewrite of the legend of Atlantis? ###### From: mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Purely invented or adapted? References: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 8 Date: 18 Oct 1999 13:50:01 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 940279819 207.212.198.18 (Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:50:19 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:50:19 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On 18 Oct 1999 19:18:09 GMT, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: >Are any more of the stories and myths in the Silmarillion or the LotR >deliberate rewrites of "real" myths and legends, like how the >Akallabeth was a rewrite of the legend of Atlantis? Turin Turambar was based heavily on the story of Kullervo from the Kalevala, except that Kullervo was an Elf...uh, a Finn. ###### From: "Robert B. Marks" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Purely invented or adapted? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:02:11 -0400 Lines: 48 Organization: None at present... X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: p33.triton2.sentex.ca Message-ID: <3810dee2.0@flint.sentex.net> X-Trace: 22 Oct 1999 18:02:10 -0400, p33.triton2.sentex.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!nnrp1.tor.metronet.ca!flint.sentex.net!p33.triton2.sentex.ca wrote in message news:7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > Are any more of the stories and myths in the Silmarillion or the LotR > deliberate rewrites of "real" myths and legends, like how the > Akallabeth was a rewrite of the legend of Atlantis? Well, these are probably the famous ones, but... The cup Bilbo steals from Smaug in The Hobbit is a reference to Beowulf, when a thief enrages a Dragon (who goes on to burn down Beowulf's kingdom) by stealing a golden cup. The riddle contests between Bilbo and Gollum are part of an older Nordic tradition of riddle contests, which often appear in the Poetic and Prose Eddas. The Misty Mountains themselves are a reference to a poem in the Poetic Edda. The sword Aragorn bears is a reference to Volsunga Saga, where Sigmund's sword is destroyed in battle by Odin, and his son, Sigurd, has the sword reforged. Most of the names (such as Gandalf, Thorin, etc.) are taken from Norse mythology, particularly the Eddas. And, to refute what seems true at first glance, the Ring is NOT the cursed ring in Volsunga Saga or Die Nibelungenlied. I am familiar with both, and in neither of them is the ring a powerful source of corruption and evil in the same way as Tolkien's Ring. I've personally always believed that the lion's share of the conflict in the Silmarillion was inspired by the tales of the war between the Tuatha de Danaan and the Formorians in Ireland (a good edition is Lady Gregory's Complete Irish Mythology). A good source is Tom Shippey's "The Road to Middle-Earth." A not-so-good source is David Day's "Tolkien's Ring," which for some strange reason retells the story of Volsunga Saga at least three times. Robert Marks, showing off... -- The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone, And I am but a lonely wanderer / With time as my only home. -- From Magus Draconum ###### From: "Robert B. Marks" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3810dee2.0@flint.sentex.net> Subject: Re: Purely invented or adapted? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:00:22 -0400 Lines: 36 Organization: None at present... X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: p39.triton2.sentex.ca Message-ID: <381124c5.0@flint.sentex.net> X-Trace: 22 Oct 1999 23:00:21 -0400, p39.triton2.sentex.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!nnrp1.tor.metronet.ca!flint.sentex.net!p39.triton2.sentex.ca David Salo wrote in message news:dsalo-ya02408000R2210992130450001@news.terracom.net... > In article <3810dee2.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" > wrote: > > > The Misty Mountains themselves are a reference to a poem in the Poetic Edda. > > I don't recall any "Misty Mountains" in the Edda (not to say there > aren't any, I just don't remember them). Perhaps you're thinking of > Mirkwood, which (in the form Myrkvidhr) does appear in Norse (or more > generally Germanic) legend? I'm afraid I'm pulling this out of Tom Shippey, as my copy of the Poetic Edda happens to be packed away in a box somewhere right now (I'm in the process of trying to move out of the house, and far too many of my books are packed in boxes...). From Skirnismal: "The mirk is outside, I call it our business to fare over the misty mountains, over the tribes of orcs (my note: "orc" is actually an Old English word meaning "demon", sometimes referred to as "orcneas" or "orcthyrs"; we now return you to our regularly scheduled quote); we will both come back, or else he will take us both, he the mighty giant." For those without an Old English or Norse background: Because of the way capitalization worked back then, "misty mountains" could be a proper name. The capitalization really depends on the translator. Robert Marks -- The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone, And I am but a lonely wanderer / With time as my only home. -- From Magus Draconum ###### From: "Robert B. Marks" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Purely invented or adapted? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:05:49 -0400 Lines: 31 Organization: None at present... X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: p39.triton2.sentex.ca Message-ID: <3811260b.0@flint.sentex.net> X-Trace: 22 Oct 1999 23:05:47 -0400, p39.triton2.sentex.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!nnrp1.tor.metronet.ca!flint.sentex.net!p39.triton2.sentex.ca Mark Wells wrote in message news:slrn80n11j.51h.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > On 18 Oct 1999 19:18:09 GMT, aswang@earthlink.net wrote: > >Are any more of the stories and myths in the Silmarillion or the LotR > >deliberate rewrites of "real" myths and legends, like how the > >Akallabeth was a rewrite of the legend of Atlantis? > > Turin Turambar was based heavily on the story of Kullervo from the Kalevala, > except that Kullervo was an Elf...uh, a Finn. I think part of Tolkien's brilliance was that he was able to take all these myths that are so ingrained in our culture that we wouldn't even notice we were influenced by them if they were left alone, and synthisize them into the background of something new. The end result is that LotR is something that nobody has ever truly been able to duplicate (although Tad Williams has come close), and manages to speak to cultural memory in our very souls. I try to duplicate what he did in my own fiction, but I fear that without the lifetime of study which he had, I could never even come close to a work with the power of LotR. Robert Marks -- The future has not been written, / The past is set in stone, And I am but a lonely wanderer / With time as my only home. -- From Magus Draconum ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Purely invented or adapted? Message-ID: References: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3810dee2.0@flint.sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 11 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 02:23:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.246.5.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 940645383 204.246.5.117 (Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:23:03 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:23:03 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo In article <3810dee2.0@flint.sentex.net>, "Robert B. Marks" wrote: > The Misty Mountains themselves are a reference to a poem in the Poetic Edda. I don't recall any "Misty Mountains" in the Edda (not to say there aren't any, I just don't remember them). Perhaps you're thinking of Mirkwood, which (in the form Myrkvidhr) does appear in Norse (or more generally Germanic) legend? DS ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Purely invented or adapted? Date: 23 Oct 1999 20:05:05 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 19 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uso32lzqm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7ufrph$ijf$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3810dee2.0@flint.sentex.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Robert B. Marks" writes: > > A not-so-good > source is David Day's "Tolkien's Ring," which for some strange reason > retells the story of Volsunga Saga at least three times. "at least three" ? Exactly three: - Ch 5 the original norse/heathen Volsung saga - Ch 10 the medieval/christian sanitised adoption in the "Nibelungenlied" - Ch 15 a 19th century/romantic adaption in R Wagners "The Ring o t N" And yes, that does make the book repetiti[titititi]ve. BTW: I regard the original as better than either of the 2 cover versions. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/