From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 13:13:35 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3d.0c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 8 Oct 1999 17:15:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! Forgive me if someone has already put forth this possibility, but I don't have time to keep up with this group all the time. I think the part of Eowyn will be greatly cut back or eliminated, and Arwen will be the one who kills the Nazgul. The fact that they are trying to play up the romance between Aragorn and Arwen, and that they have described Arwen as "a young elf warrior and princess" hint at that. I don't know what they're going to do with Faramir and Eowyn, but I think it will be Aragorn and Arwen Kissing on the walls of Gondor! Am I crazy here, or does that sound like a possiblity? Johnathan ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 14:22:48 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 19 Message-ID: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tlbp4$15k_018@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3d.0c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 8 Oct 1999 18:24:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > > In article <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George wrote: > >Am I crazy here, or does that sound like a possiblity? > > It sounds like a possibility, but I'm not too concerned yet. Let's see how > the Uma Thurman situation turns out before we start organizing the lynch > mob. Ok, but the alternative seems to be that they'll come up with some "warrior" material of their own, which I'm not sure I like any better. I guess I'll have to wait along with everyone else and see what happens! Johnathan (by the way, sorry if this message seems to appear twice! I had a glitch here) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7tlbp4$15k_018@Org.xenite.org> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:05:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.230 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 939405984 207.224.147.230 (Fri, 08 Oct 1999 13:06:24 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 13:06:24 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com>, Johnathan George wrote: >Am I crazy here, or does that sound like a possiblity? It sounds like a possibility, but I'm not too concerned yet. Let's see how the Uma Thurman situation turns out before we start organizing the lynch mob. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "John Chivers" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:55:54 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-ELN-Date: 9 Oct 1999 21:50:55 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sat Oct 9 14:55:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0097.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news.ndh.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail If you're crazy, then so am I...the exact same thought occured to me today--I scanned this ng to see if anybody else had thought of it, and here we are. Here's why I'm sure it's going to happen: 1. It explains the "Arwen: Warrior Princess" dialog that's leaking out of New Zealand 2. It combines two minor characters into one major character (and Arwen's role in the book would have to be padded considerably to even be called "minor") 3. One less actor to cast 4. Makes the male lead's love interest a more interesting role 5. Explains why they cast a star as Arwen and haven't cast Eowyn at all yet And I'm not sure this is a Bad Thing; if I were Peter Jackson, I'd probably do the same thing. It happens all the time when epics are transferred to the Silver Screen. (Bakshi did it in his version, giving Glorfindel's part to Legolas. Shrug. Big deal.) Johnathan George wrote in message <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com>... >After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think >that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! Forgive me if >someone has already put forth this possibility, but I don't have time to >keep up with this group all the time. I think the part of Eowyn will be >greatly cut back or eliminated, and Arwen will be the one who kills the >Nazgul. > >The fact that they are trying to play up the romance between Aragorn and >Arwen, and that they have described Arwen as "a young elf warrior and >princess" hint at that. I don't know what they're going to do with >Faramir and Eowyn, but I think it will be Aragorn and Arwen Kissing on >the walls of Gondor! > >Am I crazy here, or does that sound like a possiblity? > >Johnathan ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 48 Date: 9 Oct 1999 16:17:18 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939511042 207.212.198.18 (Sat, 09 Oct 1999 16:17:22 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 16:17:22 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:55:54 -0700, John Chivers wrote: >If you're crazy, then so am I...the exact same thought occured to me >today--I scanned this ng to see if anybody else had thought of it, and here >we are. > >Here's why I'm sure it's going to happen: > >1. It explains the "Arwen: Warrior Princess" dialog that's leaking out of >New Zealand >2. It combines two minor characters into one major character (and Arwen's >role in the book would have to be padded considerably to even be called >"minor") That's a definite Bad Thing, because it actively contradicts the plot of the books. That's like getting rid of Guildenstern and having Rosencrantz come back as the gravedigger because all that stuff about Hamlet having him executed was irrelevant to the main plot. Well, maybe it is. If you really don't want to cast Rosencrantz and Guildenstern or distract the audience with these two random characters, delete them. Just remove all the references to them. Then people who haven't seen the complete version of _Hamlet_ yet won't be confused by the changes in the plot. >3. One less actor to cast Come on. New Line's already spending half a sagan on this. One more actor can't be that expensive, especially if Jackson remembers that he was originally going to cast people nobody's heard of. >4. Makes the male lead's love interest a more interesting role You know what I'd do? Put Arwen in the Grey Company. Let her hand-deliver her standard. Let her have her fighting scene at Pelargir, or at the Pelennor Fields. It's completely out of character for Elrond to allow her to do that, but it's better than removing Eowyn. >5. Explains why they cast a star as Arwen and haven't cast Eowyn at all yet > >And I'm not sure this is a Bad Thing; if I were Peter Jackson, I'd probably I'm entirely sure it's a Bad Thing. >do the same thing. It happens all the time when epics are transferred to >the Silver Screen. (Bakshi did it in his version, giving Glorfindel's part >to Legolas. Shrug. Big deal.) Bakshi's version sucks. I don't think it's a good idea for Jackson to emulate something that sucks. ###### From: "Dave Casper" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:15:00 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 10 Oct 1999 06:15:07 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sat Oct 9 23:25:02 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0806.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Johnathan George wrote in message news:37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com... > After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! Forgive me if > someone has already put forth this possibility, but I don't have time to > keep up with this group all the time. I think the part of Eowyn will be > greatly cut back or eliminated, and Arwen will be the one who kills the > Nazgul. I certainly hope you're not right. The 20-questions interviews I've put my fears at rest about major violence being done to the plot. PJ said Arwen would be given a larger role. He specifically said that developing some characters more would be OK, but that major changes (like adding her to the Fellowship) were out of the question. Having her kill the Witchking would be (nearly) as much of an outrage, and I really don't think they'll do it. I think it makes sense to introduce the Arwen/Aragorn relationship earlier - it will make his interaction with Eowyn more poignant. I do wish they could do it in a way more in line with the original text - there is nothing in LotR that suggests Arwen ever picked up a sword... OTOH, it isn't too hard to imagine that Aragorn and Arwen had some adventures together during the time prior to the book. Having her instead of Glorfindel at the battle of the ford is kind of a stretch, but I hope that isn't the tip of the iceberg. Dave nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu (make obvious change to use above address) ###### Sender: matt@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> From: matty i Message-ID: <87u2o06qkj.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070096 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.96) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:51:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.29.24 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 939513070 151.201.29.24 (Sat, 09 Oct 1999 19:51:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 19:51:10 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) writes: > On Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:55:54 -0700, John Chivers wrote: > >4. Makes the male lead's love interest a more interesting role > > You know what I'd do? Put Arwen in the Grey Company. Let her hand-deliver > her standard. Let her have her fighting scene at Pelargir, or at the > Pelennor Fields. It's completely out of character for Elrond to allow her > to do that, but it's better than removing Eowyn. here's the reason i don't like it. in a tale that's already very male centric (with all of the characters, there's only two interesting female characters - galadriel and eowyn), why not increase the roles of the two interesting female characters. the way to deal with this is not by creating a part that doesn't exist, it's by giving a bigger role to eowyn (and, if need be, faramir, for a love interest) and galadriel (which shouldn't be hard). what's wrong with arwen not bein' involved in the story. considering about 1 in 100 parts for women in hollywood are actually interesting, i see nothing wrong with aragorn goin' for arwen just 'cause she's beautiful and the daughter of someone important (that's all anyone needs know anyways). take the really, really interesting parts of eowyn and galadriel and play 'em up. make the lorien time longer and make the visions in the mirror more important (even if they have to change). make galadriel similar to obi-wan in esb and rotj ... every time lembas is eaten or the silmarillian is fingered have her appear. make eowyn's struggle with leavin' her people important. i'm more interested in eowyn than boromir, replace his screen time (if he gets any in the first place) with hers. increase faramir's role by playin' up the ithilien battle and make him deservin' of one of the most heroic characters in the book (of which eowyn is). *sigh* and if you _really_ need a main character to have a love interest, play up sam and frodo ... *duck* j/k ... either way, i'd much rather see eowyn's role upgraded than arwen's role expanded. -- tom: i am awake. ~ matty i barkeep: your eyes are closed. ~ tom: who you gonna believe? ~ mi001h@mail.rochester.edu.spam.bad - miller's crossing ~ ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 10 Date: 10 Oct 1999 00:00:41 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939538846 207.212.198.18 (Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:00:46 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:00:46 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:41:31 -0400, Jeff Blanks wrote: >mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: > >> Bakshi's version sucks. I don't think it's a good idea for Jackson to >> emulate something that sucks. > >It sucks for entirely different reasons than that particular point. Yes, but it sucks for that reason too. It sucks for a whole lot of reasons. ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:41:31 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.83.cb Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 10 Oct 1999 04:41:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: > John Chivers wrote: > >It happens all the time when epics are transferred to > >the Silver Screen. (Bakshi did it in his version, > >giving Glorfindel's part to Legolas. Shrug. Big deal.) > Bakshi's version sucks. I don't think it's a good idea for Jackson to > emulate something that sucks. It sucks for entirely different reasons than that particular point. (NOTE ON SAID POINT: Having both those Elves would be a good idea, IMHO--you need a decent spectrum and balance of each "race," and having only Legolas up there getting major screen time makes me want as many different Elves up there as possible. Of course, it's five times worse for the Dwarves--only two have speaking roles in the whole book, IIRC.) -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:26:49 -0400 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: iEMgaydlBlBP1Q46YT0KcPHFey0l10Ya7znDy6dpng4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 1999 05:34:50 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Jeff Blanks wrote: > (Bakshi did it in his version, > > >giving Glorfindel's part to Legolas. Shrug. Big deal.) > > > Bakshi's version sucks. I don't think it's a good idea for Jackson to > > emulate something that sucks. > > It sucks for entirely different reasons than that particular point. On the contrary, I find it to be one of the most annoying things about the movie. Here we have this mighty Elf-warrior, so virtuous that he *alone* among the Elves gets reincarnated and sent back to Middle-Earth, and he's replaced by C3P0. And now he's going to be replaced by Arwen, Warrior-Princess. He's fought a *Balrog*, for Heaven's sake, and he loses out to a GIRL! Played by Liv Tyler, no less! -- -- FotW, charter member, Glorfindel Fan Club "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 16:20:46 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7tq41k$q50$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b019.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 939561844 26784 195.167.119.147 (10 Oct 1999 13:24:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 1999 13:24:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Flame of the West wrote in message news:38002397.7F030B25@erols.com... > > On the contrary, I find it to be one of the most annoying things > about the movie. Here we have this mighty Elf-warrior, so virtuous > that he *alone* among the Elves gets reincarnated and sent back > to Middle-Earth, and he's replaced by C3P0. > > And now he's going to be replaced by Arwen, Warrior-Princess. > He's fought a *Balrog*, for Heaven's sake, and he loses out to > a GIRL! Played by Liv Tyler, no less! It's better that Glorfindel he replaced by Arwen, rather than be replaced by Legolas. As Michael (and I think others as well) said, the character that they meet must be one that Aragorn knows - not the unknown Legolas. If Glorfindel must be left out for any reason, Arwen is the best character to replace him. But placing Arwen in Eowyn's position is very bad (I doubt I will go to see the movie if they remove Eowyn and replace her with Arwen). It makes Arwen the token stereotypical 'girl' of the adventure, rather than one of many female characters each important in their own way, not to mention all the other absurd changes that will need to be made to the storyline... Aris Katsaris ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 11 Oct 1999 00:47:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 73 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Dave Casper" writes: > > Johnathan George wrote in message > news:37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com... > > After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think > > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! Definitively possible. > > keep up with this group all the time. I think the part of Eowyn will be > > greatly cut back or eliminated, and Arwen will be the one who kills the > > Nazgul. Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). > would be given a larger role. Glorfindel and Eowyn. Would make hers definitely larger. > He specifically said that developing some > characters more would be OK, but that major changes (like adding her to the > Fellowship) were out of the question. And adding to the gray company? Her brothers are in there anyway (hey, more characters to eliminate for (budget-) limited play-time!). > I think it makes sense to introduce the Arwen/Aragorn relationship earlier - > it will make his interaction with Eowyn more poignant. Sure. But is there enough space in 6 hours for that? This is an film about beating Mordor, not an film about women in an mens society. That is an side issue, to be cut like Bombadil. Expect massive cuts to be sacrificed on the altar of big money. > do it in a way more in line with the original text - there is nothing in > LotR that suggests Arwen ever picked up a sword... And unfortunately nothing that explicitely says she didn't. Anyway even if it did say so, he could still change her. He did say this film is "based on", not an exact literature film. And PJ is not Brannagh. > OTOH, it isn't too hard > to imagine that Aragorn and Arwen had some adventures together during the > time prior to the book. That would add scenes. He is allready cutting Bombadil. So adding text is surely out. > Having her instead of Glorfindel at the battle of > the ford is kind of a stretch, but I hope that isn't the tip of the iceberg. I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made Bram Stokers Dracula, it took many Frankenseins until Kenneth Brannagh made Marys Shellys Frankenstein. Generally true filmings only happen after the story is roughly known and the real thing becomes an focus of interest. It may well take many LOTRs until Tolkiens Lord of the Rings is possible. This is the world of film, where the box office rules. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: prembone@excitebitespam.com (Prembone) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:16:03 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Oct 10 15:25:06 1999 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <87u2o06qkj.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Organization: The Rescue Frodo SWAT Team X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-005mnminnp289.dialsprint.net X-ELN-Date: 10 Oct 1999 22:21:51 GMT Message-ID: <38010fda.186971978@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:51:10 GMT, matty i wrote: >and if you _really_ need a main character to have a love interest, >play up sam and frodo ... *duck* Oh, yeah, baby, yeah!!!! Somewhere, Awesome Powers is grinning... "And I hope my Sam's behaved hisself and given satisfaction?" "Perfect satisfaction, Mr. Gamgee," said Frodo. MythTakes: Tolkien Parody http://mythtakes.tsx.org ~~~Where the Tildeful People go~~~ ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:34:34 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 9 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > On Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:55:54 -0700, John Chivers wrote: > >If you're crazy, then so am I...the exact same thought occured to me > >today--I scanned this ng to see if anybody else had thought of it, and here > >we are. > > > >Here's why I'm sure it's going to happen: > > > >1. It explains the "Arwen: Warrior Princess" dialog that's leaking out of > >New Zealand > >2. It combines two minor characters into one major character (and Arwen's > >role in the book would have to be padded considerably to even be called > >"minor") > > That's a definite Bad Thing, because it actively contradicts the plot of the > books. Yes, it would be a Bad Thing. But there is no need to get upset about it because it is not going to happen. All evidence indicates that Eowyn will not only be in the movie, but may even have her role slightly enhanced. New Line has not yet released an entire cast list. That is the only "evidence" that has yet been presented to show that Eowyn will not be in the film. But he cast list released so far also lacks names for Theoden, Denethor, Faramir, and Eomer. Eowyn will not play a major role until the second or third film. There is no ugent need for them to release her name yet. -- John Whelan ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:42:37 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 15 Message-ID: <38016ABD.7ECB3560@virginia.edu> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-32.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail Lord Jubjub wrote: > > Another scene that she appears likely to appear in (having read an > audition script) is Helm's Deep. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ... (Larry runs off a cliff after running blindly around screaming insanely at the thought of Arwen in the battle of Helm's Deep.) -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 11 Oct 1999 01:00:20 GMT References: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19991010210020.16252.00000796@ng-fg1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made >Bram Stokers Dracula, Coppola made Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, no matter what title he stuck on it. Junk, just like all the others, if more prettily filmed. --- FernWithy ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:04:33 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 95 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 11 Oct 1999, Neil Franklin wrote: > "Dave Casper" writes: > > > > Johnathan George wrote in message > > news:37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com... > > > After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think > > > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! > > Definitively possible. Not likely at all. This is a saga sorely lacking in significant female characters. They will not cut out one of the only significant females to appear. > > > keep up with this group all the time. I think the part of Eowyn will be > > > greatly cut back or eliminated, and Arwen will be the one who kills the > > > Nazgul. > > Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And > gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) > would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and > films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). Having the audience be aware of Arwen helps Eowyn's love for Aragorn become more hopeless and more poignant. Eliminating Arwen would leave the typical audience member ultimately annoyed at Aragorn for his rejection of Eowyn, and annoyed at the film for failing to provide the expected romantic payoff at the end. [snip] > > Having her instead of Glorfindel at the battle of > > the ford is kind of a stretch, but I hope that isn't the tip of the iceberg. > > I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made > Bram Stokers Dracula, You place too much significance in a title. Coppola's version was not very faithful to the original, and his attempt to focus on Dracula as some sort of romantic hero, with the slogan "Love Never Dies", was completely and totally off base from the spirit of the book. In my opinion, Mel Brooke's version was more faithful than Coppola's, as was the Lugosi version, the Hammer version, and the Frank Langella version, to name just four off the top of my head. > it took many Frankenseins until Kenneth Brannagh > made Marys Shellys Frankenstein. Which should have been called "Kenneth Brannagh's Frankenstein" as one critic remarked at the time. It also sucked. Shelly's book, BTW, is one of the most awesome horror stories I have ever read. The girl makes Stoker look like a wimp. I have yet to see an adaptation that does it justice. Oddly enough, here is a book where it ought to be possible to do a fairly faithful adapataion, but noone has even tried. Here's some hints to how it should be done: The monster should be HUGE. The monster should be FAST. The monster should be SMART. You should almost never see the monster because he is STEALTHY like a PHANTOM. Tell the story from the POV of young Frankenstein, NOT from the POV of the monster. This is how Shelly it, and it was what made the story SCARY SCARY SCARY. By following Shelly, you also follow one of the cardinal rules of good horror films: DON'T SHOW THE MONSTER. Not only have all film versions broken this rule, but, by they go further to show things from the monsters POV. Showing things from the monster's POV immediately ruins the scare, especially if you portray him as a poor unfortunate baby and make the audience feel sorry for him, as does practically every film version ever made. Shelly knew better. Only near the end, when Frankenstein finally meets his creation, does the monster get to tell his side of the story. But by this time, the tale only serves to deepen the horror. For purpose of the monster's self-pitying tale is to justify the horrendous evil that he has already done and intends to continue doing. It's purpose is to emphasise to Frankenstein that he too is partly responsible for this horrendous evil. Its purpose is to justify the monsters hatred and lust for vengeance. > Generally true filmings only happen > after the story is roughly known and the real thing becomes an focus > of interest. > > It may well take many LOTRs until Tolkiens Lord of the Rings is > possible. This is the world of film, where the box office rules. There are, of course, no such thing as "true filmings". Even the best adaptations are still adaptations. -- John Whelan ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:08:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.148.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 939607793 207.224.148.102 (Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:09:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:09:53 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And >gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) >would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and >films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). There are three love stories in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The only not fully documented in the main text itself is the story of Aragorn and Arwen. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Sender: matt@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <19991010210020.16252.00000796@ng-fg1.aol.com> From: matty i Message-ID: <87aepqwrvu.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070096 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.96) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:30:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.29.24 X-Trace: typhoon2.gnilink.net 939609019 151.201.29.24 (Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:30:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:30:19 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.flash.net!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon2.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) writes: > > > >I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made > >Bram Stokers Dracula, > > Coppola made Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, no matter what title he stuck on > it. Junk, just like all the others, if more prettily filmed. amen. -- tom: i am awake. ~ matty i barkeep: your eyes are closed. ~ tom: who you gonna believe? ~ mi001h@mail.rochester.edu.spam.bad - miller's crossing ~ ###### From: jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: The Kingdom of the Absurd X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 52 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:37:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.30.68.222 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 939609477 209.30.68.222 (Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:37:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:37:57 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > "Dave Casper" writes: > > > > Johnathan George wrote in message > > news:37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com... > > > After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think > > > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! > > Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And > gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) > would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and > films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). > > would be given a larger role. There has been talk of Uma being Eowyn. This is from De Luca if I remember right. If the character of Eowyn is in the screenplay, then I can't imagine the battle between her and the Witch-King being given to Arwen. > Glorfindel and Eowyn. Would make hers definitely larger. Glorfindel's scene at the crossing is a bit of a throw-away. There is nothing that demands that Glorfindel be the elf on the horse. If Arwen were the one, you could introduce (or extend) the romantic angle without worrying about time. > > He specifically said that developing some > > characters more would be OK, but that major changes (like adding her to the > > Fellowship) were out of the question. > > And adding to the gray company? Her brothers are in there anyway (hey, > more characters to eliminate for (budget-) limited play-time!). > > I think it makes sense to introduce the Arwen/Aragorn relationship earlier - > > it will make his interaction with Eowyn more poignant. This makes a lot more sense than having her take Eowyn's place since Eowyn's battle precludes Aragorn while having her ride with Aragorn with the Gray Company would allow PJ to show the romantic angle without having to add whole scenes. Remember, the reason JRRT never showed the romance between A & A is because it happened before the story started. PJ must then show a lot of backstory or place Arwen into some of the other scenes. Another scene that she appears likely to appear in (having read an audition script) is Helm's Deep. This means that A & A would remain together from that point, through Orthanc and on with the Gray Company. PJ would be able to show the romance without ever having to add any scenes. Even Eowyn's motivations could remain largely intact. I have no problem with Arwen's expanded role if this is PJ's plan. -- Lord Jubjub, Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe ###### Sender: matt@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> From: matty i Message-ID: <871zb2wr7d.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070096 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.96) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:45:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.29.24 X-Trace: typhoon2.gnilink.net 939609900 151.201.29.24 (Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:45:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 22:45:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.ecrc.net!nntp.abs.net!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone2.gnilink.net!typhoon2.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: > In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > >Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And > >gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) > >would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and > >films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). > > There are three love stories in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The only not fully > documented in the main text itself is the story of Aragorn and Arwen. i would certainly argue that the eowyn/faramir love story is, by far, the most interesting. maybe it's 'cause i always really dug faramir, but i think it's 'cause eowyn is the third most interesting lady in all of tolkien's work (behind luthien and galadriel). a) she actively strode with the will of a wizard (saruman) by fighting grima b) she forsook her people to go into war (to kill herself) c) she fell for the biggest, baddest man in the whole book, and was rejected d) she got the most important kill in lotr e) she did all this despite the fact that she was just a mortal women of a generally, unheralded sect (though i'm not sure how her line traces _way_ back). -- tom: i am awake. ~ matty i barkeep: your eyes are closed. ~ tom: who you gonna believe? ~ mi001h@mail.rochester.edu.spam.bad - miller's crossing ~ ###### Sender: matt@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> From: matty i Message-ID: <87so3ivblu.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070096 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.96) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 03:07:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.29.24 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 939611234 151.201.29.24 (Sun, 10 Oct 1999 23:07:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 23:07:14 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) writes: > In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > wrote: > This makes a lot more sense than having her take Eowyn's place since > Eowyn's battle precludes Aragorn while having her ride with Aragorn with > the Gray Company would allow PJ to show the romantic angle without having > to add whole scenes. Remember, the reason JRRT never showed the romance > between A & A is because it happened before the story started. PJ must > then show a lot of backstory or place Arwen into some of the other scenes. why? why can't aragorn just marry her 'cause she's the most attractive (both physically and in blood) bride in middle earth? -- tom: i am awake. ~ matty i barkeep: your eyes are closed. ~ tom: who you gonna believe? ~ mi001h@mail.rochester.edu.spam.bad - miller's crossing ~ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Shimpei Yamashita Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> <7tq41k$q50$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: shimpei@gol.com (Shimpei Yamashita) Message-ID: Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 04:25:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.42.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 939615953 203.216.42.65 (Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:25:53 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:25:53 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!POSTED.nnrp.gol.com!not-for-mail Aris Katsaris writes: > >It's better that Glorfindel he replaced by Arwen, rather than be replaced >by Legolas. As Michael (and I think others as well) said, the character >that they meet must be one that Aragorn knows - not the unknown Legolas. >If Glorfindel must be left out for any reason, Arwen is the best character >to replace him. Aragorn has already been to Thranduil's domain at least once before, to deliver Gollum, and it isn't unreasonable to assume that he had visited the place prior to that (after all, he claims to have visited just about every other place in Middle-Earth). So it isn't unreasonable to assume that Aragorn knew the son of Thranduil at sight. Here is an idea I just came up with: replace Glorfindel with Elrond himself. Although it would be insane to have Elrond leave the safety to Rivendell, I think it's a little less insane than the "Arwen, Warrior-Princess" nonsense. -- Shimpei Yamashita ###### Sender: matt@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> From: matty i Message-ID: <873dviphxf.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070096 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.96) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 05:47:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.29.24 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 939620831 151.201.29.24 (Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:47:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:47:11 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail John Whelan writes: > On 9 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > > But he cast list released so far also lacks names for Theoden, Denethor, > Faramir, and Eomer. Eowyn will not play a major role until the second or > third film. There is no ugent need for them to release her name yet. *sigh* ... it was much more fun without sense and realism thrown into the argument. of course the most logical answer is that eowyn won't be appearing in the movie about to be shot and thus there's no rush to cast her. though they do still plan to shoot all three movies back to back to back, no? -- tom: i am awake. ~ matty i barkeep: your eyes are closed. ~ tom: who you gonna believe? ~ mi001h@mail.rochester.edu.spam.bad - miller's crossing ~ ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 16:59:46 +1000 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 939625192 9508 129.78.104.134 (11 Oct 1999 06:59:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1999 06:59:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user In article , jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: > In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > > "Dave Casper" writes: > > > He specifically said that developing some > > > characters more would be OK, but that major changes (like adding her > > > to the Fellowship) were out of the question. > > > > And adding to the gray company? Her brothers are in there anyway (hey, > > more characters to eliminate for (budget-) limited play-time!). > > > I think it makes sense to introduce the Arwen/Aragorn relationship > > > earlier - it will make his interaction with Eowyn more poignant. > > This makes a lot more sense than having her take Eowyn's place since > Eowyn's battle precludes Aragorn while having her ride with Aragorn with > the Gray Company would allow PJ to show the romantic angle without having > to add whole scenes. Remember, the reason JRRT never showed the romance > between A & A is because it happened before the story started. PJ must > then show a lot of backstory or place Arwen into some of the other scenes. > > Another scene that she appears likely to appear in (having read an > audition script) is Helm's Deep. This means that A & A would remain > together from that point, through Orthanc and on with the Gray Company. > PJ would be able to show the romance without ever having to add any > scenes. Even Eowyn's motivations could remain largely intact. I have no > problem with Arwen's expanded role if this is PJ's plan. On the other hand, that could mean a few changes of other sorts towards the end of the third movie. For example, in the book Aragorn does not marry Arwen until some weeks *after* his coronation; and when Arwen does come she arrives with a veritable host of Elves in train, including Galadriel, Celeborn, and Elrond. Having Arwen in Minas Tirith would seem to lessen the motivation for all those other Elves to make the trip, especially if by the time they arrive the royal wedding was already over, which in turn could affect other parts of the ending. In particular, the Scouring of the Shire. (That is to say, an earlier wedding may mean the Hobbits start back for the Shire sooner. Which could well mean, for a start they arrive back at the Orthanc before Saruman has a chance to persuade the Ents to set him & Wormtongue free. If Elrond & co. are not available to go with them, that may also mean they might decide go up via the Greenway to Bree rather than via Rivendell. All of which may mean they could end up back in the Shire a lot sooner than they do in the book, possibly even before Saruman, with all sorts of ramifications. In fact now I come to think about, didn't that casting breakdown posted some time back say that Bilbo was to appear in movies I & II, but not III?) -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/ ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:01:42 +1000 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 939625308 9508 129.78.104.134 (11 Oct 1999 07:01:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1999 07:01:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user In article <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org>, Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) wrote: > In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > wrote: > >Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And > >gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) > >would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and > >films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). > > There are three love stories in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The only not fully > documented in the main text itself is the story of Aragorn and Arwen. Three? If by the third, you're referring to Sam & Rose that isn't exactly "fully documented" in the main text either. -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 12 Oct 1999 00:34:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 93 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uso3hzfv6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 John Whelan writes: > > On 11 Oct 1999, Neil Franklin wrote: > > > "Dave Casper" writes: > > > > > > > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! > > > > Definitively possible. > > Not likely at all. This is a saga sorely lacking in significant female > characters. They will not cut out one of the only significant females to > appear. We can only hope for that. > > Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And > > gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) > > would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and > > films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). > > Having the audience be aware of Arwen helps Eowyn's love for Aragorn > become more hopeless and more poignant. Assuming the Eowyn/Aragorn story is not on the dropped scenes list. I hope it is not dropped, but you never know. > Eliminating Arwen would leave the > typical audience member ultimately annoyed at Aragorn for his rejection of > Eowyn, and annoyed at the film for failing to provide the expected > romantic payoff at the end. So I suppose there is some hope for this part. > > I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made > > Bram Stokers Dracula, > > You place too much significance in a title. Coppola's version was not > very faithful to the original, A lot more faithfull than any other I have seen (admittently I have not seen every one of the many (over hundred?) versions made. I have though read the book (though only once, so I would not have noticed small details). And FFC at least follows the storyline and gets the geography right. > sort of romantic hero, with the slogan "Love Never Dies", was completely As you saied at the end, there are no 100% true filmings. But this one came a lot nearer than most others. > > made Marys Shellys Frankenstein. > > adaptation that does it justice. Oddly enough, here is a book where it > ought to be possible to do a fairly faithful adapataion, but noone has > even tried. Which I suppose proves my point that there is not much hope in getting a true filming. Particularly the second time the book is gettign filmed. > The monster should be HUGE. The monster should be FAST. The monster > should be SMART. You should almost never see the monster because he is > STEALTHY like a PHANTOM. So we can take hope, in that Sauron has not yet been filled? > Shelly knew better. And Tolkien, to be back on topic. > > Generally true filmings only happen > > after the story is roughly known and the real thing becomes an focus > > of interest. > > > > It may well take many LOTRs until Tolkiens Lord of the Rings is > > possible. This is the world of film, where the box office rules. > > There are, of course, no such thing as "true filmings". Even the best > adaptations are still adaptations. But later ones seem to stand a better chance. And this is only the second. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 12 Oct 1999 00:40:13 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 26 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) writes: > > In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > > > >would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and > >films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). > > There are three love stories in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. The only not fully > documented in the main text itself is the story of Aragorn and Arwen. Arwen and Aragorn: 2 lovers find together through all the problems the world throws at them. Eowyn and Aragorn: really only 2 scenes and only one of them is in love. More about love not returned. Not happy end stuff. Eowyn and Faramir: my nominee for most unbelievable part of LoTR. Warrior women turns to housewife - fast. I would regard A&A as the only real love story in the book (albeit mainly in the appendix). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: "Gary E. Masters" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:37:42 -0500 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a2e78a.tamiu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1999 13:41:45 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: Johnathan George Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!solomon.io.com!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Johnathan George wrote: > After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! Forgive me if > someone has already put forth this possibility, but I don't have time to > keep up with this group all the time. I think the part of Eowyn will be > greatly cut back or eliminated, and Arwen will be the one who kills the > Nazgul. > > The fact that they are trying to play up the romance between Aragorn and > Arwen, and that they have described Arwen as "a young elf warrior and > princess" hint at that. I don't know what they're going to do with > Faramir and Eowyn, but I think it will be Aragorn and Arwen Kissing on > the walls of Gondor! > > Am I crazy here, or does that sound like a possiblity? > > Johnathan One could do it, but it won't be pretty. The story fits together like a watch. There are aspects that will be totally ruined if this happens. Reminds me of the "secret weapon" they put into Dune when the real threat of the Duke was his relationship with his troops and his training programs. It can be a disaster to do this. Regards, Gary Masters ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:02:16 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 40 Message-ID: <7tsqrd$rgh$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> <7tq41k$q50$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-i186.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 939650733 28177 195.167.111.186 (11 Oct 1999 14:05:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1999 14:05:33 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!skynet.be!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Shimpei Yamashita wrote in message news:s1fst7.ah5.ln@son-of-bofh.co.jp... > Aris Katsaris writes: > > > >It's better that Glorfindel he replaced by Arwen, rather than be replaced > >by Legolas. As Michael (and I think others as well) said, the character > >that they meet must be one that Aragorn knows - not the unknown Legolas. > >If Glorfindel must be left out for any reason, Arwen is the best character > >to replace him. > > Aragorn has already been to Thranduil's domain at least once before, > to deliver Gollum, and it isn't unreasonable to assume that he had > visited the place prior to that (after all, he claims to have visited > just about every other place in Middle-Earth). So it isn't unreasonable > to assume that Aragorn knew the son of Thranduil at sight. Recognizing him and knowing him are different: Aragorn meets a friend - that's more important than whether he's male or female - or how far their relationship goes. Meeting Arwen seems to create fewer necessary changes to the narrative than meeting a stranger. (And I think that making Legolas an old friend of Aragorn would be a mistake in representing the relationships in the Fellowship) > Here is an idea I just came up with: replace Glorfindel with Elrond > himself. Although it would be insane to have Elrond leave the safety > to Rivendell, I think it's a little less insane than the "Arwen, > Warrior-Princess" nonsense. I think that would be even worse. Elrond wouldn't take the place of a simple scout - like Denethor he'd be behind the lines rather than fighting on the front. And Aragorn meeting his foster-father is even worse than meeting a stranger, if we want to talk accuracy-wise. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "A. Sieberson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:24:32 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: dante19.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp3.u.washington.edu 939691475 17508 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: faramir In-Reply-To: <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dante19.u.washington.edu!faramir > Eowyn and Faramir: my nominee for most unbelievable part of LoTR. > Warrior women turns to housewife - fast. Most unbelievable part? Oh, my virgin Tolkien eyes, corrupted. Ruined. It is a wonderfully believable part! Eowyn realizes that what she desired was not really Aragorn, but the glory and honor and battle-rush that all those male heroes she heard about growing up got to have, but which she didn't. And after proving finally that she too could fight as well as the men, and make her own great deeds to be sung, Eowyn also realises that battles and blood are not the be-all and end-all of life, and that she can accept, return, and give love of her own without having to compromise herself or be resigned to a life of slow decay in a musty hall, surrounded by some busy husband's hunting dogs? She "loved" Aragorn because of the idealistic glory, adventure and freedom which he represented: she learned that she could love Faramir, enjoy the glory and adventure she had earned for herself, and still have the freedom to pursue even better things. (Even Aragorn didn't want to fight forever.) As for becoming a housewife, do you honestly think that the shield-maiden of Rohan, slayer of the Nazgul King, and princess of Ithilien is going to settle down, stitching up Faramir's cape and basting his coney? There are quite a few ways to become a healer without throwing in the towel and acting meek when a man walks past! IMHO, Eowyn's "coming of age", so to speak, is the most feminist part of the entire trilogy. Not only does she realise that she can do things just as well as the men can, but she can also choose to do whatever she damn well pleases. If that isn't the goal of feminism than I don't know what is. Annie pax tecum ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:06:10 -0400 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: RmBJMDmqMD1IfUxzwlNaMKjhMt1xC9SgQkC0xuG8/xI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 1999 01:08:36 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Arwen stay at Rivendell, and make Aragorn's standard. Eowen should fall in love with Aragorn, go into battle, kill the WK, and fall for Faramir. Bilbo should be in the III. BTW, how can Bilbo appear in the II when he has no part? Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: CLV1@compuservvvvve.com (CleV) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:54:22 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: <38025c6a.13390350@news.compuserve.com> References: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <19991010210020.16252.00000796@ng-fg1.aol.com> <87aepqwrvu.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.211.72.214 X-Trace: ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 939678919 8397 212.211.72.214 (11 Oct 1999 21:55:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1999 21:55:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:30:19 GMT, matty i wrote: >fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) writes: > >> > >> >I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made >> >Bram Stokers Dracula, >> >> Coppola made Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, no matter what title he stuck on >> it. Junk, just like all the others, if more prettily filmed. > >amen. Watched that again recently and only just realised that it was made AS a B-movie! ###### From: CLV1@compuservvvvve.com (CleV) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 21:56:48 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38025cd5.13497797@news.compuserve.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.211.72.214 X-Trace: ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com 939679066 8397 212.211.72.214 (11 Oct 1999 21:57:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 1999 21:57:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:37:57 GMT, jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) wrote: >In article <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > wrote: > >> "Dave Casper" writes: >> > >> > Johnathan George wrote in message >> > news:37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com... >> > > After reading the press release that just came out it hit me... I think >> > > that they're going to give Eowyn's major parts to Arwen! >> >> Eliminated if anything. Reducing does not save an character. And >> gettign rid of Arwen (the right thing from the books perspective) >> would be an no-no in film circles (it is the only love story, and >> films need them (so think the people deciding about financing films)). >> > would be given a larger role. > >There has been talk of Uma being Eowyn. This is from De Luca if I >remember right. If the character of Eowyn is in the screenplay, then I >can't imagine the battle between her and the Witch-King being given to >Arwen. Uma Thurman is completely wrong for Eowyn - she's just not a (for want of a better word) spunky warrior. ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 22:43:07 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.80.fd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 12 Oct 1999 02:43:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-x.support.nl!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks Neil Franklin wrote: > Eowyn and Faramir: my nominee for most unbelievable part of LoTR. > Warrior women turns to housewife - fast. But JRRT addresses this himself in the dialogue. -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:13:23 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.55.c4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 12 Oct 1999 03:13:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > Here we have this mighty Elf-warrior, so virtuous > that he *alone* among the Elves gets reincarnated and sent back > to Middle-Earth, But we didn't "know" that at the time. He was simply represented as An Elven Lord Of Some Sort. Besides, I don't know if getting sent back to Earth from Tolkien's Tir na nOg would necessarily be considered a reward! [NOTE: In this rough, khaki-pants-and-Caesar-hair day and time, it would take at least some _cojones_ to put a character like Glorfindel on the screen, at least as I imagine him (which is all I've got after all). He'd be just about too (unselfconsciously) _feminine_ for lots of people to take. Not "swishy" or a "camp queen" or anything like that, obviously, but _beautiful_ in a way that people with Adam's apples _aren't_supposed_to_be_. It's hard to explain. He's a bit of a fancy boy, but more self-secure than that; he neither takes orders nor is he inclined to give them. (You'll notice that, unlike the Orcs of Isengard, he doesn't _make_ anybody go on a forced march--he just points out that there's a moral imperative to do so.) Still, "warrior" isn't the first thing that occurs to my mind when he's introduced by Tolkien. "Herald" or "princely figure," maybe.] > and he's replaced by C3P0. The way I see it, the two characters were conflated into one, named "Legolas." If he'd been named "Glorfindel," he would've looked and sounded the same. (In fact, the earliest manuscripts indicate that that was JRRT's original plan.) Unfortunately for us, I don't know if conflating the characters would really hurt the resulting story. OTOH, the character as presented in the story has _no_ background--we just know that he's a friend of Aragorn. Apparently Bakshi just punted on that question. That wouldn't be a problem with Arwen, at least. > And now he's going to be replaced by Arwen, Warrior-Princess. > He's fought a *Balrog*, for Heaven's sake, and he loses out to > a GIRL! Played by Liv Tyler, no less! You sound like the people of Nargothrond complaining about Luthien! But once again, remember that no one knew this when the book was published, and it didn't necessarily hurt anything. > -- FotW, charter member, Glorfindel Fan Club Personally, I think we should all stop beating around the (bilberry) bush and just admit that we _want_ him in there! It's obviously what the group's really thinking! ;-) So, some other solutions for those who insist on being pessimistic: 1. Just put them both in there. 2. Make Arwen one of the other scouts that Glorfindel. mentions. 3. Bring up Arwen in the conversations between Aragorn and Glorfindel. This at least would serve to set up Arwen's first appearance (and show that Aragorn has a reason of his own for trying to get to Rivendell). 4. Have Arwen catch up with the group _at_the_Ford_. Maybe she could lead the Rivendell advance party. -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:14:21 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <38016ABD.7ECB3560@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.55.c4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 12 Oct 1999 03:14:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks Larry Richards wrote: > AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ... LMAO! -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: "Dave Casper" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 00:01:59 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 12 Oct 1999 07:02:04 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Oct 12 00:05:09 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0808.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Ermanna wrote in message news:38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com... > Arwen stay at Rivendell, and make Aragorn's standard. This is an interesting discussion. I would be pretty appalled if (as someone suggested) Arwen is at Helm's Deep. It isn't hard to imagine them doing that, but I think it would debase the story. I can just see Arwen saving Aragorn's life, or vice-versa, which makes great drama but I want to see "The Lord of the Rings", not "Romancing the Ring"... I can see the need to make Arwen's character more visible in the story, but we're talking about the greatest work of fantasy literature ever written - it doesn't need to be improved. I would still prefer side stories of A&A together before the quest begins, or maybe flashbacks during the times that Aragorn is looking for courage or inspiration. It is totally believable that he drew great moral strength and inspiration from her, but to have them hacking their way through a sea of orcs to end the battle of Helm's Deep with a meaningful embrace is just nauseating. That isn't what the battle of Helm's Deep was about. > Eowen should > fall in love with Aragorn, go into battle, kill the WK, and fall for Faramir. Apropos Eowyn, I too have a hard time believing Uma Thurman. But listen up PJ - I've figured out the perfect actress for Eowyn: Sigourney Weaver! Think of it - she has plenty of experience in killing big, nasty, vile things (like the Witchking). She can easily pass for a man during the "Dernhelm" scenes. And it seems to me she has the right tough, hardened look, or would with longer hair or a blond wig (both of which are admittedly a bit hard to imagine, but still...) My alternate choices are Jamie-Lee Curtis or Jeri Ryan... -- Dave nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu (make obvious change to use above address) ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 00:31:41 -0400 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3802B9A4.61E7EB21@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: TQi+q+mdL9ER/kYV/OD7o6RkhndrUxOQ3GA5zxSFI6s= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 1999 04:42:42 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > Eowyn and Faramir: my nominee for most unbelievable part of LoTR. > Warrior women turns to housewife - fast. That would be pretty unbelievable, if that's what had happened. In fact, she became Princess of Ithilien and, I suspect, didn't do much housework. -- FotW "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." JRR Tolkien ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3802e74c.113806591@news.pc-intouch.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <871zb2wr7d.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 1-48.dialup.pc-intouch.com Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:50:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939714432 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 00:47:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 00:47:12 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!WCG2!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:45:00 GMT, matty i wrote: >e) she did all this despite the fact that she was just a mortal women >of a generally, unheralded sect (though i'm not sure how her line >traces _way_ back). There's some evidence that suggests she's a descendant of Elros. One of the kings of Gondor married one of his children off to a leader of the branch of the Northmen that eventually became the Rohirrim. It's suggested (though Tolkien does present this as sort of speculative) that Eorl the Young was descended from this leader, which would make the kings of Rohan a branch of the royal line of Númenor. So we might be able to trace Eowyn's ancestry to Lúthien, which would explain a lot. ###### From: kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 12 Oct 1999 12:25:15 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, LSU, Baton Rouge Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7tv9bb$5me$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oldbit.csc.lsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.uah.edu!SonOfMaze.dpo.uab.edu!juniper.cis.uab.edu!cis.uab.edu!news.lsu.edu!kuo In article <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Dave Casper wrote: >This is an interesting discussion. I would be pretty appalled if (as >someone suggested) Arwen is at Helm's Deep. It isn't hard to imagine them >doing that, but I think it would debase the story. I can just see Arwen >saving Aragorn's life, or vice-versa, which makes great drama but I want to >see "The Lord of the Rings", not "Romancing the Ring"... But wait--they could make Helm's Deep hit an iceberg and slowly sink into the North Atlantic. It'd be great! -- _____ Isaac Kuo kuo@bit.csc.lsu.edu http://www.csc.lsu.edu/~kuo __|_)o(_|__ ICQ 29055726 /___________\ "Mari-san... Yokatta... \=\)-----(/=/ ...Yokatta go-buji de..." - Karigari Hiroshi ###### From: elyse Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:31:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.151.225.202 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Oct 12 13:31:41 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.02; Windows 95) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 205.151.225.202 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDelyse1999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail In article <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Dave Casper" wrote: > we're talking about the greatest work of fantasy literature ever written - > it doesn't need to be improved. AMEN!!! > > >listen up > PJ - I've figured out the perfect actress for Eowyn: > > Sigourney Weaver! > Don't you think she's a bit old to be believable? Eowyn was only 24 or something like that. > > > My alternate choices are Jamie-Lee Curtis or Jeri Ryan... > Jamie-Lee Curits... a bit old, too, but we're getting there. Who's Jeri Ryan? > -- > Dave > nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu > (make obvious change to use above address) > > -- Eruve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie From: ross_presser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> User-Agent: Xnews/2.09.03 Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:02:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.162 X-Trace: typhoon2.gnilink.net 939736952 151.204.202.162 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:02:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:02:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon2.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.elyse1999@my-deja.com (elyse).wrote.posted.offered: >Jamie-Lee Curits... a bit old, too, but we're getting there. Who's Jeri >Ryan? Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then again, there's Lucy Lawless .... -- Ross Presser ross_presser@imtek.com "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 12 Oct 1999 23:22:59 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 81 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u9058xoi4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "A. Sieberson" writes: > > > Eowyn and Faramir: my nominee for most unbelievable part of LoTR. > > Warrior women turns to housewife - fast. > > Most unbelievable part? Oh, my virgin Tolkien eyes, corrupted. Ruined. Oops. :-) > It is a wonderfully believable part! To everyone, their part of the book. IIRC Tolkein said something to that effect, that there is no part that is not intensly loved by someone. > Eowyn realizes that what she desired > was not really Aragorn, but the glory and honor and battle-rush that all > those male heroes she heard about growing up got to have, Definitely. Aragorn only as symbol is not the problematic part. That is believable. Happens often. > men, and make her own great deeds to be sung, Eowyn also realises that > battles and blood are not the be-all and end-all of life, The problem is not in the realising per se (as have Aragorn and Faramir long before). Rather it is in its suddenness. We get an nice long deep build up of her psyche as the repressed warrior spirit. And then all of a sudden in one big go she just tips over: : Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at lest she understood it . : And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone in her. In two lines she is just swapped out. Somewhat unfitting for the big buildup. No 2 souls that have to be reconciled. No multiple discharges of will fighting will, with setbacks or anything like that. Just Mr rights magical touch and bang. "And that was it?" Total anticlimax. > As for becoming a housewife, do you honestly think that the shield-maiden > of Rohan, slayer of the Nazgul King, and princess of Ithilien is going to > settle down, stitching up Faramir's cape and basting his coney? Not quite that bad. But it does make a bit of an "taming of the shrew" impression. The "rebellious" woman submitting to "sense" after being enlightend by the right one. A few 1960s Doris Day films come to mind. > quite a few ways to become a healer without throwing in the towel and > acting meek when a man walks past! No need to be meek. But such an large change of personality at that speed just does not look right. > IMHO, Eowyn's "coming of age", so to speak, is the most feminist > part of the entire trilogy. Interesting. I allways saw in it the "woman get back to an socially accepted role" bit. Sure an healer is still an active woman (perhaps the most active allowed) but is still a lot less than men are allowed. It is just too fast for such an change. > Annie Who even posts as Faramir. Must have fallen deeply into love with Eowyn. Well she is a beauty and has brains and personality. I would definitely miss her if she is out of the film. But the fast resolution just feels wrong. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <871zb2wr7d.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> <3802e74c.113806591@news.pc-intouch.com> <7u050n$2d8_004@Org.xenite.org> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 17 Date: 12 Oct 1999 13:40:00 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939760803 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:40:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:40:03 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:17:27 GMT, Michael Martinez wrote: >>One of the kings of Gondor married one of his children off to a leader >>of the branch of the Northmen that eventually became the Rohirrim. >>It's suggested (though Tolkien does present this as sort of >>speculative) that Eorl the Young was descended from this leader, which >>would make the kings of Rohan a branch of the royal line of Númenor. > >Actually, it wouldn't work that way. No one descended from Vidugavia could >be descended from Elros through Vidugavia. However, Thengel married Morwen >of Lossarnach, who was descended from the house of Dol Amroth, who in turn >appear to have had some connection with Elendil's family and may >(therefore) have been Elrosians. I thought Vidugavia married a woman from the line of Elros, but I could be mistaken. In any case, it works out somehow. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 9 Date: 12 Oct 1999 13:58:52 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939761934 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:58:54 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:58:54 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:02:32 GMT, Ross Presser wrote: >Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. >I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then >again, there's Lucy Lawless .... How would Jeri Ryan disguise herself as a man? She'd need major surgery. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 31 Date: 12 Oct 1999 14:11:31 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939762697 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:11:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:11:37 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:13:23 -0400, Jeff Blanks wrote: >Personally, I think we should all stop beating around the (bilberry) bush >and just admit that we _want_ him in there! It's obviously what the >group's really thinking! ;-) So, some other solutions for those who >insist on being pessimistic: > >1. Just put them both in there. > >2. Make Arwen one of the other scouts that Glorfindel. mentions. > >3. Bring up Arwen in the conversations between Aragorn and Glorfindel. >This at least would serve to set up Arwen's first appearance (and show >that Aragorn has a reason of his own for trying to get to Rivendell). > >4. Have Arwen catch up with the group _at_the_Ford_. Maybe she could >lead the Rivendell advance party. I think the biggest problem with all these suggestions about Arwen as one of the scouts is that it's totally out of character for Elrond to send her out as a scout. He's very protective of Arwen, in part because he has some idea of what will happen if she's captured. (Remember Celebrian?) He's not going to send her out hunting Nazgul no matter how confident he is in her abilities. Of course, Thingol was very protective of Luthien, and it didn't slow her down much, but she was enough of a complete badass that *nobody* could have stopped her. She also knew her father was being an overbearing moron, so she didn't have any moral problems with the idea of running away from him. Arwen never seemed to figure this out. ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:52:07 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 87 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Dave Casper wrote: > Ermanna wrote in message > news:38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com... > > Arwen stay at Rivendell, and make Aragorn's standard. > > This is an interesting discussion. I would be pretty appalled if (as > someone suggested) Arwen is at Helm's Deep. I believe the suggestion, based on earlier leaks, was that Eowyn would be at Helm's Deep. This was then combined with (baseless) speculation that Eowyn's character would be eliminated and combined with Arwen's. The "Eowyn at Helm's Deep" rumor needs to be put in context. Apparently, this is a result of simplification of plot and geography that combines Edoras with Helm's Deep in the original two-film version of the script. Thus, in the original script, the words "Helm's Deep" were used to refer to Edoras, where Theoden has his hall. We do not know if Edoras was separated from Helm's Deep in the three-film version of the script. > It isn't hard to imagine them > doing that, but I think it would debase the story. I can just see Arwen > saving Aragorn's life, or vice-versa, which makes great drama but I want to > see "The Lord of the Rings", not "Romancing the Ring"... It will be impossible for the film to capture the book. For those who are disinclined to read books, the Tolkien you and I know will be forever a mystery. This film will not change that. It will have to stand or fall on the basis of its own merits as a film, and faithfulness to the book will be no guarantee of its success as film. All I can say is that if he chooses to make "Romancing the Ring" he had better make it entertaining. > I can see the need to make Arwen's character more visible in the story, but > we're talking about the greatest work of fantasy literature ever written - > it doesn't need to be improved. But it does need to be *adapted*. That part is inevitable. You make it sound so simple, as though Tolkien had made all the painful cuts and written the shooting script himself, and supplemented it with a completly illustrated storyboard. But films and novels are different art forms, and Tolkien has not shown us the way. > I would still prefer side stories of A&A > together before the quest begins, or maybe flashbacks during the times that > Aragorn is looking for courage or inspiration. According to Jackson, much of the Arwen/Aragorn story will in fact be dealt with in flashbacks. > It is totally believable > that he drew great moral strength and inspiration from her, but to have them > hacking their way through a sea of orcs to end the battle of Helm's Deep > with a meaningful embrace is just nauseating. That isn't what the battle of > Helm's Deep was about. Jackson could screw this up in a thousand different ways, but there is no need to be nauseated until we see the final product. One may fairly hope that time constraints will prevent him from doing anything too gratuitous. However, it does seem clear that Jackson will give Arwen a more prominent role. How will he pull it off? I don't know. > > Eowen should > > fall in love with Aragorn, go into battle, kill the WK, and fall for > > Faramir. > > Apropos Eowyn, I too have a hard time believing Uma Thurman. But listen up > PJ - I've figured out the perfect actress for Eowyn: > > Sigourney Weaver! > > Think of it - she has plenty of experience in killing big, nasty, vile > things (like the Witchking). She can easily pass for a man during the > "Dernhelm" scenes. And it seems to me she has the right tough, hardened > look, or would with longer hair or a blond wig (both of which are admittedly > a bit hard to imagine, but still...) > > My alternate choices are Jamie-Lee Curtis or Jeri Ryan... I don't know Ryan, but Curtis and Weaver are both too old. I agree that Uma seems a bit fragile for Eowyn, but I'm willing to giver her a chance to try to pull it off. -- John Whelan ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:06:41 -0400 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3803B0E9.2E84A938@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <8E5DB5567pt101594@10.4.0.21> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: QrCCeqF0EB7BL62SwpGLUJLhty6hCwc+l0/hBiJsVR4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 1999 23:45:32 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Ross Presser wrote: > alt.distinguished.mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells).wrote.posted.offered: > > >On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:02:32 GMT, Ross Presser > > wrote: > > > >>Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. > >>I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then > >>again, there's Lucy Lawless .... > > > >How would Jeri Ryan disguise herself as a man? She'd need major surgery. > > 'Zactly. Whatshername who plays B'lanna would be a better choice. Neither fit my idea of Eowen. > Ross Presser > ross_presser@imtek.com > "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of > pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Ewoks are Hobbits. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 24 Date: 12 Oct 1999 18:24:54 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939777901 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:25:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:25:01 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:00:51 -0400, John Whelan wrote: >> He's very protective of Arwen, in part because he has some idea >> of what will happen if she's captured. (Remember Celebrian?) He's not >> going to send her out hunting Nazgul no matter how confident he is in her >> abilities. > >Right! And he would never NEVER let her marry Aragorn, knowing that this >would mean her CERTAIN DEATH within a mere century, which, for Elrond, >must seem like the mere blink of an eye. ...after which she and Aragorn leave the miserable world and pass into the presence of Iluvatar for eternity, while Elrond and his sons are sitting in some over-decorated hall in Valinor, eating yet another feast and pretending to be interested in yet another version of "Lament for the Two Trees". >Besides, she would not be hunting Nazgul. She would be scouting around >and trying to find Aragorn and friends. The Nazgul are about, but they >are not likely to go chasing after elf-maidens on horseback. The danger >is truly minimal. Right, and the danger to Glorfindel was minimal too. Sure, he attacked all nine Nazgul, but that didn't mean he was in any real danger, right? ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> <3803CBBB.EC974EB6@erols.com> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 24 Date: 12 Oct 1999 18:32:20 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939778345 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:32:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:32:25 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:01:10 -0400, Solinas wrote: >I wonder if she can cast sleep-spells. Of course, since Lúthien could, >Arwen most likely could, too. Sure, but Arwen wasn't as powerful as Luthien. (That is, she couldn't sing as well. Same thing.) Arwen might be able to slow someone down a little bit with a sleep spell, but then so can John Tesh. >> Of course, Thingol was very protective of Luthien, and it didn't slow her >> down much, but she was enough of a complete badass that *nobody* could have >> stopped her. > >Maybe Melian? That's an interesting point. I always thought Melian was limited in terms of direct intervention in anything. She seems to have that attitude: that Luthien is going to escape anyway, that Beren is going to capture the Silmaril, that it's going to bring down Thingol's entire kingdom. She doesn't really try to do anything about it. She does a lot about various other threats to Doriath (notably the threat of Morgoth's armies walking in and tearing everything up, which she deals with very effectively), but she seems very fatalistic about the Silmaril. ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:35:07 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Ross Presser wrote: > alt.distinguished.elyse1999@my-deja.com (elyse).wrote.posted.offered: > > >Jamie-Lee Curits... a bit old, too, but we're getting there. Who's Jeri > >Ryan? > > Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. > I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then > again, there's Lucy Lawless .... Oh, that's who she is (Ryan I mean). She won't do at all. She would never pass for Dernhelm, for obvious reasons. Uma's still the better choice. -- John Whelan ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:00:51 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 12 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:13:23 -0400, Jeff Blanks wrote: > > >Personally, I think we should all stop beating around the (bilberry) bush > >and just admit that we _want_ him in there! It's obviously what the > >group's really thinking! ;-) So, some other solutions for those who > >insist on being pessimistic: > > > >1. Just put them both in there. > > > >2. Make Arwen one of the other scouts that Glorfindel. mentions. > > > >3. Bring up Arwen in the conversations between Aragorn and Glorfindel. > >This at least would serve to set up Arwen's first appearance (and show > >that Aragorn has a reason of his own for trying to get to Rivendell). > > > >4. Have Arwen catch up with the group _at_the_Ford_. Maybe she could > >lead the Rivendell advance party. > > I think the biggest problem with all these suggestions about Arwen as one of > the scouts is that it's totally out of character for Elrond to send her out > as a scout. I still fail to understand statements like this. How can anyone be so certain what would or would not be out of character for Elrond. > He's very protective of Arwen, in part because he has some idea > of what will happen if she's captured. (Remember Celebrian?) He's not > going to send her out hunting Nazgul no matter how confident he is in her > abilities. Right! And he would never NEVER let her marry Aragorn, knowing that this would mean her CERTAIN DEATH within a mere century, which, for Elrond, must seem like the mere blink of an eye. I suspect that if Arwen were to insist on going, Elrond would not stand in her way, whether he fully approved or no. Besides, she would not be hunting Nazgul. She would be scouting around and trying to find Aragorn and friends. The Nazgul are about, but they are not likely to go chasing after elf-maidens on horseback. The danger is truly minimal. > Of course, Thingol was very protective of Luthien, and it didn't slow her > down much, but she was enough of a complete badass that *nobody* could have > stopped her. She also knew her father was being an overbearing moron, so > she didn't have any moral problems with the idea of running away from him. > Arwen never seemed to figure this out. Perhaps the Red Book does not give a full account of true intensity of feeling of the family squabbles that resulted from Arwen's engagement to Aragorn, and the many fights and disagreements she had with Elrond. I'm sure they would prefer to keep such details away from the prying ears of curious hobbits with literary pretensions. -- John Whelan ###### From: "Dave Casper" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:03:48 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 13 Oct 1999 02:04:03 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Oct 12 19:06:51 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0382.cvx18-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!newsfeed.icl.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail > > [I nominated Jeri "Seven of Nine" Ryan as Eowyn] > > > Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. > > I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then > > again, there's Lucy Lawless .... > > Oh, that's who she is (Ryan I mean). She won't do at all. She would > never pass for Dernhelm, for obvious reasons. Uma's still the better > choice. I guess you haven't seen the voyager scenes of the "Borg-ified" Seven-of-Nine. She doesn't even look human, much less like a babe. Actually I think she'd be great. In the first place, you can hide plenty under a good set of plate mail and a cloak. Second, her Voyager wardrobe is clearly intended to emphasize her ample figure. Third, the whole film is going to be run through the digital mixmaster anyway, and if they can shrink Hobbits, they can shrink anything else they want to. With her hair up and in a suit of armor, I think she could pass for a man easily. Also her Seven-of-Nine personality is pretty close to my conception of the steely fatalism Eowyn is supposed to have. She does action pretty well on Voyager, which is not something every actress can do well. Eowyn is supposed to be a big girl, and she's also supposed to be blonde (isn't Uma a brunette or a redhead?). Lucy Lawless is right out because she isn't even close to blonde... That's my story and I'm sticking to it - Jeri Ryan for Eowyn! -- Dave nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu (make obvious change to use above address) ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 49 Date: 12 Oct 1999 19:55:16 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939783325 207.212.198.18 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:55:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:55:25 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:03:48 -0700, Dave Casper wrote: >Actually I think she'd be great. In the first place, you can hide plenty >under a good set of plate mail and a cloak. Second, her Voyager wardrobe is First, it's 'plate', not 'plate mail'. 'Mail' is that stuff made of lots of little metal rings. Second, plate is really advanced technology, and the Rohirrim are barbarians. Plate existed in the First Age to a limited extent--Eol made it, which would mean the Dwarves could probably make it and the Sindar probably had access to it. But those are the Dwarves and the Sindar. They *always* have cutting-edge technology. Third, plate is fine if you're always on a horse, but it's really hard to move in it on foot, especially if you fall down. Eol and the Dwarves got away with it because they had access to insane materials that don't weigh anything. The Rohirrim don't. (If they had a full suit of mithril plate in the Third Age, they'd just buy Isengard and have Saruman evicted.) >clearly intended to emphasize her ample figure. Third, the whole film is >going to be run through the digital mixmaster anyway, and if they can shrink >Hobbits, they can shrink anything else they want to. That would mess up her posture, and she'd look weird. If you look at Jeri Ryan as a system of balanced forces and masses, her mammary glands account for a large weight in front of her center of mass. They protrude from her body, so they exert a fairly large torque. She doesn't fall over when she walks, so there must be another large weight behind her center of mass producing a torque in the opposite direction. If you reduce the apparent size of her mammary glands, the audience will instinctively (though not consciously) realize that with the way she's standing she would fall backwards. So you have to fix her posture, which takes a lot more editing. >With her hair up and in a suit of armor, I think she could pass for a man >easily. Also her Seven-of-Nine personality is pretty close to my conception >of the steely fatalism Eowyn is supposed to have. She does action pretty >well on Voyager, which is not something every actress can do well. Eowyn's fatalism isn't quite 'steely'. It's more just plain grim. >Eowyn is supposed to be a big girl, and she's also supposed to be blonde >(isn't Uma a brunette or a redhead?). Lucy Lawless is right out because she >isn't even close to blonde... That's easy to fix. ###### From: Solinas Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:01:10 -0400 Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3803CBBB.EC974EB6@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: BLLaDENj9eCTJZYHb5/FPaJhu6lBMuzwn19foNX+/FA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 1999 00:03:06 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote: > I think the biggest problem with all these suggestions about Arwen as one of > the scouts is that it's totally out of character for Elrond to send her out > as a scout. Yip, it is. > He's very protective of Arwen, in part because he has some idea > of what will happen if she's captured. (Remember Celebrian?) He's not > going to send her out hunting Nazgul no matter how confident he is in her > abilities. I wonder if she can cast sleep-spells. Of course, since Lúthien could, Arwen most likely could, too. > Of course, Thingol was very protective of Luthien, and it didn't slow her > down much, but she was enough of a complete badass that *nobody* could have > stopped her. Maybe Melian? > She also knew her father was being an overbearing moron, so > she didn't have any moral problems with the idea of running away from him. IT WAS FOR BEREN! > Arwen never seemed to figure this out. 1) Elrond isn't a jerk; 2) Elrond said they could wed when Aragorn got his Kingdoms. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7u050n$2d8_004@Org.xenite.org> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <871zb2wr7d.fsf@tom.millerscrossing.dhs.org> <3802e74c.113806591@news.pc-intouch.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 28 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:17:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.109 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 939759524 207.224.147.109 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:18:44 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:18:44 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <3802e74c.113806591@news.pc-intouch.com>, mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 02:45:00 GMT, matty i > wrote: > >>e) she did all this despite the fact that she was just a mortal women >>of a generally, unheralded sect (though i'm not sure how her line >>traces _way_ back). > >There's some evidence that suggests she's a descendant of Elros. > >One of the kings of Gondor married one of his children off to a leader >of the branch of the Northmen that eventually became the Rohirrim. >It's suggested (though Tolkien does present this as sort of >speculative) that Eorl the Young was descended from this leader, which >would make the kings of Rohan a branch of the royal line of Númenor. Actually, it wouldn't work that way. No one descended from Vidugavia could be descended from Elros through Vidugavia. However, Thengel married Morwen of Lossarnach, who was descended from the house of Dol Amroth, who in turn appear to have had some connection with Elendil's family and may (therefore) have been Elrosians. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7u06d5$33s_002@Org.xenite.org> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:41:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.109 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 939760945 207.224.147.109 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:42:25 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:42:25 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite Well, someone complained that Sam and Rose's story is "fully documented in the main text" and when I tried to follow up to it, my newsreader flaked out. Anyway, what I tried to post before was that all we know of their love story prior to their marriage is contained in the main text. Apologies if this reponse shows up more than once. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie From: ross_presser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> Organization: Imtek, Inc. Message-ID: <8E5DB5567pt101594@10.4.0.21> User-Agent: Xnews/2.09.03 Lines: 18 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:27:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.204.202.31 X-Trace: typhoon1.gnilink.net 939763648 151.204.202.31 (Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:27:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:27:28 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!206.132.58.119!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!typhoon1.gnilink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail alt.distinguished.mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells).wrote.posted.offered: >On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 14:02:32 GMT, Ross Presser > wrote: > >>Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. >>I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then >>again, there's Lucy Lawless .... > >How would Jeri Ryan disguise herself as a man? She'd need major surgery. 'Zactly. Whatshername who plays B'lanna would be a better choice. -- Ross Presser ross_presser@imtek.com "And if you're the kind of person who parties with a bathtub full of pasta, I suspect you don't care much about cholesterol anyway." ###### From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:37:58 -0400 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7u0oce$c5c$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.200 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 939779278 12460 12.79.28.200 (13 Oct 1999 01:47:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 1999 01:47:58 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in message news:slrn807mt3.3do.mark@colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com... > Right, and the danger to Glorfindel was minimal too. > Sure, he attacked all nine Nazgul, but that didn't mean > he was in any real danger, right? Correct. He wasn't. ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:02:25 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.49.4b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 13 Oct 1999 01:58:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!golmote!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: > I think the biggest problem with all these suggestions about Arwen as one of > the scouts is that it's totally out of character for Elrond to send her out > as a scout. Unfortunately, PJ seems to have no problem messing around with Arwen's character; what's keeping him from doing the same with Elrond's? -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:10:52 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.49.4b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 13 Oct 1999 02:07:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.tli.de!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks John Whelan wrote: > I suspect that if Arwen were to insist on going, Elrond would not stand in > her way, whether he fully approved or no. That depends on where, I think. > Besides, she would not be hunting Nazgul. She would be scouting around > and trying to find Aragorn and friends. The Nazgul are about, but they > are not likely to go chasing after elf-maidens on horseback. The danger > is truly minimal. But the Nazgul are (essentially) looking for "Aragorn and friends." And the East Road is the road presenting the most risk. All we've got, in the end, is what _we'd_ do in that situation. So... If it were _my_ daughter, I'd probably insist that she go in some other direction than east if she went at all. So, considering what we're asked to "believe" about all the characters involved, you might as well actually go by the book (sorry). Another thing: Wouldn't Aragorn have a vested interest in keeping Arwen as safe as possible, too?? -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:43:59 -0400 Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3803F1E0.61F95619@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u9058xoi4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: JZOPbwDiocb1JHZ4XN3HSnOj460e4DOJS1+pxfdQwqU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Oct 1999 07:10:17 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote: > Rather it is in its suddenness. We get an nice long deep build up of > her psyche as the repressed warrior spirit. And then all of a sudden > in one big go she just tips over: > > : Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at lest she understood it . > : And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone in her. > > In two lines she is just swapped out. Somewhat unfitting for the big > buildup. No 2 souls that have to be reconciled. No multiple discharges > of will fighting will, with setbacks or anything like that. Just Mr > rights magical touch and bang. "And that was it?" Total anticlimax. Well, she did mope around for weeks before that. Doesn't that count for anything? Éowyn was clearly a very decisive sort of person; once she made up her mind, she went to it. And like all of the Rohirrim, she was simple and straightforward. It would be out of character for her to agonize and waffle and bore us to death with her angst. And keep in mind that this is an epic myth, not ordinary fiction. The internal struggles are for the most part omitted. It just wouldn't fit. -- FotW "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." JRR Tolkien ###### From: Johnathan George Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:40:51 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3804A803.7DF021BC@mindspring.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.3e.7c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 13 Oct 1999 15:42:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: > > > > That's a definite Bad Thing, because it actively contradicts the plot of the > > books. > > Yes, it would be a Bad Thing. But there is no need to get upset about it > because it is not going to happen. All evidence indicates that Eowyn will > not only be in the movie, but may even have her role slightly enhanced. > > New Line has not yet released an entire cast list. That is the only > "evidence" that has yet been presented to show that Eowyn will not be in > the film. > > But he cast list released so far also lacks names for Theoden, Denethor, > Faramir, and Eomer. Eowyn will not play a major role until the second or > third film. There is no ugent need for them to release her name yet. That comforts me some. I hope you're right. I didn't mean to say that I thought this would be a good idea when I suggested it, just that it seemed like it might happen. Johnathan ###### From: "Dave Casper" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:39:06 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 13 Oct 1999 17:39:15 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Wed Oct 13 10:45:13 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0197.cvx15-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7u2g43$c32$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail > >Actually I think she'd be great. In the first place, you can hide plenty > >under a good set of plate mail and a cloak. Second, her Voyager wardrobe is > > First, it's 'plate', not 'plate mail'. 'Mail' is that stuff made of lots of > little metal rings. [...] OK. Please correct my remark to read "You can hide plenty under a good set of chain mail and a cloak"... > >Third, the whole film is > >going to be run through the digital mixmaster anyway, and if they can shrink > >Hobbits, they can shrink anything else they want to. > > That would mess up her posture, and she'd look weird. If you look at Jeri > Ryan as a system of balanced forces and masses, her mammary glands account > for a large weight in front of her center of mass. They protrude from her > body, so they exert a fairly large torque. She doesn't fall over when she > walks, so there must be another large weight behind her center of mass > producing a torque in the opposite direction. If you reduce the apparent > size of her mammary glands, the audience will instinctively (though not > consciously) realize that with the way she's standing she would fall > backwards. So you have to fix her posture, which takes a lot more editing. Thanks for the physics lesson, but I was kidding about digitally de-enhancing her figure. That would be a crime (and unnecessary - see above). > >With her hair up and in a suit of armor, I think she could pass for a man > >easily. Also her Seven-of-Nine personality is pretty close to my conception > >of the steely fatalism Eowyn is supposed to have. She does action pretty > >well on Voyager, which is not something every actress can do well. > > Eowyn's fatalism isn't quite 'steely'. It's more just plain grim. From "The King of the Golden Hall": Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. From "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields": Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel blade, fair but terrible. From "The Houses of Healing": When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness , it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. -- Dave nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu (make obvious change to use above address) ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:52:19 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!newsfeed.esat.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Ermanna wrote: > Arwen stay at Rivendell, and make Aragorn's standard. Eowen should > fall in love with Aragorn, go into battle, kill the WK, and fall for Faramir. > Bilbo should be in the III. BTW, how can Bilbo appear in the II when he > has no part? This is probably just an error in the casting release. They probably mean he will be in I and III, not I and II. But who knows. ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:09:34 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 12 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:00:51 -0400, John Whelan wrote: > > >> He's very protective of Arwen, in part because he has some idea > >> of what will happen if she's captured. (Remember Celebrian?) He's not > >> going to send her out hunting Nazgul no matter how confident he is in her > >> abilities. > > > >Right! And he would never NEVER let her marry Aragorn, knowing that this > >would mean her CERTAIN DEATH within a mere century, which, for Elrond, > >must seem like the mere blink of an eye. > > ...after which she and Aragorn leave the miserable world and pass into the > presence of Iluvatar for eternity, while Elrond and his sons are sitting in > some over-decorated hall in Valinor, eating yet another feast and pretending > to be interested in yet another version of "Lament for the Two Trees". Once she chose her destiny, I'm not sure how the manner of her death becomes relevant. > >Besides, she would not be hunting Nazgul. She would be scouting around > >and trying to find Aragorn and friends. The Nazgul are about, but they > >are not likely to go chasing after elf-maidens on horseback. The danger > >is truly minimal. > > Right, and the danger to Glorfindel was minimal too. Sure, he attacked all > nine Nazgul, but that didn't mean he was in any real danger, right? Glorfindel attacked Nazgul and drove them off because he had the power to do so. Had he lacked this power, there would have been other options available to him. He was in control over how much danger he faced. He still could have scouted the roads, searched for the Ring Company, while riding around and away from any Nazgul he encountered. Their are many ways to avoid danger. Being powerful enough to overcome your enemies is only one of these, and by no means the best. Being small, quiet, and abile to hide in burrows is another. Having a faster horse is a third. Elrond sent out many scouts besides Glorfindel. There is no reason to believe that they all were as powerful as Glorfindel, or that they needed to be to serve some purpose. -- John Whelan ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:27:39 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Dave Casper wrote: > > > > [I nominated Jeri "Seven of Nine" Ryan as Eowyn] > > > > > Plays Seven of Nine on Star Trek: Voyager. A seriously dangerous babe. > > > I submit that her, um, figure is too full for a shieldmaiden. Then > > > again, there's Lucy Lawless .... > > > > Oh, that's who she is (Ryan I mean). She won't do at all. She would > > never pass for Dernhelm, for obvious reasons. Uma's still the better > > choice. > > I guess you haven't seen the voyager scenes of the "Borg-ified" > Seven-of-Nine. She doesn't even look human, much less like a babe. > > Actually I think she'd be great. In the first place, you can hide plenty > under a good set of plate mail and a cloak. Eowyn should be wearing chain, not plate. > Second, her Voyager wardrobe is > clearly intended to emphasize her ample figure. Third, the whole film is > going to be run through the digital mixmaster anyway, and if they can shrink > Hobbits, they can shrink anything else they want to. Why would they want to be so wasteful with their budget, when there are so many actresses avaiable with more normal sized bosoms? > With her hair up and in a suit of armor, I think she could pass for a man > easily. Also her Seven-of-Nine personality is pretty close to my conception > of the steely fatalism Eowyn is supposed to have. She does action pretty > well on Voyager, which is not something every actress can do well. Well, we certainly do need someone atheletic. I'm not sure Uma is vigorous enough, but we shall have to see. Oversized bosoms, however, have never been an advantage for athletes, and many female athletes have opted for surgical breast reduction. They are certainly a disadvantage for male-impersonators. > Eowyn is supposed to be a big girl, You are applying her bulk in the wrong place. She is tall and strong, as suits a warrior. > and she's also supposed to be blonde > (isn't Uma a brunette or a redhead?). Lucy Lawless is right out because she > isn't even close to blonde... Boy, aren't you naive. They are both actresses. Their hair is whatever they choose to dye it. > That's my story and I'm sticking to it - Jeri Ryan for Eowyn! -- John Whelan ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:10:51 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Jeff Blanks wrote: > John Whelan wrote: > > > I suspect that if Arwen were to insist on going, Elrond would not stand in > > her way, whether he fully approved or no. > > That depends on where, I think. > > > Besides, she would not be hunting Nazgul. She would be scouting around > > and trying to find Aragorn and friends. The Nazgul are about, but they > > are not likely to go chasing after elf-maidens on horseback. The danger > > is truly minimal. > > But the Nazgul are (essentially) looking for "Aragorn and friends." And > the East Road is the road presenting the most risk. She does not need to ride along the East Road in order to seek Aragorn, and perhaps eventually encounter him. > All we've got, in the end, is what _we'd_ do in that situation. So... > If it were _my_ daughter, I'd probably insist that she go in some other > direction than east if she went at all. OK. And what's to stop her from wandering East into the Trollshaws after she disappears into the forest to the North? Or you could lock her in her room and tie her to her bedpost to make sure she does not go at all? > So, considering what we're asked > to "believe" about all the characters involved, you might as well actually > go by the book (sorry). My own feeling is that we might as well watch the movie before we decide whether the situations portrayed therein seem credible on their own terms. I also have no sympathy with those who read a brief account of a character or situation, and then assume they know all there is to know about that character or situation. I think it is much more fun to assume that the brief account is just the tip of a much vaster and more complex iceberg. As a student of History, I also consider this attitude more realistic. > Another thing: Wouldn't Aragorn have a vested interest in keeping Arwen > as safe as possible, too?? Considering he is wandering around in the Trollshaws at the time, I'm not sure how you feel he could do anything to stop her. -- John Whelan ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:23:34 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!cyclone.bc.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 12 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:03:48 -0700, Dave Casper > wrote: > > >Actually I think she'd be great. In the first place, you can hide plenty > >under a good set of plate mail and a cloak. Second, her Voyager wardrobe is > > First, it's 'plate', not 'plate mail'. 'Mail' is that stuff made of lots of > little metal rings. "Plate mail" is a phrase invented by Gary Gygax (one of the inventors of Dungeons and Dragons). It is intended to refer to a light suit of chain liberally covered with metal plate in key defensive locations (such as a breastplate). He distinguished it from full "Plate Armor", which is what you refer to below. > Second, plate is really advanced technology, and the Rohirrim are > barbarians. Plate existed in the First Age to a limited extent--Eol made > it, which would mean the Dwarves could probably make it and the Sindar > probably had access to it. But those are the Dwarves and the Sindar. They > *always* have cutting-edge technology. > > Third, plate is fine if you're always on a horse, but it's really hard to > move in it on foot, especially if you fall down. Eol and the Dwarves got > away with it because they had access to insane materials that don't weigh > anything. The Rohirrim don't. (If they had a full suit of mithril plate in > the Third Age, they'd just buy Isengard and have Saruman evicted.) -- John Whelan ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Reply-To: mark@pc-intouch.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: colpanic.office.pc-intouch.com Lines: 14 Date: 13 Oct 1999 17:44:45 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.212.198.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@pacbell.net X-Trace: typhoon-la.pbi.net 939861889 207.212.198.18 (Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:44:49 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:44:49 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon-la.pbi.net.POSTED!not-for-mail On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:23:34 -0400, John Whelan wrote: >"Plate mail" is a phrase invented by Gary Gygax (one of the inventors of I know. That's why I don't take it seriously as a description of any kind of real armor. >Dungeons and Dragons). It is intended to refer to a light suit of chain >liberally covered with metal plate in key defensive locations (such as a >breastplate). He distinguished it from full "Plate Armor", which is what >you refer to below. It's still quite a bit more sophisticated than anything the Rohirrim have. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Shimpei Yamashita Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Originator: shimpei@gol.com (Shimpei Yamashita) Message-ID: Lines: 13 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:29:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.216.42.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gol.com X-Trace: nnrp.gol.com 939853782 203.216.42.87 (Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:29:42 JST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:29:42 JST Organization: Global Online Japan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.gol.com!203.216.70.8.MISMATCH!POSTED.nnrp.gol.com!not-for-mail Mark Wells writes: >Second, plate is really advanced technology, and the Rohirrim are >barbarians. Plate existed in the First Age to a limited extent--Eol made >it, which would mean the Dwarves could probably make it and the Sindar >probably had access to it. But those are the Dwarves and the Sindar. They >*always* have cutting-edge technology. The Rohirrim themselves may have been barbarians, but they were allied with Gondor, which presumably could make more advanced metalwork that they could sell, trade, or give to the Rohirrim. -- Shimpei Yamashita ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.41.116 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 939850311 212.151.41.116 (Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:31:51 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:31:51 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-41-116.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:31:58 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Mark Wells hath written: [snip] > >I think the biggest problem with all these suggestions about Arwen as one of >the scouts is that it's totally out of character for Elrond to send her out >as a scout. He's very protective of Arwen, in part because he has some idea >of what will happen if she's captured. (Remember Celebrian?) He's not >going to send her out hunting Nazgul no matter how confident he is in her >abilities. > >Of course, Thingol was very protective of Luthien, and it didn't slow her >down much, but she was enough of a complete badass that *nobody* could have >stopped her. She also knew her father was being an overbearing moron, so >she didn't have any moral problems with the idea of running away from him. >Arwen never seemed to figure this out. That Elrond was an overbearing moron? Öjevind -- ###### From: "A. Sieberson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:47:19 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u9058xoi4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: dante11.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: nntp3.u.washington.edu 939883642 34484 (None) 140.142.17.35 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-User: faramir In-Reply-To: <6u9058xoi4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!dante11.u.washington.edu!faramir > Rather it is in its suddenness. We get an nice long deep build up of > her psyche as the repressed warrior spirit. And then all of a sudden > in one big go she just tips over: > > : Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at lest she understood it . > : And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone in her. > > In two lines she is just swapped out. Somewhat unfitting for the big > buildup. No 2 souls that have to be reconciled. No multiple discharges > of will fighting will, with setbacks or anything like that. Just Mr > rights magical touch and bang. "And that was it?" Total anticlimax. I suppose that the part of the scentence that always stands out in my mind is "or at least she understood it". Granted, if her heart DID change that quickly, it would be a serious copout. But I've always read it as her understanding consciously what had been growing at the back of her mind for some time, ever since she slew the WK and learned that glory sometimes came at a very high cost, not in a nice clean "hacking the orcs" sort of way like it always said in the stories. Unfortunately, I suppose that is a matter of interpretation (much like the dreaded B*lr...you know. That which we will leave unmentioned)(TWWWLU). > > As for becoming a housewife, do you honestly think that the shield-maiden > > of Rohan, slayer of the Nazgul King, and princess of Ithilien is going to > > settle down, stitching up Faramir's cape and basting his coney? > > Not quite that bad. But it does make a bit of an "taming of the shrew" > impression. The "rebellious" woman submitting to "sense" after being > enlightend by the right one. A few 1960s Doris Day films come to mind. Your right, it does. I personally am incredibly annoyed by that play, for rather obvious reasons, but I have to give Shakespeare some credit: Kate did mature over the course of the play. Sometimes, I suppose maturation involves a realization of limits. What gets me abotut that is that Petruchio is somehow "right", when in reality he too is just as immature. And he doesn't change (that I could see). I think Eowyn oculd be come mature without giving in or giving up, unfortunately the books end pretty soon afterwards and we don't know. (I doubt it myself...) which movies? > > IMHO, Eowyn's "coming of age", so to speak, is the most feminist > > part of the entire trilogy. > > Interesting. I allways saw in it the "woman get back to an socially > accepted role" bit. Sure an healer is still an active woman (perhaps > the most active allowed) but is still a lot less than men are allowed. depending on your point of view. In LotR, the women play roles just as important as the men's, but they are seperate. No woman would probably imagine herself as head of the state (although, IIRC, they could do that in Numenor?), and no man would take over their roles, whatever they were. Galadriel and Celeborn are good examples of this. > > Annie > > Who even posts as Faramir. Must have fallen deeply into love with > Eowyn. Actually, Aragorn, Frodo, and Cicero were all taken, thank you very much! And I didn't have the presence of mind to think of Eowyn. She was only my second favorite character... but I'm not going to go into that any further. ;) > Well she is a beauty and has brains and personality. I would > definitely miss her if she is out of the film. But the fast > resolution just feels wrong. perhaps PJ won't ruin it. And hey, you actually wrote back. Rather a rarity for a thread with no sex, religion, or TWWWLU. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annie Sieberson "I do not love the bright sword for its faramir@u.washington.edu sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love PAXTECVM only that which they defend." --Faramir, _the Two Towers_, p 280 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: jblanks@mindspring.com (Jeff Blanks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 00:56:59 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.61.2b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 14 Oct 1999 04:57:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!jblanks John Whelan wrote: > My own feeling is that we might as well watch the movie before we decide > whether the situations portrayed therein seem credible on their own terms. You're no fun anymore!! > I also have no sympathy with those who read a brief account of a character > or situation, and then assume they know all there is to know about that > character or situation. I think it is much more fun to assume that the > brief account is just the tip of a much vaster and more complex iceberg. > As a student of History, I also consider this attitude more realistic. All your points are valid, and I agree with them. But we're discussing _changing_ the story, not just adding to the "known" record (in fact, you might remember that I suggested some additions myself, FWIW, so I'm not necessarily "one of those who read a brief account...and then assume they know all there is to know..."). > > Another thing: Wouldn't Aragorn have a vested interest in keeping Arwen > > as safe as possible, too?? > > Considering he is wandering around in the Trollshaws at the time, I'm not > sure how you feel he could do anything to stop her. I wasn't addressing that--I was just addressing what he would be feeling. -- "Technique is the means by which the heart is allowed to fly freely." --Olivier Messiaen ###### From: kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi (Jouni Karhu) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 01:19:20 GMT Organization: Legion of Immortals Lines: 12 Message-ID: <38052f65.1115614@news.cc.tut.fi> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <38002397.7F030B25@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a34c.mtalo.ton.tut.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: baker.cc.tut.fi 939864081 12846 193.166.88.122 (14 Oct 1999 01:21:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Oct 1999 01:21:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: >Or you could lock her in her >room and tie her to her bedpost to make sure she does not go at all? Hmm, I wouldn't mind seeing this scene ;) (Sorry, this was getting a bit too serious) -- 'I have something to say! | 'The Immoral Immortal' \o JJ Karhu It is better to burn out, | -=========================OxxxxxxxxxxxO than to fade away!' | kurgan@modeemi.cs.tut.fi /o ###### From: "Dave Casper" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 03:17:03 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u9058xoi4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 14 Oct 1999 10:17:20 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Thu Oct 14 03:25:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0898.cvx14-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7u4ajg$fk1$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail > > Rather it is in its suddenness. We get an nice long deep build up of > > her psyche as the repressed warrior spirit. And then all of a sudden > > in one big go she just tips over: > > > > : Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at lest she understood it . > > : And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone in her. > > > > In two lines she is just swapped out. Somewhat unfitting for the big > > buildup. No 2 souls that have to be reconciled. No multiple discharges > > of will fighting will, with setbacks or anything like that. Just Mr > > rights magical touch and bang. "And that was it?" Total anticlimax. Actually if you read the story in its entirety, I wouldn't say it's that sudden. The sparks flew between F&E before the final denouement. It was anti-climactic to me in the sense that the die was cast in their earlier meetings. Actually the moment when they were standing holding hands on the walls of Minas Tirith as the Shadow passed away seems to be the more decisive one. Which isn't so hard to understand. > I suppose that the part of the scentence that always stands out in my mind > is "or at least she understood it". Granted, if her heart DID change that > quickly, it would be a serious copout. But I've always read it as her > understanding consciously what had been growing at the back of her mind > for some time, ever since she slew the WK and learned that glory sometimes > came at a very high cost, not in a nice clean "hacking the orcs" sort of > way like it always said in the stories. I re-read the Faramir/Eowyn scenes. The main thing which stood out in my mind was how frank Faramir was with her. He was pretty damn honest about pretty much everything. It seems plausible that no man ever related to her in the way F did. Compare Faramir's almost blunt approach (laying his cards squarely on the table, as it were) to Aragorn's rather awkward attempts to ignore what was going on. -- Dave nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu (make obvious change to use above address) ###### From: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 14 Oct 1999 05:25:25 GMT Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ (USA) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <7u3pg5$rvp$1@news.asu.edu> References: <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erol Reply-To: chuckb@aztec.asu.edu (CHUCK BRAMLET) NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec2.asu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!CS.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!aztec.asu.edu!chuckb In a previous article, ross_presser@NOSPAMimtek.com.invalid (Ross Presser) says: [snip] >Then again, there's Lucy Lawless .... Quote: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA..." -- ###### From: PATERSOA@TUI.lincoln.ac.nz (Adrian Paterson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:44:26 GMT Organization: Customer of Telecom Internet Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: <38065bf3.25429835@news.xtra.co.nz> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc090025.lincoln.ac.nz X-Trace: titan.xtra.co.nz 939868947 9657549 138.75.90.25 (14 Oct 1999 02:42:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xtra.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Oct 1999 02:42:27 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.netgate.net.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail >> Arwen stay at Rivendell, and make Aragorn's standard. Eowen should >> fall in love with Aragorn, go into battle, kill the WK, and fall for Faramir. >> Bilbo should be in the III. BTW, how can Bilbo appear in the II when he >> has no part? > >This is probably just an error in the casting release. They probably mean >he will be in I and III, not I and II. But who knows. Well Bilbo may be in II. I imagine that he could be a convenient character to go to from time back at Rivendell where he can divulge bits of information important to the viewer that are not easily presented otherwise (bits of history, what may be happening elsewhere, the companies pony turning up..... stuff, maybe even Arwen talking to Bilbo to provide flashbacks about her and Aragorn). Adrian ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 14 Oct 1999 23:32:03 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 81 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u7lkpsk6k.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7tpatb$nsd$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7trgr6$3ik_006@Org.xenite.org> <6ur9j1zfle.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6u9058xoi4.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "A. Sieberson" writes: > > > In two lines she is just swapped out. Somewhat unfitting for the big > > buildup. No 2 souls that have to be reconciled. No multiple discharges > > Unfortunately, I suppose that is a matter of interpretation (much like the > dreaded B*lr...you know. That which we will leave unmentioned)(TWWWLU). After re-reading that scene I have to agree with that one. Yet another pretense for an holy war on rabt. > > Not quite that bad. But it does make a bit of an "taming of the shrew" > > impression. The "rebellious" woman submitting to "sense" after being > > enlightend by the right one. A few 1960s Doris Day films come to mind. > > Your right, it does. I personally am incredibly annoyed by that play, > for rather obvious reasons, me, too > I think Eowyn oculd be come mature without giving in or giving up, > unfortunately the books end pretty soon afterwards and we don't > know. That is perhaps the reason to finish up so fast. Running out of space. Doesn't just happen to PJ (hey, back on topic!). > which movies? IIRC TV film, not movie, ca 1960s (I only saw part of them when my mother was watching them, but the picture quality was about 60s). In these she is some career woman (often journalistic). who comes up agianst some man and after trying to fight him allways ends up becoming his wife. One particularly obnoxious example had her on an shared telephone like with an playboy who was sweet talking his chicks so often that her career was getting disturbed. IFAIK she is/was actually in private quite an feminist, but accepted such roles so she at least could be an active role in a film, even if she had to betray her ideals in then end. > > > IMHO, Eowyn's "coming of age", so to speak, is the most feminist > > > part of the entire trilogy. > > > > Interesting. I allways saw in it the "woman get back to an socially > > accepted role" bit. Sure an healer is still an active woman (perhaps > > the most active allowed) but is still a lot less than men are allowed. > > depending on your point of view. In LotR, the women play roles just as > important as the men's, but they are seperate. No woman would probably > imagine herself as head of the state (although, IIRC, they could do that > in Numenor?), They had some queens. But IMHO they were a bit like Queen Elisabeth (the first) type queens: Women granted an special exemption, available to only a select (by birth) few because the state requires it. > > Well she is a beauty and has brains and personality. I would > > definitely miss her if she is out of the film. But the fast > > resolution just feels wrong. > > perhaps PJ won't ruin it. And hey, you actually wrote back. Rather a > rarity for a thread with no sex, religion, or TWWWLU. I usually write back if either: my original message turns out to be missunderstandable or if there is an question asked of me. Both of course subject to time limits. And here the second answer back. And what is TWWWLU? I have never met that one before. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: "Dave Casper" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:01:38 -0700 References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7u57rl$ibm@news-central.tiac.net> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-ELN-Date: 14 Oct 1999 20:02:14 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Thu Oct 14 13:05:08 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool0999.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <7u5cs6$10t$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail > The funny thing is that in my mind's eye I always say Eowyn as having > steel-colored hair -- almost grey, but at the same time a very young face. I think the text describes her hair in several places as "flaxen" (="pale yellow", according to the dictionary). > In fact, I'm a little worried that the movie may contaminate much of my > personal vision of the books. Always a danger, although I have to say having checked out the web page with photos of the cast, I'm pretty encouraged so far. I find Stuart Townsend a bit different from my vision of Aragorn. Interesting to see that the latest rumor has him being replaced by somebody named Viggo Mortensen (who looks even less like my mental picture). (See http://www.vis-con.com/coolstuff/lotr/all.asp) -- Dave nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu (make obvious change to use above address) ###### From: Douglas Henderson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:45:29 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 35 Message-ID: <380624C8.1EAE0EDF@mindspring.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7u57rl$ibm@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.0c.66 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 14 Oct 1999 18:42:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!firehose.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Peter Maranci wrote: > Dave Casper (nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu) wrote: > [Snip!] > > Eowyn is supposed to be a big girl, and she's also supposed to be blonde > > (isn't Uma a brunette or a redhead?). Lucy Lawless is right out because she > > isn't even close to blonde... > > Actually, Lucy Lawless really IS a blonde -- and even more strangely, the > actress who plays her blonde sidekick is a natural brunette! They both dye > their hair. > > It does seem that Uma is too delicate, but I have the impression that > she's like some of the greatest actors (Alec Guiness leaps to mind) who > can appear completely different by sheer acting talen alone. So maybe she > could do it, though it would probably be a stretch. > > Jeri Ryan wouldn't be bad either, although the chest thing could be a bit > of a problem. > > The funny thing is that in my mind's eye I always say Eowyn as having > steel-colored hair -- almost grey, but at the same time a very young face. > In fact, I'm a little worried that the movie may contaminate much of my > personal vision of the books. > > -->Pete > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Peter Maranci pmaranci@tiac.net Malden, MA > FRP adventures, art and more: http://www.tiac.net/users/maranci/rq.htm Hmm, I thought LL is a brunette? I'll ask over on the Xena group and see what the story is. ###### From: "William" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 14 Oct 1999 17:05:18 GMT Organization: Jump.Net Message-ID: <01bf1666$7bd20560$3527e1ce@bill.jump.net> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: team-pc53.customer.jump.net X-Trace: news.jump.net 939920718 19341 206.225.39.53 (14 Oct 1999 17:05:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@jump.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Oct 1999 17:05:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!feeder.qis.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news-feeds.jump.net!news.jump.net!not-for-mail Mark Wells wrote in article ... > > First, it's 'plate', not 'plate mail'. 'Mail' is that stuff made of lots of > little metal rings. Uh, actually mail can be either. In fact, a "suit of mail" is often taken to be a suit of plate armor. (Initially it was descriptive of the mesh of chain mail, but once having been applied to a type of armor, it became a generic term. It can even be correctly used to describe the shell of an animal such as a turtle.) But, you're right in that "plate" is less ambigous. (And "plate mail" has been around a long time - early 60s I can personally attest to, anyway. :-) [...] > Third, plate is fine if you're always on a horse, but it's really hard to > move in it on foot, especially if you fall down. Urban legend, as anyone who's seen the film of the English museum guide turning summersaults in full plate can tell you. If it fits well, and doesn't pinch, you don't lose much mobility.-Wm ###### From: pmaranci@tiac.net (Peter Maranci) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: 14 Oct 1999 18:36:37 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <7u57rl$ibm@news-central.tiac.net> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunspot.tiac.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!not-for-mail Dave Casper (nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu) wrote: [Snip!] > Eowyn is supposed to be a big girl, and she's also supposed to be blonde > (isn't Uma a brunette or a redhead?). Lucy Lawless is right out because she > isn't even close to blonde... Actually, Lucy Lawless really IS a blonde -- and even more strangely, the actress who plays her blonde sidekick is a natural brunette! They both dye their hair. It does seem that Uma is too delicate, but I have the impression that she's like some of the greatest actors (Alec Guiness leaps to mind) who can appear completely different by sheer acting talen alone. So maybe she could do it, though it would probably be a stretch. Jeri Ryan wouldn't be bad either, although the chest thing could be a bit of a problem. The funny thing is that in my mind's eye I always say Eowyn as having steel-colored hair -- almost grey, but at the same time a very young face. In fact, I'm a little worried that the movie may contaminate much of my personal vision of the books. -->Pete ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Maranci pmaranci@tiac.net Malden, MA FRP adventures, art and more: http://www.tiac.net/users/maranci/rq.htm ###### From: Douglas Henderson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:45:09 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 56 Message-ID: <38066B04.2995F48E@mindspring.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7u57rl$ibm@news-central.tiac.net> Reply-To: sonshi57@wombatmindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.12.22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 14 Oct 1999 23:43:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Peter Maranci wrote: > Dave Casper (nospam@dcasper.at.uci.edu) wrote: > [Snip!] > > Eowyn is supposed to be a big girl, and she's also supposed to be blonde > > (isn't Uma a brunette or a redhead?). Lucy Lawless is right out because she > > isn't even close to blonde... > > Actually, Lucy Lawless really IS a blonde -- and even more strangely, the > actress who plays her blonde sidekick is a natural brunette! They both dye > their hair. > > It does seem that Uma is too delicate, but I have the impression that > she's like some of the greatest actors (Alec Guiness leaps to mind) who > can appear completely different by sheer acting talen alone. So maybe she > could do it, though it would probably be a stretch. > > Jeri Ryan wouldn't be bad either, although the chest thing could be a bit > of a problem. > > The funny thing is that in my mind's eye I always say Eowyn as having > steel-colored hair -- almost grey, but at the same time a very young face. > In fact, I'm a little worried that the movie may contaminate much of my > personal vision of the books. > > -->Pete > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Peter Maranci pmaranci@tiac.net Malden, MA > FRP adventures, art and more: http://www.tiac.net/users/maranci/rq.htm Thanks to my Xenaverse colleagues Mark A. and Gail Futoron Her haircolor is definitely not blonde, but more of a light brown As in from Mark A. http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Sands/6513/mrsnewzealand.html and from Gail http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/online/nzww1195.html Some people deride the series as a sword and sandal Baywatch. If the LOTR movie matches the series in drama, in the ability to move one, in being drawn into the life of characters, the movie will be worthy. However, it's humor and "over the top" Hong Kong Wuxia film style action would be out of place. I watch it for the above and for the twist it puts on gender roles. -- Douglas Henderson Please remove "wombat" to reply ###### From: jubjub@flash.net (Lord Jubjub) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7u57rl$ibm@news-central.tiac.net> <7u5cs6$10t$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Organization: The Kingdom of the Absurd X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:54:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.30.106.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@flash.net X-Trace: news.flash.net 939941656 209.30.106.196 (Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:54:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:54:16 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.flash.net!news.flash.net!not-for-mail In article <7u5cs6$10t$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Dave Casper" wrote: > > The funny thing is that in my mind's eye I always say Eowyn as having > > steel-colored hair -- almost grey, but at the same time a very young face. > > I think the text describes her hair in several places as "flaxen" (="pale > yellow", according to the dictionary). > > > In fact, I'm a little worried that the movie may contaminate much of my > > personal vision of the books. > > Always a danger, although I have to say having checked out the web page with > photos of the cast, I'm pretty encouraged so far. I find Stuart Townsend a > bit different from my vision of Aragorn. Interesting to see that the latest > rumor has him being replaced by somebody named Viggo Mortensen (who looks > even less like my mental picture). > Well, Townsend IS gone--that is confirmed. The rumor has the part being offered to Viggio. -- Lord Jubjub, Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 00:24:29 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <7tumdc$nta$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7tvd7t$njo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8E5D6B362pt101594@10.4.0.21> <7u0paj$mho$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!209.155.56.21.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 13 Oct 1999, Mark Wells wrote: > On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:23:34 -0400, John Whelan wrote: > > >"Plate mail" is a phrase invented by Gary Gygax (one of the inventors of > > I know. That's why I don't take it seriously as a description of any kind > of real armor. Gygax invented the TERM. The CONCEPT described is not unhistorical. The transition from mail to full plate over the course of the 14th century was a gradual one. In the interim, their did indeed exist armor that combined plate with mail. > >Dungeons and Dragons). It is intended to refer to a light suit of chain > >liberally covered with metal plate in key defensive locations (such as a > >breastplate). He distinguished it from full "Plate Armor", which is what > >you refer to below. > > It's still quite a bit more sophisticated than anything the Rohirrim have. We were never in disagreement on this point. The Rohirrim wore mail coats, as Tolkien clearly states. -- John Whelan ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 07:32:59 -0400 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <38086267.3D73AFE1@erols.com> References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: NxRYRKuLP3HLhhtfLHyq4DbL4Xw4BtEyl9ue5qqZ+2A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Oct 1999 15:24:20 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Stephen Souter wrote: > Actually, Bilbo does appear in Part II (the book, that is), albeit > briefly. Remember Galadriel & her mirror? One of the scenes Frodo sees is > of Bilbo in his room at Rivendell. OK, he does appear in Book II, but we were talking about TT. > Stephen Souter Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Ewoks are Hobbits! ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:48:42 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, Stephen Souter wrote: > wrote: > > > This is probably just an error in the casting release. They probably mean > > he will be in I and III, not I and II. But who knows. > > Actually, Bilbo does appear in Part II (the book, that is), albeit > briefly. Remember Galadriel & her mirror? One of the scenes Frodo sees is > of Bilbo in his room at Rivendell. Good point. What's more, Jackson seems fond of mystical or quasi-mystical shifts of perspective. -- John Whelan ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:24:54 +1000 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 940062327 23537 129.78.104.134 (16 Oct 1999 08:25:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Oct 1999 08:25:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user In article , John Whelan wrote: > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Ermanna wrote: > > > Arwen stay at Rivendell, and make Aragorn's standard. Eowen should > > fall in love with Aragorn, go into battle, kill the WK, and fall for > > Faramir. > > Bilbo should be in the III. BTW, how can Bilbo appear in the II when he > > has no part? > > This is probably just an error in the casting release. They probably mean > he will be in I and III, not I and II. But who knows. Actually, Bilbo does appear in Part II (the book, that is), albeit briefly. Remember Galadriel & her mirror? One of the scenes Frodo sees is of Bilbo in his room at Rivendell. -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/ ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:13:32 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <7todbv$l3m$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.dc.2d.a6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 17 Oct 1999 16:03:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) wrote: >On Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:41:31 -0400, Jeff Blanks wrote: >>mark@pc-intouch.com wrote: >> >>> Bakshi's version sucks. I don't think it's a good idea for Jackson to >>> emulate something that sucks. >> >>It sucks for entirely different reasons than that particular point. > >Yes, but it sucks for that reason too. It sucks for a whole lot of reasons. Such as the fact that only the first film was done. Had Bakshi completed his task, I have no doubt I would own VHS copies of both films today. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:13:33 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <19991010210020.16252.00000796@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.dc.2d.a6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 17 Oct 1999 16:03:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) wrote: >> >>I fear so. It took over 10 Draculas until Francis Ford Coppola made >>Bram Stokers Dracula, > >Coppola made Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, no matter what title he stuck on >it. Junk, just like all the others, if more prettily filmed. Indeed. Even if it is the only one I have seen that shows the final dash to Transylvania, it is still, as you put it so succinctly, junk. I do like the original _Dracula_, despite the ending, but that's just the power of Bela Lugosi. _Dracula: Dead and Loving It_ is my candidate for "best remake" (of the Lugosi version). ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 19:42:55 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <19991010210020.16252.00000796@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Paul S. Person wrote: > I do like the original _Dracula_, despite the ending, but that's just > the power of Bela Lugosi. _Dracula: Dead and Loving It_ is my > candidate for "best remake" (of the Lugosi version). I agree about "Dead & Loving It". Despite being a spoof, it actually still worked pretty well as a horror film, and showed alot of appreciation for the material. I had heard mediocre reviews for it, and was very surprised by how much I liked it. For me, at least, that also helped it work as a spoof. Comic relief works best when the gags are set against a backbone of real tension. "Airplane" worked because the gags were set against the background of a truly tense classic suspense plot. But this is just about the only horror spoof I have seen that was wise enough to allow the villain to remain at least a little scary. -- John Whelan ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:39:59 +1000 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <37FE263F.69E77478@mindspring.com> <3801E826.497FBDBE@tamiu.edu> <38026D60.9D6258B5@erols.com> <38086267.3D73AFE1@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: metro.ucc.usyd.edu.au 940228820 5172 129.78.104.134 (18 Oct 1999 06:40:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Oct 1999 06:40:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!mac6a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user In article <38086267.3D73AFE1@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > Stephen Souter wrote: > > > > Actually, Bilbo does appear in Part II (the book, that is), albeit > > briefly. Remember Galadriel & her mirror? One of the scenes Frodo sees is > > of Bilbo in his room at Rivendell. > > OK, he does appear in Book II, but we were talking about TT. The point I was trying to make was that visions or dreams of some sort are about the only way PJ is going to be able to involve Bilbo once the Fellowship leaves Rivendell in the movie version of LotR. (Assuming, of course, that that old casting release was correct; and if it isn't, then that could make for at least two errors, for IIRC it also indicated Saruman might not be involved in Movie III either.) Galadriel's mirror in Lothlorien seemed the most obvious inspiration for this, although not the only one. It might be the only place in the book where Bilbo is seen by Frodo in a vision, but in the book Frodo also has visions of a sort on top of Amon Hen with the aid of the Ring. There seems no real reason why PJ couldn't extend that sort of device in his movie, perhaps as one way of showing the Ring's growing effect on Frodo. -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/ ###### From: undomiel4@aol.com (Undomiel4) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Oct 1999 11:54:28 GMT References: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Message-ID: <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I am flabbergasted! Give Eowyn's role to Arwen? what are they thinking?! It will totally destroy both Arwen and Eowyn's individuality, not to mention that that's just totally not written in LOTR anyway. There is a difference between Arwen and Eowyn that makes them both unique, they cannot both be pictured as woman warriors. What is the film coming to, i dread to think of it............ ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:30:31 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On 19 Oct 1999, Undomiel4 wrote: > I am flabbergasted! Give Eowyn's role to Arwen? what are they > thinking?! Calm down. It is not going to happen. It is a baseless rumor. Arwen and Eowyn are separate characters in the script, and both have significant roles. -- John Whelan ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:40:32 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 19 Message-ID: <380D39B0.162E7549@virginia.edu> References: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-30.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: > > On 19 Oct 1999, Undomiel4 wrote: > > Calm down. It is not going to happen. It is a baseless rumor. Arwen and > Eowyn are separate characters in the script, and both have significant > roles. > What is your source of information for this? I have seen nothing to indicate Eowyn is in the movie. (OTOH, I have seen nothing to indicate she is not.) No one has been cast as Eowyn. And the only script review I have seen did not include Eowyn. (But that script review was of the 2 movie version.) -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:33:02 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> <380D39B0.162E7549@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <380D39B0.162E7549@virginia.edu> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Larry Richards wrote: > John Whelan wrote: > > > > On 19 Oct 1999, Undomiel4 wrote: > > > > Calm down. It is not going to happen. It is a baseless rumor. Arwen and > > Eowyn are separate characters in the script, and both have significant > > roles. > > > What is your source of information for this? I have seen nothing to > indicate Eowyn is in the movie. (OTOH, I have seen nothing to indicate > she is not.) No one has been cast as Eowyn. And the only script review > I have seen did not include Eowyn. (But that script review was of the 2 > movie version.) If you are referring to the Moriarty review of Part I of the 2-part script, then that review did indeed mention Eowyn. Apparently Gandalf meets Eowyn during his first visit to Rohan just after escaping Orthanc. Also, the casting release (which is released to the acting community to inform them that certain roles are available) includes an entry for the Eowyn character. They are looking for someone 18-30 to play her, and we are informed that she will have a bit part in Part I, and a larger part in parts II and III. There is a brief spoiler-free description of her character, which seems pretty faithful to the book. It is mentioned that she falls hopelessly in love with Aragorn. You can find it, along with other casting release descriptions for most other major characters, at www.theonering.com. Also, there continues to be strong rumors that Uma Thurman and her husband Ethan Hawke have been cast as Eowyn and Faramir respectively. My understanding is that this information comes from a source that has been shown to be largely reliable by the recent official press release. I assume the only reason that the casting release did not indicate who will play Eowyn, Faramir, Denethor, and Theoden (all of whom are apparently in the script) is because these characters do not feature significantly in Part I. -- John Whelan ###### From: Larry Richards Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:35:20 -0400 Organization: University of Virginia Lines: 69 Message-ID: <380E9808.10FADDDA@virginia.edu> References: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> <380D39B0.162E7549@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-31-27.itc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD compaq (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: > Also, the casting release (which is released to the acting community to > inform them that certain roles are available) includes an entry for the > Eowyn character. They are looking for someone 18-30 to play her, and we > are informed that she will have a bit part in Part I, and a larger part in > parts II and III. There is a brief spoiler-free description of her > character, which seems pretty faithful to the book. It is mentioned that > she falls hopelessly in love with Aragorn. You can find it, along with > other casting release descriptions for most other major characters, at > www.theonering.com. > Thank you for the info. I went there and checked it out. I was somewhat confused at points, somewhat distressed at others, generally pleased with most descriptions, and broke out laughing at the description of Gimli. First my point of confusion: > I assume the only reason that the casting release did not indicate who > will play Eowyn, Faramir, Denethor, and Theoden (all of whom are > apparently in the script) is because these characters do not feature > significantly in Part I. Eowyn is listed as being in part 1. That is what we saw from the Moriarty script (i.e. she helps Gandalf out after his escape). And apparently, this is still supposed to be in the 3 part version of the script (since it says Eowyn is in parts 1, 2 and 3) By if she is in part 1, and all the scenes in part 1 are supposed to be shot in the time frame indicated, why hasn't she been cast yet? Speculations: (1) The casting directions did not keep pace with the script rewrite and she really is not in part 1. (2) The scenes in part 1 requiring cast members not yet in NZ or not yet cast, will be shot later. (3) the script is continuing to be rewritten and they are not sure what to do with Eowyn yet. As to my distress: Arwen is not just in parts 1 and 3 but part 2 as well? How can that be? Does she come along with the Fellowship? Will it be the 10 walkers versus the 9 Riders? Or will they add a Nazgul (named tiny tim) just to balance things out? Are Aragorn and Arwen supposed to be sneaking off during the day while the ring heads south to engage in a little snuggle bunnies? How in the world does she get into part 2? (I mean, even if she joins the Gray Company, that's not until part 3) As to my delight: Well, I'm delighted that PJ has done a very close read of the books. (Though Gandalf's arthritic knees had me puzzled.) And finally for Gimli: WINE, WOMEN and SONG????!!!!! Woah! There must have been some party at Rivendell after Frodo and Sam left that night! Do you think Gimli was hitting on all the elf chicks later in the evening? Maybe he got together an orgy that Merry and Pippin joined. Hey, I'll bet this was in the Red Book all along, but that Tolkien, being rather delicate about the matter, edited it out when he did the translation! Way to go Gimli! Woo-Hoo! -- LGR A confirmed winged balrog, Frodo speaking, Eowyn killing, pointy eared, partisan! ###### From: John Whelan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:59:19 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 122 Message-ID: References: <37FE3677.C6F509E6@mindspring.com> <19991019075428.21842.00000304@ng-fk1.aol.com> <380D39B0.162E7549@virginia.edu> <380E969E.B18E8812@virginia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: amanda.dorsai.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jbwhelan@amanda In-Reply-To: <380E969E.B18E8812@virginia.edu> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!amanda!jbwhelan On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Larry Richards wrote: > John Whelan wrote: > > > > Also, the casting release (which is released to the acting community to > > inform them that certain roles are available) includes an entry for the > > Eowyn character. They are looking for someone 18-30 to play her, and we > > are informed that she will have a bit part in Part I, and a larger part in > > parts II and III. There is a brief spoiler-free description of her > > character, which seems pretty faithful to the book. It is mentioned that > > she falls hopelessly in love with Aragorn. You can find it, along with > > other casting release descriptions for most other major characters, at > > www.theonering.com. > > > Thank you for the info. I went there and checked it out. I was > somewhat confused at points, somewhat distressed at others, generally > pleased with most descriptions, and broke out laughing at the > description of Gimli. > > First my point of confusion: > > > I assume the only reason that the casting release did not indicate who > > will play Eowyn, Faramir, Denethor, and Theoden (all of whom are > > apparently in the script) is because these characters do not feature > > significantly in Part I. > > Eowyn is listed as being in part 1. That is what we saw from the > Moriarty script (i.e. she helps Gandalf out after his escape). And > apparently, this is still supposed to be in the 3 part version of the > script (since it says Eowyn is in parts 1, 2 and 3) By if she is in > part 1, and all the scenes in part 1 are supposed to be shot in the time > frame indicated, why hasn't she been cast yet? Rumor has it that she has been cast (with Uma Thurman). There are many fairly minor parts from Part I where names have not yet been given, such as Elrond, Ted Sandyman, the Gaffer, Barliman Butterbur, and the Ringwraiths. Her role in part I is extremely minor, and its filming could probably be delayed for months. They probably won't film her Part I cameo (assuming it is still in the script) until they are ready to start filming all the Edoras scenes. Remember that all three films are being filmed more or less at once. This is why it is possible to have only 6 months between releases. Probably almost all scenes will be filmed by the time the first film is released, and the rest will be tinkering and post-production. > Speculations: (1) The casting directions did not keep pace with the > script rewrite and she really is not in part 1. Quite possible. > (2) The scenes in part 1 > requiring cast members not yet in NZ or not yet cast, will be shot > later. Extremely likely. They will not assumble everyone at the Edoras set only for this one cameo. They will film this when they are ready to film everything else. > (3) the script is continuing to be rewritten and they are not > sure what to do with Eowyn yet. Since they have started shooting, I think we can assume the script is just about done. > As to my distress: > > Arwen is not just in parts 1 and 3 but part 2 as well? How can that > be? Does she come along with the Fellowship? Will it be the 10 walkers > versus the 9 Riders? Or will the add a Nazgul (named tiny time) just to > balance things out? Jackson specifically stated in an interview that she would NOT come along with the Fellowship. He did say that her roll would be enhanced, but would not specify exactly how. He did say that some of the story of her and Aragorn would be told in flashbacks. I think you can still find the interview at www.aint-it-cool-news.com > Are Aragorn and Arwen supposed to be sneaking off > during the day while the ring heads south to engage in a little snuggle > bunnies? How in the world does she get into part 2? (I mean, even if > she joins the Gray Company, that's not until part 3) No-one is sure. Keep in mind, however, that Elrond also appears in all three films, and that Aragorn can have a flashback at any time. Certainly Lorien must have brought back memories. > As to my delight: > > Well, I'm delighted that PJ has done a very close read of the books. > (Though Gandalf's arthritic knees had me puzzled.) Since "arthritis" is a modern-sounding term, it hopefully will not be used outside of the character profile. However, it is a pretty good explanation for what ails Gandalf. He has something that causes him to walk hunched over with knees bent much of the time, leaning on a staff. And yet, in times of emergency, he is capable of standing up straight, walking normally, and even running. Of course, you could assume that Gandalf is just pretending to be old and decrepit, but I don't think that was what Tolkien intended. The best explanation is that he can walk normally, but is discouraged from doing so by the resulting pain. > And finally for Gimli: > > WINE, WOMEN and SONG????!!!!! > > Woah! There must have been some party at Rivendell after Frodo and Sam > left that night! Do you think Gimli was hitting on all the elf chicks > later in the evening? Maybe he got together an orgy that Merry and > Pippin joined. Hey, I'll bet this was in the Red Book all along, but > Tolkien, being rather delicate about the matter, edited it out when he > did the translation! Way to go Gimli! Woo-Hoo! The expression may be more intended to give an idea of the type of person Jackson thinks Gimli is than a description of what he actually gets to do in the film. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if we got to see him making an irreverend pass at every female he runs into. I would still hope that his tone becomes much more reverend when he meets Galadriel, indicating how completely he has been floored. -- John Whelan ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Arwen And Eowyn in movie Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:45:19 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <6uoge6ygsx.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <19991010210020.16252.00000796@ng-fg1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.dc.2b.0e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 24 Oct 1999 15:39:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail John Whelan wrote: > > >On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Paul S. Person wrote: > >> I do like the original _Dracula_, despite the ending, but that's just >> the power of Bela Lugosi. _Dracula: Dead and Loving It_ is my >> candidate for "best remake" (of the Lugosi version). > >I agree about "Dead & Loving It". Despite being a spoof, it actually >still worked pretty well as a horror film, and showed alot of appreciation >for the material. I had heard mediocre reviews for it, and was very >surprised by how much I liked it. While buying all of Mel Brook's films and reading the reviews in Maltin, I came to the conclusion that "the reviewers" don't like most Mel Brooks films because _Blazing Saddles_ and (especially) _Young Frankenstein_ were so good that they find the others disappointing. This is why the phrase "not as funny as it should" appears frequently in reviews. In fact, some of the later films are quite good, although some are not. I was pleasantly surprised not only by _Dracula: Dead and Loving It_ but also by _Spaceballs_ and _Robin Hood: Men in Tights_ (which was a _lot_ better than I expected it to be, and certainly better than the Costner version). _Life Stinks_ was also much better than expected, but for me it only works as a satire about lawyers and tycoons (it was blasted for satirizing street people, or, at least, trying to make their lives look pleasant). I don't think any of them are as good as _Young Frankenstein_ or _Blazing Saddles_, though. >For me, at least, that also helped it work as a spoof. Comic relief works >best when the gags are set against a backbone of real tension. "Airplane" >worked because the gags were set against the background of a truly tense >classic suspense plot. Indeed. >But this is just about the only horror spoof I have seen that was wise >enough to allow the villain to remain at least a little scary. Yep. I might nominate _The Fearless Vampire Killers_, but you may have had that one in mind, or you may have a different opinion.