From: inkliing@aol.com (Inkliing) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: OT: copyright Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Sep 1999 03:59:27 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail i just finished my first book! i know that some of you here have writing and publishing experience, and i'm worried about copyright stuff. what keeps someone from just taking the book, putting their name on it, and publishing it themselves. for example, suppose i send it to an editor or someone, but some other less-than-honorable person gets their hands on it. like maybe someone who just happens to see it lying on someone's desk or some agent or printer or what not. anyone could put their name on it. how can i ever prove it's mine? i probably sound a little paranoid, but understand that this book is VERY important to me. i put so much sweat and energy into it. i'd just die if i got screwed somehow. i want to make copies and send them off to various publishers, editors, agents, and what not, but i'm afraid of making a stupid mistake and allowing someone to steal it. according to what's-his-name's 'self-publisher's manual' (that guy with the parachute book), a writer doesn't have to register a work with the u.s. copyright office, as an author automatically owns the copyrights to his or her own work. but that's just the legalities which apply to selling rights, contracts, etc. but registering a work with the copyright office doesn't protect one against someone stealing the text and publishing it under their own name. i know this since i called the copyright office and they say that they only record the author and title in their system, not the actual text. so, how do you keep someone from stealing your work?? thanks in advance for your informitive responses. O.L. ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: copyright Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Sep 1999 04:33:45 GMT References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990928003345.19608.00003236@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!peerfeed.news.psi.net!nntp.psi.com!newsrouter.icnc.com!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Okay, first, just a little trick, an informal copyrighting thing in the random case of someone taking you to court. Mail it to yourself in a sealed envelope. Do not open the thing when it gets to you, just leave it in a drawer. That way, you have a US postmark on it ahead of the date of the thief. Now, stop being paranoid. No one is going to steal your book. No one has time for it. Feel lucky if they even read the slushpile mss. We all feel like our books are our babies and no one has ever written such fine material. Except the poor underpaid schmuck who has to sift through piles of these "babies" every day. Being paranoid will only alienate these people, and their response will be "grow up." Don't do simultaneous submissions. Don't seek an agent until you have a sale and need a contract negotiated -- the good ones won't deal with you until you do, and you don't want the ones who will deal with you. Never pay an agent up front (some legit ones charge reading fees -- more than used to -- but their main fees are still commissions; they don't get paid 'til they sell your stuff). Always call the publisher's office (or try the website) and find the name of the correct editor for the imprint you're submitting to, and query for any submission guidelines. In your letter, use capitals as well as lower case, and watch your grammar. Good luck. To get strength, go to the library and check out some of the books in the writing section, which list famous people who've been rejected, or Great Novels that were rejected for silly reasons. Everyone goes through it. --- FernWithy ###### Message-ID: <37F04336.9702954@swipnet.se> From: "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: copyright References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.47.151 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 938492725 212.151.47.151 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:25:25 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:25:25 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-61096@d212-151-47-151.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:25:26 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Inkliing wrote: > so, how do you keep someone from stealing your work?? thanks in advance for > your informitive responses. If you want to be really paranoid about this (and, honestly, you ought not to be if you deal with reputable agents and editors) ... print out a copy and get a public notary to witness and sign off on it when you put it in a sealed envelope. Then stick it in a safe place. A simpler method is sending a copy of the thing to yourself via authorized mail and leaving it closed, but this one sounds dubious to me as holding firmly if it becomes a legal matter. There might be some way to get the package entered into some permanent record with the postal service, I suppose, which could help a little. -- [Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter] "And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-" "Yes?" "I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_) Elio M. García, Jr. (elio@swipnet.se) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: OT: copyright Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sptoa$tk_024@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 47 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:20:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938506850 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:20:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:20:50 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com>, inkliing@aol.com (Inkliing) wrote: >i just finished my first book! i know that some of you here have writing and >publishing experience, and i'm worried about copyright stuff. > >what keeps someone from just taking the book, putting their name on it, and >publishing it themselves. for example, suppose i send it to an editor or >someone, but some other less-than-honorable person gets their hands on it. like >maybe someone who just happens to see it lying on someone's desk or some agent >or printer or what not. anyone could put their name on it. how can i ever prove >it's mine? The publishing industry would have been shut down if this sort of fear were rationally based on reality. Although it is said there were instances of such theft many years ago, there is no editor or agent who would stand to gain anything by such an act. So many people are trying to break into the publishing biz these days that it's totally unnecessary to pass off someone else's work as one's own. There is simply no economic incentive (and rather stiff legal and economic deterrants, such as the fact that no one would ever want to work with such an editor or agent again) for anyone to do that sort of thing. >according to what's-his-name's 'self-publisher's manual' (that guy with the >parachute book), a writer doesn't have to register a work with the u.s. >copyright office, as an author automatically owns the copyrights to his or her >own work. but that's just the legalities which apply to selling rights, >contracts, etc. but registering a work with the copyright office doesn't >protect one against someone stealing the text and publishing it under their own >name. i know this since i called the copyright office and they say that they >only record the author and title in their system, not the actual text. The difference between registering and not registering a copyright comes down to what sort of penalties will be applicable when someone has stolen your PUBLSHED work (copyright theft in the print industry seems to deal only with published, and therefore economically viable, texts). It is entirely possible for person A to write a song that person B then recomposes years later. More than one court case has decided in favor of the original song writer. But books are an entirely different matter. People only seem to copy the published books. Until you see your book in print, you really don't need to be concerned. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: OT: copyright Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sptr4$tk_026@Org.xenite.org> References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> <37F04336.9702954@swipnet.se> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:21:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938506939 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:22:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:22:19 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <37F04336.9702954@swipnet.se>, "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." wrote: >Inkliing wrote: > >> so, how do you keep someone from stealing your work?? thanks in advance for >> your informitive responses. > > If you want to be really paranoid about this (and, honestly, you ought >not to be if you deal with reputable agents and editors) ... print out a >copy and get a public notary to witness and sign off on it when you put >it in a sealed envelope. Then stick it in a safe place. That trick has no legal standing in a court of law. > A simpler method is sending a copy of the thing to yourself via >authorized mail and leaving it closed, but this one sounds dubious to me >as holding firmly if it becomes a legal matter. There might be some way >to get the package entered into some permanent record with the postal >service, I suppose, which could help a little. There is no way to PREVENT someone else from stealing unpublished text, except to hide it where no one else will ever see it. Works are protected under the law as soon as they are created. No amount of mailing and notarizing is going to offer any greater protection. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### Message-ID: <37F0B515.A22E1301@swipnet.se> From: "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: copyright References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> <37F04336.9702954@swipnet.se> <7sptr4$tk_026@Org.xenite.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.42.3 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 938521882 212.151.42.3 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:31:22 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:31:22 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-61096@d212-151-42-3.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:31:17 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: > There is no way to PREVENT someone else from stealing unpublished text, > except to hide it where no one else will ever see it. Of course. The only way to make sure no one steals your TV is not to own one in the first place. Doesn't mean you should leave all the doors unlocked when you leave a house. > Works are protected under the law as soon as they are created. No amount > of mailing and notarizing is going to offer any greater protection. I think the problem, Michael, is that many cases start to get into the matter of who exactly created the work. If writer A sticks it in a dark place and never manages to sell it or get anyone but family members to look at it, they could stand a real chance to lose out to thief B who got it published and can get witnesses to support their claim as to the timing of it. Or so is my understanding. Getting witnesses to the sealing of a document strikes me as being the only way to be really able to prove that your finished a work when you say you did -- you've got a notarized chop for the date. It certainly wouldn't _hurt_ to do this. It may have no legal 'standing,' but I can't see many judges throwing it out as any sort of indicator. But your other post is dead-on. It's paranoid to assume that someone is going to steal your work. Especially if it's unpublished. Yeah, it could happen, but I suspect the odds are better for getting hit by a meteorite. -- [Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter] "And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-" "Yes?" "I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_) Elio M. García, Jr. (elio@swipnet.se) ###### From: "Tim Crews" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> Subject: Re: OT: copyright Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:44:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.216.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news.rdc1.az.home.com 938540647 24.1.216.12 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:44:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:44:07 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Inkliing wrote in message news:19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com... > i just finished my first book! i know that some of you here have writing and > publishing experience, and i'm worried about copyright stuff. > Orson Scott Card has written a short topic on the process for submitting SF work to publishers, etc. See http://www.hatrack.com/writingclass/lesson06.shtml -- Tim Crews timcrews@home.com ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: copyright Date: 29 Sep 1999 01:02:28 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 110 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uzoy6d4hn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Warning: this post contains some fairly hard stuff inkliing@aol.com (Inkliing) writes: > > i just finished my first book! Nice for you, mine is only in finished outline state. (OK, I do too much Usenetting and Website building :-)). > i know that some of you here have writing and > publishing experience, Writing yes, publishing only others reports (OK, I have had 2 publishers ask, if I would write for them on commission, but did not go through on it). > what keeps someone from just taking the book, putting their name on it, and > publishing it themselves. Possibly fear of legal trouble. Some are stopped by that, some not. Or moral force. Some react to that, others not. There exists no sure method of enforcing anything, bar living in an police state. And even that is only an illusion of safety. > maybe someone who just happens to see it lying on someone's desk or some agent > or printer or what not. anyone could put their name on it. how can i ever prov e > it's mine? By making it known. By having witnesses, who have seen you give then the text? > i probably sound a little paranoid, Yes. > i'd just die if i got screwed somehow. Bad idea to do that. Too much future to miss on :-). > as an author automatically owns the copyrights to his or her own work. That seems to be true in the US, since they entered the Berne convention. > name. i know this since i called the copyright office and they say that they > only record the author and title in their system, not the actual text. So thats fairly useless as witness. > so, how do you keep someone from stealing your work?? Give it away? As I have done: http://neil.franklin.ch/Underst_Computers (warning: that is 1MByte of ASCII outline, no final text) Actually the worst thing that can happen to you is not that someone wants to take your book, but that no one could care for it! There are over 1 mio books published very year. There are a few 100 mio readers. So thats perhaps 1000 sales per book. That is, assuming you ever make it into the 1 mio. Most likely no publisher will even want you (classic market: more offers than takers, gives low value). For experience with the publishing industry (by somewhone who has published twice) try this: http://photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/story.html The book behind the book behind the book..., by Philip Greenspun You should actually think about what is important to you in writing the book: a) expressing your self: that is already served by writing it b) telling the readers something: that is served best by giving it away. I have had over many 10'000 downloads (complete ones, some re-downloads after aborting and reading) not to mention the 2 publishers who both mentined it as reason they wanted me c) making money: that is better served done by finding an different job. There are more unpublished authors than there are actor wanabees working as waiters. Even if you get into the 1 mio you will only recieve an pidling few percent on the sales of a few hundreds of copies So do your writing an favour and spread it. It deserves it. And you will get recognition worth far more than the little bit of pocket money. Of course if you intend to live from writing, this will not work. In that case, I wish you well, you will need it. > thanks in advance for your informitive responses. Well I doubt you will like this enough to be thankfull. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### From: jmicha5059@aol.com (Jmicha5059) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: OT: copyright Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Sep 1999 13:41:43 GMT References: <19990927235927.19056.00003528@ng-ff1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990929094143.11144.00000082@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail All you have to do is register the work now with the copyright office. It costs about $20. You can get a form from the Library of Congress copyright office of the web in PDF format. Once you created the work it was de facto copyrighted. You don't even need to place a copyright notice on it. However, the safe method is just to register the copyright yourself and then there is no dispute later. When it is published, you may keep the copyright or transfer it to the publisher. Mike Williams tolkiencollector.com