From: kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elros's choice? Date: 24 Sep 1999 01:46:37 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, LSU, Baton Rouge Lines: 8 Message-ID: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oldbit.csc.lsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!gatech!juniper.cis.uab.edu!cis.uab.edu!news.lsu.edu!kuo Is there any explanation for Elros's choice? For that matter, are there any stories concerning him directly at all? -- _____ Isaac Kuo kuo@bit.csc.lsu.edu http://www.csc.lsu.edu/~kuo __|_)o(_|__ ICQ 29055726 /___________\ "Mari-san... Yokatta... \=\)-----(/=/ ...Yokatta go-buji de..." - Karigari Hiroshi ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:53:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938148806 207.224.147.102 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:53:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:53:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >Is there any explanation for Elros's choice? For that matter, >are there any stories concerning him directly at all? He liked Men better than Elves, apparently. And, no, there really aren't any stories per se. About all we can do is guess at what he was able to accomplish. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: 24 Sep 1999 05:21:06 GMT Organization: Department of Computer Science, LSU, Baton Rouge Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7sf1o2$15a6$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: oldbit.csc.lsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!gatech!juniper.cis.uab.edu!cis.uab.edu!news.lsu.edu!kuo In article <7sf03s$3pg_002@org.xenite.org>, Michael Martinez wrote: >In article <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, >kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >>Is there any explanation for Elros's choice? For that matter, >>are there any stories concerning him directly at all? >He liked Men better than Elves, apparently. And, no, there really aren't >any stories per se. About all we can do is guess at what he was able to >accomplish. I suspected that, and I'm saddenned to hear my guess confirmed. It seems to me that the story of Elros could have made a story just as touching as that of Beren or Turin. It also would have affected the story of Arwen poignantly, because Elrond would no doubt have been able to relate his loss of her with his loss of Elros. -- _____ Isaac Kuo kuo@bit.csc.lsu.edu http://www.csc.lsu.edu/~kuo __|_)o(_|__ ICQ 29055726 /___________\ "Mari-san... Yokatta... \=\)-----(/=/ ...Yokatta go-buji de..." - Karigari Hiroshi ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sf35e$3pg_052@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@org.xenite.org> <7sf1o2$15a6$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 32 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:45:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.102 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938151927 207.224.147.102 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:45:27 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 00:45:27 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed01.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <7sf1o2$15a6$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >In article <7sf03s$3pg_002@org.xenite.org>, >Michael Martinez wrote: >>In article <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, >>kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: >>>Is there any explanation for Elros's choice? For that matter, >>>are there any stories concerning him directly at all? > >>He liked Men better than Elves, apparently. And, no, there really aren't >>any stories per se. About all we can do is guess at what he was able to >>accomplish. > >I suspected that, and I'm saddenned to hear my guess confirmed. > >It seems to me that the story of Elros could have made a story >just as touching as that of Beren or Turin. It also would have >affected the story of Arwen poignantly, because Elrond would no >doubt have been able to relate his loss of her with his loss of >Elros. Tolkien might eventually have gotten around to it, but I guess he had other priorities. The character of Elrond is not very well-developed, although he crops up all over the place. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 02:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 45 Message-ID: <29014-37EC6F11-26@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7sf35e$3pg_052@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAs6tNQ/yPRPcjfFzbI6DXvpwON0ACFQCX74Y29LYu01K19ia2eDfhfe6nPg== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >The character of Elrond is not very >well-developed, although he crops up all >over the place. I have some ideas about this, but I may be wrong. My theories, if you will, are probably either corroborated or refuted in the texts presented in the HoME series. Unfortunatly, the only volume in that series which I have a copy of is III, The Lays of Beleriand, which of course is little help in this discussion. So I may be wrong in some of the points which I am about to present. I'm guessing that Elrond was one of several elements which Tolkien placed in The Hobbit which loosly connected it to his legends of the Elder Days. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about; the references to Gondolin and the divisions of the elven peoples (at least an early conception of it anyway). Of course that would depend on the character of Elrond having been in existence BEFORE Tolkien wrote The Hobbit. I surmise from my knowledge of the HoME series that he would be have to be present in the texts presented in BoLT II or vol V (The Lost Road? I don't know the titles of some of the HoME books very well.) If this is true that would mean that Elrond was another connection. Naturally, by the final drafts of LoTR, Elrond's history had been fairly well established. I suppose Elrond exists to provide a form of continuity in the overall history. Now while Elrond was born in the First Age, most of his life in ME is during the Second and Third Ages. Most of Tolkien's writing on the Third Age seem directly connected to LotR, besides The Hobbit and LotR themselves, most of the writings on the Third Age seem to concern themselves with the history of the West -- most specifically the realms of the Dunedain. The only other writings I can think of (mostly stuff from UT) concern events immediatly preceding LotR itself. As for the Second Age, it is my impression that is is the least detailed of all the Ages of ME, which is ironic, considering that it is the longest Age. Most of the history of the Second Age concerns itself with the Rings of Power and N=FAmenor. Elrond does have a part in these histories, but it is mostly about the founding of Rivendell. I'm guessing that since Tolkien had a pretty firm idea about Elrond's history, he concentrated on other ideas which weren't as firmly developed, rather than expand and add depth to Elrond's backstory. After all, he spent the last years of his life trying to finish the Silmarillion, and Elrond doesn't play a very large part in the history of the First Age. ###### From: Gregory Graham Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:20:18 -0500 Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Lines: 89 Message-ID: <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: d02ka.fnal.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!rohrpostix.uta4you.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info1.fnal.gov!newscli.fnal.gov!not-for-mail Hello all. Beyond any direct textual references, I think that the story of Elros and Elrond serves to illustrate a theme found many times in the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion : that of sundering and reunion. At the end of the first age when Elrond chose to be of elven kind and Elros chose to become of mankind, they were sundered from each other until beyond the end of the time. Elrond, even if slain, remains a part of this world. The spirit of Elros escapes the world upon his death, (ie - the gift of Men.) When Aragorn and Arwen were wed, there was a reunion of the two bloodlines. It would be interesting to elaborate upon the feelings of Elrond, who became sundered from his daughter but also bore witness to a family reunion of sorts. However, the episode also touches the theme of reuniting sundered "maleness" and "femaleness." Throughtout Tolkein's writings about Middle Earth, the Elves are represented as possessed of more female qualities; under- standing, healing, and preserving. Mankind is represented as having more male qualities; quarrelsome, impetuous, and quick to anger. For instance, the elves of Beleriand largely maintain a defensive posture towards Morgoth after the Siege of Maedhros was initiated. Narothrond, Gondolin, and Menegroth were all hidden kingdoms. (It was only when Turin came to Nargothrond that elves there eschewed their strategy of remaining in the background.) This is also evident in the elves' role in the LotR : The elves serve to give counsel, shelter, and provisions to the Nine Walkers. Finally, lest we didn't pick up on this aspect of the thematic role of Elves and Men, Tolkien contirives his story so that all of the unions between mankind and the elves involved a male mortal and a female elf. Thus the sundering of Elros and Elrond is also a sundering of "maleness" and "femaleness," and the union of Aragorn and Arwen is a reunion of these two qualities. There is a very serious message going on here : that neither state is "whole" by itself, and that a union is required. In the Ainulindale (I believe) it is stated that at the end of time all of the Children of Illuvatar, Elves and Men, female and male, Elrond and Elros, will gather together and sing the themes of Illuvatar as they were meant to be sung. In fact, I will go one step further and say that this reunion is a necessary step to be completed before the themes of Illuvatar can possibly be sung aright ! All voices are required. The specific theme of sundering and reunion of male and female occurs several times also in the LotR, sometimes with humorous effect. For instance, the Ents are so clueless about the necessity of the female role that they have "lost" the Entwives. Their reunion is actually left as an open question both as a pun to the more serious strands of this theme in Aragorn and Arwen and as a caution : the Ents are slowly disappearing ! Another humorous example is the bickering between elves and dwarves. (The dwarves, both by virtue of being mortal and warlike, can be considered "male." In case we are too dense to pick that up, Tolkein reminds us by presenting only male dwarvish characters, females of that kind being "rare".) This sundering of the elves and dwarves is healed in the LotR both by Gimli's friendship with Legolas and by Gimli's encounter with Galadriel. As usual, the more serious reconciliation comes between a male dwarf and a bona-fide female elf, Galadriel, lest we not pick up on the theme. Less seriously, Gimli and Legolas strike a bargain to do "male things on one weekend and female things on the next;" it sounds like my marriage ! -Greg Graham *********************************************************************** These views do not represent the views of the University of Maryland, the D0 collaboration, nor Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. These are my own views and I, Greg Graham, am solely responsible. OK, my butt's covered. *********************************************************************** Michael Martinez wrote: > In article <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu>, kuo@oldbit.csc.lsu.edu (Isaac Kuo) wrote: > >Is there any explanation for Elros's choice? For that matter, > >are there any stories concerning him directly at all? > > He liked Men better than Elves, apparently. And, no, there really aren't > any stories per se. About all we can do is guess at what he was able to > accomplish. > > -- > \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org > \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! > //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] > // \\ENITE.org............................................... -- ****************************************************************************** Greg Graham ggraham@fnal.gov University of Maryland DZero Collaboration 630-840-2321 ****************************************************************************** ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Webmaster@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7sj6hs$2g4_008@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sf35e$3pg_052@Org.xenite.org> <29014-37EC6F11-26@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 49 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:07:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.149.175 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938286482 207.224.149.175 (Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:08:02 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:08:02 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article <29014-37EC6F11-26@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: >I'm guessing that Elrond was one of several elements which Tolkien >placed in The Hobbit which loosly connected it to his legends of the >Elder Days. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about; the references to >Gondolin and the divisions of the elven peoples (at least an early >conception of it anyway). Of course that would depend on the character >of Elrond having been in existence BEFORE Tolkien wrote The Hobbit. I >surmise from my knowledge of the HoME series that he would be have to be >present in the texts presented in BoLT II or vol V (The Lost Road? I >don't know the titles of some of the HoME books very well.) If this is >true that would mean that Elrond was another connection. Naturally, by >the final drafts of LoTR, Elrond's history had been fairly well >established. I suppose Elrond exists to provide a form of continuity in >the overall history. Elrond was indeed borrowed from the earlier mythology. In fact, Elrond started out as an only child. > As for the Second Age, it is my impression that is is the least >detailed of all the Ages of ME, which is ironic, considering that it is >the longest Age. Most of the history of the Second Age concerns itself >with the Rings of Power and N=FAmenor. Elrond does have a part in these >histories, but it is mostly about the founding of Rivendell. Tolkien developed the Second Age history for THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Since those events were further removed from the War of the Ring than the events of the Third Age, and were not born of the First Age mythology, Tolkien didn't attend to them as much as to later matters. >I'm guessing that since Tolkien had a pretty firm idea about Elrond's >history, he concentrated on other ideas which weren't as firmly >developed, rather than expand and add depth to Elrond's backstory. >After all, he spent the last years of his life trying to finish the >Silmarillion, and Elrond doesn't play a very large part in the history >of the First Age. About all Tolkien knew of Elrond when he began working on THE LORD OF THE RINGS was that he was the son of Earendil and Elwing and that he was still hanging around at the time Bilbo showed up. Virtually everything after the War of Wrath was devised as a result of Tolkien's decision to use the sequel to THE HOBBIT to merge Bilbo's world with the world of the second mythology. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 18 Message-ID: <2763-37EDC69E-22@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <7sj6hs$2g4_008@Org.xenite.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRlhY+3SHqMA2gx3QGAsdhf5st1kgIVAMPS5336DAId1nDZg8DmaXVVwXfP Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Michael Martinez wrote: >About all Tolkien knew of Elrond when >he began working on THE LORD OF >THE RINGS was that he was the son of >Earendil and Elwing and that he was still >hanging around at the time Bilbo showed >up. Virtually everything after the War of >Wrath was devised as a result of >Tolkien's decision to use the sequel to >THE HOBBIT to merge Bilbo's world with >the world of the second mythology. Yes, that's what I thought. Thanks for backing me up. Like I said, I don't have much of HoME to rely on. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 129 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:29:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 938500190 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 01:29:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 01:29:50 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Gregory Graham : > However, the episode also touches the theme of reuniting sundered > "maleness" and "femaleness." Throughtout Tolkein's writings about > Middle Earth, the Elves are represented as possessed of more female > qualities; under- standing, healing, and preserving. Mankind is > represented as having more male qualities; quarrelsome, impetuous, > and quick to anger. A very interesting thesis, and quite possibly containing some truth... but I don't buy it (at least not much). I should say from the start, though, that I'm not precisely unbiased: I loathe the division of human characteristics into "masculine" and "feminine" (particularly when the division appears to favor one or the other, as your example above does). That said, I'll do what I can to address your thesis on its own merits. :) First of all, you mention that the Elves of Beleriand generally take a defensive attitude toward Morgoth. Now, that is true in many of the situations that we know of, but certainly not all. Feanor, as far as we can tell, never took a "female" action in his life: he seems to fit every single "male" trait that you list, and doesn't stack up well in any of the female traits (did he really "understand" other people?) He and his sons seem to be the ultimate exemplars of your "male" qualities. They're not just a lone exception: upon reaching Beleriand, the host of Fingolfin rode to Angband and pounded on the door: they were eager for a fight, and only Morgoth's silence turned them back. As far as I can tell, the only reason that they didn't press an attack (alone or with the Feanorians later on) was their understanding that attacking Angband was too much for them. Their policy of containment and siege was the most intense offense that they could reasonably think to achieve. The fall of Fingolfin was hardly an example of a desire for understanding and preservation. Don't forget, either, that the Battle of Unnumbered Tears was entirely instigated by the Elves, under the joint leadership of Maedhros and Fingon. By the time of the Third Age, the Elves do seem to have taken on more of a "feminine" role, so those examples do seem to hold up reasonably well, and there may be something to your thesis here. However, I would point out that the characteristics you associate with the feminine can just as easily be associated with the old, and similarly your masculine characteristics are typical of the young. (I tend to think that this is a far better way to name those groups of traits.) Now, the Elves are far older than the humans in the Third Age (both individually and as a people), so it's not just a literary device to expect them to exhibit the corresponding characteristics. Why seek a symbolic explanation for their behavior when there is a literal explanation plainly stated in the text? Even if we don't make an old/young distinction between the two races a priori, and simply assume that individuals have either your "female" or "male" personalities, it's clear that among humans the ratio will be about even in any generation (Darwin aside). Among Elves, the "male" personalities will get themselves killed off over the years, leaving only the "female" personalities behind. This provides a mechanism for the development of the old/young (or female/male) dichotomy that we see between Elves and humans in the Third Age. > Finally, lest we didn't pick up on this aspect of the thematic role > of Elves and Men, Tolkien contirives his story so that all of the > unions between mankind and the elves involved a male mortal and a > female elf. True... but I know of at least one _love_ between a male Elf and a female mortal: Andreth (of "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" fame, in _Morgoth's Ring_) loved and was loved by Aegnor, brother of Finrod and son of Finarfin. (The reasons that their union did not come to pass are given in the essay mentioned above.) > Thus the sundering of Elros and Elrond is also a sundering of > "maleness" and "femaleness," Why, if Tolkien was being so clear about the Elf/Man <--> Female/Male parallel as to contrive it so all the marriages fit the pattern, did he not take the simple step of making Elros the first Queen of Numenor? That would have required virtually no extra effort at all (while the male/female identities in the Elf/human unions were generally _tightly_ bound up with the surrounding stories). After all, we know that he wasn't adverse to the idea of Queens of Numenor: one showed up just a few generations later. > In the Ainulindale (I believe) it is stated that at the end of time > all of the Children of Illuvatar, Elves and Men, female and male, > Elrond and Elros, will gather together and sing the themes of > Illuvatar as they were meant to be sung. In fact, I will go one > step further and say that this reunion is a necessary step to be > completed before the themes of Illuvatar can possibly be sung > aright! All voices are required. From the "Ainulindale", version D, in _Morgoth's Ring_ (the corresponding text in _The Silmarillion_ can be found at the end of "Of the Beginning of Days" in the "Quenta Silmarillion", and is virtually identical except in point of view. Likewise for the variant version C* in _Morgoth's Ring_.): ["us" = Elves] Yet of old the Valar said unto us that Men shall join in the Second Music of th Ainur, whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it. There _is_ a line in all versions of the Ainulindale after the Lost Tale "The Music of the Ainur" that reads "...it has been said that a greater [music] still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days", or variants on that theme [this text from version B, in _The Lost Road_]. However, the Lost Tale reads "...by the choirs of both the Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End" instead. At the end of his commentary on the Lost Tale (repeated and referenced in _The Lost Road_), Christopher speculates that the change in this passage was "unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase", and was never noticed or corrected. At any rate, given one unambiguous statement and one unclear and dubious to boot, I'll go with the "no (guaranteed) Elves in the Second Music" position myself. Strange as it may seem, the Elves (and thus, your "female" side) don't seem to be a necessary part of the Second Music after all. Well, that came across as a resounding attack on your thesis. I didn't really mean it so, and I think that there may be seeds of merit there, but I believe that my concerns and objections are valid. In the end, my biggest question is why we must always paint these disagreements and dichotomies as male/female. It seems to me that old/young or even race/race are chasms just as deep, and just as important to find a way across as we seek a peaceful and happy coexistence. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: Michael@xenite.org (Michael Martinez) Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Organization: Xenite.Org: Worlds of Imagination on the Web Distribution: world Message-ID: <7spsgt$tk_010@Org.xenite.org> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 69 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:59:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.147.146 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 938505589 207.224.147.146 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 02:59:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 02:59:49 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net!Xenite In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >A very interesting thesis, and quite possibly containing some >truth... but I don't buy it (at least not much). I should say from >the start, though, that I'm not precisely unbiased: I loathe the >division of human characteristics into "masculine" and "feminine" >(particularly when the division appears to favor one or the other, as >your example above does). That said, I'll do what I can to address >your thesis on its own merits. :) > >First of all, you mention that the Elves of Beleriand generally take a >defensive attitude toward Morgoth. Now, that is true in many of the >situations that we know of, but certainly not all. Feanor, as far as >we can tell, never took a "female" action in his life: he seems to fit >every single "male" trait that you list, and doesn't stack up well in >any of the female traits (did he really "understand" other people?) >He and his sons seem to be the ultimate exemplars of your "male" >qualities. My initial reaction was to disagree with the thesis, but I think it has some applicable merit. If the story is cast in terms of "masculine" versus "feminine" qualities, the death of Feanor and the subsequent abdication by Maedhros in favor of the more even-tempered Fingolfin represents a "castration" (symbolically speaking -- not to infer this was Tolkien's intention). It is interesting to note that when Fingolfin himself arose in anger similar to Feanor's, he was destroyed (although he wounded Morgoth eight times). >They're not just a lone exception: upon reaching Beleriand, the host >of Fingolfin rode to Angband and pounded on the door: they were eager >for a fight, and only Morgoth's silence turned them back. As far as I >can tell, the only reason that they didn't press an attack (alone or >with the Feanorians later on) was their understanding that attacking >Angband was too much for them. Their policy of containment and siege >was the most intense offense that they could reasonably think to >achieve. The fall of Fingolfin was hardly an example of a desire for >understanding and preservation. Don't forget, either, that the Battle >of Unnumbered Tears was entirely instigated by the Elves, under the >joint leadership of Maedhros and Fingon. Fingolfin turned back out of prudence. Silence alone would not have deterred him. As you suggest, he simply realized he didn't have the wherewithal to open the gates of Angband and get down to Morgoth. The siege, however, was not an offensive action. The Noldor really had no idea of what to do. But they understood the peril of leaving Angband unwatched, so they established the siege. This decision was probably undertaken at Mereth Aderthad by Fingolfin, Cirdan, Finrod, and Maedhros. I doubt Turgon had anything really to do with it since he was not active in the siege. From that time forward the Noldor worked to increase their strength. Finrod and Turgon did this by establishing secret and well-defended cities where their people could flourish. Finrod also worked to integrate the Edain into Elven society, and both Fingolfin and Maedhros did the same. I suspect that Maedhros was the benefactor of the Edain of Estolad, who fled only when Maedhros' forces were defeated in the Dagor Bragollach. The Noldor were only moved to offensive action after Maedhros realized that Beren and Luthien had revealed a chink in Morgoth's armor. The Dark Lord could indeed be assailed even while he was on his throne, surrounded by his armies and greatest servants. Feanor's clearing of West Beleriand was the first offensive action undertaken by the Noldor; the Union of Maedhros' campaign was the second and last such defensive action. -- \\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web info@xenite.org \\// FREE! Watch Internet TV shows at Xenite.Org! //\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm] // \\ENITE.org............................................... ###### From: "Matt Atwood" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:16:19 -0400 Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA Lines: 40 Message-ID: <7sqm0c$lgo$1@news.duke.edu> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: res-152-16-233-165.dorm.duke.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!usenet Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... [snip] >Why, if Tolkien was being so clear about the Elf/Man <--> Female/Male >parallel as to contrive it so all the marriages fit the pattern, did >he not take the simple step of making Elros the first Queen of >Numenor? That would have required virtually no extra effort at all >(while the male/female identities in the Elf/human unions were >generally _tightly_ bound up with the surrounding stories). After >all, we know that he wasn't adverse to the idea of Queens of Numenor: >one showed up just a few generations later. [snip] > Steuard Jensen I have just one comment to make on that. While I think I agree with Steuard on most of his ideas, if Tolkien had made Elros Queen of Numenor, then all of his descendants would know that queens were valid choices for rulers, and so Silmarien would have been queen instead of her younger brother. Hence, no lords of Andunie. Thus Elendil has no claim at all to being the rightful heir to the throne of Numenor - not that Tolkien ever explicitly says he does, but he is the oldest child of the oldest child of ... of the oldest child of Elros Tar-Minyatur. So the same would be true with Aragorn - again, not that Tolkien ever says anything explicitly about that, but there is the sense that if the royal line were followed down through the centuries as it should have been followed, Aragorn would be king of Numenor. So I think there would have been some extra effort involved in that. Plus, if we're changing genders around, wouldn't Elros have to be male since he chose humanity, and Elrond female since he chose elf-ness? (Although I see your point, too, half-elf Elros has some elvish ("feminine") characteristics, so why not marry him to a male human?) I think that it may be educational to look at some general trends about the characters of different races, but you can't start looking too deeply. Each of JRRT's characters had his own particular personality, regardless of his race, and if there's one thing that's true, it's that all generalities are bad. :) -Matt ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:18:35 -0400 Lines: 128 Message-ID: <37F15ACF.B720236D@erols.com> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: FIuB/AiLQbFws5ZuW+Sv78rz+fwGnvShDKNczsyMQpo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 1999 00:52:59 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Gregory Graham wrote: > Hello all. Beyond any direct textual references, I think that the story > of Elros and Elrond serves to illustrate a theme found many times in the > Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion : that of sundering and reunion. > At the end of the first age when Elrond chose to be of elven kind and > Elros chose to become of mankind, they were sundered from each other > until beyond the end of the time. Elrond, even if slain, remains a part of > this world. Until the end of the world. Is it sure that Men and Elves won't be together in the afterlife? I find that very sad. > The spirit of Elros escapes the world upon his death, (ie - > the gift of Men.) When Aragorn and Arwen were wed, there was a reunion > of the two bloodlines. It would be interesting to elaborate upon the feelings > of Elrond, who became sundered from his daughter but also bore witness to > a family reunion of sorts. The LotR says Elrond and Arwen's parting was bitter. What more do you need > However, the episode also touches the theme of reuniting sundered "maleness" > and "femaleness." Not really. > Throughtout Tolkein's writings about Middle Earth, the > Elves are represented as possessed of more female qualities; under- > standing, healing, and preserving. So do the Dunedain. > Mankind is represented as having more > male qualities; quarrelsome, impetuous, and quick to anger. Sounds somewhat like Orcs. Men are stubborn, but I don't know of a place where a Man is quarrelsome for long. > For instance, > the elves of Beleriand largely maintain a defensive posture towards Morgoth > after the Siege of Maedhros was initiated. Yeah, 'cause they couldn't mount a better defense or offense without the Valar. > Narothrond, Gondolin, and > Menegroth were all hidden kingdoms. (It was only when Turin came to > Nargothrond that elves there eschewed their strategy of remaining in the > background.) Menegroth was Thingol's palace. His kingdom was Doriath. As to Turin, you saw what a mess of things he got them to do. > This is also evident in the elves' role in the LotR : The elves > serve to give counsel, shelter, and provisions to the Nine Walkers. Aren't you forgetting Legolas? > Finally, lest > we didn't pick up on this aspect of the thematic role of Elves and Men, Tolkien > contirives his story so that all of the unions between mankind and the elves > involved a male mortal and a female elf. Like Steuard said, the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth says all you need to know. > Thus the sundering of Elros and Elrond is also a sundering of "maleness" and > "femaleness," and the union of Aragorn and Arwen is a reunion of these two > qualities. There is a very serious message going on here : that neither state > is "whole" by itself, and that a union is required. The Elves and Men are whole by themselves. > In the Ainulindale (I believe) > it is stated that at the end of time all of the Children of Illuvatar, Elves and > Men, female and male, Elrond and Elros, will gather together and sing the > themes of Illuvatar as they were meant to be sung. In fact, I will go one step > further and say that this reunion is a necessary step to be completed before > the themes of Illuvatar can possibly be sung aright ! All voices are required. I don't buy it. > The specific theme of sundering and reunion of male and female occurs several > times also in the LotR, sometimes with humorous effect. For instance, the > Ents are so clueless about the necessity of the female role that they have "lost" > the Entwives. No, they disagreed. > Their reunion is actually left as an open question both as a pun to the > more serious strands of this theme in Aragorn and Arwen and as a caution : the > Ents are slowly disappearing ! Only if they're killed, and it's very hard to do that. > Another humorous example is the bickering between > elves and dwarves. (The dwarves, both by virtue of being mortal and warlike, can > be considered "male." In case we are too dense to pick that up, Tolkein reminds > us by presenting only male dwarvish characters, females of that kind being "rare".) They bicker 'cause they've had fights. > This sundering of the elves and dwarves is healed in the LotR both by Gimli's > friendship with Legolas and by Gimli's encounter with Galadriel. Not really. (I can imagine it, Legolas, "Hey, Dad! Meet Gimli, my best friend." his father, " AAAAAAAAAAAA!", Gimli, "Dad! Meet Legolas, my best friend.", Gloin, "AAAAAAAAAAA!") > As usual, the > more serious reconciliation comes between a male dwarf and a bona-fide female > elf, Galadriel, lest we not pick up on the theme. Less seriously, Gimli and Legolas > strike a bargain to do "male things on one weekend and female things on the next;" it > sounds like my marriage ! No, it doesn't, and, no, they don't. Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> <7sqm0c$lgo$1@news.duke.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 18 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 21:08:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 938552888 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:08:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:08:08 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth "Matt Atwood" : > Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... > >Why, if Tolkien was being so clear about the Elf/Man <--> > >Female/Male parallel as to contrive it so all the marriages fit the > >pattern, did he not take the simple step of making Elros the first > >Queen of Numenor? > Plus, if we're changing genders around, wouldn't Elros have to be > male since he chose humanity, and Elrond female since he chose > elf-ness? Whoops! :) Looks like I blew it in this step. Yes, of course, Elrond would have to have been the female one for the point I was trying to make to work out. As it was, he was already stuck as a male because of _The Hobbit_. Given that, I humbly withdraw this particular element of my argument. I don't think that damages the rest too much, though. Thanks for the correction. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:50:09 -0400 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <37F2271A.C3403F01@erols.com> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> <7sqm0c$lgo$1@news.duke.edu> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: kpWuJnGYAao4tz2zN8zq6MrTk9ivZ17OB+YEdlGyJDM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 1999 21:02:04 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Matt Atwood wrote: > Thus Elendil has no claim at all to being the rightful > heir to the throne of Numenor - not that Tolkien ever explicitly says he > does, but he is the oldest child of the oldest child of ... of the oldest > child of Elros Tar-Minyatur. So the same would be true with Aragorn - > again, not that Tolkien ever says anything explicitly about that, but there > is the sense that if the royal line were followed down through the centuries > as it should have been followed, Aragorn would be king of Numenor. No, he wouldn't be around. Different timeline, different marrages, different people. > -Matt Lúthien Tinúviel/Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight See, I know where I am, and where I want to go, I've got angels to show me the way! ###### From: Gregory Graham Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:27:58 -0500 Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Lines: 123 Message-ID: <37F2926C.A81410B1@fnal.gov> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: d02ka.fnal.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en CC: ggraham@fnal.gov Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info1.fnal.gov!newscli.fnal.gov!not-for-mail Hi ! Thank you (all) for your replies. I was beginning to worry - my original post had been sitting there for a few days. Steuard Jensen wrote: >A very interesting thesis, and quite possibly containing some >truth... but I don't buy it (at least not much). I should say from >the start, though, that I'm not precisely unbiased: I loathe the >division of human characteristics into "masculine" and "feminine" >(particularly when the division appears to favor one or the other, as >your example above does). and >Well, that came across as a resounding attack on your thesis. I >didn't really mean it so, and I think that there may be seeds of merit >there, but I believe that my concerns and objections are valid. In >the end, my biggest question is why we must always paint these >disagreements and dichotomies as male/female. It seems to me that >old/young or even race/race are chasms just as deep, and just as >important to find a way across as we seek a peaceful and happy >coexistence. No problem ! Let me respond. Just to be clear, let me begin by saying that when I speak of "male" and "female," I am speaking of gender roles, and not sex differences; or as Steuard says, "the division of human characteristics into 'masculine' and 'feminine,'" and not merely anatomical divisions of people into "M" and "F." This division, which I too am sometimes uncomfortable with, nonetheless has a long and distinguishable history in human affairs; and especially literature. Tolkien begins his opus with such a division in the Valaquenta : when Tolkien describes how each valar chose to appear "male" or "female" (sex) based upon their temperments (gender), he is describing a division of human characteristics into "male" and "female." Furthermore, these divisions roughly follow the divisions that exist in our own culture and literature and mythology. Now Tolkien could have written the Simarillion so that the Valar had no gender and no sex, but I think that this would strike nearly everyone as strange and unfamiliar at best. Instead, the gardener (Yavanna), the dreamer (Lorien), and the weeper (Nienor) are all female; the elements (Mandos, Ulmo), the horselord (Orome), and the strong-guy (Tulkas) are all male. So what does this establish ? Tolkien is aware of gender roles, is aware of the difference between gender and sex, and has given these roles a fundamental place in his mythology. If he didn't give these things prominence in his mythology, then the mythology would seem artificial. Let me address another of Steuard's points above : Why does the division make one uncomfortable ? For me in real life, such divisions make me uncomfortable for two reasons : (A) Gender roles that people take on do not often match their sex. (B) People in real life are often judged (unfairly) by their gender roles. However, being aware of this, I can get past it. For instance, I'm an avid flower gardener and I'm not a tough-guy; and I don't care what the average beer-swilling jerk on the street has to say about it. ('Nuff said.) But gender roles operate differently in literature. Ie - gender roles provide a framework for the classic separation and reunion story. And it's not __always__ about gender/sex differences, I just think that the gender angle is one of many in Tolkien's work. I also think that, far from raising one gender role above the other, the very structure of the narrative seems to say that a union is necessary : neither is complete without the other. So why would Tolkien put all this in ? It makes his mythology seem more natural, yes. Tolkien was obviously well versed in many mythologies. All of the pagan mythologies have male and female gods. But why ? I like to think that Tolkien asked this very question about the mythologies. Perhaps Tolkien wrote his mythology in such a way as to __explain__ the existence of gender roles in terms of separation and reunion. He has certainly already written his mythology so as to "explain" other mythologies; as if other logically inconsistent mythologies were really in some sense faint echoes of his own logically consistent super-mythology. ( There's a reason why he never finished ...) I think it is Tolkien's modus operandi to attempt such a grandiose objective : the "why" of gender through a logically consistent mythology. So I'm really saying the opposite of above : the classic separation and reunion story in Tolkien's mythology is nothing less than his tool to explain gender as that which needs to be re-united. Now I've briefly addressed what I think Tolkien put in, how it operates in literature, and why I think Tolkien did it. The only question left is : is there actually a classic separation and reunion story represented by unions of Elves (female) and Men (male) ? I will not reiterate the evidence I gave in my previous posting because I don't want to be responsible for the readers' eyes getting tired :-) But I will address certain points. Several counterexamples were presented that demonstrate "male" gender roles on the part of the Elves. Sure - to make the story go forward, the Elves indeed go to war. To make it seem natural to us, the Elves have to assume both gender roles at times. Like Matt Atwood says in this branch : > I think that it may be educational to look at some general trends about >the characters of different races, but you can't start looking too deeply. >Each of JRRT's characters had his own particular personality, regardless of >his race, and if there's one thing that's true, it's that all generalities >are bad. :) And conversly, a good author, when writing about generalities, will "mix it up a little." But I think it is no accident that Tolkien chose male (sex) Mortals to wed the female (sex) immortals : Tolkien was deftly using sex the differences to underline the differing gender roles of the two kindreds (which is very clever when you think about it.) The weddings represent unions - Aragorn with Arwen, Elros with Elrond, as strange as that sounds. But not so strange seeming when so well written into the narrative structure. It's good to remember how long Tolkien spent working on all of this. He made no small plans. -Greg Graham *********************************************************************** These views do not represent the views of the University of Maryland, the D0 collaboration, nor Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. These are my own views and I, Greg Graham, am solely responsible. OK, my butt's covered. ********************************************************************* -- ****************************************************************************** Greg Graham ggraham@fnal.gov University of Maryland DZero Collaboration 630-840-2321 ****************************************************************************** ###### From: Gregory Graham Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:28:14 -0500 Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Lines: 90 Message-ID: <37F2927D.B28B4330@fnal.gov> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> <37F15ACF.B720236D@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d02ka.fnal.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en CC: ggraham@fnal.gov Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info1.fnal.gov!newscli.fnal.gov!not-for-mail ( Agreeing with Ojevind : ) Don't be sad ! Although Elvish spirits must await the end of time in the halls of Mandos, and the spirits of Mankind depart to we know not where, it is said in the Ainulindale that all of the Children of Illuvatar (Elves and Men) will come together with the Ainur to sing a Second Music in which the themes of Illuvatar will be sung "aright" at the end of time. (Thanks to S. Jensen for making this more clear in another branch of this thread - as usual I don't have the Sil in front of me. It's not part of the crap I drag to work everyday ... ) S. Jensen wrote in another branch : >There _is_ a line in all versions of the Ainulindale after the Lost >Tale "The Music of the Ainur" that reads "...it has been said that a >greater [music] still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of >the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days", or >variants on that theme [this text from version B, in _The Lost Road_]. >However, the Lost Tale reads "...by the choirs of both the Ainur and >the sons of Men after the Great End" instead. At the end of his >commentary on the Lost Tale (repeated and referenced in _The Lost >Road_), Christopher speculates that the change in this passage was >"unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase", and was >never noticed or corrected. However, I __would__ be sad if Steuard and C.T. are right - that the Elves are indeed left out of the Second Music. So I speculate the other way; call it Reform Tolkeinism :-) But I can't resist making one more remark, tenuous as the Void, supporting my view of the role of Elves and Mankind in the narrative as loosely corresponding to gender roles - Elves go to the Halls of Mandos after they are slain because their fate is bound up with the fate of the earth ... "Mother" Earth ... -Greg PS - And by the way, isn't the Ainulidale (Music of the Ainur) a masterpiece ? Much better than Genesis. The book, not the band. (groan....) *********************************************************************** These views do not represent the views of the University of Maryland, the D0 collaboration, nor Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. These are my own views and I, Greg Graham, am solely responsible. OK, my butt's covered. ********************************************************************* "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Ermanna hath written: > > >Gregory Graham wrote: > > > >> Hello all. Beyond any direct textual references, I think that the > story > >> of Elros and Elrond serves to illustrate a theme found many times in the > >> Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion : that of sundering and reunion. > >> At the end of the first age when Elrond chose to be of elven kind and > >> Elros chose to become of mankind, they were sundered from each other > >> until beyond the end of the time. Elrond, even if slain, remains a part > of > >> this world. > > > > Until the end of the world. Is it sure that Men and Elves won't > > be together in the afterlife? I find that very sad. > > In "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", when Aragorn tells Arwen that he is > going to die, she says that if death really is "the Gift of the One to Men, > then it is bitter to receive". To that Aragorn answers: "So it seems. (...) > In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound for ever > to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." > So Tolkien does seem to promise a final reunion of all thinking and good > beings somewhere beyond. > > Öjevind > -- -- ****************************************************************************** Greg Graham ggraham@fnal.gov University of Maryland DZero Collaboration 630-840-2321 ****************************************************************************** ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <7sf03s$3pg_002@Org.xenite.org> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> <37F15ACF.B720236D@erols.com> Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.36.49 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 938630987 212.151.36.49 (Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:49:47 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:49:47 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-36-49.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:49:56 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Ermanna hath written: >Gregory Graham wrote: > >> Hello all. Beyond any direct textual references, I think that the story >> of Elros and Elrond serves to illustrate a theme found many times in the >> Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion : that of sundering and reunion. >> At the end of the first age when Elrond chose to be of elven kind and >> Elros chose to become of mankind, they were sundered from each other >> until beyond the end of the time. Elrond, even if slain, remains a part of >> this world. > > Until the end of the world. Is it sure that Men and Elves won't > be together in the afterlife? I find that very sad. In "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", when Aragorn tells Arwen that he is going to die, she says that if death really is "the Gift of the One to Men, then it is bitter to receive". To that Aragorn answers: "So it seems. (...) In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." So Tolkien does seem to promise a final reunion of all thinking and good beings somewhere beyond. Öjevind -- ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> <37F2926C.A81410B1@fnal.gov> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 55 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 04:15:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 938664932 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:15:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:15:32 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Quoth Gregory Graham : > ...the gardener (Yavanna), the dreamer (Lorien), and the weeper > (Nienor) are all female; the elements (Mandos, Ulmo), the horselord > (Orome), and the strong-guy (Tulkas) are all male. So what does > this establish ? Actually, the dreamer (Lorien) was male, the brother of Mandos. [Also, I think you meant "Aule" when you said "Mandos", as Aule could be said to represent the element "Earth" while Mandos "represents" death as much as anything.] What does this establish? Perhaps that the gender roles aren't quite as clear cut (or at least, not quite as traditional) as one might think. :) As for the rest of your comments, you make good points: gender roles in literature probably are allowed to be a bit more straightforward than they are in real life (and certainly so in mythology!). Tolkien certainly knew what he was doing when he used them, and I agree that we should take those differences seriously. Nevertheless, I still see "age roles" or "generation roles" as being a better match to the Elf-Man dichotomy than gender roles are. After all, each of the three unions of Elves and Men was between an old Elf and a much younger Man. Why would the consitent gender difference be more important than the consistent age difference? Together with the fact that the Elves' "male" characteristics wane as they age over the many years, this seems to be an awfully convincing argument for age as the determining factor; gender just doesn't fit as well. And if age differences already explain the differences between the races (_and_ the differences between the Elven race at different times), why should we decide to also explain them with gender? > ...the classic separation and reunion story in Tolkien's mythology > is nothing less than his tool to explain gender as that which needs > to be re-united. Again, my biggest concern here is that the Silmarillion gives no guarantee that the "genders" _will_ ever be reunited after the end of the world. (How's that for separation?) It's clearly stated that humans will be involved in the Second Music, but it's fairly clear that the Elves will _not_. (Or, at least, if they will, then Eru had some reason for hiding that fact while _not_ hiding the humans' participation.) In fact, the possibility and purpose of a reunion _after_ the Second Music are discussed by Finrod and Andreth in the "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" (in _Morgoth's Ring_); they come to a guess that there would be one and at its purpose, but it was by no means a firm conclusion. This _could_ be read as Tolkien's expression of the need for a reunion, but if he really was certain of it, why not just say so as he did for so many other things? Steuard Jensen ###### From: Gregory Graham Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elros's choice? Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 06:24:02 -0500 Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory Lines: 99 Message-ID: <37F34852.27F27DDF@fnal.gov> References: <7sel5t$1ira$1@its1.ocs.lsu.edu> <37ECF642.219F09EA@fnal.gov> <37F2926C.A81410B1@fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: d02ka.fnal.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-SGI [en] (X11; I; IRIX64 6.5 IP27) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!info1.fnal.gov!newscli.fnal.gov!not-for-mail Well, if nothing else, you've convinced me to go out and buy Morgoth's Ring ! But also, you make a good point about aging. However I can't quite figure out what Tolkien could be saying about aging using immortals as a plot device since aging quite obviously means something quite different to immortals than to us mortals - unless it is a reunion of wisdom and naivete, perhaps. I have to do a lot of reading before I decide whether or not Elve and Men reunited at the Second Music. I believe they are (reasons in another branch of this thread...) based on the Silmarillion as it was published; but if the phrase "Children of Illuvatar" is indeed an accidental replacement for "Sons of Men", then it may be that after the union of Aragorn and Arwen, the departure of the Elves, and the dawning of the age of Men - that both gender roles are carried on in Mankind from then on. Thanks for your comments ! It always bugs me that Tolkien appears in the SF/Fantasy section and not in the literature section. -Greg Graham *********************************************************************** These views do not represent the views of the University of Maryland, the D0 collaboration, nor Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. These are my own views and I, Greg Graham, am solely responsible. OK, my butt's covered. *********************************************************************